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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 05:42 PM
Original message
Gun control research assistance
Hello "Guns" readers/posters. I'm asking for help in evaluating citizen attitudes about the 2nd Amendment and the on-going controversy about gun ownership and control.
Disclosure: I'm researching the topic to help clarify the positions of a candidate for the US House; district and party are not important; goal is an overview of what people on all sides think .
I've just started reading this Topic in DU, and assume that there are other websites which could help fill in the "broad view." Many thanks for any links, comments on this thread. BTW, I'm pretty neutral on this; I'm aware of how complex the interpretation of the 2nd can be and have formed no hard opinions. Some of my best friends are collectors...:)
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Americans love their guns more than they love their Jesus.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Because Jesus is too unreliable. Sometimes you pull the trigger and nothing happens.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. I'm not exactly sure what my beliefs are...
Edited on Mon Apr-07-08 06:12 PM by Jack_DeLeon
but I'm fairly open minded, and as such I think it could be possible that once we die we may simply cease to exist. If that is the case why shouldt I use whatever means possible to protect myself and those I care about.

Given the history of this world I dont see how people who consider themselvs athiests or agnostics can logically support pacificsm, or be opposed to having an effective means of self defense.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. You may need to be more specific
about the type of data you are looking for.

Are you looking for technical info about guns? Technical info about gun laws?
Are you looking for research showing how much/little the general population knows about guns and/or gun laws?
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Big Al Mac Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Try Google with poll second ammendment
And then look for statistically valid polls such as this:
Gallup 2nd Ammendment Poll
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russ1943 Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
5. Read the amici briefs, not internet discussion boards.
"I'm asking for help in evaluating citizen attitudes about the 2nd Amendment and the on-going controversy about gun ownership and control."


Citizen’s attitudes, as someone else suggested, can probably best be evaluated by reviewing the more respected polls and surveys. One poll that concerns itself with this subject http://www.norc.org/channels.
The National Science Foundation (NSF) began supporting the General Social Survey in the early 1970’s and has continued to do so with a grant to the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) in 2005 to complete the 2006 and 2008 surveys.
http://www.norc.org/publications/public+attitudes+towards+the+regulation+of+firearms.htm

In one important way you are in luck. You are inquiring about a subject that is currently at its peak in the legal community. A the case that started out at the District Court went to the District Court of Appeals and has now been heard by the US Supreme Court.
I say you are in luck because of the wealth of information (amici briefs) readily available from both sides of this issue.

The Gura & Possessky law firm (Alan Gura is the lead counsel for Heller), has an excellent website @ http://dcguncase.com/blog/case-filings/ .
Broadly speaking;
Amici briefs for Respondent (Heller) lists almost 50 groups/organizations who generally think the DC laws are too restrictive.
Amici briefs for Petitioner (DC & Mayor) about 20.groups/organizations who generally think the DC laws are appropriate.

Having more briefs is usually better, but it doesn’t make their reasoning better or more correct.
The point is, whatever you want to know about the 2nd Amendment can be found in those approximately 70 briefs. This is to your or anyone’s benefit, who really want to understand this on-going controversy.


Important;
Pay little to no attention to discussion boards on the internet, including this one, on this subject.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. excellent advice
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. I wrote this after the 2004 loss, and I think it was largely vindicated in 2006.
Edited on Thu Apr-03-08 07:22 AM by benEzra
Executive summary--the gun issue is NOT about hunting. The discussion downthread at the link below may also be helpful.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=97165

Some of you may know me as a regular on the Common Ground Common Sense forum, formerly the JK forum. Shortly after the election, I pulled a lot of thoughts together into one document about how the party might stop alienating gun owners so badly. Please read it with an open mind, and post any feedback you'd like. For those of you who hate guns, it may at least help you understand where gun owners like my wife and I are coming from. Thanks!

--benEzra


Democrats and the gun issue: Now what?

First, let me say that I'm a gun owner. Second, I don't hunt.

To some of you, that automatically makes me wierd. After all, aren't most gun owners hunters? Isn't hunting the main reason law-abiding Americans own guns? And aren't hunting guns what most American gun owners are so protective of?

Well--no. And it's this misunderstanding may have just cost the Democratic party another national election. But please hear me out.

After the 2000 election, when Al Gore lost his home state of Tennessee and pro-union West Virginia--and consequently the White House--over the gun issue, the gun-control group Americans for Gun Safety counseled Democrats that if the party made its support for hunting and hunters vocal enough, and got that message out, then the gun issue would cease to be the black hole sucking votes away from Democrats. The party could push “moderate” gun control such as banning nonhunting guns, and gun owners would feel assured that their gun rights were not going to be restricted.

It didn't work out that way this year; the gun issue was still a major factor in this election. Pro-gun Democrats tended to win in pro-gun states, but Democrats who had supported bans on nonhunting guns tended to lose. Here in North Carolina, Democrat Mike Easley (who opposes more gun control and is rated "A" by the NRA) easily won reelection, but nationally known Democrat Erskine Bowles (an ardent supporter of the "assault weapons ban") lost his Senate race to no-name Republican Richard Burr. And many of the same voters who elected our Democratic governor voted against the Democratic presidential ticket. Why?

The leading Democrat in the Senate, Tom Daschle, was hammered at the polls by gun owners and lost to a relative unknown, despite commercial after commercial showing Daschle hunting with a shotgun. Why?

Ohio, where the Presidency was lost, went heavily for Senator Kerry in urban areas, but rural gun owners went heavily for Bush, despite the senator's heavy emphasis on his support for hunting. Why?

The answer is very simple--so simple, in fact, that it’s puzzling why the party has missed it for so long. Let's look at the numbers. It is estimated that there are between 65 and 80 million gun owners in the United States. There are between 13 and 16 million licensed hunters in the United States. Now do some math. Four out of five gun owners are not hunters. I repeat: 80% of gun owners are not hunters.

So why is the national party trying so hard to recast the protections of the Second Amendment as applying only to hunting firearms, if 80% of gun owners don't hunt and hunting has absolutely nothing to do with 2nd-Amendment jurisprudence? Or to turn the question around--why did party leaders think that demonstrating support for hunters would allow the party to go after nonhunting guns with impunity? Four out of five gunnies don't hunt; is it any wonder that a pro-hunting message didn't win the bloc?

The party platform-writers can talk all they want about supporting the Second Amendment, but if we nonhunters lose the right to choose to own nonhunting-style guns, we have lost our Second-Amendment rights. Period. As a nonhunter, I personally don't care if I am "allowed" to own a skeet shotgun or a slug gun suitable for deer; I want to keep my modern-looking small-caliber self-loader, thanks. I'm a Gen X'er, that's what I grew up thinking was cool, and that's what I as a law-abiding American citizen choose to own. And my wife would just as soon keep her 15-round defensive handgun. And apparently, a lot of gun owners feel the same way I do.

Don't get me wrong. I fully support hunters and the right to hunt-- indeed, the excise taxes my wife and I and millions of others pay on our nonhunting guns and ammunition helps fund the game lands that hunters enjoy. But I wish the Democratic party would practice a bit more tolerance for us law-abiding gun owners who don't fit its narrow ivory-tower stereotype of "acceptable" gun ownership.

In the last two presidential elections, the party has consciously tried to split hunters and wingshooters away from nonhunting gun owners; "we'll go after the hunting vote," goes the logic, "and leave owners of other styles of firearms to the Republicans." But that's bad math, since 80% of gun owners don't hunt, and of the 20% that do, many probably own nonhunting firearms too. And trying hard to win a small percentage of a voting bloc while driving the majority of that bloc--and its most committed and motivated advocates--to your opponent is not the way to win a voting bloc.

The prohibitionists have taken the Democratic party for a ride--straight down. Since September 1994, when prominent Democrats led the charge to ban practically all firearms holding over 10 rounds, restricted civilian long guns based on silly distinctions such as what their handgrips look like, and threw the whole weight of the party's prestige and resources behind the movement to ban nonhunting firearms, the Democrats' once-rising star has plummeted. Backing prohibition of nonhunting guns cost the party control of the House in 1994, cost the party control of the Senate, and has now arguably cost a SECOND hard-fought presidential election. Yet the party's response may once again be to try to repackage its support for additional gun prohibition in yet more "hunter-friendly" rhetoric. Perhaps hunters were taken in by NRA rhetoric, party leaders may think yet again. Perhaps hunters didn't get the message that we support hunting, that we support conservation. Perhaps we need yet more photo-ops in hunting gear, more photo-ops at skeet shoots. But perhaps there's a simpler reason that the party's obvious support for hunting didn't defuse the gun issue. Maybe its because most gun owners don't hunt.

Some leading Democratics still don't get it. Democratic strategist Steve Murphy, listing the things that Democrats should absolutely NOT do in order to stop driving away swing voters, stated emphatically that the party should not abandon the push for additional "moderate" gun control, a position echoed by authoritarians at the Democratic Leadership Council. Unfortunately, what urban ivory-tower strategists consider "moderate"--outlawing various nonhunting-style firearms--is considered "extremist" to a lot of us gun owners. But to these strategists, gun control seems to be the Holy Grail--the party can ditch anything else in its platform, it can lose every presidential election, it can continue its slide in Congress, but it must continue to push for more and more restrictions on the rights of nonhunting gun owners.

What if the Republicans tried something like this? Imagine, if you will, the Republican party trying to woo swing voters by pushing to ban all alcoholic beverages over 10% alcohol content, banning beer and wine based on the shape of the bottle they come in (since beverages in tall, dark-colored bottles "have no nutritional purpose"), demonizing wine drinkers as "extremists," and portraying champagne as "the beverage of choice of rapists and drunk drivers"? Although this might appeal to some conservative Baptist teetotolers, who are probably going to vote Republican anyway, do you think this might POSSIBLY hurt the Republican party among the 50% or so of Americans who regularly partake of alcoholic beverages? That would be a really foolish move politically, wouldn't it? Now what if the Repubs didn’t just try this once, but over and over and over and over, losing election after election on the issue but thinking “it’s sure to work next time"?

But that's exactly what the national Democratic party is doing with the gun issue, isn't it? Trying to curry favor with gun-404 urbanites living in states with draconian gun laws, by advocating nationwide restrictions on whatever the gun-prohibitionist lobby tags with a scary name? Labeling people who own nontraditional-looking firearms as “extremists” and “terrorists”? And after every lost election, blaming it on bad talking points and thinking “it’s sure to work next time”? See the problem?

So what can the Democratic party do to defuse this issue? Here's some ideas.

Confront stereotypes. When I say I'm a gun owner, what image of me comes to your mind? A middle-aged white male who talks with a Southern drawl, drives a pickup truck, chews tobacco, likes beer, and owns lots of camoflage clothing? Or do you think of a thirtysomething college-educated guitar-playing, poetry-reading physics geek with glasses and a goatee, who drives a Toyota Camry and is dad to a special-needs kid? Because I'm the latter. I recently worked with a gun owner who happens to be a thirtysomething college-educated black female from New York state who often drives a Lexus to work. And I am married to a gun owner from Cambridge, Massachusetts who grew up in Maine, has a B.A. in English, and studies medieval history for fun.

But let's probe our prejudices a bit further. What if I tell you my most cherished rifle is a SAR-1, a civilian rifle that looks (but does NOT function) like an AK-47? Is your first response to view me as an incipient wacko, full of paranoia about "black helicopters" and "the gubmint"? If so, why? Because all the "AK" owners you've met are like that, or because the media told you to view me like that?

Stop confusing law-abiding gun owners with criminals. Gun crime is a problem. But being tough on law-abiding gun owners is not the same as being tough on crime. It is vital to make that distinction. Any gun is dangerous in the hands of a violent criminal. America's law-abiding gun owners are NOT the problem, and whether we own hunting or nonhunting firearms has nothing to do with it.

As it stands in 2005, the gun control issue isn't about your common street criminal. Criminals are already prohibited from owning a gun. The people who the Feinstein and Schumer and the DLC are fighting to place new gun-ownership-restrictions on are people like my wife and I, who have never had so much as a speeding ticket. Calls for more and more restriction on gun ownership are aimed squarely at us.

Get educated on gun issues. Democratic politicians should take a closer look at the technical issues involved in gun legislation before jumping on the prohibitionist bandwagon du jour. If an anti-car activist advocating banning Honda Civics with 18" wheels, rear wings, levitation lights, and windshield-washer LED's because they are "race cars" that can "outrun police" and "have no legitimate transportation purpose," do you think the average senator or congressperson would fall for it? No, because they are all familiar enough with cars to know that glow lights and chrome wheels don't make a car go any faster, even if it makes it look faster. But when an anti-gun activist claims that thumbhole target stocks, vertical handgrips, threaded muzzles, or rugged looks make a rifle an "assault weapon" that "out-guns police" and "has no legitimate purpose," many legislators fall for it, because they aren't really all that familiar with guns or gun law. That needs to change.

Whenever a Democrat urges a ban on "weapons of war like AK-47's and Uzi's," he or she looks dishonest to gun enthusiasts familiar with the law, because military AK-47's and Uzi's are already tightly restricted by Federal law, the National Firearms Act of 1934--which, after all, has only been on the books for SEVENTY YEARS. Oh, the prohibitionists didn't tell you that the legislation they gave you didn't ban any military weapons, did they? Just civilian nonhunting firearms like my wife's 15-round Glock handgun. It astounds me that more than ten years after the 1994 "assault weapons ban" was passed, many politicians and respected media organizations were still reporting that the ban covered "automatic weapons" or "weapons of war" or "machine guns." When all anyone had to do was go to the BATFE web site and read the Federal Firearms Law FAQ to find that this was 100% wrong.

When leading Democrats seek to ban any ammunition capable of piercing body armor--which practically ANY centerfire rifle caliber will do--why are they surprised when rifle owners feel threatened? (Yes, even grandpa's old .30-30 Winchester deer rifle will drill through level II or IIIA body armor like it's not there.) Oh, the prohibitionists didn't tell you that Kevlar body armor is only designed to stop handgun rounds, did they? But ten minutes' research would have revealed that--if any Democratic strategist had bothered to check.

I could go on. About the myth that a nontraditional-looking 9mm handgun like a civilian Uzi lookalike will “blow a deer to smithereens,” even though it is only one-seventh as powerful as an ordinary .30-06 hunting rifle. Or the canard that rifles with vertical handgrips are “designed to be spray-fired indiscriminately from the hip,” even though a vertical handgrip is more ergonomic than a conventional grip for shooting from the shoulder based on simple human forearm anatomy. Or the claim that the .223 Remington is an ultra-powered super-bullet too powerful for civilians to own, even though it’s the least powerful of all common centerfire rifle cartridges. Or that my SAR-1 is a “weapon of mass destruction” that can “penetrate police body armor from a thousand yards away.” Yeah, right. And my Toyota Camry goes 200 miles per hour and gets 150 mpg. Wanna buy the Brooklyn Bridge?

Maybe Democratic politicians should hire a few pro-gun staffers (not just pro-hunting, but pro-gun in the broader sense) to try to expose these embarassing details before introducing wrongheaded legislation or issuing inane press releases. And maybe the party should view prohibitionist talking points about "assault weapons" and "cop-killer bullets" and "sniper rifles" and "pocket rockets" with the same skepticism they currently reserve for NRA pronouncements.

Pro-gun Democrats--and gun-ambivalent Democrats who don't see the point in alienating tens of millions of voters for no good reason--need to take back the party from the prohibitionists. People like Senator Charles Schumer, who thinks the shape of a rifle's stock affects its lethality, or that a puny 9mm Luger is too powerful/lethal for "civilians" to own (but is OK with "civilians" owning .338 Lapua magnums and 12-gauge shotguns), have absolutely no business setting the party's gun policy.

Don't try to gauge public opinion from "push polls." Perhaps one reason the party was sucked into banning over-10-round- and nontraditional-looking guns in the first place were all the polls claiming that 70% or more Americans favor banning them. But such figures typically come from push polls that misrepresent what the ban actually covers (i.e, "Do you favor outlawing rapid-fire military-style assault weapons that out-gun police and are designed to quickly kill large numbers of people in a very short time," blah blah blah). If instead you ask, "Should all firearms that hold over 10 rounds, like the handguns police carry, be outlawed for civilian use?" you might get a somewhat different response, no?

Remember that nonhunters have gun rights, too. Standing up for hunters is great, and should be applauded. But hunters are only a small fraction of law-abiding gun owners. Don't forget that the rest of us have rights, too.

"Moderate" gun control is already on the books. Prohibitionists consider banning various classes of nonhunting style firearms as "moderate" gun control. To those of us in flyover country, that's not "moderate." It's extreme.

"Moderate" gun control is restricting automatic weapons, firearms over .50 caliber, cut-down firearms, and explosives; requiring background checks for purchases from any gun dealer, even at a gun show; prohibiting a criminal or anyone adjudicated mentally incompetent from touching a gun; requiring background checks and licensing in order to carry a firearm; strictly regulating when a gun can be drawn and/or used in self-defense; restrictions on armor-piercing handgun ammunition and hypothetical "plastic guns" that could evade metal detectors, and so on. All of the above laws are already on the books.

The line of demarcation between civilian and non-civilian firearms was drawn seventy years ago, by the National Firearms Act of 1934. The gun-control advocates really crossed the line when they shattered that compromise in 1994 and tried to outlaw guns that have been deemed suitable for law-abiding civilians to own for 70 to 130 years. In so doing, they stepped all over the rights of the law-abiding while doing little or nothing about the real criminals. And it motivated gun enthusiasts like me into political activism like no gun-related issue has before or since.

I'm not asking for loosening restrictions. I'm just saying that the huge array of restrictions already on the books is enough; continuing to pile more and more restrictions on the heads of law-abiding gun owners (like saying I can't own a certain rifle because of the way the stock is shaped) is wrongheaded and doesn't address gun misuse at all.

Leave it to the states. Advocating "moderate" gun control may play fairly well in places like Southern California, Massachusetts, New York City, Chicago, and D.C . But what the prohibitionists consider "moderate" can be politically disastrous in pro-gun states like Tennessee, Texas, Florida, Nevada, and West Virginia.

If it is so important for gun-404 residents of NYC or Boston or Chicago or San Francisco (where legal ownership of ALL types of guns is rather difficult) to have a ban on low-powered-but-scary-looking guns to make them feel better, let them work for a LOCAL ban, or at worst a state ban (which is already law in Massachusetts, California, and a few other gun-phobic states) instead of trying to shove a national ban down the throats of people in other states who not only don't want one, but who will politically mobilize and fight tooth and nail to defeat any national candidate that calls for one. That is one key lesson the Democratic party needs to learn from the 2004 election.

So why not just leave it to the states? If the people of California want to make owning a rifle with a black plastic stock a felony, they can. If the people of North Carolina wish to own 15-round handguns, they can. And the issue ceases to be the albatross around the national party's neck.

Many Democrats complain about the NRA's influence in national elections. But if the national Democratic leadership would simply drop the crusade against nonhunting guns, the NRA wouldn't even CARE who won. Internet gun forums like the Firing Line and the High Road would once again go back to debating whether 9mm or .45 is the most versatile caliber, or whether .223 Remington is better than 7.62x39mm, instead of organizing to defeat the (mostly Democratic) politicians behind the ban du jour. And I'd be spending more time at the shooting range instead of blogging away at a computer.

It appears that at least some Democratic leaders are beginning to understand. Senator Russ Feingold, who voted for the original ban on nontraditional-looking and over-10-round guns in 1994, rethought the issue and voted against renewing the ban in 2004. And he won reelection.

So, now what? In light of this past election, will the party now stop, leave the issue up to the states, and leave law-abiding owners of nonhunting guns alone? Will the party now stay out of our gun safes, instead of risking election after election in order to get "just a little more" restrictions on the rights of law-abiding nonhunters?

Is the national party going to respect the Second Amendment rights of ALL gun-owning Americans, or just support only the relatively small fraction that chooses to hunt? Is outlawing nontraditional-looking guns really the single most important plank in the entire Democratic party platform, or will the party finally drop it--DROP IT--and move on to the issues the leadership says are more important? Will the party continue to present owners of nonhunting guns with the choice of "vote non-Democrat, or else"?

You tell me. And the other tens of millions of gun-owning nonhunters like me.

We'll be listening. :)

I'd point out that in 2006, dropping support for the "assault weapon" bait-and-switch and getting the issue off the table was a big part of Dean's 50-State Strategy, and the Senate was retaken in '06 by pro-gun-owner, anti-AWB Dems (notably Webb, Tester, Casey, etc.) who defeated repubs in heavily gun owning states.

More on why banning the most popular target rifles in America (aka "assault weapons") is politically wrongheaded:

2005 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,860.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,543......50.76%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....1,954......13.15%
Edged weapons.............................1,914......12.88%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,598......10.75%
Shotguns....................................517.......3.48%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................892.......6.00%
Rifles......................................442.......2.97%

2006 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%


That's for all rifles combined. Small-caliber rifles with modern styling, aka "assault weapons," are not a crime problem in the United States and never have been.

More thoughts on the issue:

Thoughts on Gun Ownership (if you want to understand the psychology of the lawful gun culture--for most people, guns are Zen, not Rambo)

The Conservative Roots of U.S. Gun Control
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. As good today as it ever was. n/t
.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. You will probably get enough suggestions...
But do read the brief by <www.georgiacarry.org>, submitted on behalf of Heller. It is an excellent summary of the racist history of gun control. Also, if you can get a copy, read OUR VANISHING WILDLIFE by Hornaday, New York Zoological Society, 1913 (gun control and anti-immigrant sentiment); GUN WOMEN, Stange and Oyster; and THE GREAT AMERICAN GUN DEBATE, Kates & Kleck, Pacific Research Institute for Public Policy, 1997. These sources provide a good foundation on why liberals/progressives support the Second Amendment.

Hang out here. Democratic Underground's "Forum: Guns" is entirely unique in that a umbrella organization (progressives in the Democratic Party) with over 100K registered members and tens of millions of hits, has an on-going debate on guns in U.S. society. There are plenty of "right wing" gun sites, and several "leftist" gun sites. But there is only one site like DU.

www.progunprogressive.com provides a good list of links and an intimate look at anti-gun politics in Baltimore & Maryland.
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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. THANKS!
Thanks to all who've responded; there's much to absorb. Because there's so much polarity around this issue, what about framing the issue as "firearms policy" rather than "gun control" when presenting the position? The phrase seems less loaded, more neutral, so that the constituents aren't "pre-biased" pro or con from the get-go... Comment? And TIA!
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I think it would be best to describe it as...
A "Pro-civil rights" position..

In light of our parties historical pro-civil rights stances, and the belief by a most of Americans that it IS, a civil right

Let the Republicans be the ones to run on, and explain their vision of a "nuanced bill of rights" that does not mean just what it says.

What State is your candidate from? Is your candidate in a rural or urban area? What IS, He/she PERSONAL view of the 2nd amendment, and other civil rights??

With a bit more input from you, we can really help you out, but we need to know the nature of the electorate in he/she's area, and what he/she's ideas are? Or even if they are open for discussion.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. policy vs control
"Firearms policy" has "been in place" so to say for some time, most would recognize it as basic laws that law-abiding people adhere to.

Just seems that there are those that aren't happy with that and want more laws (more "control"). I believe you'll find that their mission is not to make a safer society, but to exert that "control" in the form of hidden agendas. You'll also find that, especially here in this forum, they don't mind at all taking a stroll all over the Bill of Rights in a pair of muddy boots.

Good luck, interested in how your efforts go.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Oh yeah. We're just control freaks.
We want to reduce the amount of gun violence in this country. Who the hell do we think we are? What a preposterous notion! The fact that most gun nuts don't even want stricter controls on the existing laws proves your theory otherwise, Tejas. You just want to play with your guns and to hell with everybody else. You're like little kids with dangerous tools who need watching over. If that's what you mean by "control", then you're right. If you don't have the self discipline and personal responsibility to help to reduce gun crime, somebody has to.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. ?
"The fact that most gun nuts don't even want stricter controls on the existing laws proves your theory otherwise"

gun owners have long been calling for enforcement of current laws
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. and GWB
only wants to reduce the threat terrorists pose for this country

by GWB i mean current president- not the George Washinton Bridge
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. Why else is banning the *lawful* use of the *least* misused guns your Priority One?
And why are you more concerned about lawful CHL holders than your local felon with the illegal .38 in his waistband?

Judging by the actual policy positions you espouse, fighting criminal violence is just political cover for what you really want. Just like the fundies who fought to ban alcohol in the early 20th century for religious reasons, but cloaked their crusade in more pragmatic garb (domestic violence, worker productivity, and mental health).
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Firethorn Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. I'd rather reduce violence, period
We want to reduce the amount of gun violence in this country.

Zanne,

I'll agree with this part of your statement except for one little part: I'd remove the 'gun'. How somebody is murdered doesn't really matter. Whether they're killed by a gun, knife, club, or strangled by somebody's bare hands, they're still dead.

The fact that most gun nuts don't even want stricter controls on the existing laws proves your theory otherwise, Tejas.

Oh? And what survey do you have that says this? I do frequent a number of gun boards, which includes a number of FFL gun dealers. Many have mentioned turning down felons attempting to purchase a firearm, yet the police don't care enough to show up to arrest somebody for a felony.

If that's what you mean by "control", then you're right. If you don't have the self discipline and personal responsibility to help to reduce gun crime, somebody has to.

So, what's your suggestion that'll reduce gun crime? Preferably in a fashion that respects the rights of law abiding citizens and is fairly economical*?

Ban .50BMG rifles, as is in another thread here? As others have stated - no murders have been committed in the US with one in the approximately 80 years they've been around. Other crimes committed with one disappears into the noise.
Ban magazines with capacities greater than 10? The average criminal shooting is 3 rounds. As a side effect, before the expiration of the AWB, citizens and therefore criminals were tending towards larger calibers - more dangerous per shot. After all, why carry a 9mm crippled to 10 rounds when that's a natural capacity for a .40? or even go to a .45, with it's magazine capacity of 7-8 rounds?
Ban 'assault weapons'? The features that make an 'assault weapon', according to the AWB, are 99% cosmetic. They do not increase the lethality of the weapon. Grandpa's deer rifle is already deadlier than most.
Registration? Most guns are stolen, registration doesn't normally help find them before they're used in a criminal act.
Ballistics database? Two states have had them for years, and have solved approximately no crimes with them - at a cost in millions, resulting in officers requesting to shut down the program in favor of spending the millions on more officers in the street and other, more effective per dollar investigation methods. The problem with the database is that ballistics tests - fired cases, aren't as distinctive as you might think. Especially for early cases, the make and model of the firearm overpower any individual differences, and routine wear, especially for the first thousand rounds, changes the signature significantly. Even the model and batch of ammunition makes a significant difference, to the point that if the control casing is a winchester and the test case is a remington, that a match will not be found.

It's a useful tool if you have a weapon that you're trying to match up with suspected crimes, you have the ability to get the same type of ammunition in most cases to assist in most matches.

The only one that I've heard that makes a little sense is the 'background checks for gunshows', however, any dealer sale at a gunshow still requires the standard NICS check! A dealer isn't exempt from the background check no matter what. So, the only new checks would be for private sales - non-dealer. From surveys, less than 1% of crime guns were obtained from a gun show, so I think that the effects of such legislation would be marginal. You'd be better off doing it for ALL private sales, but there are privacy implications involved with opening up the NICS database to everyone - suddenly I can conduct a criminal background check of sorts on anybody I have name and address for.

Tough criminal sentences for using a gun in a criminal act, and advertising that you're doing so - has had a positive effect on reducing gun crime.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Absolutely excellent post,
sad though that you will never get a coherent much less sensible rebuttal to it. They won't address anything whatsoever related to crime as a societal problem, too easy to use an "out" such as blaming the horrors of the world on an inanimate object.

gunsbadgunsbadgunsbad.........

Tough criminal sentences for using a gun in a criminal act, and advertising that you're doing so - has had a positive effect on reducing gun crime.

Texas AG stressed in TV commercials that firearms violence will result in full sentences - no parole, nothing. I hope he follows through on it.

Welcome to the Gungeon. :)
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Oh really?
"You're like little kids with dangerous tools who need watching over."

Actually, I would characterize most gun owners as "adults with dangerous tools who have taken the time to become acquainted with their proper and safe function and use and enjoy using them on a regular basis for recreational purposes, or have them around for use in defense of oneself or a third party in the event of violent attack." We are more like carpenters with circular saws than children with firecrackers...really. As a matter of fact, many of us pride ourselves highly on our ability to use such an admittedly dangerous and potentially devastating tool with great safety and precision and to a productive end. Even if that "productive end" is just personal satisfaction at the development of a skill.

Frankly, I would suggest that you go out and find some qualified instruction and have a few classes on proper and safe use of firearms, culminating in some supervised range time. You may be surprised when you find out just how simple (most weapons=less than 5 controls) and personally satisfying it is to build marksmanship skills in a safe and sane way. I can almost guarantee that if you have no previous experience with firearms you will leave at least questioning some of your more venomous views about them.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Why would I take up such a useless hobby?
As far as self defense, most guns can't be used that way because criminals have the uncanny ability to sneak up on people instead of saying "GET YOUR GUN! I'M ABOUT TO HARM YOU"! I would also like to add that the paranoia exhibited by gun nuts makes me wonder about their mental stability. WE all know there's nothing like a mentally unstable person with a gun to make the world safer for us and our families.

I think I'll pass on the "supervised range time". I have more constructive things to do.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I don't need to carry a gun to make me feel safe.
I believe I just won this argument. Nice try, though.
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HanoverFist Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. *chuckles*
I didn't say I carried a gun. I don't.

I also didn't say guns made me feel safe. They don't.

Nice try, though.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
41. You're not qualified
If you don't have the self discipline and personal responsibility to help to reduce gun crime, somebody has to.


You and yours scatter at the mention of reducing basic crime in general and hide behind attacks against an inanimate object, and then have the audacity to stand there with your chest puffed out speaking of "personal responsibility"?

Common sense will tell you it's not the guns, it's the criminals, but you refuse to listen. Good luck spending your waking hours blaming a hunk of steel for the horrors in this country while you give criminals a free ride.

When do you reach personal nirvana?
When even the criminals don't have guns?
Will there be no murders or any other crimes?
Really?


---------------------------

food for thought:

What was that slogan they used to try and get through Bush's head? "It's the economy, stupid".

Here's one for the antis: "It's the criminals, stupid"


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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. "Firearms policy" is nice and neutral. You have to be careful with framing, though.
Edited on Fri Apr-04-08 07:12 AM by benEzra
"Firearms policy" is indeed nice and neutral. Be careful of excessive framing, though--if you push it too far, it can backfire, because for nearly two decades framing has been used very cynically by the gun-control lobby (notably Americans for Gun Safety, also the AHSA) to try to repackage bans on the most popular guns in America as "gun safety" proposals. Avoid the terms "sportsmen" and "reasonable regulation" like the plague (most gun owners aren't "sportsmen," and around a third are women, and "reasonable regulation" has been poisoned by its close association with the "assault weapon" issue, pre-1861 magazine capacity limits, etc.).

And whatever you do, don't fall into the "I support hunting but am OK with restricting the ownership of currently legal nonhunting guns" trap; that is a guaranteed loser, because 4 out of 5 gun owners are nonhunters. More people lawfully and responsibly own "assault weapons" than hunt.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. I think it's an excellent approach


what about framing the issue as "firearms policy" rather than "gun control" when presenting the position?

Because that's exactly what it is.

A policy of no regulation of the acquisition, possession and use of firearms would be a firearms policy. A policy of outlawing the acquisition, possession and use of firearms would be a firearms policy. And everything in between that exists in the real world is a firearms policy. Any time that a society / state does or does not do anything about something, it is applying a policy.

Anyone advocating any of those positions -- no regulation, minimal regulation, strict regulation, prohibition, all the variants -- is advocating a policy.

A policy of non-"X" -- non-intervention in the internal affairs of other states, non-funding of crisis centres for victims of violence, non-taxation of sales of goods and services -- is as much as policy as any "X".

That really is the crux of the matter. Anyone advocating minimal regulation of the acquisition, possession and use of firearms, whether s/he bases that position on a constitution or on the sayings of Robert Heinlein, is advocating a policy just as much as anyone advocating strict regulation of the acquisition, possession and use of firearms is advocating a policy. All policies adopted and applied in a democratic society / state need to be the subject of informed, respectful public debate.

And anyone advocating any of these positions has the same responsibility, when participating in democratic discourse, to argue for that policy sincerely: addressing all of the relevant facts and responding to differing interpretations of and conclusions from the relevant facts, and treating both the holders of opposing views and the audience -- civil society -- with respect, by addressing what opponents say and not attempting to characterize them as unworthy of an audience and not attempting to influence public opinion by dishonest argument or demonization of the opponents.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-04-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Quite so. (n/t)
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
16. Asking gun nuts to be assistants in researching attitudes...
Is not exactly objective. By the way, the NRA website would probably be happy to help you. Also, try the GOA website or guns.com. There are hundreds of gun nut websites with message boards that would jump at a chance to take part in "research".
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. So make a suggestion
your post is just another sucker punch on gun enthusiasts- it gets old and it gets childish

So where would you go to find info? gunguys? the VPC? Your post is of no help to the OP
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. we are atleast fair
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=165425&mesg_id=165502

someone advocating on this board reading both sides of the issue and posting a link instead of whining and calling people names
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. How about some gun-control discussion boards as a source?
I'm sure you can point him to some boards where there is a vigorous discussion of gun control proposals, right?

Let's see, there's the Million Mom March Meet Up board? No, wait, they closed that one for lack of interest 18 months ago.

How about the Brady MySpace web site? No, they shut off the comments on that over a year ago because all they had were pro-gun people visiting and refuting their press releases.

Boy, I'm just having a hard time coming up with any web site that actually supports more gun control, provides with 3rd party peer reviewed research as a resource, and actually allows people to add their point of view.

You're right, there are hundreds of "Gun Nut" boards out here but darned if I can find any gun control boards?

Gee, you'd think with an idea that you claim has so many people supporting it, there would be quite a few gun control boards, huh?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Turbo Teg Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. We love our guns. Especially warm ones.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. Here's my thumbnail sketch of the issues -- its not neutral.


Way back when the Bill of Rights was written the founding fathers really did intend for citizens to keep arms so that they could bear them whenever their freedom was threatened. From a Federal point of view, the ability to form a militia was the most important reason for citizens to keep and bear arms, but not the only reason. Self-preservation was the overarching reason.

About 150 years go by (1930s) and pretty much anyone can keep and bear modern arms (except for racist gun control that kept arms out of the hands of Black Americans). There is an unintended side effect of such freedom -- criminal use of guns. As crime became organized as a result of the alcohol prohibition and criminals used modern firearms, the Federal government stepped up with regulation on some of the firearms most feared by LEO (automatic, short-barrelled, etc).

At this point a rationalization was created. The Federal can keep people from owning guns because the 2nd Amendment is a collective right and not a individual right meant to restrict the Federal government like all the other amendments of the Bill or Rights. Another 30 years later (1960s) horrible assassinations of national public figures occur and the Federal government and many citizens become frightened of these tragic abuses. Government institutes massive gun control under the rationalization that the 2nd is a collective right.

Since then there has been a constant push-pull battle over gun control. Until recently, gun control advocates victories outnumbered gun-rights wins. Beginning in the 1980s with some bad control laws (imported guns and machine gun moratoriums), but culminating with the useless 1994 AWB, gun rights advocates started to fight back politically and have made some gains.

All sides are hoping to "win" the upcoming Heller decision, and get a modern decision that evaluates the 2nd Amendment as a collective or individual right.

Thats my take on it.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
27. What I would tell your candidate...
If you live in the big cities of the North East or California or areas that have very restrictive gun laws, you may find most people have an anti gun viewpoint.

If however, you live in Florida or other states that have less restrictive gun laws or allow licensed carry of concealed firearms you may find most people have a pro gun viewpoint.

In other words if most of the people you know own firearms you will have one viewpoint, if most don't own firearms you will probably hold the opposite viewpoint.

What almost all people want is to live a safe life without the fear of criminal activity endangering their existence. They also want to go about their normal daily activities without the threat of encountering some person with serious mental problems on an insane shooting spree.

Violence and mental problems are extremely complex problems to resolve. Solutions involve improving our educational system, providing meaningful good paying jobs, isolating and providing care for people with severe mental problems, finding real solutions to racial problems and finding ways to deter profits from illegal drug dealing. The solutions to the base causes of violence in our society will require intelligent planning, great cost and considerable time.

It's much easier to pass draconian gun laws. When these laws fail just pass even more draconian gun laws. Fortunately, the politicians who do this can only get elected in anti gun areas of the country. When they, or the party they belong to, attempt to pass these laws at a national level they encounter extreme resistance from the pro gun areas of the country. The anti gun position of the Democratic Party has probably cost it the White House and many seats in Congress over the last few years.

Many people in this country distrust government. They feel firearms ownership guaranteed by the second amendment deters a dishonest, power hungry government from eliminating their rights. Recent events show that citizens rights can easily be trampled by a government using the excuse of terrorism.

Sometimes people have trouble seeing the extent of the forest because the trees block their view.

If the Second Amendment were to be interpreted as allowing gun ownership to only apply to members of well regulated militias, I would expect an explosion of "well regulated" militias to spring up in many areas of the country. These militias would be well armed and more than ready to fight for their rights. I have known a number of police officers and ex military people who sincerely believe in gun ownership, who more than likely would join these militias. Some would simply hide their weapons and watch.

I feel that any attempt to confiscate firearms in this country would result in violent resistance to the government or even a rebellion. The economic impact of such a resistance would be enormous and our system of government would be in jeopardy. I'm not talking about red neck loud mouthed fools here, I'm talking about people with military or police training who have served in many of our recent wars from Vietnam to Iraq. They put their lives on the line for a country they believed in. They consider themselves patriots and many would be willing to pick up arms again in an effort to preserve the nation they love.

One well trained ex military sniper could easily shut down a major freeway for hours and escape to attack another day. Imagine the damage a coordinated effort by a small group of ex green berets or navy seals could cause. Such men are dangerous. Al-Qaeda would be remembered as a group of mere amateurs.

In the "broad view" you present to your candidate, tell him that reasonable gun laws will probably be accepted. Draconian laws will face resistance and probably limit his opportunity to seek higher office. Tell him that statistics show that honest people with firearms are not really the problem. Tell him to work to solve the underlying causes of the violence in this country and to work with others to accomplish this goal.

Tell him that a large number of people feel the two most important amendments to the Constitution are the First and the Second. They guarantee all the other rights the founding fathers wisely gave citizens in our Constitution.

Let him read these quotes by Thomas Jefferson:



"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?"

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."



Less violence will cause fewer people to want to own firearms for protection. Fewer firearms in the hands of the untrained and unqualified will lead to a better society for all. Violence is the problem, solve that problem and firearm ownership will stop increasing.

Imagine a country where only hunters, target shooters and collectors felt the need to purchase firearms. A country where you could leave your doors unlocked. A country where you could walk the streets at night without fear.

I grew up in that country in the 50's and 60's. It's changed since then. If we all work together to elect politicians of both parties who dedicate their service to finding REAL solutions to our problems, maybe our children and grandchildren can live in a more peaceful country. If the politicians do solve problems maybe we can regain faith in our government.

I hope your candidate wins and dedicates himself to this effort.







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RSstoppingby Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
29. THR
Check out The High Road, occasionally they have a good thread about candidates on gun-controll but they tend to get locked because political discussions tend to turn low road.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
34. You cannot simultaneously warn of tyranny and advocate gun control.
This is my belief as a "lefty." You may note how many folks on the left think the U.S. is in a "fascist shift" (see Naomi Wolf's THE END OF AMERICA). A fair enough possibility. But these same libs/progs then advocate strict gun control/confiscation.

This is a major disconnect that has corrupted "modern liberal" thought and serves to ask the question: Are you serious or just shrill? Many other libs/progs have noticed this as well (you will see a DU poll in these archives showing half of those responding as armed; not scientific, but with over 700 respondents a good indicator of where many libs/progs are in this debate).

I believe that in my lifetime many liberals have adopted a vulgar form of pacifism and melded it with a disdain for the right to self-defense. This cantilevers well a somewhat older belief that government agencies and bureaus can provide adequate and equitable protection to individuals, thus negating a right to self-defense. This IMO is the crux of the "culture" component of this debate. Both thoreau (the first great American anti-war activist) and Gandhi (who showed how non-violence can be used strategically) have far more to say about peace, the use of guns, and self-defense than a lot of the hubris that floated out of the 'Sixties.

While the prohibitionist nature of "gun control" is obvious, what is not as obvious is what passes for quality of debate. Certainly, one can point to both sides for samples, but it is certainly striking to see how bathroom wall language was first used not by Joe Sixpack, but noted celebrities, politicians, academicians, editorialists, columnists, etc. Anti-gunners set the tone for future "debate." And this could not have been without an even more-striking Russian Front anti-gun editorial policy. Few things are treated more dishonestly by MSM than issues involved with guns, but they and the gun-controllers expected a quick win, hence the verbal napalm. It blew up in their faces and powerfully aided a political red tide, all over the country. Yet, there persists in the news a corporate "rah-rah" Pride in Ignorance concerning major terms and simple technical detail which just defies. And the rest of liberalism is now confronting this spectacle. Really, this stuff from the mouths of academia and a free press?

That aside, my humble suggestion is to investigate the relevancy of gun-control. That's the 'Sixties.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Yeah, I don't get that part.
Scream bloody murder over the Patriot Act and in the same breath endorse trashing the 2nd Amendment.


heck if I know!
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. The same people
after 9-11 who said we should not trade liberty for security were also saying "we need more gun controls to prevent terrorists from getting guns"
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I can understand the
ones that are out and out Fascists, they leave nothing to the imagination and you know what you are up against. It's the ones that buy Brady et al lock stock and barrel that puzzle me.

For example, it took me a while to figure out how in the world McCarthy could stay afloat and win elections. It's her constituency. The majority are union seamstresses and others that (and I could be completely wrong here) vote however they're advised to by their leaders.
They're groomed by their environment (Bloomberg, Guilianni, etc) so as not to own firearms, I see them as a captive audience with money in the form of campaign support.

That's a shame.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-07-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. a bit wrong on Mccarthy
she happens to be from Mineola- the neighboring district to mine on "beautiful" Long Island- she stays afloat because no one runs against her- no one really cares about gun control here- i mean the only reason they say they are is because they don't know better ("well, i guess i want stricter controls on guns"). Like Ackerman- no one runs against her, she hasnt done anything bad or good for the district.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. I used the entirely wrong word
No idea why I wrote "constituency", I meant her campaign financial supporters. Wondered in the past what PACs might be involved and found the union money. PACs is probably not the correct term either, need more coffee LOL!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. those stupid, stupid women


It's her constituency. The majority are union seamstresses and others that (and I could be completely wrong here) vote however they're advised to by their leaders.

What a very, very strange thing to say.

I mean, it would be, in the real world, to normal people ...

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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Sorry that you feel they are "stupid", troll somewhere else - n/t
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I'm going to be standing on the platform


waving a big white hanky when you go.

You're the one that laid the problems of the world at the doorstep of "seamstresses", Mr. Machismo.

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