From the "You're not gonna believe this" Department...

[zanne]

Pa. House Defeats Lost-And-Stolen Gun Bill
We’ve written before about legislation in Pennsylvania and elsewhere that would simply require gun owners to act responsibly in protecting their communities and assisting police. In general, lost-and-stolen gun bills require that owners report when a firearm is taken through criminal activity or when it is lost.

Such bills provide law enforcement officials with better tools to trace weapons used in crimes in general. This legislation also helps to cut down on the practice of gun owners who say their weapons were lost or stolen when in fact they've sold their firearms to prohibited purchasers or other unseemly individuals.

Of course, the NRA in Pennsylvania opposed the anti-crime legislation. As a result it was defeated on a 128-75 vote in the House on April 1.

One pro-gun lobby legislator, and an opponent of the bill, issued a statement that mangles common sense and logic: "All it does is criminalize the innocent man or the victim . . . and legislates morality and values," said Rep. John Pallone (D., Westmoreland). "If something happens a lawful gun owner . . . would report it to proper authorities."

Okay, if a lawful gun owner would report a lost or stolen gun to the police, then why would it penalize him or her if it were the law for them to do so?

And how in the world is helping the police fight crime legislating “morality and values”? This kind of jabberwocky comes straight out of "Alice in Wonderland".

Gun violence prevention advocates took heart that it was the first gun control bill that made it to a vote in the Pennsylvania House in years, but it’s defeat shows just how far away we are from regaining our sense of community responsibility when it comes to gun ownership.

Maybe some day politicians will vote to assist the men and women in blue instead of protecting the gun profiteers and zealots of the gun lobby.
--Gunguys.com

All the bill asks is that people report when a gun is lost or stolen, but that's obviously much more than the legislature in Pennsylvania are willing to do. I'm so sick and tired of gun owners being treated like spoiled children who must always get their way. It's time for out elected officials to get some backbone and stand up to the NRA.

[loveable liberal]

1. Penn. Legislature = 9 watt bulbs.

I'm never moving there.

[Tejas]

16. Yep, waste tax $ while avoiding important issues: PA = typical n/t

[iverglas]

25. well jeez, whadda you expect??

Democratic majority there, isn't it??

[virginia mountainman]

2. You mean BULLSHIT department...

LOL, my guns are prized HIGHLY, they are properly stored as well...

YOU BET YOUR ASS if they get "gone" the moment I find their missing, I WILL be on the phone to the police...

Guns are valuable, only an idiot would not call the cops if they are stolen..

Only an idiot would propose such a bullshit, time wasting, law.

[iverglas]

3. only an idiot ...

Oh, well, it really doesn't call for comment.

[gorfle]

13. Precisely.

There are no firearms in my collection worth less than $350 dollars. Most of them are worth more than $800, and I have some worth over $5000.

You can bet your butt if any of them ever turned up missing I'll be filing a police report and an insurance claim.

[Boomer 50]

14. If this is the bill I'm thinking of......

It went down because it required notification within 24 hours of the theft, not of discovery of the theft. It was a poorly written bill that died the death it deserved. I'm sure that it was just an oversight on the part of the bills author. (Yeah right)

[Man_in_the_Moon]

4. Two things -

1- How can anybody read that tripe from the 'gun guys'. They are so intellectually dishonest they make repukes brady and helmke look like saints.

2- What about my 'boating accident'? ;)

[zanne]

7. As opposed to the NRA site or "Gun Owners of America"?

Pot, meet kettle.

[bossy22]

9. no one said

the NRA was a credible source either

[iverglas]

10. and no one said

that the source of the item in the opening post was a credible source either.


That item consists of two parts:

- a report of certain facts
- an opinion about the facts


On the facts: If you really don't think the source is credible when it comes to the facts it has reported -- i.e. you believe there is some reason to disbelieve its report of the facts -- well, one hardly knows what to say.

But if there is some reason to believe that the event it reports actually did not happen, or happened somehow differently from how it is reported, well, you can always say what that reason is, and then maybe tell us what really happened.


On the opinion: Opinions are neither credible nor non-credible. They are opinions. They may be more or less worthy of agreeing with, depending on how well they take into account the known facts and how solid the argument they rely on is, but they are still neither credible nor non-credible. One really just does not "believe", or not believe, an opinion.


So I'm wondering what the point was ... or, more accurately, why there was no point.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

11. Cool...

Have I ever referenced NRA or GOA?

[zanne]

17. You don't have to...

You use their talking points constantly. Also, you don't provide sources for your "facts". I do.

[gorfle]

18. Yes, your honor

I was fishing when my AR-15 went over the side... :)

[krispos42]

5. The only reasons I can think of for this failure...

...is either there was a "poison pill" part of the bill that was not reported, or soembody made a point of how there have been prosecutions of people that didn't know their gun was stolen until the police came knocking on the door to ask about a crime committed with that person's gun.

I have to get in the shower now, but I'll read the article after work.

[sir pball]

6. Y'know, just to play devil's advocate..

How the hell would you not notice if one of your guns went missing? I shoot at most every 3 days or so and all my guns are kept together, I'd catch on instantly if one weren't there..not to mention as others have pointed out, they're quite valuable. Not to mention that to get to the guns, you have to walk past the computer, plasma TV, stereo, large CD collection, and quite a few other things that would probably also get nicked and tip me off that somebody had broken in.

Not that I necessarily support laws like this (I don't think a fine, even a pretty hefty one for repeats, is totally out of the question but IIRC some have been proposed that go as far as felony charges which is just ridiculous IMHO), but it does kind of baffle me that somebody could say "Oh, I had no idea my gun was gone!"

[57_TomCat]

8. I have several guns...

stored at several properties in three states. I would be pretty sure to notice any missing from wherever I am but can not be sure what is happening out of town. Alarm systems and such can be breached in ways that would preclude notification. I might not know for a week or more if some were stolen.

[krispos42]

15. Three of my four guns may have been missing for a couple of months

I can see my shotgun in my closet just by looking up, but my deer rifle is in a zippered case. I can't say for certain somebody didn't steal the rifle and leave the case. Similar situations for my .22 pistol and .22 rifle.

I don't go shooting very often :-(

[gorfle]

12. And here is what you fail to understand about such legislation.

Okay, if a lawful gun owner would report a lost or stolen gun to the police, then why would it penalize him or her if it were the law for them to do so?

Here's why: We already have NICS background checking of all new firearm purchases, plus the required record keeping by FFL dealers. This makes a record of the the entry point of all new firearms into the market - you can trace them and find out who bought them.

But because we don't track private transfers, the system is open-ended. This means that the government is completely handicapped in any attempt to confiscate firearms, because even though they may be able to determine the first point of sale for all new firearms, they cannot say for certain who owns them now. All firearm owners have plausible deniability for any firearm they may have owned in the past. They can claim in stolen or sold to a stranger.

By requiring stolen firearms to be declared by law, you are working to close off the plausible deniability and moving closer to government tracking of all firearms. I am happy to see this resisted.

Gun violence prevention advocates took heart that it was the first gun control bill that made it to a vote in the Pennsylvania House in years, but it’s defeat shows just how far away we are from regaining our sense of community responsibility when it comes to gun ownership.

It also shows how appreciative firearm owners are of the ability to anonymously own firearms in this country, and how skeptical they are of any move by the government to remove that anonymity.

Maybe some day politicians will vote to assist the men and women in blue instead of protecting the gun profiteers and zealots of the gun lobby.

Hopefully it will be a long day away when politicians ignore 80 million constituents.

All the bill asks is that people report when a gun is lost or stolen, but that's obviously much more than the legislature in Pennsylvania are willing to do. I'm so sick and tired of gun owners being treated like spoiled children who must always get their way. It's time for out elected officials to get some backbone and stand up to the NRA.

Do you know why it is so hard to stand up to the NRA? Because it represents some 4 million paid members and is backed up by some 70 million other firearm owners in this country. We are highly organized and highly motivated. Consequently, we are highly respected by politicians.

No one will be able to stand up to us until their constituency has more clout. This is the way the system is supposed to work.

[DonP]

22. See, now that's rude

How dare you point out that there are far more of us than there are of the gun grabbers, that we're better organized and more strongly motivated.

Why make the poor losers feel bad on top of not getting any of their gun grabbing agenda passed for the last ten years, losing ground everywhere on concealed carry and having the Brady group stop listing their membership numbers because it was becoming embarrassing for them?

That's as rude as pointing out that a lot of us are Dems and progressive own guns and shoot regularly. That ruins their stereotype. Well not really, then they just announce that if we own guns we must all be freeper moles and disruptors.

BTW, who was the short-sighted numb nuts who decided that somehow, all of a sudden, that gun control was a core Democratic value in the first place?

[jmg257]

19. Some more detail on the intended amendment is available...

"The National Rifle Association, with 250,000 members in Pennsylvania, fought vigorously against the bill right up to the vote."

...

"The amendment would have made it mandatory for owners to report missing handguns within three days of discovering that they were gone. Failing to do so could have resulted in a penalty of a summary charge for the first offense and a felony for the third offense.

Seven other states and the District of Columbia have similar laws."

...


"The defeated proposal was an amendment to a bill that would increase criminal penalties for possessing guns with altered or obliterated serial numbers."


http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_page/20080402_Pa__House_defeats_lost-and-stolen_gun_bill.html

[beevul]

20. Someone has a much shorter memory...

than most gun owners do...


"I'm so sick and tired of gun owners being treated like spoiled children who must always get their way."

I'm so sick and tired of people pretending that the 90's didn't happen...


You gun control types got your way zanne, through the 90s. You had your turn, and now its over.

Its our turn now.

[FyurFly]

21. gunguys.com....LOL

[radioburning]

23. What if you don't know your gun has been stolen?

What if that gun you haven't shot in a long time was stolen a year ago and you never noticed it was gone? A law abiding citizen is now criminal without even knowing it. C'mon people, gun violence is not half as prevalent as you think it is. We like to collect and shoot guns and I know you will never understand why, but stop trying to "backdoor" us. There are many more things in America that cause more death than guns. Go on a crusade about those...

[iverglas]

24. kudos to all those who tried soooooo hard

but condolences. Nobody's fooled.

Debunking the bumph is just so easy. You go to google and you ask for pennsylvania legislature. Then you click on the first link:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/

Then you click on "Visit our Session Information page":
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/session.cfm

Then under "search by keyword - bill text", you search for "lost", and then you click on the link for the second result, which says:

Title: HOUSE BILL 29 P.N. 54
Searched in: 2007-2008 Bill Text Regular Session
Summary: AN ACT Amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, providing for registry for lost or sto...

and here's what you get:

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/Legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2007&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billnbr=0029&pn=0054
(with my emphasis to assist anyone who really, really thought otherwise)

HOUSE BILL

No. 29 Session of 2007

INTRODUCED BY WILLIAMS, D. EVANS, GERBER, CALTAGIRONE, JAMES,
W. KELLER, MYERS, WHEATLEY, BISHOP, COHEN, CRUZ, CURRY,
FRANKEL, GALLOWAY, JOSEPHS, KIRKLAND, LEACH, M. O'BRIEN,
PASHINSKI AND ROEBUCK, JANUARY 30, 2007

REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY, JANUARY 30, 2007

AN ACT

1 Amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of the Pennsylvania
2 Consolidated Statutes, providing for registry for lost or
3 stolen firearms and for failure to report lost or stolen
4 firearm.

5 The General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
6 hereby enacts as follows:
7 Section 1. Section 6111.1(b) of Title 18 of the Pennsylvania
8 Consolidated Statutes is amended by adding a paragraph to read:
9 § 6111.1. Pennsylvania State Police.
10 * * *
11 (b) Duty of Pennsylvania State Police.--
12 * * *
13 (5) The Pennsylvania State Police shall maintain a
14 registry of all firearms reported lost or stolen in this
15 Commonwealth. The registry shall contain, if available, the
16 manufacturer, model, caliber, serial number and any other
17 identifying information concerning any firearm reported lost
18 or stolen, as well as the name of the lawful owner of the

1 firearm. If a firearm is reported stolen to a local law
2 enforcement agency, that agency shall collect the required
3 information and shall submit it to the Pennsylvania State
4 Police within 24 hours.
5 * * *
6 Section 2. Section 6111.4 of Title 18 is amended to read:
7 § 6111.4. Registration of firearms.
8 Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary,
9 nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any
10 government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to
11 create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership
12 within this Commonwealth, other than a registry of firearms
13 reported lost or stolen under section 6111.1(b)(5) (relating to
14 Pennsylvania State Police). For the purposes of this section
15 only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapon that is
16 designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile
17 by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any
18 such weapon.
19 Section 3. Title 18 is amended by adding a section to read:
20 § 6127. Failure to report lost or stolen firearm and notice of
21 multiple purchase reporting.
22 (a) Offense defined.--A person who is the owner of a firearm
23 that is lost or stolen and who fails, within 24 hours after the
24 loss or theft is discovered, to report the loss or theft to an
25 appropriate local law enforcement official commits a summary
26 offense, punishable by a fine of up to $500. A person who is
27 found to intentionally fail to report a loss or theft commits a
28 misdemeanor of the first degree for a first offense and a felony
29 of the third degree for any subsequent offense.
30 (b) Duty to forward report to sheriff.--A local law
20070H0029B0054 - 2 -

1 enforcement official, or his designee, who receives a report
2 under subsection (a) shall forward a copy of the report to the
3 sheriff of the county in which the complainant or victim resides
4 within 24 hours.
5 (c) Order.--Notwithstanding any other penalty prescribed by
6 law, the court may enter an order prohibiting a person convicted
7 for a violation of this section from the purchase or any other
8 method of acquiring a firearm for a period of six months. An
9 order entered pursuant to this section shall be transmitted to
10 the Pennsylvania State Police within 24 hours.
11 Section 4. This act shall take effect in 60 days.

So sorry, folks! The silly diversionary grooming just didn't work.

NO ONE would have been required to report the loss or theft of a firearm THAT S/HE DID NOT KNOW HAD BEEN LOST OR STOLEN.

Fuckin' duh.


Oh, and note how the delicate sensibilities of the "gun rights" crowd were addressed by specifying that no other kind of firearms registry may be maintained by anyone.

So I'm wondering ... what's the problem, now?

[Callisto32]

26. Rights, Yessir

iverglas,

I find your placing of gun rights in quotes to be fascinating. Here is why

US Constitution, Amendment 2: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Also, I am a PA resident so I know this little bit:

PA Constitution; Article 1, section 21 :The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

SHALL NOT BE QUESTIONED is VERY strong language. To even SUGGEST that gun rights be infringed is a violation of the constitution of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I'm sure that people will want to argue that point and they may feel free to do so. I'm just reading the words and telling you what they mean.