Film legend Charlton Heston dead at 84

[liberal4truth]

Film legend Charlton Heston dead at 84

By BOB THOMAS, Associated Press Writer

April 5, 2008

LOS ANGELES - Charlton Heston, who won the 1959 best actor Oscar as the chariot-racing "Ben-Hur" and portrayed Moses, Michelangelo, El Cid and other heroic figures in movie epics of the '50s and '60s, has died. He was 84.

<snip>

"Charlton Heston was seen by the world as larger than life. He was known for his chiseled jaw, broad shoulders and resonating voice, and, of course, for the roles he played," Heston's family said in a statement. "No one could ask for a fuller life than his. No man could have given more to his family, to his profession, and to his country."

Heston revealed in 2002 that he had symptoms consistent with Alzheimer's disease, saying, "I must reconcile courage and surrender in equal measure."

Heston stepped down as NRA president in April 2003, telling members his five years in office were "quite a ride. ... I loved every minute of it."

Later that year, Heston was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor. "The largeness of character that comes across the screen has also been seen throughout his life," President Bush said at the time.

He engaged in a lengthy feud with liberal Ed Asner during the latter's tenure as president of the Screen Actors Guild. His latter-day activism almost overshadowed his achievements as an actor, which were considerable.


more at:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/ap_on_en_mo/obit_heston

[melody]

1. Guess we can pull his gun from his cold, dead hand now

I'm sorry for that -- I just couldn't contain myself, especially given who it is.

[TriggerGal]

5. S'okay ...

I was thinking the same exact thing!

[SteinbachMB]

9. What's wrong with being a gun guy?

...I'm not, but c'mon, it's American as apple pie, and rap.

[zanne]

14. No...It's American as the wild, wild west.

And all we really know about that is what we've seen on "Gunsmoke".

Those days are gone, by the way. There aren't alot of Indians trying to attack stagewagons these days.

[bossy22]

17. historical innacuracies

"Those days are gone, by the way. There aren't alot of Indians trying to attack stagewagons these days"

neither was there alot back then- hollywood though portrays it differently to make money

the wild west was a much different place than you think

[SteveM]

48. Violent crime in the late 1800s was highest in Eastern cities.

But I guess they couldn't write dime novels out of some barroom shootings in NYC, Philly & D.C.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[man4allcats]

2. Like all people, he had faults.

Still in all, he was a good man.

[Syrinx]

3. I didn't agree with his politics

But I hope this thread doesn't devolve into a dance on the grave. I hate that shit.

[melody]

4. Sorry, he backed up Reagan and helped push forward the anti-middle class/poor agenda

I have only a small amount of sympathy for anyone who takes advantage of his position to crush those
weaker than himself.

[Syrinx]

6. I'm not defending Heston or his politics

But I detest it when people celebrate a fellow human being's death.

It's disgusting. Whether Ronald Reagan, or Anna Nicole Smith, or Heston. It's ugly and hateful. I don't want to be a part of it.

[melody]

23. Nobody is celebrating it. I prefer to respect those whose deaths he helped advance

Like those who might have been helped by all the medical research Reagan and Bush stood in the way of.

[bossy22]

31. funny

that nancy reagan ended being a big supporter of Stem Cell research

[melody]

34. Yup, after she watched her husband die slowly

Some come to compassion only through suffering, a wise person said. At least she finally got there.

[SteveM]

49. Not celebrating? Coulda fooled me. Ever check our his civil rights record?

On the front lines. In marches before it was popular. When other "Hollywood types" were murmuring back home in their Mediterranean mansions.

[zanne]

13. He was a stereotype of our gun culture...

He thought he was macho but descended into dementia. Wait a minute...maybe the dementia came first and the gun-posturing came second! He was loathsome. All he did for society was to encourage more guns.

Sorry, but the truth is the truth. He died a natural death as opposed to the millions of people in this country who've died of gunshot wounds. He was lucky.

[bossy22]

16. actually

luck would be if the odds were stacked against him- the chance of dying by gun shot in this country is about .0036%

As much as people hate him for his NRAness, he was a good, accomplished actor

"He thought he was macho but descended into dementia. Wait a minute...maybe the dementia came first and the gun-posturing came second! He was loathsome. All he did for society was to encourage more guns."
you actually maybe right- not what your messege you are trying to send out- but people with alzheimers usually have it 15 years prior to when they start showing symptoms

[melody]

25. Exactly. He also died in old age unlike all the victims of Reagan's backward thinking.

Everything that wasn't done during the Reagan and Bush years killed countless people through a preference
of money over life. I'll choose to not respect his life.

[SquatDog]

28. millions?

There haven't been millions of firearms deaths in the entire history of the United States, including war dead killed by firearms.

[zanne]

15. You don't agree with his politics, except for the gun part? nt

[Boomer 50]

30. Same here.

Though he did stand for civil rights..... all of them. He was a great actor and inspiring to many. Doesn't matter if someone agrees with his politics or his views, he gave a lot to the world. He's another of the greats that has passed into history.

My sympathies to his family and may he rest in peace.

[TomInTib]

7. And not a moment too soon

Fuck the sorry old bastard.

[SteinbachMB]

10. Bad karma

dude.

[TomInTib]

11. That's OK...

I don't believe in Karma.

I cannot afford to do so.

dude.

[Boomer 50]

33. Remember you said this

When the Conservatives say the same things about someone you support or idolize. I would hope, as a gun owner, that I and other gun owners would be more sensitive when Sarah Brady passes or another anti-gunner.

I would rant on but I'll only ask this, have you no shame? Have you no respect for the dead?

I'm sorry, but this kind of stuff sickens me.

[Spoonman]

53. Please do the party a favor

.... and don't claim to be a Democrat publicly, we don't need your "help".

You demonstrate the same mentality as repuks with comments like that.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benEzra]

18. Sigh...

Looks like some people have bought into the Rovian stereotype of Dems as hating guns and gun ownership. Some do, but most don't.


----------------------
The Conservative Roots of U.S. Gun Control

Thoughts on Gun Ownership

Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What? (written in '04, largely vindicated in '06, IMO)

[jody]

21. Apparently you hate the Democratic Party because it promises "We will protect Americans' Second

Amendment right to own firearms".

To what political party do belong or support?

[slackmaster]

24. Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!

:nuke:

[liberal4truth]

44. LOL!! I knew somone would post that if I waited long enough!!....

...but heres another one: "Soylent Green is People!"

[aikoaiko]

26. We'll all follow him into the grave --- see you there.

:hi:

[Tejas]

12. Syrinx, I would break bread with you

Thank you for your honest statement despite your personal beliefs, it mirrors one that I would make about anyone itching to dance across the graves of Schumer, Brady et al.

Looks like General Discussion in here at times doesn't it?

[Turbo Teg]

19. Well, I never really watched

his movies I don't think, and I'm not really sure about his politics, but I thank him for his time as a gun rights activist. RIP Mr. Heston.

[jody]

20. Heston endorsed Don Siegelman for governor against Bob Riley. NRA graded Siegelman A+ and Riley A.

Heston was NRA president at that time.

[aikoaiko]

27. boom -- and suddenly cognitive dissonance smacks anti-rkba DUers in the face.

:rofl:

[gorfle]

35. I've said it before...

And I'll say it again:

The NRA is non-partisan. They will recommend whoever they see as the most pro-gun candidate. I carefully check my NRA endorsement scorecard before each election. The frequently endorse democrats.

Think about this, NRA haters - if Democratic candidates were actively pro-gun the NRA would become the most powerful lobbying agency the Democratic Party could dream of.

[bossy22]

36. true to a degree

though they are non-partisan they usually side with republicans if this is a tie- the reason they do this is the national republican party in general is more pro-gun than the democrats

[iverglas]

38. and ...

if Democratic candidates were actively pro-gun the NRA would become the most powerful lobbying agency the Democratic Party could dream of.

... if Democratic candidates were actively anti-women's reproductive rights ... as Charlton Heston was ... the anti-choice brigade in all its hydra-headed outcroppings would be an even more powerful lobbying agency for the Democratic Party.

Any questions come to mind?

[gorfle]

41. The difference is...

... if Democratic candidates were actively anti-women's reproductive rights ... as Charlton Heston was ... the anti-choice brigade in all its hydra-headed outcroppings would be an even more powerful lobbying agency for the Democratic Party.

Any questions come to mind?

Yes, Iverglas, and if we courted satanists we could add them to our lobbying force, etc. etc. etc. I have no interest in recruiting the pro-life crowd to the Democratic Part, as I don't find their issue to be essential to freedom. I'd be all for a pro RKBA Democratic party, whereas I'm sort of ambivalent about the reproductive rights thing.

I am torn on the abortion issue. When I was younger, and only wanted to get laid, I was all for abortion, because if I got someone pregnant the last thing I would have wanted is to have a baby. Now that I have a daughter, I can't imagine ever having wanted to kill her. One thing that has not changed on my position of abortion is that I think it is killing someone. Note that I don't have a problem with all killings. We kill some criminals, our soldiers go forth and kill, we kill in self-defense, so clearly we as a society have found it useful and/or necessary to kill people from time to time.

I don't see any point in trying to draw an ambiguous "line in the sand", where after X number of months it's a person, and before X number of months it's not. In my opinion, there is only one clear demarcation point, and that is conception. So in my book, terminating a pregnancy is killing someone who otherwise almost certainly would grow up to be a normal, healthy person.

If we ever determined that we were going to have an abnormal baby (we are pregnant again), my wife and I have already decided, as we did the first go-around, that we would have an abortion. We both feel that it is hard enough to make it in this world when you have all your faculties about you - entering this world without all your faculties, physical or otherwise, is to be almost certainly doomed to not amount to much. Yes, I know there are lots of handicapped people in the world who have amounted to lots, but for every shining example I'm sure there are many more who don't shine at all.

I'm also mostly of the mind that I'd rather see a child killed than raised by parent(s) that don't want it or realize they can't afford it.

But then every time I look at my daughter I know instantly that I would give my life in a second to save hers, with no thought or hesitation at all. For all the joy she is in our life I cannot imagine how black it would be had we decided for some reason to kill her before she was born. Some might say that we would feel the same joy for a handicapped child, and I do not doubt that would be so, but I believe it is a selfish thing to raise a child solely for the joy they bring you - we have an obligation to launch them on their way in life and see them succeed.

Anyway, I digress. My point is, I am not in favor of trying to rally the pro-life folks to the Democratic party. Too many of them are religious nuts and the last thing I want is more irrational, superstitious people influencing the politics of my party - that was one of the major reasons I left the Republican party. But I would be all in favor of trying to rally the pro-RKBA folks to the Democratic party. Now granted, I'd bet a lot of them are religious nuts, too, but I'd hold my nose for people who understand the importance of the most important freedom we possess. I'll give them a pass on superstitions if they help us retain the right to keep and bear arms.

[Lefty48197]

77. What a joke

A huge number of the NRA members and leaders are avowed Republicans. Their support for the GOP has nothing to do with guns. They oppose Social Security, social safety nets, human rights, equality and everything else we Democrats stand for. It's like the right wingers who claim that we should "honor the troops", and then go on to slander John Kerry when he runs for office. They're nothing but a bunch of charlatans.

[iverglas]

80. noooooo

Surely not ... Charlaton Heston??

[swimmernsecretsea]

22. They're going to turn him into a great big fucking hero,

replay those Moses images and clips, and make him out to be this huge moral, saintly, godlike being like they did with Reagan.

He was an actor that played historical figures (and won an award for it), and liked guns.

[SteveM]

50. I saw him in the big epics ...and in civil rights marches.

While watching our old black 'n' white T.V. of early civil rights marches, he was there, using his celebrity to support civil rights on the front lines long before other "celebs" caught on. He had his faults, but his support for civil rights was not among them. The fact he liked guns does not count in his disfavor, BTW.

[Lefty48197]

78. Yeah Heston supported Civil Rights and Reagan once supported Unions

Both then lost their minds and sold their souls to the right wing. Heston didn't go to the grave supporting civil rights.

[liberal4truth]

84. Sure he did. Heston supported the "civil right" to own a bunch of firearms, didn't he?...

I wonder how many illegal guns the police had to haul out of his
mansion, after he bellied up and croaked ?

Oh thats right!

The wealthy don't have to obey the same laws as us "lesser folk" do.

Never mind x(

[sergeiAK]

89. Why would Heston have illegal firearms?

He wasn't a felon, nor any class of "prohibited person". He was wealthy, further reducing any temptation of buying stolen firearms. His tastes ran towards the old west style guns, mostly lever action and single shot, so there goes the unregistered full auto problem (though if he wanted full auto, he could certainly afford it).

So, again, why would someone of his status have an illegal weapon?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bossy22]

32. link

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/04/06/heston.dead.ap/index.html#cnnSTCPhoto

one of these photos has a picture of heston holding up a sign saying "all men are created equal"

[iverglas]

37. hmm

Back in the 1960s, I was active in campaign politics for the Liberal Party of Canada. I hope no one holds that against me when I die -- I'd seen the light by the end of the decade.

So in the 1960s, Heston was on the side of right. He was then on the right-wing side for a few more decades, after that. Why should I like him for what he did over 40 years ago? The person who died was a right-wing piece of shit. His choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlton_Heston

... By the 1980s, Heston opposed affirmative action, supported gun rights and changed his political affiliation from Democratic to Republican. He campaigned for Republicans and Republican Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush.

... Heston was the President and spokesman of the NRA from 1998 until he resigned in 2003. At the 2000 NRA convention, he raised a hand-made Brooks flintlock rifle over his head and declared that presidential candidate Al Gore would take away his Second Amendment rights "from my cold, dead hands." In announcing his resignation in 2003, he again raised a rifle over his head, repeating the five famous words of his 2000 speech. He was an honorary life member.

... Heston opposed abortion and gave the introduction to a 1987 pro-life documentary by Bernard Nathanson called Eclipse of Reason which focuses on late-term abortions. Heston served on the Advisory Board of Accuracy in Media, a conservative media watchdog group founded by Reed Irvine. ...

Good riddance.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. You never surprise me with your classiness, Iverglas.

I can't find that sarcasm tag. I hope I laid it on thick enough.

David

[RSstoppingby]

40. Whats wrong with that?

What is wrong with opposing affirmative action, supporting guns rights, and opposing late term abortions? At first, abortions are ok but by the time the women is several months pregnant, it is actually a person. And even better, he hated that piece of shit Al Gore.

[bossy22]

42. Well

it sounded like he opposed abortion in general- if that is true i do not agree

[gorfle]

43. That was one of my biggest problems.

... Heston was the President and spokesman of the NRA from 1998 until he resigned in 2003. At the 2000 NRA convention, he raised a hand-made Brooks flintlock rifle over his head and declared that presidential candidate Al Gore would take away his Second Amendment rights "from my cold, dead hands." In announcing his resignation in 2003, he again raised a rifle over his head, repeating the five famous words of his 2000 speech. He was an honorary life member.

This was one of my biggest problems with Heston and the NRA. They are simply too mild-mannered about what the 2nd Amendment is really for. I think they are afraid to say what it is really for for fear of being viewed as too extremist.

If Heston had stood up on that stage with an AR15 in his hands I would have been much more impressed with the message. A musket is of no use to fulfilling the vision our founding fathers had for the second amendment.

I can forgive the man for his stance on affirmative action. I held the same views for many years. It's not surprising for Republicans - they tend to be very pro-self-sufficient and expect no legs-up to make it in life, since they don't feel they get one themselves. I like Obama's discussion of this issue in his speech on race very much - he understands the resentment on both sides. I personally finally came around to believe that though Affirmative Action, or any quota system not based on skill, is inherently unjust, it is a necessary injustice that we must bear for a while longer to level out the playing field, or else minorities will continue to lag forever. Minorities need more successful role models for their children. I believe that if most minority parents think they are doing well to be the janitor someplace, then their kids will likewise rise to those expectations and only the exceptional will rise further. Or worse they will see the the limit that their parents reached and give up on trying to succeed feeling that the deck is stacked against them. I believe children born to "successful" parents will generally have a much higher metric they will measure themselves against.

I've never understood the hooplah over late-term abortions. Firstly, as I've said before, I don't see any real significant difference between a 2-month-old baby and a 7-month-old baby. But moreso, I bet late-term abortions are extraordinarily rare and almost certainly usually done to protect the mother. It's like getting upset about rifle crime. It's so rare it shouldn't even be an issue.

All in all I consider Heston a "man's man". He seemed to be a tough old codger, and stood up for what he believed to be self-reliance, freedom, and defense of the helpless. I've turned away from some of the things he believed, but all in all he seems to me to have been an honorable man.

[liberal4truth]

45. Well, Heston was admitting that you have every right to own a muzzle-loader I suppose

Why else would he use an antique firearm that hasn't been used since the civil war?

More to the point, I don't see to many crimes (actually none) committed with muzzle-loaders, so I suppose
thats a good thing.

[Turbo Teg]

46. You don't see

to many crimes bieng commited with a .50 bmg either.

[gorfle]

47. Exactly my point.

Well, Heston was admitting that you have every right to own a muzzle-loader I suppose. Why else would he use an antique firearm that hasn't been used since the civil war?

Exactly my point - it was way too soft a statement. The founding fathers intended that we have a decentralized military system made up of the people so that we could act as a counter to federal military power. A muzzle-loader is not sufficient to that task today. Consequently the muzzle-loader was a poor symbol. Should have been an AR-15.

More to the point, I don't see to many crimes (actually none) committed with muzzle-loaders, so I suppose thats a good thing.

Even modern rifles are hardly ever used in crime.

[benEzra]

52. Not many crimes committed with breechloading rifles, either. (n/t)

[SteveM]

51. Ah, the "compassion crowd" shows its real colors. Oh! The humanity!

[Lefty48197]

79. Compassion for the compassionate

Flaming embers for the rest.

[Spoonman]

54. Good riddance?

And you want us to respect ANYTHING you have to say about ANYTHING.

"Good riddance"

The next time you post anything about your personal experience we'll remind you of this comment.

"Good riddance"

The next time you rant on about some worthless criminal dying from a gun shot remember "Good riddance"

"Good riddance"

How old are you? I want to know how much time we've got to get the banner reading "Good riddance".

[iverglas]

57. Yuppers!

The next time you post anything about your personal experience we'll remind you of this comment.

Do what you like. You imagined I care? Have I ever suggested that anyone should give a damn about my personal experiences? Nope. Nobody gets to appropriate them in the service of his/her own nasty little agenda. That's all. Crocodile tears not needed.

Still not sure what I might have DONE to merit such a comment from anyone at a good liberal / progressive / d/Democratic website, of course ... but whatever.


The next time you rant on about some worthless criminal dying from a gun shot remember "Good riddance"

Gee golly gosh. Did someone shoot Charlton Heston dead, and I missed it?

Y'all feel free to say "good riddance" about the death of anybody you like. It will have absolutely no bearing on whether any homicide was justifiable/excusable. Y'all's feelings about the deaths of criminals are of no more consequence to anything than my feelings about the death of Charlton Heston. The difference between the situations is that I've never noticed anyone celebrating the good deeds of dead criminals, but I notice some celebration of Heston's deeds here. By way of counterpoint, I say: good riddance, to all his evil deeds. If you notice someone celebrating the deeds, or even mourning the death, of criminals, you feel free to do the same.


And you want us to respect ANYTHING you have to say about ANYTHING.

Gee. Would you respect me if I publicly mourned the death of, oh, Pol Pot? Is there a line somewhere that divides those whose deaths one might rejoice to hear of from those whose deaths one must shut up about? And do you get to draw it?

That last one's rhetorical, just so's you know.

[bossy22]

59. To answer one of your questions

Have I ever suggested that anyone should give a damn about my personal experiences?

Well not directly but you have def. given hints- thats why some think that all you want is attention- but hey im no psychologist nor am i mind reader so i won't go deeper into that

[iverglas]

62. you bet you ain't

Well not directly but you have def. given hints- thats why some think that all you want is attention- but hey im no psychologist nor am i mind reader so i won't go deeper into that

I am not remotely interested in anyone's feeeeelings about my experiences, or anyone's sympathy for me or lack thereof, or anything else along that line.

My experiences are RELEVANT DATA in some discussions, and that is the one and only reason why they are ever raised here.

It makes me puke to see people who don't give the slightest shit about anyone but themselves exploiting women's experiences -- and that includes mine -- to advance their nasty agendas. And I will say so every time it happens. They very plainly do NOT care about women's experiences, and that includes mine. I don't give a shit whether they care or not. It's the self-interested pretense that will not go without comment.

My experience as a victim of violence, woman or not, is also relevant to many aspects of these discussions, inculding the advisability of victims of violence having access to firearms.

Why I would want "attention" from the vast majority of the denizens of this place ... ew. Makes the skin crawl.

What could possibly prompt you to think what you've said, or to say it even though you don't think it, I wouldn't know.

So you just leave my personal experiences, and the experiences of all women and anyone else not present who has had similar experiences, out of the discussion altogether, and you'll never have to hear about mine.

And all us women will continue to be well rid of activists in the crusade to deny us liberty and security, whoever they might be. One being Charlton Heston.

[bossy22]

66. where to start

"What could possibly prompt you to think what you've said, or to say it even though you don't think it, I wouldn't know."
Well, your question did.

"Why I would want "attention" from the vast majority of the denizens of this place ... ew. Makes the skin crawl."
I don't know- you'd be the best one to answer that question

"I am not remotely interested in anyone's feeeeelings about my experiences, or anyone's sympathy for me or lack thereof, or anything else along that line."
Well you could have fooled some of us.

"My experiences are RELEVANT DATA in some discussions, and that is the one and only reason why they are ever raised here."
that is true- but it seems like you "jump" at every chance to mention it

[Spoonman]

68. ALL TRUE

OH SO TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:spank: :rofl:

[Spoonman]

61. Tripe!

Have I ever suggested that anyone should give a damn about my personal experiences?

You've got to be kidding, right, wrong.
You have dribbled out constant cries for sympathetic views for your stance on the main issues of this board based on what you claim to have been through for YEARS!!!!!
Your experience is the focal point and basis of your assertions in hundreds of replies.

Oh poor poor me, I was this and I was that and it all led me to devote my life to protest guns. Blah, Blah, Blah!!!!

The difference between the situations is that I've never noticed anyone celebrating the good deeds of dead criminals

Good deeds - Criminals (Hello, wake up!) There's your problem right there.

There's a big difference between Pol Pot and Charlton Heston, do you really want us to think you are so fucked up you can't see the difference?

There is NO defense for your apparent joy in his death, but there is a reason.

Hopefully someone will find a cure for self-righteous shitbrainism.

[iverglas]

63. the universal moi

You have dribbled out constant cries for sympathetic views for your stance on the main issues of this board based on what you claim to have been through for YEARS!!!!!

You're not even making sense.

Who wants "sympathetic views" for a stance on an issue -- unless here you are simply equivocating on the word "sympathy"?

What I have "been through" -- and here, I'll say it again for you -- is a RELEVANT DATUM when someone else is claiming to be acting on behalf of people who have been or might go through the same thing.

You all shut up about how your agenda serves women and victims of violence in general, and I won't bother you all no more.

Damned blasted funny, though, how the bleating of the big chivalrous males about their concern for the welfare of all the little women of the world who are liable to be attacked by big ugly evil doing men at any moment is a goooood thing, but the report of a woman about her actual experience in that regard is nought but dribble. Yes, you all are really concerned about the welfare of women, you all are.


Your experience is the focal point and basis of your assertions in hundreds of replies.

"Replies" being the operative word there, of course. Nobody tries to exploit my/women's experiences in the service of his/her nasty agenda, nothing needs to be said.


Good deeds - Criminals (Hello, wake up!) There's your problem right there.

Brrrring brrring!! You're seriously saying that no criminal has done good deeds?? Never held the door for a stranger, or told a child a bedtime story? Gimme a break.

Charlton Heston did some good deeds in his younger days. Then he spent a long time being a pig.

Name me a criminal who never did a good deed, if you will. As for all the others, they're in the same class as Charlton Heston -- people who did some good deeds and some evil deeds. I'm not at all sure why only Charlton Heston's deserve mention. But like I said, nobody's ever actually brought up the good deeds done by any of the criminals on whose graves people hereabouts so like to dance, so I fail to see what point was being attempted in the first place.


There's a big difference between Pol Pot and Charlton Heston, do you really want us to think you are so fucked up you can't see the difference?

Sweetie -- I asked you to tell me where the line I may not cross is. Woncha?

Pol Pot: okay to dance on grave.
Charlton Heston: not okay to dance on grave.

How do I tell???


Hopefully someone will find a cure for self-righteous shitbrainism.

Yes, I assume that's what Charlton Heston was hoping for. Oh well.

[Spoonman]

65. Once again for the world to see

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah

"Name me a criminal who never did a good deed"

Charles Manson, Rafael Resendez-Ramirez, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, etc, etc, etc.

And why should I give a fat rats ass what good did ANY criminal ever did, THEY ARE CRIMINALS!!!!!!!

GET IT, THEY ARE CRIMINALS!!!!!!!

I wrote your reply for you, feel free to cut and paste:

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, distort, Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah, Blah

[iverglas]

70. it's too easy

And why should I give a fat rat's ass what good Charlton Heston every did,
he was a RIGHT-WING MISOGYNIST PIECE OF SHIT!!!!!!

You'll forgive me borrowing your punctuation there. Oh, and correcting it.

Getting it yet?

How about if I stand

over here?

[Lex Talionis]

55. Well one things for sure, iverglas.

Thanks to you, I don't feel so bad about being an asshole anymore, hell I'm gonna revel in it from now on. Can't wait to dance on some real liberals graves. Ol' Ted should be kicking it pretty soon.

[iverglas]

56. fascinating

Can't wait to dance on some real liberals graves. Ol' Ted should be kicking it pretty soon.

And you would be doing that ... why?

And might you be doing it here at DEMOCRATIC Underground?

I'll look forward.

[Lex Talionis]

58. Well of course I wouldn't do it here. That would be disrespectful to some

of the nicer more open minded citizens of this board. I guess I still hold a grudge about Mary Jo.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

64. well then isn't it lucky?

that I'm a democrat, but no liberal.


"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

Uh huh. Does the expression "pot ... kettle ... black" mean anything to you?

Yeesh. Like I care about anyone's feeeeelings here, or would go out of my way to prompt expression of them. Ew, again.

And lordy. If I ever saw anything resembling a rational response hereabouts, why I'd have an emotional response myself indeed; I'd jump for joy.

[Spoonman]

67. "I'm a democrat, but no liberal"

YOU ARE WRONG ON BOTH (AGAIN)

1. Your a Canadian, eh, get it, eh, you can't vote for a Democrat in our elections, eh. So that leaves only one option, eh!

2. Democrats have figured out that gun ownership is a right, and we should not fuck with it. Gun control and gunbrabbers have cost us many elections. Liberals have yet to figure any of that out and are still pissing and moaning about guns.

[iverglas]

69. oooookay

I make no sense of any of that, but whatever you say.

Nonetheless, I'm still a democrat and no liberal. Whatever you say. Whatever it was.

[bossy22]

71. surprising

that you don't understand it, i did, on the first try. Is it that you truly don't understand it but choose not to recognize it?

[iverglas]

73. Oh, I'm not surprised at all

(a) I did not say I was a Democrat, I said I was a democrat.

So the response to that comes under the rubric: irrelevant.

And a response that suggests that someone who is affected by things in which s/he has no vote should also have no voice -- or simply that anyone should shut up about anything at all -- doesn't actually qualify as democratic, or even liberal.


(b) I am not a liberal, as I said.

So I wouldn't know what all the bellowing and breast-beating about the alleged evil doings of alleged liberals in that post might have to do with me. I'm not a liberal, so I don't really give a crap what liberals do. Undoubtedly the ancient Greeks put their trousers on one leg at a time; if I put my trousers on one leg at a time, does that make me an ancient Greek?


Wanders off shaking head, I'm afraid.

[Spoonman]

72. "I'm still a democrat and no liberal"..... Yea whatever

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=165727&mesg_id=165811

Back in the 1960s, I was active in campaign politics for the Liberal Party of Canada. I hope no one holds that against me when I die -- I'd seen the light by the end of the decade.

You still have yet to see the light, eh!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Canada

I can't seem to find the Democrat party anywhere in Canada!

[iverglas]

74. hmmmmm

I can't seem to find the Democrat party anywhere in Canada!

OR in the U.S., eh? Eh??

You'll find the New Democratic Party in Canada, though. Not that my membership in that party is particularly relevant to my statement that I'm a democrat. I'm a New Democrat, and a democrat.


You still have yet to see the light, eh!

Oh, friend, I just can't follow you around this labyrinthine thing you seem to think is discourse.

I worked on a Liberal Party campaign when I was 15. By the time I was 16, I was working on NDP campaigns. I had abandoned the Liberal Party, which I had initially associated with out of an excess of youthful enthusiasm for certain of the liberal ideas of Pierre Trudeau, who later demonstrated himself to be a true liberal by doing things like imposing wage controls (after promising not to). Does this help?

Not that this has anything to do with anyone being or not being a liberal. You do acknowledge the distinction between upper-case and lower-case letters in English, right?

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lex Talionis]

76. LOL! n/t

[iverglas]

83. I'd ask you to explain the joke

But, well, that would be kinda futile, wouldn't it??

Sometimes I think I should send flowers. Then I realize how soon I'd be broke.

[iiibbb]

81. "French" Canadian Crawfish?

[iverglas]

82. oops, not following the thread

[spin]

85. Heston supported guns rights but he also supported civil rights...

Heston also marched for civil rights. In May 1961, he joined a picket line when he learned an Oklahoma movie theater premiering his movie was segregated.

Heston also accompanied the Reverend Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" rally in Washington on August 28, 1963. Heston described King as a "20th century Moses for his people.
http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=58456&display_order=1&mini_id=57351

I admire the man because he fought for two of the most important things I believe in.

[iverglas]

86. spin indeed

He fought for civil rights 45 years ago ... and spent much of the rest of his life speaking virulently against measures to improve the lives of members of minority groups.

But you like him for what he did 45 years ago, before he became an activist against equality.

He supported the 1968 Gun Control Act ... and spent most of the rest of his life at the head of a pack of knuckle-dragging assholes opposing the whole concept of firearms control.

But you like him for what he did after he stopped being an activist for public safety.


Hell, at least I'm consistent. I hold him in complete contempt for the contemptible things he did for so long before he died and up to when he died, when he had every opportunity to behave decently and had in fact demonstrated some capacity to do so before becoming a contemptible piece of crap.

Do those knots hurt at all ever?


When you have to reach back 45 years to find something good to say about somebody, the strain must be rather extreme.

[spin]

87. Further research on Google did reveal....

several positions that he held in his later life that I don't agree with. I didn't find any links that verified your statement that he "spend much of the rest of his life speaking virulently against measures to improve the lives of members of minority groups."

I have to admit I'm no expert on Charlton Heston. I did watch Ben Hur, The Ten Commandments and Planet of the Apes. Unusual, since I really don't enjoy movies.

Admittedly the character on the big screen may reveal little or no resemblance to the real character of the actor. My initial research on Google seemed to portray him as a really good individual. Maybe you can provide links that showed a major shift in his attitude toward minorities.

I'm interested in your characterization of members of the NRA as "a pack of knuckle-dragging assholes". I have known many NRA members. Like any large group I've liked and been impressed by some and some I'd rather avoid. Overall NRA members I've known have represented a broad cross section of society. I've met medical professionals, teachers, ministers, factory workers, cops and ex-cops and many other interesting individuals who belonged to the NRA. Many had college education and were very well informed on many subjects such as history and politics. Overall I found them to be interesting, helpful people who in general were patriots and firmly believed in the Constitution of the United States. Surprisingly many of them disagreed with the way our country is headed.

Of course, the majority of these NRA members were Republican and would never vote for a Democrat merely because of the Democratic party's attitude toward gun ownership. They really were not opposed to reasonable gun laws as they felt it would reduce the violence that pervades our society. They did, however, express anger at the "feel good" laws that are often proposed by Democrats. They felt anyone who missuses a firearm should suffer the consequences and irresponsible or mentally unstable people should be prohibited from firearm ownership. They enjoyed shooting as a hobby. The misuse of firearms threatened that hobby and therefore they wanted to solve this problem. Of course they believed in using a firearm for self defense if necessary. A very few said they had used firearms to deter a criminal. None had had to fire a shot in self defense.

Anyone who admitted he was a registered Democrat took a lot of good natured razzing. Such is life.

By the way, how is the weather in Canada. I hope you no longer have to trudge home through the snow.

[iverglas]

88. I'm interested in a variety of things myself

One would be why you said this:

I'm interested in your characterization of members of the NRA as "a pack of knuckle-dragging assholes".

when I said this:

spent most of the rest of his life at the head of a pack of knuckle-dragging assholes opposing the whole concept of firearms control.

Per Wiki, "Heston was the president and spokesman of the NRA from 1998 until he resigned in 2003."

That doesn't seem to be "most of the rest of his life", which would actually be the 45 or so years that came after his brief period of admirability.

"Most of the rest of his life" INCLUDES his stint at the head of the NRA.

Just as the NRA INCLUDES a fair number of knuckle-dragging assholes.

The NRA members my mum and my brother sat with on a cruise around Montreal island a couple of years ago -- one assumes they were NRA members; a retired couple wearing NRA baseball caps, such clever attire for USAmericans visiting Canada -- were apparently very polite. Even though it was a bit painful for them. My brother spent the cruise graciously pointing out and describing landmarks to enhance their enjoyment of the experience, and they all chatted, and when my brother congratulated them on the success of their President's newly published book -- My Life had recently come out -- they just winced and demurred that he wasn't really their president or some such.


Of course, the majority of these NRA members were Republican and would never vote for a Democrat merely because of the Democratic party's attitude toward gun ownership.

And we all know that they really wouldn't vote for a Democrat if s/he stood on his/her head and spat full employment, low interest rates, zero taxes and potted chickens.


They did, however, express anger at the "feel good" laws that are often proposed by Democrats. They felt anyone who missuses a firearm should suffer the consequences and irresponsible or mentally unstable people should be prohibited from firearm ownership.

Sadly, in a liberal democracy, people whose votes are driven only be self-interest, no matter how bottomlessly stupid and uninformed it might be, sometimes get to decide how stuff gets done.

[spin]

90. Ah ha, I least I got you to admit that not all NRA members are...

"knuckle-dragging assholes"

I would hope you don't include me in that category. (I am an NRA member, although I do get tired of their relentless mailings trying to solicit money.)

In our conversations you have struck me as a person who is far too intelligent to use stereotypes to describe large groups of people. One of the NRA members I know was an retired engineer who worked on the computer programs for the Viking probes that landed on Mars in 1978 and 1980. One of the most kind and gentle older men I ever met, he had landed in Normandy in WW2 as a combat engineer. He was also one of the few people I've met who had ever killed another person (although it was in combat). I would hope that you wouldn't call him a "knuckle-dragging asshole". I can state many more examples.

Stereotypes are used by fools. For example, I would be a fool if I said Canadians are all idiots because they choose to live in freezing cold and snow. The only smart ones come south to Florida in the winter time. (We call them snow birds.) By the way just for your info, its currently 79 degrees here in north Florida at 9 pm.

As I said in my previous post, any large group of people (such as the NRA) are composed of those you would chose to associate with and those you would chose not to. After all, there are approximate 4,000,000 members of the NRA.

Yes, it is true that most NRA members vote Republican. This is not too surprising as the Democratic party has been pushing draconian gun laws for years.
Would you be surprised that the NRA does endorse Democrats? For example they endorsed Gov. Bill Richardson. http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2006/oct/03/gun-friendly-guv-gains-nra-approval/

If the NRA gave a Democrat a higher rating than his Republican opponent in a race, most NRA members would vote for the Democrat. Every NRA member receives a list that rates the candidates for state and federal office. And yes, they vote!!! Four million votes would have made a big difference in the last two Presidential elections.

I know you are opposed to firearms. I know you have also traveled through the states and have met many people. True, the citizens in the states cast their votes based on their self interest. To many people guns are very important. You can dial 911 or you can take matters in to your own hand. In a society like ours, 911 takes too long. Americans are by nature a self-reliant people. We don't rely on the government to protect us. To a great degree, we distrust government (possibly with good reason).

But we have major problems in our society. Violence ranks near the top. The solution to violence isn't merely passing more laws to eliminate or restrict firearms. The solution involves finding the root causes to violence and solving them. We need to elect politicians who will attempt to address our problems and not merely use them as wedge issues to gain votes. If we succeed in solving our violence problem, the gun problem will also diminish.

You describe the NRA members your mother and brother met on a cruise around Montreal island and how they really didn't support Bush. Perhaps I should explain to you that Bush is not really a popular President even among the NRA.

The Democratic candidate, whoever emerges, should win the General Election. Democrats have an excellent chance to control both the Senate and the House. If they succeed in making headway against the many problems we face, they should have success in future elections.

For the sake of this country, I hope they do.

[iverglas]

91. and now, will you admit

that the sky is blue?

Pretty vile demagoguery you got there.

I would hope that you wouldn't call him a "knuckle-dragging asshole".

And I would hope that you don't beat your dog. You don't really strike me as the type who would, but maybe you would just confirm this for me. I like to be sure.

The only smart ones come south to Florida in the winter time. (We call them snow birds.)

No, really? I guess that would be why my dad was wintering in Florida when he became ill and flew home and died shortly after.

Now I wonder why he'd decided that was going to be his last winter there. Hmm. I seem to recall it being because he couldn't stand being surrounded by knuckle-dragging assholes any longer. My dad was rather exceptionally smart.

You describe the NRA members your mother and brother met on a cruise around Montreal island and how they really didn't support Bush.

Uh, no, I didn't. I thought you might have recognized the title of Bill Clinton's book. (Edit: George W Bush has written a book??) They despised Bill Clinton, but yup, they were polite in making their feelings known.


I'm sorry. This may have been you making an effort. Starting out by claiming you have made me "admit" something I never denied, and pursuing with a few attempts at patronizing, isn't the best way to approach things.

[spin]

92. I'm beginning to wonder...

If you consider most Americans to be knuckle dragging idiots.

You consider most NRA members to fit that description. You also mentioned your "exceptional smart" father leaving Florida "because he couldn't stand being surrounded by knuckle-dragging assholes any longer".

Do you draw on line on a map and say "below this line live knuckle dragging idiots"? If so, would this line be the Mason Dixon line or the border between Canada and the U.S.? Perhaps you would produce a map showing the red states and the blue states and say that the red states have a population composed mostly of people whose knuckles drag on the ground.

A quick check on the net shows that many Canadians feel Americans are "dumb". If most Canadians feel we are knuckle dragging assholes, that would explain why they always seem so polite and reserved when interacting with people in the states. Irritating the natives might be risky.

Now for another attempt to patronize:

I once read a theory stating that people living in cold northern environments are smarter than people who live in milder climates. Survival in a cold snowy area is so demanding that a smarter race evolves. This theory sounds a little racist to me but what does a knuckle dragger know?

My daughter suggested that Canadians might be smarter because the weather is so bad that they have little choice but to sit home and read.

We both wondered why Canada isn't the prominent leader of the world. Perhaps it's just because you people aren't aggressive enough.

Note: my ancestors, the Irish, never ruled the world because of beer.

****

Any references to any book written by a politician of either party describing his or her life will fly right by me. When I want to read fiction, I normally read Tom Clancy, Stephen King, Ann Rice or John Grisham.