Pro-RKBA Democrats sound off over Clinton, Obama in CHICAGO TRIBUNE blog

[derby378]

Obama supports a proposal to ban concealed weapons nationwide. He also would extend the assault weapons ban. In 1999, before being elected to the U.S. Senate, he favored a federal proposal prohibiting a gun store within five miles of a school or park. And he has tried to distance himself from a questionnaire he filled out when running for the Illinois Senate in which he said he would support a ban on the manufacture and ownership of handguns in the state.

"I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns," Obama said at the debate. "What I think we can provide is common-sense approaches to the issue of illegal guns that are ending up on the streets."

...

"Democrats have taken a beating over the past 14 years at the ballot box because their party is often perceived as being anti-Second Amendment," said Daniel Barnett, a Dallas resident who helped organize a group called Amendment II Democrats. "If Democrats on Capitol Hill want to effect real change in the economy, education, health care, Social Security and the environment, they cannot afford to let themselves be identified as 'gun-grabbers.'"

Zakariah Johnson is chair of the Gun Owner Caucus of the Oregon Democratic Party. The group's motto: "Democrats don't want your guns. We've already got our own."

http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2008/04/clinton_obama_chase_elusive_gu.html

[virginia mountainman]

1. OUTSTANDING!!!!!!!!! K&R!!!

[derby378]

3. You are too kind...!

:hi:

[frebrd]

2. K&R!

[derby378]

4. You, too!

:hi:

[Lex1775]

5. This should be a bumper sticker "Democrats don't want your guns. We've already got our own."

K&R from me as well. Thanks for the story.

[derby378]

6. That slogan is nothing short of awesome

I am so jealous of the Oregon caucus right now...

And thank you! :hi:

[benEzra]

7. Awesome! K&R. (n/t)

[derby378]

8. I do appreciate it greatly

:hi:

[pipoman]

9. K&R

[Herman74]

10. "Obama supports a proposal to ban concealed weapons nationwide"

Change is good!:)

Actually a law banning the concealment of guns being being carried has already been passed -- in France (among other places). You see, pro-gunners, though this might stun you the Frenchies can get by without concealing guns (all the while enjoying significantly lower murder rates).

But you can't???

[derby378]

11. Psst! I've got a little secret...

This ain't France. This is America. We're different that way.

There are some European nations where, if you are licensed to own a hunting rifle, you must get a silencer for it in order to use it while hunting, the upshot being that you do not disturb the serenity of the woods or distract other hunters. Here in America, however, it's a $200 tax and a minimum 60-day waiting period for a silencer, provided that your state hasn't prohibited civilian ownership.

It's a cultural difference. Some may not agree with it, but there you are.

[krispos42]

12. Ummmm...

The murderers we're trying to stop don't have concealed pistol permits in the first place.

And, ummm, as more states allowed concealed carry, the homicide rate dropped.

[Herman74]

15. Ummm (yourself!)...

"The murderers we're trying to stop don't have concealed pistol permits in the first place." -- krispos42

That may well be, but the more important issue is: "WHY THE HELL DO THEY HAVE BULLETS AND GUNS IN THE FIRST PLACE?????" You don't happen to have an answer, do you?

"And, ummm, as more states allowed concealed carry, the homicide rate dropped." -- krispos42

And hasn't the homicide rates dropped in other states as well??? Are there not other variables at play here??? And has the lack of "concealed carry" caused France to experience anywhere near the type of homicide levels found in this country? Yes or no?

Barack Obama wants to try something new to reduce the gruesome carnage caused by guns year after year after year. Dick Cheney and the NRA don't.

With whom do you stand?

[SteveM]

17. Crims get "bullets and guns" because prohibition doesn't work, right?

You can tighten up background checks and mental health conditions, but crims can get a hold of guns just as they can get a hold of cocaine & pot -- and we know how those "experiments" in prohibition have worked.

Show us how you would effect prohibition. Then, speculate on what would happen to the promoters of your scheme come election time. (BTW, there is already a track record for what did happen, but maybe you have a "better" idea.)

[Hoosier lawyer]

20. Bans are not new

Obama and Clinton are talking ban. There is nothing new about bans. Why don't the gun grabbers talk about the underlying problems. The murder problems track closely with the poverty and drug problems, if they want to cut murder, create real jobs and provide education and health care that people can afford.

Gun violence is a symptom, not the problem. I am sick,sick,sick of the childish notion that passing more people control laws will fix anything.

It used to be as easy to buy a gun as it is to buy a hammer, cash and carry, and the nation was much safer. Our problem is not guns, our problem is poverty,hopelessness and the war on drugs. Get real.

[Callisto32]

24. .

:applause:

Now, beyond ending the "drug war" :puke: I'm not sure that government can do these things, at least in the long run. (I'm not even saying you are suggesting it can.) But still

:applause:

[spin]

25. WOW, someone agrees with me...

Well put, by the way.

We need to work together to elect politicians who have the intelligence, the willingness, and the courage to solve the problems you discussed. How can we find and support such individuals?

We could all start by recognizing the problem. As you said, "The murder problems track closely with the poverty and drug problems, if they want to cut murder, create real jobs and provide education and health care that people can afford."

Currently we are stuck in an argument about eliminating guns or allowing honest citizens to own guns for self defense.

It is simply impossible to eliminate guns in our society. You might be able to convince honest citizens to turn their weapons in. All that would accomplish is to enable criminals to pursue their professions with far less danger. Criminals fear armed homeowners or citizens far more than they fear cops. Criminals can always obtain weapons. If people can smuggle tons of marijuana into this country, smuggling guns would pose no problem and prove very profitable.

On the other hand enabling every honest citizen to have a weapon in his home for protection or the right to carry a weapon concealed will not eliminate violence either. It will, however, help some honest citizens defend themselves against criminals.

But if we can solve the causes of violence, we can all live in a far more peaceful society. People would still own guns. Hunters, target shooters and collectors would spend their cash on firearms. Other citizens would buy LCD TVs, computers and gaming machines with their hard owned money.

It wouldn't be paradise, but it would be an improvement over what we have today.

[iverglas]

26. the really funny thing

Why don't the gun grabbers talk about the underlying problems. The murder problems track closely with the poverty and drug problems, if they want to cut murder, create real jobs and provide education and health care that people can afford.

is that firearms control advocates actually talk about all those things.

You know -- how one of the favourite memes around here is how nobody can figure out why so many "liberals" (in quotation marks because it's not my usage of the word) just won't stand up for that Are Kay Bee Eh? thing?

"Liberals". The people who DO talk about all those things.

As compared to all the people on the US political scene who DON'T talk about all those things ... who are strangely vocal and concerned about that Are Kay Bee Eh? thing ...


Gun violence is a symptom, not the problem.

Sez you. People affected by it tend to see it as a wee tad of a problem.

Adherents of the Repeated Meme

I am sick,sick,sick of the childish notion that passing more people control laws will fix anything.

Geez. Is your brother/sister a Hoosier doctor maybe? Or maybe s/he just plays one on internet discussion boards.

Perhaps an aspirin ...

[SteveM]

16. How do you feel about carrying guns in the open?

[spin]

27. Several problems with open carry...

1) It makes people nervous. If the roughly 500,000 concealed weapons permit holders in Florida were required to carry their weapons in the open, the tourist trade would suffer. We all get a little tired of snowbirds clogging up our roads, but they do contribute to the economy.

2) A gun is a fairly valuable item, why tempt a criminal. Most concealed weapons holders try not to advertise the fact that they are packing heat. Most avoid wearing clothing that might reveal that fact, like photographers vests or caps with an NRA logo.

3) Most people who legally carry a gun are polite, courteous individuals. First impressions are important. Carrying a S&W .357 on your belt in the open causes people to overlook your inner person and merely assume you have a Rambo personality.

[iverglas]

29. spin indeed

1) It makes people nervous.

Isn't the whole idea that having people promenading around with pop-guns in their pantaloons is supposed to deter crime?

Why wouldn't the world and her dog WANT to know this was going on? Why wouldn't it make them feel SAFE??

2) A gun is a fairly valuable item, why tempt a criminal.

But, but, criminals are supposed to ASSUME that everybody on the promenade has a pop-gun in his/her pantaloons, and thus be deterred from trying to rob/rape/ridicule them.

So why wouldn't a criminal just assume a pop-gun and do the deed on spec??

3) Most people who legally carry a gun are polite, courteous individuals. First impressions are important. Carrying a S&W .357 on your belt in the open causes people to overlook your inner person and merely assume you have a Rambo personality.

Gosh. Aren't people just the silliest things?

Imagine thinking that some moron wandering the streets with a gun wasn't really just a pussycat under that ugly, hostile, aggressive exterior ...

[spin]

30. You do have a sense of humor...

I'm having some problems with a new firewall on my computer.

I needed a laugh.

Thanks

[Tejas]

19. France has riots in the streets, try again n/t

[iverglas]

28. what point can you imagine you have??

France has riots in the streets -- and ... ?

France has general strikes and socialist voters and politicians and universal health care and child care and job security and parental benefits ... and does not allow guns-à-go-go in said selfsame streets.

What could this possibly be telling you?

[benEzra]

32. You know you can't conceal a gun without a license in the USA, either, yes?

Except for Vermont and Alaska, concealed carry by unlicensed individuals is also a crime.

[TPaine7]

13. It's a pipe dream

Obama can't ban concealed carry nationwide. That's a fantasy that will excite some anti-gun extremists, but is politically impossible.

What Obama can actually do is veto nationwide concealed carry reciprocity. He can ensure that Congress must override him to liberalize gun rights in any way. He can make the Supreme Court do all the work of undoing the ravaging of the Second Amendment.

[facepalm]

31. The whole thing is a pipe dream

CCW reciprocity is typically done between the states by agreement between the legislatures or the AG's. Also, Obama can't veto anything if he doesn't win. At this point I am getting more and more pessimistic about our chances in November.

I think Obama is going to win the nomination. Clinton will probably drag it out another month or two but ultimately I think everyone is getting tired of her shit. Maybe I hang out with the wrong people, but all the rank and file here seem annoyed at her and sick of hearing her voice and seeing her face. She comes across as insincere and weaselly. It's a personality flaw, not an issue problem, though she has those too. It is fading a bit, but most of the Obama supporters I know are still decently enthusiastic about him. FWIW, my parent's hate Hillary and McCain but would vote for Hillary if she won. Bravo, only they live in NYC, which is not exactly a battleground state.

Looking past the convention, I get the feeling Obama is setting himself up to lose. In some ways, he really reminds me of Bush in early 92, before he lost to Clinton. Yes, the original Bush and the original Clinton. Despite technically being "on the other side" to Obama, Bush I had the same disconnect to rural working class people and it really hurt him a lot. I think a lot of these voters ultimately went to the other Texan running that year, Ross Perot. Now I think Obama is a lot more articulate than Bush I and he isn't facing an avalanche of criticism for bungling the economy so that plays to our favor. But I see Obama losing FL and PA by wide margins. Without those states, he has to take away a lot of the south from McCain and if there is one thing I know about Southern Democrats, it is that we are all armed to the teeth. Bibles are not exactly scarce either down here. I'm not saying I approve of this, but it is how things are.

Where do you guys see Obama winning besides the typical blue states? Realistically? Midwest?

[TPaine7]

14. Your life or your job?

I think this delivery man made the right choice.



It does say something about Obama's character and/or intellect that he wants to prevent self defense like this recent incident http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article.php?id=3250

The sad part is that Obama does not even attempt to link his intuition about concealed carry to any thing in the real world--like actual concealed carry statistics in states with liberal laws.

[SteveM]

18. Great post. Is this the first time pro-2A Dems have been quoted in MSM?

[derby378]

23. It's a first for Amendment II Democrats, I believe...

...so that's pretty cool. Hopefully it won't be the last. :hi:

[Longtooth]

21. I get real nervous when politicians talk about "common-sense" gun control.

That is a spin that can go down either road for miles and miles. I'd like a straight answer myself with out the political mumbojumbo.

[Name removed]

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