Guns for Darfur

[Hoosier lawyer]

I often find myself thinking that what the poor black people of Darfur need is some firepower and a few trainers. Am I crazy to think that a shipload of AKs and ammo would do more to stop the genocide, than a bunch of guys in powder blue helmets?

[Longtooth]

1. I'd rather arm Tibet first. But we can discuss it.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

2. Yes, crazy, but it's a start

A shipload of AKs wouldn't be much use if the genocide is government-sponsored (and it surely is).

The genocidal militias will have access to light artillery, light armor, maybe even helecopter gunships. Guys in blue helmets should have access to the same, and more, like maybe F16 planes. A bunch of guys with AKs is still vastly outgunned.

Give the people of Darfur the AKs. It might help, can't make things worse, maybe.

[Firethorn]

3. At least heavy weapons are more expensive...

The militias might have heavier weapons even if we provide light arms, but they still take more resources to use. It'd go a long way towards reducing the slaughter. If nothing else, a gunship takes a lot of maintenance to keep in the air, artillery can be mostly avoided, and light armor can be taken out, by hand if necessary, if you can eliminate the cover of footsoldiers. Heck, artillery can be overrun as well.

Include a few MANPADS and RPGs and such along with the shipment and I'm willing to bet that the genocide would stop almost overnight.

A weapon or army is useless if you're not willing to use it. That's the real problem with the blue helmets.

[bossy22]

4. nothing will really stop darfur

or any other type of genocide/war that is going on in africa. These are results of thousands of years of tribal fighting- and its silly to think that we can remedy the situation in 5 or so years. The borders are artifical- people in most parts of africa don't identify themselves with a country- rather a tribe or a community. Until you change the borders this type of stuff will continue to happen

[gorfle]

5. As I said in another post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=167951&mesg_id=168192

Quite frankly, in my unsubstantiated opinion I believe one of the biggest reasons we no rarely see successful uprisings by the people in favor of the people in this modern age is because by and large most of the people around the world are, sadly, disarmed. Instead, what amounts to essentially rival gangs of thugs and religious nuts battle it out to see which gang of murdering, thieving bandits and zealots can wrest control from the other, while millions of the people are brutalized and chased from their burned-out homes to refugee camp to refugee camp.

I've long thought that the solution to many of the areas of strife around the world is not to send shipments of rice but shipments of arms - and put them right into the hands of the people. The conflicts of the 20th century and today displace millions of people - people who have no option but to run. Would they too make a mess of it if they had the means to fight back? Maybe so. But at least they'd have a fucking chance.

According to the UNHCR there are some 9.2 million refugees in the world today. ( http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/news/opendoc.htm?tbl=NEWS&id=44463fed4 ) There is no guarantee that if armed these people could organize themselves to make their situations better than they currently are. But it is a virtual certainty that disarmed these people are at the whim of anyone who is armed.

It is interesting to note that there are 4 to 8 times as many firearm owners in the United States as there are refugees worldwide. I wonder what would happen if we were faced with similar situations as the refugees around the world faced?

Perhaps there is something to the sentiments of Isoroku Yamamoto when he is said to have said, "I would never invade the United States, there would be a gun behind every blade of grass."

It is a shitty situation when the solution to savagery and murder is providing more weapons for more savagery and murder. But sometimes a people must stand up to aggression, and in a gun fight it is unwise to show up with anything less than your own gun.

[iverglas]

6. crazy is not the word I use

The words I would use would get my post deleted.

[bossy22]

10. Ben Franklin

defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result- so who knows if flooding Africa with more guns might work...i though prefer to look at the reasons why this is happening which is found in the archives of history (thank you, European powers)

[apocalypsehow]

7. I hope you don't do much thinking out loud. Folks are going to start drawing up commitment papers.

[iverglas]

8. you know, usually they make me guffaw

or at least giggle.

For this particular meme, I can't even muster up a wry smile.

It's good to see it said out loud though. It's good to see the utter inhuman callousness (okay, I could be wrong, it could be utter stupidity) of the firearms fetishists on full display.

But it still turns my stomach to have to see it.

[apocalypsehow]

12. I'll have to take utter inhuman callousness for $200

because I don't believe it's possible to be that stupid and still have a functioning medullae oblongata.

[Hoosier lawyer]

22. you must be joking

I am truly impressed that you get on your moral high horse and call people names. The UN "peacekeepers" do not work, have not worked, and probably will not work. Instead of sitting around making mouth noises and crying crocodile tears, we should empower the villagers, the victims to defend themselves. I would imagine that the victims of gang rape,mutilation and slavery might not have a problem shooting back at their tormentors.

My father taught me to use the best tool for the job. If I need to make a house I would like a hammer and saw. If I need to fend off some raggedy ass militia bent on rape, I would like a rifle and plenty of cartridges. WTF do you want?

In your wisdom, why don't you explain to us simpletons a better,cheaper, faster way to help the victims of genocide.

[apocalypsehow]

24. "My father taught me to use the best tool for the job"

Too bad he neglected to teach you critical thinking skills, or the basics of what it means to be a decent human being. And here's one big hint for you, "counselor" ( :eyes: ): decent human beings don't idly speculate on what it'd be like to parachute crates of firearms and ammunition into a region that is already blood-soaked with misery thanks to their ubiquitous availability.

[piedmont]

27. "Ubiquitous availability." See, that's the problem-- they're not ubiquitously avaible,

and thus the victimized people of Darfur can't defend themselves.

[iverglas]

28. but you see, that's the really amazing thing

http://www.controlarms.org/latest_news/ak47report-pr260606.htm

They're CHEAP and they ARE widely available.

What do you think LED TO the current situation in Darfur???

http://internationalpost.blogspot.com/2006/11/africa-darfur-calender-of-events.html
(simply as a handy source)

2003

February-March : first armed squad actions in Darfour, the Liberation Movement of Sudan (LMS), calls for a total overthrow of the Khartoum regime. The government enlists militiamen, the janjaweeds (men on horse or camel).

There are now factions upon factions within factions in Sudan -- ALL OF THEM armed.

Unless you are proposing that every 18-month old child be equipped with an AK-47, YOU ARE MAKING NO SENSE.

Take 10 minutes of your life and learn something.

http://globalpolicy.igc.org/security/issues/sudan/2006/0406curse.htm

This is what AK-47s have done to Africa.

Strung across the shoulders of each cow keeper is what the Mandari call a "Perik".

This is a weathered and worn AK-47 Kalashnikov assault rifle and it gets its Mandari name from the sound it makes when it looses off its lethal rounds at a rate of four bullets per second. It is a sound which has become all too familiar to the Mandari. Until a fragile peace was declared nine months ago, the region was the battlefield for a 23-year civil war, which claimed two million lives. Isolated and self-sufficient, the Mandari have never before spoken to Western journalists about their way of life. It is a measure of their concern that they consented to talk to The Independent.

Sitting in Kwajroji, a camp of open shelters and mango trees in the wilderness to the north of Juba, the battered capital of southern Sudan, one of the herdsmen, Malual, said: "We need the Perik to protect our cows. We used to have spears and axes. But our lives have been changed by war - you must have a gun or else you will be robbed of your animals and killed like a dog. We have no choice. We must carry them."

Beside him, Andria Killa, 20, pointed towards his Chinese-made Kalashnikov: "My family bought ours for six cows. It is our custom never to sell cows. That is how important such things have become - we forget the customs. Last year, my cousin was killed by a gun. The Kalashni is the ruling power here, if you like it or not."

... Juru Bontend Mula, the 85-year-old supreme chief for the Mandari in the Juba region, said: "Before the guns, to take a life in a raid was a serious matter. It meant you were a great warrior but the life taken had to be atoned for. Both spear and warrior had to be cleansed. The gun makes that impossible. You cannot throw a spear at someone with a gun. Instead you shoot from far away - you don't look your enemy in the eye. You don't receive or pay blood money because you cannot know who carried out the killing. Life has become cheap."

[piedmont]

42. Then you must be easily amazed.

I don't know why on earth you actually thought that first link was some sort of support for the idea that Darfurans could easily acquire AKs. Yeah, there are a lot of AKs in the world, and a lot of them in Africa. Does that make them "cheap" for a poor dirt farmer in Darfur? Six cows ain't cheap, not in Africa or the U.S. or Canada.

"What do you think LED TO the current situation in Darfur???"
LOTS of things: the British conquering the region and lumping it in with Sudan, politicians who played on regional and tribal differences instead of seeking to unite the country, long term climate change and desertification, etc, etc. Some of those causes are similar to the ones that led to genocide-by-machete in Rwanda. That the SLA, JEM, Eastern Front, etc. popped into existence and then fought the government was a result, not a cause.

Even so, most of the populace didn't have anything to do with these groups, but are getting killed, robbed, raped, and run off their land just the same.

"Unless you are proposing that every 18-month old child be equipped with an AK-47, YOU ARE MAKING NO SENSE."
Well, unless you are proposing to take every weapon away from the government and Janjaweed, NEITHER ARE YOU, EVEN IF YOU SHOUT. And I'm not sure why you might think arming babies is sensible.

From your own quote:
"We need the Perik to protect our cows. We used to have spears and axes. But our lives have been changed by war - you must have a gun or else you will be robbed of your animals and killed like a dog. We have no choice. We must carry them."

Which is exactly why I said that for the people who need them, guns are not easy to get or cheap, but they are necessary.

And this is what machetes and clubs did to Rwanda:

"The explosion heard in the skies over Kigali at 9:40 on the night of April 6 caused no great alarm. The capital had been tense for weeks and the sounds of grenades and rifle fire hardly made anyone flinch anymore.

By morning, the disembowlment of a luckless country had begun. Guided by government troops, gangs of young thugs with clubs, machetes and spears rampaged through Kigali, hunting down members of the Tutsi tribe that until the 1950s had ruled the rival Hutus for centuries as feudal overlords.

At first, they chose their targets selectively, matching addresses with names on lists they carried with them, exhilarated by their thoroughness, they began killing anyone they felt like killing.

While the government–sponsored radio station, RTLM, exhorted "Kill the Tutsis or they will kill you!" the organized gangs of marauders went block by block doing just that. On one street corner, a Tutsi child lay wounded and a solder shouted something to a woman nearby.

The woman, 36 year old Muliana Mukanyarwaya, raised a club that bristled with protruding nails and sank it into the boy's skull.

www.medishare.org/rwanda_now.html

[iverglas]

43. more sickening misrepresentation

If you haven't yet been disabused of the meme that the genocide in Rwanda was perpetrated with the aid of no more than agricultural tools, you have managed to miss just the right ones among recent posts on this board, evidence of such luck that you should probably take up gambling as a career.

If you have not missed those posts, and you are still pretending to believe that the genocide in Rwanda was perpetrated with the aid of no more than agricultural tools, well, then, you're just no better than you oughta be, are you?

I knew more about the genocide in Rwanda a decade ago than you appear likely to be interested in learning today. So kindly don't copy and paste stuff at me about Radio Milles Collines and the exhortations to kill the Inkotanyi it broadcast for days while your Mr. Clinton sat on his fat ass and his hands refusing to jam its airwaves.

But you might try reading what you're copying and pasting, yourself: Guided by government troops.

Do you imagine that those government troops were armed with machetes?

I assure you they were not. I'll let you guess what they were armed with.

[Hoosier lawyer]

30. You must not be paying attention

either.

I didn't want to parachute in the arms without sending in some self defense instructors. You are missing the point. The weapon is not the thing, millions were hacked to death in Rwanda, did you blame the blades?

What do you propose that would work as quickly, economically and as well to provide these people with some kind of safety?

Also, what makes you think that you know me enough to judge my basic human decency? For all I know you are a decent human,I don't presume to judge your entire character by a few lines on a message board. Stick to the subject and leave the baseless attacks at home, you are less likely to make yourself look like an ass.

[iverglas]

31. why do you ask, gentle reader?

millions were hacked to death in Rwanda, did you blame the blades?

You appear to be implying that someone is blaming some object for something -- else why would you inquire whether s/he would blame another object for something else?

So why would you be implying such a thing?

This is just one of those fine examples of someone trying to make someone else look evil/stupid, and hitting the wrong target ...



oops! would have been worthwhile to read the rest of the drivel first:

Stick to the subject and leave the baseless attacks at home, you are less likely to make yourself look like an ass.

Indee, indeed. Once again, shoot: foot.

[Tejas]

34. If you'll notice

this is at least the second time you've asked what should be done and gotten only childish taunts in reply. Their contibutions of taunts/insults/giggling is a good indication that they do not have any clue whatsoever as to how the situation in Darfur can be improved.

Antis are like that, no guns no matter the need.

[apocalypsehow]

40. You got questions? I've got answers:

Query: "Also, what makes you think that you know me enough to judge my basic human decency?"

Answer:

"Guns for Darfur (OP title). I often find myself thinking that what the poor black people of Darfur need is some firepower and a few trainers. Am I crazy to think that a shipload of AKs and ammo would do more to stop the genocide, than a bunch of guys in powder blue helmets?"

Hope that clears that up.

Hoosier lawyer said: "I don't presume to judge your entire character by a few lines on a message board"

I'm not the one making odious statements such as the one quoted above. The second I do, feel free to judge away.

Hoosier lawyer said: "Stick to the subject and leave the baseless attacks at home, you are less likely to make yourself look like an ass"

LOL! You just brightened my afternoon with a good 'ole belly roar.

[iverglas]

26. RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!

One of our little chats just wouldn't be complete w/o somebody slavering over it ...

[Hoosier lawyer]

29. You must not be paying attention

Rape is a major problem in the conflict. It is one of the major tactics of these thugs. If you do not think it is worthy of mention, then that is your opinion.

[iverglas]

32. ooh, I'm following quite closely

I would imagine that the victims of gang rape,mutilation and slavery might not have a problem shooting back at their tormentors.

I'm seeing you appropriating someone else's voice and presuming to speak for them.

How come I can't find any record of any of these victims demanding AK-47s?

[Hoosier lawyer]

33. I don't recall seeing any records

of them asking for a leatherman,a Camelbac or the internet either, but I don't think it stretches the mind too much to imagine that they would like those too.

What you or I have seen is I am sure, a poor representation of all that the world has to offer. Only an egotistical person would think differently.

[bossy22]

13. different views

"It's good to see the utter inhuman callousness"

and sometimes playing humanitarian gets you bit in the ass. And i for one like to keep my ass bite free.

but then again im not god, so i can't predict the future

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

15. Good to know you would rather the innocent people die unarmed.

I'm sure that will make everyone feel better.

David

[apocalypsehow]

41. Good to know you're still inserting words into other people's mouths, while pretending you've made

some kind of rapier-witted point.

[Irreverend IX]

16. How would you deal with the violence in Africa?

The civilian self-defense strategy posited here might not be viable, and I suspect that most of Africa will be a chaotic mess for a few generations to come, but the "gun control" philosophy isn't going to do anything to help Africans achieve peace and order. Most African countries are such a mess that even if a civilian disarmament initiative was successful, which is doubtful in the first place, people would soon be able to get guns again one way or another. Whenever civilian disarmament happens, the first people to give up their weapons are generally the civilians who most need them with conditions get more chaotic and they have to protect themselves from the marauding criminal element.

[Hoosier lawyer]

23. read this

http://allafrica.com/stories/200804251276.html

BTW I am glad that logic and truth make heartless elitists like you laugh, or turn your stomach or what ever else you claim it does. Why don't you ever offer a better alternative for self defense? What should those poor victimized people do? Are their lives and liberty not worth defending?

[iverglas]

36. been taking the low road, have you?

It's really pretty hard to take someone seriously who gets his/her news and views from places like that.

Or did you find that article all by your lonesome?

Is there something about Ng'ang'a Mbugua that would make his opinion worthy of serious consideration, let alone adoption? Do tell us all you know about him that makes him a voice to be heeded in this matter.

By the way, is there some reason that any of us should be able to come up with an instant five-point five-week plan for solving the decades-long problems of the African continent just because you demand it?

Kinda like expecting the Democrats to come up with an instant plan for solving the Iraq mess they didn't create, I'd say.

The fact that you and your chums have produced your own plan, horrific and catastrophic as it would obviously be, really doesn't mean that anyone else must come up with a counter-plan before s/he can point out how horrific and catastrophic yours would obviously be and how purely agenda-driven and without concern for human security it plainly is.

[Hoosier lawyer]

38. Please explain how

people who are only running and dying now, being empowered to fight back, will make the situation worse. Is it that you value the safety of the aggressors?

[iverglas]

39. yes, that's it, you got me

Is it that you value the safety of the aggressors?

That is the only reasonable inference from everything I've said on the matter. And that is exactly the question that would arise in the mind of every right-thinking person who read what I've said on the matter.

You sussed me out. I am an agent for the diamond merchants of the world. Or the oil merchants. I get confused sometimes, but I know it's something like that. Mark Thatcher was my lover. They were heady days, the stealth flights in aircraft, the false flight plans, the cargoes of AK-47s loaded while backs were turned and money slipped from bank account to bank account. I'm retired now, but I cannot bear to think that all my efforts would be for nought and the beneficiaries of the largesse we spread across the continent might come to harm. After all, I didn't do it for the money, I did it for love, and it would be a betrayal of that noble emotion were I not to do my utmost, on every internet board in the cyberworld, to perpetuate everything we worked for.

Ssh, now. We don't want everybody knowing. Let's make it our little secret.

[Jack_DeLeon]

9. De Oppresso Liber...

is the green beret motto. Which roughly translates "to free the oppressed".

One of their missions used to be a way for the US government to help people in positions like this with arms and training so that they could fight for their own freedom, or atleast give it a good try, without us having to get more militarily involved.

It takes two sides fighting for their to be a war, if only one side is fighting then its just genocide.

[gorfle]

14. Exactly.

Having the ability to overthrow oppression is one of the founding tenets of this country. It should be an ability for all of humanity. There are some 9.2 million displaced people in the world today who suffer under the oppression of petty tyrants and gangs of thugs and zealots, and they have no recourse but to flee and hope for intervention by armed outsiders coming to their aid.

You will never find me in that position, I can tell you that.

[bossy22]

11. if it came down to it

i'd rather send them more guns then send our troops in as peace keepers- if the UN wants to do it- go ahead- but im sick of humanitarian missions

has anybody ever realized that when 2 people are having an arguement and a third guy steps in to calm the situation down- both of the original 2 guys get angry with the 3rd?....could this be the reason why "they" hate us?

[dger11]

17. Interesting phenomenon. It often happens to police officers

as well, when they intervene in domestic disputes. The two people feuding gang up on the "other". The real humanitarian solutions: either both sides are armed, or both sides are disarmed. I think everyone knows which solution is actually possible. Even if there were no firearms, they'd use machetes.

[bossy22]

18. in this case

the real solution is to redraw all the borders in africa- thats the only way these things will stop. When you have 2 groups of people who have hated each other for 500 years and you stick them under one roof- what do you expect to happen? European colonialism fucked up africa, and we are seeing the effects of that now. No amount of UN or any countries troops can stop it.

[gorfle]

19. Perhaps.

Perhaps. But even if you re-draw borders by some standard, the fact of the matter is there are some ten million people forced to flee war-torn areas of the world, like Africa, because they have no means to resist.

I mean, when you see these thugs in action, it's not like we are talking about regular troops. We're talking about bands of thugs dressed in hand-me-downs loaded into the back of an ancient pick-up-truck waving AK-47s, running roughshod over the countryside burning people out of their homes.

If just one of these villages were armed to the extent of your typical neighborhood in most of the US these thugs wouldn't stand a chance.

But rather than work to give these people the means to resist oppression, we've got people actively working to make sure they never do, all the while congratulating themselves on their "humanitarian" work they do on behalf of such people. If these people had the means to secure their own freedom and security maybe they wouldn't need our humanitarian aid!

[SteveM]

20. Related note, what are the laws governing Iraqi civilians & gun possession?

[maxidivine]

25. Iraqis may have weapons

Iraqi civilians are allowed some variation on one rifle per household. They have also had semi-organized neighborhood watch groups in some areas, which I believe worked out pretty well, in the areas that aren't run by murderous sectarian groups. Hostility is determined by intent and actions, not possession.

Also, I can't help but notice that some posters seem to believe that guns are the cause of the violence in some of Africa, or that it makes the violence worse. Maybe they have forgotten the incredible amounts of destruction wreaked by people armed with machetes? And no, the cause of that violence is not the availability of machetes.

Violence is an unfortunate part of life. It isn't always a bad thing. The violence in africa has nothing to do with guns. It has everything to do with murderous gangs roving the land unopposed, not a single element of effective resistance to be found. If the villagers could turn away the onslaughts they would be able to carry on life as they know it, and I firmly believe that stability would slowly grow over the region.

[Tejas]

21. From the looks of it,

the blue helmets may have their work cut out for them.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/Topics/Guns_In_East_Africa.html

With this much going on, looks like the powers-that-be are biting off more than they can chew......Not that it has ever stopped them/antis before.

[Hoosier lawyer]

35. good stuff there

[iverglas]

37. ah, I see

Out of everything available at that site, you decided that Ng'ang'a Mbugua was your authority of choice.

Hmm.

[zanne]

44. Yes, you are crazy to think that. nt