More guns, ..more firearms deaths.

[russ1943]

April 24, 2008;
States in the South and West with weak gun laws and high rates of gun ownership lead the nation in overall firearm death rates………….
.………….the five states with the highest per capita gun death rates were Louisiana, Alaska, Montana, Tennessee and Alabama. Each of these states had a per capita gun death rate far exceeding the national per capita gun death rate of 10.32 per 100,000.
By contrast, states with strong gun laws and low rates of gun ownership had far lower rates of firearm-related death. Ranking last in the nation for gun death was Hawaii, followed by Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Jersey and New York.

http://www.vpc.org/press/0804gundeath.htm


An analysis of CDC data.

[derby378]

1. Looks like the VPC forgot about Texas...

Down here, we have concealed handgun licenses, gun shows every other weekend, legal ownership of full-auto firearms, and more handguns and hunting rifles than you can shake a stick at. And where does Texas rank on the VPC list? Number 26. Wow.

By contrast, California ranks 32nd on the list, despite its strict gun-control laws and its high-profile violent crime rates. Go figure.

Back to the drawing board, Sugarmann...

[east texas lib]

2. Doh!

I hate it when that happens!:hi:

[Longtooth]

13. Don't look at that man behind the curtain!

[Tejas]

17. not only do we have CHL,

loaded concealed carry in a vehicle is legal. Since anyone with an automobile "could" be carrying, with the potential number of weapons on the street and being 26th on the list must really be a mind-boggler for the antis.

[derby378]

29. Imagine that!

I think the VPC needs to call the waaaaahmbulance, myself.

[pipoman]

3. Could there be other factors which the Bradys are ignoring?

Like poverty rates? Lets see...

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104529.html

The national average poverty rate according to this page is 12.6% in 2003/2004

Louisiana=16.8%
Alaska=9.4% (the land of the midnight sun and weeks of perpetual darkness)
Montana=14.6%
Tennessee=15%
Alabama=16%


Hawaii=8.9%
Mass.=9.7%
Rhode Island=11.5%
New Jersey=8.3%
New York=14.6%

Naa, couldn't be any other factors at play here... :sarcasm:

[pipoman]

4. Lets have a look at suicide rates shall we?

National= 11(per 100k)
Louisiana=11.2 rank #32
Alaska=19.7 #3 (the land of the midnight sun and weeks of perpetual darkness)
Montana=22 #1
Tennessee=14.4 #13
Alabama=11.7 #28


Hawaii=8.4 #44
Mass.=7.5 #47
Rhode Island=6.6 #48
New Jersey=6.1 #50
New York=6.2 #49

hmmm...probably no correlation here huh? This is what has lost the Bradys all credibility, drawing dishonest conclusions.


Edit to add link http://www.suicidology.org/associations/1045/files/2005datapgs.pdf

[WWFZD]

5. Suicide v Homicide

The VPC, the Brady's and their acolytes seldom differentiate between the two. Not out of ignorance or by accident, desperate times calling for desperate measures and whatnot.
It always reminds of that All in the Family episode where Gloria, espousing gun control, cries "But daddy do you know how many people commit suicide with a gun in this city every year" to which Archie responds "Would ya preferred they'da jumped outta windas".

[Longtooth]

12. Especially when you consider that all suicides are also homicides.

Yep, figures don't lie but . . . . . .

[jmg257]

6. Never mind - got it! nt

[Herman74]

7. Wow. The 5 states with the highest per capita firearm death rates are RED states,

states where the most of the electorate consistently has opposed valuing human life over property rights, where most of the electorate stands with these people here:



On the other hand, the five states with the lowest rates of gun death rates are all BLUE states, states with a more progressive citizenry, lower rates of gun ownership, and stronger gun laws. In supporting gun control, we progressives are guided by the notion that:

"If no one had a gun, no one would die by the gun." Such a simple concept. Too bad it is beyond the understanding of the gun nuts.

As for me, I oppose Dick Cheney and all that he stands for, for I value human life.

With whom, dear reader, do you stand?

[gorfle]

14. Absolutely true.

"If no one had a gun, no one would die by the gun." Such a simple concept. Too bad it is beyond the understanding of the gun nuts.

Absolutely true.

Here's another trueism for you. If no one had a gun, no one can resist tyranny by the gun.

We suffer gun misuse because the alternative, no guns, leaves us at the mercy of those with guns.

This is also a simple concept. But also an important one. Important enough that our founding fathers enumerated it in our Constitution.

[Herman74]

36. Uh, are you thinking clearly today?

"If no one had a gun, no one can resist tyranny by the gun." -- gorfle

Buddy, if no one had a gun, no one would be able to commit tyranny with a gun.

[Testament]

49. Except that...

you're obviously misreading what he said, in that we never talk about everyone in the world giving up their guns because that just won't ever happen, nor would it be a good thing. Bans don't affect the government, or the police, and from looking at the increase of handgun crime in the UK, the criminals don't get affected either.

It would be tyranny by the gun to those that did give up their guns, whether that tyranny came from criminals or the government, it depends where and when it is.

[gorfle]

63. Quite clearly, thanks.

Buddy, if no one had a gun, no one would be able to commit tyranny with a gun.

You can be certain, Herman, no matter how draconian the gun laws get the people in power will always have them. Bank on it.

So the question then becomes, do you want the people in power to be the only people trusted with guns?

[WWFZD]

16. Another truism

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will soon do the plowing for those who don't.

Let's ban swords and plows too, utopia awaits!

[iverglas]

19. uh oh

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=166506

Montana's governor is a gun-luvvin Democrat, from what I gather. (Although yes, I imagine the stats come from an earlier date.)

Red/blue seems to be becoming less significant. I would expect that the more the right-wing anti-firearms control lobby gets its claws into the Democratic Party, and the more betrayal of the basic principle that public policy should be made in the public interest you see in Democrat-governed states, the more the line in this regard will be blurred.

[Firethorn]

62. Nah, the 'gun nuts' understand a simpler truth...

<i>"If no one had a gun, no one would die by the gun." Such a simple concept. Too bad it is beyond the understanding of the gun nuts.</i>

That, if no one had a gun, most of those that currently die by the gun would now die by knife, rope, and pill*. That thugs would simply carry knife, hammer, or bat instead. Just as deadly in most situations, a lot quieter as well.

An 80 year old grandmother with a gun has a much better chance against a 20 year old thug with a gun than that 80 year old granny has with a knife versus the 20 year old with a knife.

We tend to look more at total murders than 'gun murders' or 'gun death'. If you wish to take yourself out of this world, how you do it is not much our concern. We'd like for you to get help, of course. Failing that, taking yourself out in a mannor safe to others is preferable. Ramming your car into oncoming traffic because you want to commit suicide** is a foul play. Please, do us a favor, you want to commit a spree-murder suicide news special, practice on yourself first.

*Most of those gun deaths are by suicide. Japan has a higher suicide rate than the USA has combined murder and suicide rates. We figure substitution would happen most of the time if guns weren't available.
**It's happened, I don't have the link handy, unfortuantly.

[Firethorn]

68. Nah, the 'gun nuts' understand a simpler truth...

"If no one had a gun, no one would die by the gun." Such a simple concept. Too bad it is beyond the understanding of the gun nuts.

That, if no one had a gun, most of those that currently die by the gun would now die by knife, rope, and pill*. That thugs would simply carry knife, hammer, or bat instead. Just as deadly in most situations, a lot quieter as well.

An 80 year old grandmother with a gun has a much better chance against a 20 year old thug with a gun than that 80 year old granny has with a knife versus the 20 year old with a knife.

We tend to look more at total murders than 'gun murders' or 'gun death'. If you wish to take yourself out of this world, how you do it is not much our concern. We'd like for you to get help, of course. Failing that, taking yourself out in a manner safe to others is preferable. Ramming your car into oncoming traffic because you want to commit suicide** is a foul play. Please, do us a favor, you want to commit a spree-murder suicide news special, practice on yourself first.

*Most of those gun deaths are by suicide. Japan has a higher suicide rate than the USA has combined murder and suicide rates. We figure substitution would happen most of the time if guns weren't available.
**It's happened, I don't have the link handy, unfortunately.

[slackmaster]

8. Fine example of cherry-picking

What about Vermont?

California?

District of Columbia?

[jmg257]

9. Weird - in 2003 the states with the lowest motor vehicle death rates were the same states who

had the lowest firearm death rates (and also similar to VPC's data for 2005 - same sources used=CDC)...

2003 Motor Vehicle Death Rate per 100,000
United States 15.3

Mississippi--- 31.3
Montana------- 27.4
South Dakota-- 27.2
Wyoming ------ 27.1
Arkansas------ 26.2
Alabama------- 23.6
...
...
Hawaii-------- 11.1
New Hampshire- 10
Rhode Island-- 9.3
New Jersey---- 9.1
Connecticut--- 8.2
New York------ 8.1
Massachusetts- 8



2003 State
2003 Firearms Death Rate per 100,000
United States 10.0

Dis/Columbia-- 22.3
Louisiana----- 19.9
Alaska-------- 17.4
Nevada-------- 16.9
Mississippi--- 16.4
Arizona ------ 15.7
...
...
New Jersey---- 5.3
New Hampshire- 5
Connecticut--- 4.9
New York------ 4.9
Rhode Island-- 3.6
Hawaii-------- 3.2
Massachusetts- 3.2

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/


Strange...I wonder what the association is?

[krispos42]

10. Absolutely expected

And if the blue states had a ban on green-painted automobiles I'd bet their rates of green-painted-automobile deaths would be markedly lower than that of the red states.

But only a pompous fool would stand up to a podium and thunder and blast about how lower rates of green-painted-automobile deaths meant the highways were safer, and only an idiot would believe them and parrot them.






The solid area (in blue) represents the trend for the entire United States while the lines (in red) are the trends for each region.


New England: Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont

Middle Atlantic: New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania

East North Central: Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin

West North Central: Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota

South Atlantic: Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, SouthCarolina, Virginia, West Virginia

East South Central: Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi, Tennessee

West South Central: Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Texas

Mountain: Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming

Pacific: Alaska, California, Hawaii, Oregon, Washington



The UK's gun homicide rate is at historic lows. Their overall homicide rate is at historic highs. I wouldn't call that progress.

[virginia mountainman]

11. VPC?!?

What a load of hooey, I cannot believe people still post uhmm "information" from that repeatatly debunked "outfit" in here...

Take that shit somewhere else.

[TPaine7]

15. VPC indeed!

Once you've read even a little about gun control--assuming an open mind and sampling from both sides--you realize the VPC is a dishonest hack organization. Ditto for the Brady Campaign.

It's like quoting Pravda during the cold war.

[bossy22]

25. i remember there used to be a link on the VPC's website to a study

that they said "showed" that the majority of americans want handguns banned

it went something like this (the poll question)

which law are you more favorable too
legalization of machine guns
banning of all handguns by civilians


its no longer on their website from what i know.

they make the brady campaign look like the NRA

[Testament]

50. I partly agree...

I think the VPC is just crazy, and have thought that their actions are for nefarious reasons. Maybe they aren't, but they certainly have a lot of unethical "studies" up their sleeves. However, I don't think the Brady Campaign is anything other than misguided, emotional, and thus non-logical souls who's hearts are in the right place (lower violence) however what they propose, just won't do anything good, and will likely make the situation much worse.

[applegrove]

18. Now that is a pretty simple fact. Glad you posted.

[bossy22]

20. i see someone

is selectively thinking

[applegrove]

22. What exactly does "selectively thinking" mean. I know it is supposed

to be something bad. But I cannot help but take it as a compliment. At least you said I was thinking. I know the NRA types have all sorts of talking points given to them by their masters. Is "selectively thinking" a talking point from the NRA? Do tell. Cause one cannot help but select facts when one is thinking. And this post was a good one. A simple fact: more guns - more gun deaths by suicide, murder, accidents. It is a simple and plain truth.

[bossy22]

23. not necessarily

the united states has the most guns of any country- yet our firearm homicide rate is not the highest in the world

all you see is a weak correlation

correlation does not equal causation

for example- when as america banned slavery, carbon in the atmosphere increased....so does that mean slavery reduces carbon in the atmosphere?

[applegrove]

24. US death by firearms rate is the highest in the West. That is how

you compare. Not by pitting poorer countries with lesser police against the USA. See how that works?

[bossy22]

26. ahh

so more guns doesnt necessarily mean more firearm homicides - there are social factors involved

ill be honest- i tend to ignore suicide data when it comes to guns- its silly to believe that if a gun wasnt present someone wouldnt be able to kill suicide- many countries with more restrictive gun laws have higher suicide rates

[applegrove]

27. Yes. Societal factors do make a difference. As do gun laws and culture.

[TPaine7]

28. Simple and plain truthiness is more like it . . .

It is a simple truism that if there were no guns there would be no gun deaths. That would entail disarming the police, the military, and the secret service as well as criminals and citizens. Smaller, weaker, older, and more isolated people would be prey to the bigger, the stronger, the younger, and the gang-affiliated (or those with big families). There would be lots of deaths, many more people would be deprived of their rights, but at least there would be no gun crime. That is a fact, I agree, but a very trivial one.

As for gun deaths increasing as the number of guns increases in the real world, can you produce evidence of this (from a reputable source)?

[applegrove]

30. The OP is good enough for me. And don't take my arguments to wooly lengths

extremes.

[Tejas]

32. Be thankful you're not a gun-loon or

you'd really get your feelings hurt around here :)

The arguments on both sides get stretched beyond belief at times, but at least for one side there's a Bill of Rights to fall back on when it comes to the truth.

;)

[TPaine7]

33. Self-deleted

[TPaine7]

34. I guess I've read too much VPC and Brady stuff

that couldn't stand up to the simplest scrutiny to trust anything they say.

My reason for going to the "extreme" is that only in the extreme case is the "more guns = more gun deaths or gun crime" obviously true. Gun crime in the US has fallen simultaneously with gun numbers increasing, and concealed carry laws being liberalized. That is an actual fact. And it is not based on information from an organization as suspect as the VPC.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. How do you expalin the district of columbia?

[SteveM]

66. And what do you propose? I'll wait.

[bossy22]

21. i just want to see

what the VPC and brady co say once the supreme court rules the 2A an individual right

[Tejas]

31. They'll say the NRA bribed the SCOTUS

Crazy is as crazy does.

:)

[bossy22]

38. Sadly you are right

they will have a sepcial on their website with either these 2 titles

"NRA paid justices destroy gun laws"

"Supreme court makes deadly mistake"

[jody]

35. Thanks for posting one of the most stupid articles written by gun-grabbers. I know BO's supporters

will try to distance him from such absolutely pure BS but I don't believe they will have much success with independent voters.

BO's history on such divisive, polarizing issues is music to the ears of GOP strategists who will use proven Roveian tactics to gain votes.

With friends like VPC, we Dems move closer to losing another general election.

[tucsonlib]

42. Respectfully, May I Make Some Suggestions?

Gun-Rights advocates have legitimate, powerful arguments they can use to back up their views. However, just like the anti-gun folks, they too often blow it by behaving like paranoid, ignorant rubes.

So, some suggestions:

1. Ease up on over-the-top name calling (e.g. "gun-grabbers"). Bill Clinton was in office for 8 years. Tell me, how many of your guns were "grabbed" during that time? Sure, the anti-gun folks passed a couple of stupid, meaningless restrictions - like banning hi-cap mags and "assault" rifles based on cosmetics. But it only made them look ridiculous and out of touch. No one is gonna be "grabbing" any of our guns. Not the Dems, and (probably) not the Republicans, either. Ain't gonna happen. Trust me. So stop demonizing BO and others based solely on their 2nd Amendment views. There are more pressing issues these days.

2. Get over your irrational, inexplicable obsession with Mrs. Brady. She's just a lady whose husband was gravely wounded by an idiot with a handgun. She's not evil. She's not the enemy. Constantly invoking her name as if she were the devil incarnate makes you appear irrational and paranoid.

3. Break off your love affair with the NRA. They're a lobbying group for Gun Manufacturers, fer Christ's sake! Any respect they have for you, or for the Bill of Rights, extends only as far as their bottom line. They are using you.

I hope you take these suggestions in the spirit in which they are being given. Like any complex, controversial issue, there are legitimate arguments on both sides. Zealots of all stripes should be denounced.

[bossy22]

43. good points

"Break off your love affair with the NRA. They're a lobbying group for Gun Manufacturers, fer Christ's sake! Any respect they have for you, or for the Bill of Rights, extends only as far as their bottom line. They are using you."

i thought that SAAMI was the lobbying group for manufactures

[tucsonlib]

45. You May Be Right

But I've seen both organizations labeled as "industry groups". And from what I've observed, the NRA looks after the interests of the industry first, not the individual.

[Irreverend IX]

46. The NRA doesn't take money from gun manufacturers as a matter of policy.

All their money comes from their 4 million dues-paying members. It's the very definition of a grassroots movement, unlike the VPC, Brady Campaign and other anti-gun groups, which are run in a centralized, top-down fashion with most of their funding coming from Joyce Foundation grants.

[iverglas]

48. ah, we do like to equivocate ...

Most people don't realize there are two animals here: the NRA and the NRA-ILA -- Institute for Legislative Action, I believe it is.

http://www.nraila.org/

The NRA isn't a movement, it's a club.

The NRA-ILA is a lobbying group.

http://www.nraila.org/About/

In NRA Headquarters in Fairfax, Va., and in offices in Washington, D.C.,
and in Sacramento, Calif., the Institute employs a staff of more than 80,
with a team of full-time lobbyists defending Second Amendment issues
on Capitol Hill, in state legislatures and in local government bodies.

https://secure.nraila.org/Contribute.aspx

Contributions to NRA-ILA are not tax deductible as charitable contributions
for Federal Income Tax purposes

Do we know where the NRA-ILA gets its money?

I kinda doubt it. But if you do, do tell.

It's handy when people say "NRA" and don't realize they're really talking about its lobbying arm, isn't it?


My my. Look what the NRA-ILA is applauding today:

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/

A Wright County, Minn., homeowner woke early Tuesday morning to find two burglars prowling in his home. The homeowner chased the burglars out of his house, firing at one of the intruders, then witnessed them drive away in a Chevy Tahoe that had been reported stolen. Police used the homeowner’s account of the getaway car--and the bullet hole in its door--to track down the burglars, who are also suspected of two bank robberies in Cokato, Minn. They are now in police custody.

We must have missed the new Minnesota law that allows people to shoot at people in vehicles as they drive away ... I mean, I'm sure an upstanding outfit like the NRA wouldn't be applauding people doing stupid, dangerous and illegal things with guns ...

[bossy22]

51. ahh did the article say anything about

shooting the at the intruder while they were in the vehicle?

"A Wright County, Minn., homeowner woke early Tuesday morning to find two burglars prowling in his home. The homeowner chased the burglars out of his house, firing at one of the intruders, then witnessed them drive away in a Chevy Tahoe that had been reported stolen. Police used the homeowner’s account of the getaway car--and the bullet hole in its door--to track down the burglars, who are also suspected of two bank robberies in Cokato, Minn. They are now in police custody."

[iverglas]

52. Pardon me!

So -- he shot at someone who was running away and missed and hit the car?

Wot a hero!


Special delivery for you:

http://www.startribune.com/local/west/17854149.html

The homeowner awoke about 5:50 a.m. Tuesday to find two thieves in his Victor Township house. He grabbed his gun and fired as he chased one of them down the stairs and into the yard. The suspect got in a Chevy Tahoe that had been reported stolen and took off, the sheriff said.

The homeowner went back inside and found that the second suspect had fled out a window and that several items had been taken, the sheriff said.

Tuesday afternoon, deputies found the Tahoe at an elementary school in Cokato, Minn., with a bullet hole in the side.

Now, unless he was a really fancy lousy shot, I just don't see him doing that shooting inside the house and hitting the truck outside.

So I'm still wondering whether there's a law in Minnesota that says it's okay to shoot at people who are running away ...


Do us another dance, now!

[Tejas]

54. prevention: 147 grains a dose

It's related to the possibility of the felon returning to re-attempt the felony (or possibly worse). Front/side/back, doesn't matter, felonious actions will get you killed nowadays.

[iverglas]

55. and the law you cite

is?

I assume you're citing one, that being what I asked for and all.

[Tejas]

56. Texas Statutes n/t

faux cluelessness sicketates me.


edited from "penal code" to "statutes".

[iverglas]

57. oh dear, I'll have to spell it out

Could you QUOTE the law you cite?

You'll want to be sure to specify which Texas statute applies in Minnesota, now.

[Tejas]

60. The NRA is Minnesota-specific? n/t

[iverglas]

61. taking it from the top

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=168524&mesg_id=168659

My my. Look what the NRA-ILA is applauding today:

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen /

A Wright County, Minn., homeowner woke early Tuesday morning to find two burglars prowling in his home. The homeowner chased the burglars out of his house, firing at one of the intruders, then witnessed them drive away in a Chevy Tahoe that had been reported stolen. Police used the homeowner’s account of the getaway car--and the bullet hole in its door--to track down the burglars, who are also suspected of two bank robberies in Cokato, Minn. They are now in police custody.

We must have missed the new Minnesota law that allows people to shoot at people in vehicles as they drive away ... I mean, I'm sure an upstanding outfit like the NRA wouldn't be applauding people doing stupid, dangerous and illegal things with guns ...

I'll wait for you to catch up, now.

[TPaine7]

58. I'm pro gun and I disagree.

You cannot legally shoot a fleeing unarmed felon outside your house.

I would not shoot a fleeing, unarmed felon inside my house, even if I lived in a jurisdiction that allowed it. It is not moral, not being self-defense.

A felon running away from me would have to be carrying a victim or running toward an intended victim to get shot.

[Tejas]

59. I'm pro self-preservation

"You cannot legally shoot a fleeing unarmed felon outside your house."

Texas Penal Code: Chapter 9


"I would not shoot a fleeing, unarmed felon inside my house, even if I lived in a jurisdiction that allowed it. It is not moral, not being self-defense."

Assuming the threat is over could be the last mistake you ever make. That mistake could/would be an immoral decision concerning your loved ones.



Looks like we'll just have to disagree.

[Firethorn]

65. NRA-ILA's money

Do we know where the NRA-ILA gets its money?

I know where a couple hundred came from... Me.

We must have missed the new Minnesota law that allows people to shoot at people in vehicles as they drive away ... I mean, I'm sure an upstanding outfit like the NRA wouldn't be applauding people doing stupid, dangerous and illegal things with guns ...

Didn't hit an innocent, allowed the police to apprehend the criminals. Seems a pretty good shoot to me. We know the shot hit the truck, but we don't know the rest of the details.

Yes, I'm a bloodthirsty barbarian. Who happens to believe that criminals aren't precious flowers that are turning their lives around. Especially during the act. That criminals should be resisted at every opportunity.

The clue here would be that the homeowner isn't in jail, and the burglars are. I figure if there was question that it was a bad shooting that the homeowner would be in jail. Look up Tony Martin for something along that scale. Of course, Tony actually killed one of his invaders.

[jody]

44. Thanks and I choose to ignore your one-sided understanding of DU's history from 2001 to the present

re the natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms for self-defense, the specific question that SCOTUS will answer in D.C. v. Heller.

Have a good day! :hi:

[pipoman]

47. It is the opinion of many

pro 2nd Dems that the position taken by BO and HRC on gun issues is responsible for past electoral losses. I and others believe that the alienation of southern, blue collar and rural Dems centers around ideas and misinformation espoused by the many faces of the Brady group of zealots. My belief is that regardless of the likelihood that new gun laws will be enacted during a BO presidency, as long as BO refuses to assure the many rural and blue collar dems that he will protect the 2nd as an individual right and leave gun issues alone, he will loose many voters...voters that the party needs. If gun issues are indeed not as important as other issues which could be advanced by a BO presidency, why would he refuse to make the commitments necessary to secure the votes of this huge voting block?

Further I am not an NRA member, while their positions may parallel that of gun makers they also parallel the interests of millions of gun owners, sport shooters and hunters. After all where is the ACLU on this issue? The 2nd is the only right completely abandoned by the ACLU. Without the NRA who would lobby for the millions of gun owners interests?

In short I believe that urban and self proclaimed intellectual Dems will once again make this race painfully close when it wouldn't need to be. I will continue to speak out against idiotic party positions which may cost the party a win.

[Tejas]

53. Maybe, just maybe

Gun-Rights advocates have legitimate, powerful arguments they can use to back up their views. However, just like the anti-gun folks, they too often blow it by behaving like paranoid, ignorant rubes.

Call me crazy, but maybe gun-loons get loony because antis constantly attempt to chip away at the 2nd Amendment? It's not exactly a city ordinance we're talking about you know, please don't treat it as such.


"1. ((1))Ease up on over-the-top name calling (e.g. "gun-grabbers"). Bill Clinton was in office for 8 years. Tell me, how many of your guns were "grabbed" during that time? Sure, the anti-gun folks passed ((2))a couple of stupid, meaningless restrictions - like banning hi-cap mags and "assault" rifles based on cosmetics. But it only made them look ridiculous and out of touch. No one is gonna be "grabbing" any of our guns. Not the Dems, and (probably) not the Republicans, either. Ain't gonna happen. Trust me. So stop demonizing BO and others based solely on their 2nd Amendment views. ((3))There are more pressing issues these days."

((1))Haven't been around the Gungeon long, have you? If you own a firearm, sooner or later you'll be labeled a knuckle-dragger, baby killer etc etc etc. Somewhere there's a line by an anti saying how we'll have 140,000 trained killers "loose on the streets" soon (in reference to our troops). Kind've hard to play nice in a debate with jerks like that.

((2))"stupid, meaningless restrictions" - you mean, as in a TEN year ban? Nice that you think that's all that happened, looked at a California-legal AR or AK lately? The repercussions are still reverberating.
That said, the AWB we mention nowadays blows away the '94 Ban. Try looking at the current HR1022 and then post what you think can't happen.

((3)) Correct, there are societal problems that demand much more attention than hating/banning an inanimate object. Heck if I know how to get the Fascists around here to concentrate on those problems instead of trying to disarm me. Mention doing something about criminals and the antis scatter like roaches.



"2. Get over your irrational, inexplicable obsession with Mrs. Brady. She's just a lady whose husband was gravely wounded by an idiot with a handgun. She's not evil. She's not the enemy. Constantly invoking her name as if she were the devil incarnate makes you appear irrational and paranoid."

To a certain extent, "Brady" is a generality/figure of speach. "brady" also includes for example:

Jessie Jackson. Look for his editorial in March '07 issue of the Chicago Sun Times telling how DC residents need cops, not guns.

McCarthy (D-NY). See above referenced HR1022. Better yet, check Youtube for "thing that goes up".
Feinstein (wants forever version of '94 ban)
Schumer (wants forever version of '94 ban)
Biden (forever version of '94 ban was part of his presidential platform)

See a pattern? It's not Sarah herself, it's the whole Fascist routine being applied by anti-BOR types.


"3. Break off your love affair with the NRA. They're a lobbying group for Gun Manufacturers, fer Christ's sake! Any respect they have for you, or for the Bill of Rights, extends only as far as their bottom line. They are using you."

Common misconception you have there. 4 million NRA members vs 80 million firearms owners. So.......where's the so-called love for the NRA? It's not here in the Gungeon and the numbers show it.


;)

[SteveM]

67. I suggest you take a look at the language of the gun-controllers...

...to include your own expressions.

[benEzra]

37. Ah, not so much. Look at the ALL STATES homicide data...

The data show no pattern at all, but you can create the illusion of a pattern by cherry-picking your states.

[jody]

39. Darn you benEzra, there you go again with facts and logic. Heracles would be proud.

[gorfle]

64. BWHAHAAHAHhahahahaha

BenEzra, You are a veritable gem. Nothing like bludgening the opponent with overwhelming science. Good show.

You should make a similar chart showing Violent Crime Rate vs. Poverty, or vs. Income.

[slackmaster]

69. Patterns in second and third charts would do any shotgun proud

:rofl:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. Neat trick, let's say states so we won't have to include the District in any of our stats.

Because we all know that the district of columbia would completely screw these numbers up.

David