Airport staff stop passenger boarding for wearing Transformers T-shirt

[beevul]

I see the "zero tolerance" mindset is neither limited to schools and the children in them, nor limited to America.

Airport staff stop passenger boarding for wearing Transformers T-shirt
By Urmee Khan
Last Updated: 2:59PM BST 02/06/2008

Airport guards have stopped a man boarding a plane for wearing a Transformers T-shirt showing a cartoon gun.
Brad Jayakody, 30, was told he had to change his T-shirt if he wanted to catch his flight from Heathrow's Terminal 5.

"My mate set off the alarms and was searched. But then the guy told me to stop and said 'you cannot get on the plane because there is a gun on your T-shirt'" he said.

Mr Jayakody, from Bayswater, West London was then threatened with arrest after he asked to see the security chief.

He said: "It's a cartoon robot with a gun as an arm. What was I going to do, use the shirt to pretend I have a gun?

"I was flabbergasted. I thought the supervisor would come over and see sense, but he didn't. After I changed he said if I changed back I would be arrested."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2065320/Airport-staff-stop-passenger-boarding-for-wearing-Transformers-T-shirt.html

Bizarre. Utterly bizarre.

[ORDagnabbit]

1. Mcgiver could totally make a gun out of a t-shirt.

[damntexdem]

9. A transformer could make an arm into a saw blade ...

and slice open a plane.

Better alert Hoaxland Security!

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Not bizarre, this makes perfect sense in a police state

you do this to keep people out of kilter,

Read The End of America for a short lesson, or the many books on methods used by the Nazis and other police states

[lob1]

3. Another thing we have to be afraid of...tee shirt terrorists.

[benEzra]

4. The new face of "terrah," UK style....

OMG, save us!!!!!

BTW, the shirt in question:

[SteveM]

34. With my eyesight, it looks like he picked the shirt up from the street (nt)

[iverglas]

5. hmm

Low-wage workers on the front line of governments' efforts to prevent violent incidents on airplanes ... given instructions, feeling no confidence about exercising their own judgment, probably expressly instructed not to do so.

A supervisor who might be an officious jerk or who might have operational considerations in mind in choosing not to overrule a low-wage front-line worker whose job is not to exercise judgment.

Throw in a guy wearing a Tshirt that falls within the guidelines that are apparently designed to keep passenger anxiety to a minimum (the rules prohibit depictions of bombs and guns, and rude words) ... and who just happens to look like this ...



http://seibertron.com/transformers/news/optimus-prime-found-offensive-at-heathrow-us-says-/13204/

and, well, one might wonder which factor carried the most weight.

Of course, we all remember the GI Joe boondoggle on the other side of the pond:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2173150.stm

[uppityperson]

6. k&r, was in UK, not USA but still, wtf? eom.

[Irreverend IX]

7. A policy perfectly in line...

With the fetishistic fearmongering that characterizes the anti-gun movement.

Before and during the early 20th century, Western-style brimmed hats were seen as evil in many Muslim countries. I heard a story about a European doctor visiting the home of a wealthy family in the Ottoman Empire, and after he left one of the maids ritually washed the table where he set his hat down.

In the 1950s, an acquaintance of mine had a Catholic houseguest who crossed herself when she saw the family cat, which had a black body and white feet (not even a fully black cat).

More recently, religious groups have declared many elements of youth culture, from video games to role-playing games to Pokemon cards, to be the work of Satan. I recall reading about a church function where Pokemon cards were ritually burned.

The anti-gun movement often goes beyond the realm of rationally discussing public policy and exhibits quasi-religious behavior, treating anything related to firearms as unclean and taboo. Policies like this and the zero-tolerance school rules that see students suspended for drawing pictures of guns turn the firearm into an evil fetish object to be abhorred on a level that transcends all logic.

[beevul]

8. An interesting, and accurate take.

I am all too aware of this type of behavior - its all about control.

Where I live, sadly, I am surrounded by it though its miles away from me - some of the folks that live here call us the hermits on the hill and oddly enough we like it that way, because they leave us alone lol - but I see it or hear about it almost daily.

Whether its music, simple card games, video games, harry potter books, or something as simple as a gal wearing a pair of pants with her hair worn flowing free behind her back rather than the religion mandated dress that falls to the feet and hair in a bun - the operative element is always the same - control.

"Thats the devils music"

I could tell you stories about my run-ins over music with the religious crowd, over the years. They - the really evangelistic crowd - used to come by here regularly for the first year or so that we lived here - believing that we were "new blood" for them to preach to. The last time, I made sure to have the heaviest music playing obscenely loud for them, and they haven't been back since - I guess Slayer just isn't thier taste, though I doubt Metallica would have had any different result.

One whacko in town sat outside the local theater all by her lonesome protesting the last harry potter movie.


In my experience, no matter what the issue is, it is about controlling the behavior of others with these people, with justifications contrived of spit and bailing wire at best.

Anything that might distract you from religion - or a pseudo-religion (gun control, drug control,video game control), is evil incarnate, and its just more important to keep you away from it and from thinking about it, than it is for you to think freely and form your own opinions.

[east texas lib]

16. A littlle Black Sabbath works wonders too!

See how fast they run away!

[beevul]

20. Indeed.

I only wish there were music that would cause the anti-gun zealots to run away as fast and as far, and stay away.

[iverglas]

21. oh, well, hey

You could try a little Ted Nugent. That would make me lose my lunch pretty fast.

Now, whatever YOU do, don't you be watching movies or teevee shows or listening to music by any of these people. Ted will hate you if you do, and you probably don't want to be in his sights.


Krista Allen - Actress

Suzy Amis - Actress

Louis Anderson - Comedian

Richard Dean Anderson - Actor

Maya Angelou - Poet

David Arquette - Actor

Ed Asner - Actor

Alec Baldwin - Actor

Bob Barker - TV Personality

Carol Bayer Sager - Composer

Drew Barrymore - Actress

Kevin Bacon - Actor

Lauren Bacall - Actress*

Sarah Ban Breathnach - Writer

William Baldwin - Actor

Candice Bergen - Actress

Richard Belzer - Actor

Tony Bennett - Singer

Boys II Men - Pop Group

Jon Bon Jovi - Singer

Peter Bogdonovich - Director

Peter Bonerz - Actor

Albert Brooks - Actor

Beau Bridges - Actor

Benjamin Bratt - Actor

Bonnie Bruckheimer - Movie Producer

Christie Brinkley - Model

Dr. Joyce Brothers - Psychologist/Author

James Brolin - Actor

James Brooks - TV Producer

Mel Brooks - Actor/Director

Betty Buckley - Actress

Ellen Burstyn - Actress

Steve Buscemi - Actor

David Canary - Actor

Kate Capshaw - Actress

Kim Cattrall- Actress

Josh Charles - Actor

Robert Chartloff - Producer

Stockard Channing - Actress

Jill Clayburgh - Actress

Terri Clark - Singer

George Clooney - Actor

Jackie Cooper - Actor/Director*

Jennifer Connelly - Actress

Judy Collins - Singer

Kevin Costner - Actor

Sean Connery - Actor

Sheryl Crow - Singer

Walter Cronkite - Frmr News Anchor

Billy Crystal- Actor

Julie Cypher - Director

Arlene Dahl - Actress

Clive Davis - Writer

Linda Dano - Actress

Matt Damon - Actor

Pam Dawber - Actress

Patrika Darbo - Actress

Stuart Damon - Actor

Ellen Degeneres - Actress

Gavin de Becker - Writer

Rebecca DeMornay - Actress

Danny DeVito - Actor

Michael Douglas - Actor

Phil Donahue - Talk Show Host

Richard Donner - Director

Fran Drescher - Actress

Richard Dreyfus - Actor

David Duchovny - Actor

Sandy Duncan - Actress

Christine Ebersole - Actress

Kenneth “Babyface” Edmonds - Singer

Missy Elliott - Singer

Nora Ephron - Director

Gloria Estefan - Singer

Melissa Etheridge - Singer

Mia Farrow - Actress

Mike Farrell - Actor

Carrie Fisher - Actress

Sally Field - Actress

Doug Flutie - NFL player

Fannie Flagg - Actress

Jane Fonda - Actress

Jodie Foster - Actress

Rick Fox - NBA Player

Andy Garcia - Actor

Art Garfunkel - Singer

Estelle Getty - Actress

Geraldo - TV personality

Richard Gere - Actor

Kathie Lee Gifford - TV personality

Paul Glaser - TV director

Brad Gooch - Writer

Elliott Gould - Actor

Louis Gossett, Jr. - Actor

Michael Gross - Actor

Nancy Lee Grahn - Actress

Bryant Gumbel - TV Personality

Deidra Hall - Actress

Ethan Hawke - Actor

Mariette Hartley - Actress

Mark Harmon - Actor

Anne Heche - Actress

Howard Hessman - Actor

Marilu Henner - Actress

Dustin Hoffman - Actor

Hal Holbrook - Actor*

Whitney Houston - Singer

Helen Hunt - Actress

Grace-Lynne Ingle - Actress

John Ingle - Actor

Francesca James - TV Producer

Norman Jewison - Director

Lainie Kazan - Actress

Richard Karn - Actor

Jeffrey Katzenberg - Producer

Barry Kemp - TV Producer

David E. Kelley - TV Producer

Diane Keaton - Actress

Margaret Kemp - Interior Designer

Chaka Khan - Singer

Coreta Scott King - Activist

Kevin Kline - Actor

Michael E. Knight - Actor

Jonathan Kozol - Writer

William Kovacs - Director

Lenny Kravits - Singer

Lisa Kudrow - Actress

Wally Kurth - Actor

Christine Lahti - Actress

k.d. lang - Singer

Ricki Lake - TV personality

Denis Leary - Actor

John Leguizamo - Actor

Norman Lear - TV Producer

Spike Lee - Director

Hal Linden - Actor

Lisa Linde - Actress

Tara Lipinski - Former Olympian

Keyshawn Johnson - NFL player

Rob Lowe - Actor

Amanda Marshall - Singer

Barry Manilow - Singer

Camryn Manheim - Actress

Howie Mandel - Actor

Kyle MacLachlan - Actor

Madonna - Singer

Marla Maples - Actress

Marsha Mason - Actress*

Mase - Singer

Penny Marshall - Director

Prema Mathai-Davis - YWCA Official

John McDaniel - Musician

John McEnroe - Athlete

Brian McKnight - Musician

Ed McMahon - TV personality

Natalie Merchant - Singer

Bette Midler - Singer

Shane Minor - Musician

Mary Tyler Moore - Actress

Michael Moore - Film Maker

Norval Morris - Law Professor

Mike Myers - Actor

N Sync - Music group

Kathy Najimy - Actress

Paul Newman - Actor

Jack Nicholson - Actor

Leonard Nimoy - Actor

Mike Nichols - Director

Stephen Nichols - Actor

Rosie O`Donnel l- Actress/Talk Show Host

Jennifer O Neill - Actress

Julia Ormond - Actress

Jane Pauley - TV Personality

Sarah Jessica Parker - Actress

Mandy Patinkin - Actor

Richard North Patterson - Writer

Rhea Perlman- Actress

Michelle Pfieffer - Actress

Sydney Pollack - Director

Aidan Quinn - Actor

Colin Quinn - Actor

Dennis Quaid - Actor

Elizabeth Bracco Quinn - Actress

Bonnie Raitt - Singer

Debbie Reynolds - Actress

Mary Lou Retton - Former Olympian

Paul Reiser - Actor

Peter Reckell - Actor

Rob Reiner - Actor/Director

Robert Redford - Actor/Director

Anne Rice - Writer

Cathy Rigby - Actress

Natasha Richardson - Actress

Julia Roberts - Actress

Marc Rosen - TV Producer

Tim Robbins - Actor

Tim Roth - Actor

Renee Russo - Actress

Robin Ruzan - Wife of Mike Myers

Meg Ryan - Actress

Susan Sarandon - Actress

Jerry Seinfeld - Actor

Kyra Sedgwick - Actress

Martin Sheen - Actor

Russell Simmons - Record Producer

Neil Simon - Playwright*

Louise Sorel - Actress

Mira Sorvino - Actress

Rena Sofer - Actress

Britany Spears - Singer

Bruce Springsteen - Singer

Kevin Spirtas - Actor

Barbra Streisand - Singer

David Steinberg - Director

Sylvester Stallone - Actor

Harry Dean Stanton - Actor

Meryl Streep - Actress

Patrick Stewart - Actor

Sharon Stone - Actress

Sting - Singer

Trudie Styler - Actress

Jonathan Taylor Thomas - Actor

The Temptations - Pop Group

Vinny Testaverde - NFL player

Marlo Thomas - Actress*

Uma Thurman - Actress

Steve Tisch - Producer

Mike Torrez - Former Baseball player

Shania Twain - Singer

Dick Van Dyke - Actor

Eli Wallach - Actor*

Ruth Warrick - Actress

Harvey Weinstein - Producer

Jann Wenner - Publisher

Sigourney Weaver - Actress

Victor Webster - Actor

James Whitmore - Actor*

Andy Williams - Singer*

Kelli Williams - Actress

Henry Winkler - Actor

Oprah Winfrey - Entertainer

Richard Widmark - Actor

Rita Wilson - Actress

Vanessa Williams - Singer

Herman Wouk - Author

Joanne Woodward - Actress*

Peter Yarrow - Singer

Catherine Zeta-Jones - Actress

Ahmet Zappa -Actor

Diva Zappa -Actress

Dweezil Zappa - Musician

Gail Zappa -

Moon Zappa -Actress


* Denotes membership on Brady Campaign`s National Committee

[beevul]

26. Ohh my!!! How...uninteresting.

"You could try a little Ted Nugent. That would make me lose my lunch pretty fast."


Thats a thought, though I was thinking a genre rather than an individual. Would lyrics be enough?

And, though I like a couple of songs of his, I actually don't have any of them in my collection.

As for that list, none of them get any money from me these days, including nugent...though not because they are on that list or not, but just because thats how life works out. Though I did buy the X-Files movie and the star trek movies years ago.

[iverglas]

11. a post perfectly in line

with the buffoonery that is the Guns forum.

Everything is all about the menz and their gunz.

Even something that is obviously about a large brown-skinned person in technical violation of a rule designed to minimize the anxiety of passengers on airline flights by not putting images that appear to advocate violence in front of their faces ...

That someone could see this situation as in any way connected with "the anti-gun movement" would be seen by many in the, er, normal population as evidence of delusions. Perhaps just of grandeur, but they do so often come with delusions of persecution, don't they?

If he'd been directed to remove this Tshirt



(rude words break the rules)

or this Tshirt



(mention of bombs breaks the rules)

... well, I guess that would be some paranoid fearer and hater of all things gunz too. Somehow or other.

[Irreverend IX]

12. "Everything is all about the menz and their gunz."

Can you explain what in my post suggested that "Everything is all about the menz and their gunz."?

[iverglas]

13. Well, I think the gunz is obvious

and we all know that despite huge efforts to remedy the situation undertaken by the forces of evil in the USofA, the huge and overwhelming majority of the world's women really don't give a crap about guns, unless they happen to be among the many women who would really prefer not to be assaulted and abused and terrorized by men with them.

You did notice it wasn't a woman wearing the terminally dumb Tshirt in question here, I guess.

Mind you, it was a woman trying to tote the disgusting war toy onto the plane in the case in the US, but hey, there are collaborators in every oppressed group, be they conscious or unconscious.

[Irreverend IX]

17. My post made no suggestion...

That "everything" is somehow related to gun issues, or to mens' issues. I pointed out that opposition to firearms ownership often goes beyond the realm of public policy and begins to resemble religious taboo. The security personnel at the Los Angeles airport who treated the little toy soldier as if it could shoot at them remind me of primitive tribe members who recoil from some random object because it has "bad juju" associated with it.

Beevul mentioned drugs, and drugs are another thing that are demonized far beyond the point of rationality. A lot of "drug education" suggests to kids that they'll get addicted, go crazy and/or die the first time they ever use any controlled substance. Myths like the one about drug traffickers who kill a baby and stuff it with heroin suggest that drug dealers are uniquely inhuman and evil. And it makes perfect sense for the drug controllers and gun controllers to engender these feelings; it's easy to argue with public policy and hard to argue with religious taboo. Look at the irrational dietary restrictions that Jews and Muslims still adhere to centuries after sanitary agricultural procedures have rendered the original reasons for those restrictions moot.

And tell me more about how a woman buying a plastic soldier toy is "collaborating with the oppressors." Where can I sign up to join your glorious cultural revolution? Will there be mass burnings of GI Joe toys? Will I get a reward for every collaborator I turn in?

[iverglas]

19. no, you didn't point it out

I pointed out that opposition to firearms ownership often goes beyond the realm of public policy and begins to resemble religious taboo.

You made it up. You invented a bizarre and tenuous, at best, connection between a rule governing the attire of air travellers and an alleged and completely false emotional response to firearms on the part of people who disagree with you on a matter of public policy that has nothing to do with the attire of air travellers and the reasons behind the rules governing that attire.


The security personnel at the Los Angeles airport who treated the little toy soldier as if it could shoot at them remind me of primitive tribe members who recoil from some random object because it has "bad juju" associated with it.

Well, I don't mind saying it again.

The security personnel at airports are low-wage workers who are not directed to use personal judgment in applying the rules they are engaged to apply and who quite undoubtedly live in some apprehension about the consequences of missteps in applying those rules, and would therefore be expected, by a reasonable person considering the matter in good faith, to follow a hard and literal line in performing their duties.

In other words: aren't you just the little élitist.


Okay ... there followed in your post a paragraph of rambling burble ... nothing needed there ...


And tell me more about how a woman buying a plastic soldier toy is "collaborating with the oppressors."

Gee. Not a child of the 60s you, eh? Yes, giving one's grandson a representation of the vicious imperialist militarism practised by the USofA throughout these last decades to mould him into a good little soldier for the oppressors, er, I mean, to play with: that's a fine and progressive, and of course feminist, thing to do. I knew it. I just forgot.

[beevul]

23. Don't take it personally.

Don't take it personally, I understand completely what you are and were getting at. And I agree regardless of how blind others are to whats been in front of thier own noses for years, and how they vehemently deny what you are saying.

Look at it this way:

The first reply to you from that other poster...is sort of an example of what you are saying, that being theres just no reasoning with "the believers", any more than you can reason with people that truly believe that taking a photo of them will take their soul.

Sometimes a toy is just a toy, and a shirt is just a shirt, but you'll never see one of "the believers" buying into that.

Some people are simply above having their beliefs challenged, or more commonly, are deathly afraid of it.

Others wont tolerate such things, because it interferes with, and contradicts their agenda. Some agendas are too invested in for there to be any room for truth.

And some "believers" spend their entire existance looking for things to support their belief. And if they can't find any, or can't find much, well, thats where the spit and bailing wire come in. The people responsible for drug war and its continuation, are one such example.

[iverglas]

25. and some people

are just rude.

You did notice where Mayor David Miller, the subject of torrents of your rudeness today, advocates decriminalizing cannabis, right?

And of course you're aware that cannabis would have been decriminalized in Canada some years ago if it weren't for the fact that the US would ruin our economy if we dared ...

[beevul]

27. I never said...

I never said that any one country had the market cornered on "believers" or that "believers" all had the same beliefs.

Of course, mr miller is a believer, where guns are concerned. Got a level head where cannabis regulation is concerned, but a believer nonetheless.

And our government in the US is full of them, where the war on drugs is concerned. And they huff and puff in the press and other media, trying to make more "believers", because thats what "believers" do. Ours is so bold and shameless that they even try to create believers in other countries, and try interfering with those other countries.


And...did you have a point?

[iverglas]

29. did I have a point?

Yeah. How did you miss it?

Some people are just rude.

[maxidivine]

36. The beef sandwich?

"You did notice it wasn't a woman wearing the terminally dumb Tshirt in question here, I guess.

Mind you, it was a woman trying to tote the disgusting war toy onto the plane in the case in the US, but hey, there are collaborators in every oppressed group, be they conscious or unconscious."

Were you talking about the beef sandwich woman? Not connecting beef sandwiches and "disgusting war toy", unlesss maybe you don't believe humans should eat cows?

[iverglas]

39. an interesting theory

but no.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2173150.stm

A doll caused a security alert at an American airport because its two-inch plastic gun was considered a dangerous weapon.

Judy Powell, 55, from Walton on the Hill, Surrey, bought the GI Joe toy in Las Vegas and packed it in her hand luggage.

But security staff at Los Angeles International Airport refused to let Mrs Powell on board the plane with the replica rifle.

Mrs Powell had to put the gift - minus the rifle - in her suitcase so it could go in the aircraft's hold.

... "If GI Joe was carrying a replica then it had to be taken from him."

A grandmother, or anybody, who buys one of those things for a child needs psychotherapy.

[iverglas]

14. still waiting

How DO you explain the ban on Tshirts that say Fuckin' Eh and Bomb Iran, when there are no guns in sight???

[beevul]

15. How do you explain them? N/T

[iverglas]

18. perhaps you have noticed

my other posts in this thread.

I do trust you're not asking me to justify the rules or the implementation thereof, since I have not stated any opinion thereon.

Assuming that you will ask, I will tell.

I would personally prefer not to be sitting next to someone on a plane whose clothing bears depictions of firearms or bombs. Granted, a clever evildoer would be unlikely to festoon him/herself in such images before boarding a plane, so the rules seem rather pointless. But I see nothing objectionable about rules designed to minimize anxiety on the part of air travellers. And requiring that someone change shirts before boarding an airplane is not the kind of thing I'm going to get very exercised about. I can see that the individual in this case would have been non-plussed by the attention given to his silly Tshirt; I can also see that other passengers (not everyone knows what those things are, I'm sure you realize) would have been made uncomfortable by it. And yes, other people's discomfort actually is a perfectly valid consideration when it comes to rules governing passenger conduct during air travel.

As for the rude words, I can't see any reason why anyone needs to flaunt his/her disregard for many people's response to such things in the face of the captive audience on an airplane. I flaunt mine here regularly; I would not wear the Fuckin' Eh Tshirt on an airplane, no matter how patriotic the sentiment that motivated me, or to my sister's house for family xmas dinner. Although I think my brother would, in the latter case. I doubt that he would when travelling by air, since he already looks quite disreputable enough and there is really very little reason to go annoying the people overseeing one's travel plans. Again: other people's discomfort actually is a perfectly valid consideration when it comes to rules governing passenger conduct during air travel.

I trust that helped.

[beevul]

24. I'll keep this simple.

"And yes, other people's discomfort actually is a perfectly valid consideration when it comes to rules governing passenger conduct during air travel."


"Again: other people's discomfort actually is a perfectly valid consideration when it comes to rules governing passenger conduct during air travel."

At what point should the line between ridiculous and valid be drawn, in your opinion?

At what point, does ones "discomfort" become unrealistic and ridiculous?

[iverglas]

28. got any theories you'd like to float?

At what point should the line between ridiculous and valid be drawn, in your opinion?

On one side of the line, we might have "allowing one's children to run screaming around the cabin throughout the flight".

On the other side of the line, we might have "wearing yellow socks with purple trousers and a pink fedora".

The point at which the line itself should be drawn, I would think, is where an airline thinks it should be drawn, where anyone is capable of complying with the rule and no one is being prevented from travelling by air, and no distinction based on an unacceptable ground of discrimination and for which there is no other justification is being made. (On that latter point, disagreement may arise. I may be uncomfortable flying with an individual cloaked in full-body chador, harkening back to how that was the costume used by those robbers with a rifle in the US recently. I may be uncomfortable travelling with a Sikh with his kirpan secreted about his body, harkening back to the circumstances in which Air India flight 182 was downed. Such situations are obviously coming closer to whatever line is drawn, and as in most such situations would likely have to be dealt with case by case, with passengers then having to be confident that the airline has been attentive to their security and not discriminated improperly against anyone. That's how these things work.)

I've never thought it was my job to decide how much discomfort it was all right to subject someone else to. That's the attitude taken by neighbours I have had who decided my discomfort at listening to their barking dogs 24/7 wasn't worthy of their notice. I don't want to be like those people.


At what point, does ones "discomfort" become unrealistic and ridiculous?

At what point does it become your business to decide, or even to worry about, the "validity" of someone's discomfort, when the owner of the airline is perfectly capable of doing it without your assistance?

I might say: at the point where no one is being prevented from travelling by air or improperly discriminated agianst. No one discriminated against Mr. Transformer Tshirt or prevented him from travelling by air. No one even inconvenienced him enough to bother mentioning. Ditto Grandma GI Joe.

Did you have something in particular in mind? Spit it out then.

[beevul]

31. Please try to stay "in context".

Please try to stay "in context". I really shouldn't have to say this, but do try to remain on the topic of attire. The issue has nothing to do with "running screaming children".

When I asked "At what point should the line between ridiculous and valid be drawn, in your opinion?", the context of it being about attire was implied.

When I asked "At what point, does ones "discomfort" become unrealistic and ridiculous?", the context of attire was again, implied.

That IS the subject of this thread. Attire which causes one to have to change into other attire, lest one not be allowed to fly.


"At what point does it become your business to decide, or even to worry about, the "validity" of someone's discomfort, when the owner of the airline is perfectly capable of doing it without your assistance?"

Maybe you should ask that question of the security people, eh?

I wonder what you might be saying, if the person in question had been asked to change out of a shirt that said "Brady Campaign to prevent GUN violence" like this:



Should a shirt with that logo be forbidden attire on an airplane because it might make someone uncomfortable?

[iverglas]

32. well my, my, those goalposts do shift

Now, where did this "uncomfortable" thing come from?

Here's what *I* said in my first post here, #5:

Throw in a guy wearing a Tshirt that falls within the guidelines that are apparently designed to keep passenger anxiety to a minimum (the rules prohibit depictions of bombs and guns, and rude words)

I then said, in post #18:

I can see that the individual in this case would have been non-plussed by the attention given to his silly Tshirt; I can also see that other passengers (not everyone knows what those things are, I'm sure you realize) would have been made uncomfortable by it. And yes, other people's discomfort actually is a perfectly valid consideration when it comes to rules governing passenger conduct during air travel.

So my, my. How about YOU try to stay "in context", hmm?

We aren't talking about screaming children, and we aren't talking about matters of taste -- and we aren't talking about political preferences. We're talking about concerns for safety and confidence in the level of safety provided. As my actual examples -- full-body chador, bladed weapon -- made quite plain.

So your silly firearms control Tshirt example is ruled out of order.

Unless you can offer up some scenario in which an individual advocating that gun violence be prevented would really and truly -- not just "validly" -- cause an airline passenger discomfort IN CONTEXT here.


At what point does it become your business to decide, or even to worry about, the "validity" of someone's discomfort, when the owner of the airline is perfectly capable of doing it without your assistance?
Maybe you should ask that question of the security people, eh?

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I kept thinking I should say, when referring to airline rules, something like "anything in excess of what is already imposed by government authorities". Yes indeed, in this instance, the rule seems to have been imposed by government authorities. I don't actually know, but it seems that way.

Not, you see, by "the security people", if by "the security people" you are referring to the low-wage workers whose employment is dependent on their execution of the instructions they are given.

I'm still not sure where it would become your business.

And I still have absolutely no clue what it is about this incident that would cause so many people so much distress.

Well, sure I do. It is an instance of inadequate respect being shown for their fetish object, The Gun.

[beevul]

33. Nice try.

The goalposts are where they were. You just didn't recognise where they were.

"Unless you can offer up some scenario in which an individual advocating that gun violence be prevented would really and truly -- not just "validly" -- cause an airline passenger discomfort IN CONTEXT here."

One teeshirt has a picture containing the word "gun".

One teeshirt has a picture of a robot which does not exist, holding a gun which also does not exist.

I see no difference between denying one versus denying the other.

To deny the wearing of either would be wrong, in my view, because I do not believe there is such a thing as a justifiable reason to do so.

If someone has been living under a rock so long that they can not understand the context of the word gun in the one tee-shirt, or living under a rock so long that they do not understand what a transformer is on the other, I do not believe special treatment should be afforded to them in the form of asking everyone else to alter whats normal for them to do - specifically wearing either of the shirts in question which was not done deliberately for purposes of provocation - because of it.


And I'd be in a large majority of people thinking the same thing.

On edit:

If you'd like, we could have a poll in GD asking if either shirt should be grounds for denial to fly.

[krispos42]

40. "a rule designed to minimize the anxiety "

Why are people anxious in the first place?

[iverglas]

41. ah, the Socratic method

We could do that. Or we could engage in peer-to-peer discourse.

If you have a point, you could actually make it.

[krispos42]

43. Oh, I was having vague thoughts about Bush-induced fear propaganda

in an attempt to shore up himself and his party, but I wanted to see where you would take it.

[iverglas]

44. can't I just read you like a book?

Myself, I was having thoughts about all the anxieties that all kinds of people can have for all kinds of reasons.

One, as I have mentioned elsewhere, stems from the fact that not everyone in the world (this was an international airport) knows what a Transformer is or has seen a picture of a Transformer, and not everyone in the world who might be travelling from an international airport sees a picture of a great big gun and thinks "happy playtime!"

Yes, I was also thinking of people who are anxious about flying because of historical events illustrating the potential dangers of flying. Planes were being highjacked way back when GWBush was too drunk and stoned to have noticed. Planes have been bombed out of the sky by people who have not the remotest connection to any campaign of terror against the USofA. Perhaps you've heard of Air India flight 182. Perhaps not. It was in 1986, and it was a flight out of Canada, and 329 people were killed when the bomb on board exploded.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/airindia/bombing.html

I was not long out of high school, I think, back around when GWBush was enjoying his wild oats, when this joke was making the rounds:

There's a 1 in a million chance that you'll be on a plane with a bomb. But the chance of being on a plane with *two* bombs are astronomical. So always take a bomb with you when you fly.

Of course, many people are just inchoately anxious about being confined in a small cylinder several thousand feet above the ground, and that free-floating anxiety makes people susceptible to stressors, which a graphic depiction of a big old gun could be.

And I just don't see the point of exacerbating the anxiety of people travelling by air, from their perspective or from the airline's or airport's or government's.

And I just absolutely fail to see how requiring that someone change his shirt before boarding a plane is something that any reasonable person of goodwill would get really really exercised about.



typo fixed

[krispos42]

47. Those stand without saying, of course

People have all kinds of anxieties. The question as to how much we have to bend over for them is a relevent one, though.

not everyone in the world (this was an international airport) knows what a Transformer is or has seen a picture of a Transformer

Aside from the fact that it's obviously a cartoon drawing, Transformers is an international phenonomom going back to about 1984 or so and included the UK in it's breadth. Comic books, movies, action figures, playsets, clothing, bedroom decor, and television cartoons were all part of it, culminating in last summer's movie (over $700 million worldwide, over half outside of the US) and marketing blitz.

So it's technically accurate but not particulary useful to say that not everybody in the world knows what a Transformer is. I believe that you would have to work pretty hard to find somebody at the airport that either didn't know it was specifically a "Transformer" or that it was some sort of TV/movie/comic book character.

Yes, I was also thinking of people who are anxious about flying because of historical events illustrating the potential dangers of flying. Planes were being highjacked way back when GWBush was too drunk and stoned to have noticed. Planes have been bombed out of the sky by people who have not the remotest connection to any campaign of terror against the USofA. Perhaps you've heard of Air India flight 182. Perhaps not. It was in 1986, and it was a flight out of Canada, and 329 people were killed when the bomb on board exploded.

All of which is true. But it does not explain fear of a Transformer t-shirt.

There's a 1 in a million chance that you'll be on a plane with a bomb. But the chance of being on a plane with *two* bombs are astronomical. So always take a bomb with you when you fly.

:rofl:

And I just absolutely fail to see how requiring that someone change his shirt before boarding a plane is something that any reasonable person of goodwill would get really really exercised about.

Assuming he has a shirt to change in to. Of course he could just turn in inside-out, which in and of itself it not an unreasonable request given the right circumstances. I just don't think the right circumstances were present, at which point it's useless harassment.

[iverglas]

48. sometimes the ethnocentricity is amazing

Aside from the fact that it's obviously a cartoon drawing, Transformers is an international phenonomom going back to about 1984 or so and included the UK in it's breadth.

It's an INTERNATIONAL airport. Where people from the WORLD, not the western industrialized nations, travel to, from and through.

Every known anybody from somewhere other than a western industrialized nation? Know his/her parents? Grandparents? I do. I got to know the elderly mildly schizophrenic Chinese mother of a client of mine. When we had dinner at their house, she was kept busy chopping carrots. When she came to the hearing on her immigration application, she was kept busy knitting. I can assure you: she had no clue what the cultural equivalent of a Transformer at that time was, and her counterpart today has no clue what a Transformer is. I imagine she knows what a gun is, though. And I imagine that the entire process of travelling by air halfway around the world, through several airports, caused her a fair bit of anxiety.

I got to know the senior cit father of some Iraqi clients of mine, a lower middle-class Shi'ite whose family had suffered considerable trouble at home. We're talking the late 1970s here, btw. I'm sure he knew what a gun was, and I'm equally sure he didn't know what the cultural equivalent of a Transformer at that time was, and that his counterpart today would be the same.

I've got to know Somali children whose uncles and fathers were killed by militias. Women who have been raped by squads of soldiers. Have you? They all travelled by air, through international airports, to reach Canada. And I'm quite sure that their present-day counterparts would have no clue what a Transformer is, but would know very well what a large man with a big gun is.

So as far as

Comic books, movies, action figures, playsets, clothing, bedroom decor, and television cartoons were all part of it, culminating in last summer's movie (over $700 million worldwide, over half outside of the US) and marketing blitz.

... well, there really are some people on earth whose brains Hollywood hasn't soddened yet. And some people in some parts of the world really do still have their own cultures, and their own cultural referrents.


But it does not explain fear of a Transformer t-shirt.

If only someone had said that anyone was or was likely to be afraid of a Transformer Tshirt, you'd have said something meaningful that made a good faith contribution to sincere discussion.


Assuming he has a shirt to change in to. Of course he could just turn in inside-out, which in and of itself it not an unreasonable request given the right circumstances.

That's what I thought, having had the idea planted by that tale of the little cretin with his bounty hunter Tshirt at school. I don't think Mr. IT goof could have looked any worse in an inside-out Tshirt than he already looked.


I just don't think the right circumstances were present, at which point it's useless harassment.

Yes, airlines and airport authorities just live for the chance to harass their customers and users ...

[krispos42]

50. Full of people that can afford to travel

This is not about some llama herder from the isolated mountains of Peru getting snatched up and dumped in an airport by Scotty and his trusty transporter.


It cost MONEY to fly to London. And if you can afford a couple of grand for the tickets, you have money for things like television, radio, newspapers, magazines, maybe even the internet.

In addition, a person that makes the trip is prepared mentally for a new culture. One in which, for example, people sell pork in restraunts. Or women don't go covered from head to toe and might even (gasp) wear form-fitting clothing that reveales their womanly stuff. Or people bathe daily. Or whatever the cultural difference is.

I'll make this point again: I believe that you would have to work pretty hard to find somebody at the airport that either didn't know it was specifically a "Transformer" or that it was some sort of TV/movie/comic book character.

If only someone had said that anyone was or was likely to be afraid of a Transformer Tshirt, you'd have said something meaningful that made a good faith contribution to sincere discussion.

Oh, look, a nit.

Yes, airlines and airport authorities just live for the chance to harass their customers and users ...

Well, let's see what you said about airport authorities. The security personnel at airports are low-wage workers who are not directed to use personal judgment in applying the rules they are engaged to apply and who quite undoubtedly live in some apprehension about the consequences of missteps in applying those rules, and would therefore be expected, by a reasonable person considering the matter in good faith, to follow a hard and literal line in performing their duties.

The people that get and keep the job as you describe above, who deal with all kinds and flavors of humanity in intimate contact and under often-trying circumstances, are they the kind to, on a regular basis, assert their authority in the case of some conflict with a passenger?



And how does it help anybody? I'll bet damn near everybody that watched the exchange at the airport facepalmed themselves at the idiocy of the whole situation or started getting anxious about what they were wearing. Then it makes the worldwide press, and a billion people laugh at those "low-wage workers who are not directed to use personal judgment in applying the rules they are engaged to apply", which is just one more reason that nobody competent and talented wants to do airport security.

Bill Maher discussed this problem in his book When You Drive Alone, You Drive With Bin Laden if you're interested.

Then it also looks like political correctness run amuck, which makes working on real problems like racism and sexism that much harder. "Oh, those silly liberals! Ha ha ha!"





However, I do think that "Fuckin' Eh" shirt is funny as hell. :-) I'd never wear one, but it's funny.

And I can't believe anybody actually is buying a "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" shirt. A fool and his money are soon parted, I guess.

[iverglas]

51. sometimes the ethnocentricity is amazing

Full of people that can afford to travel

Yeah, like that client of mine from Cameroon who came here in 1981. A hereditary chief of a village so remote it doesn't have a road to it, let alone telephone service, even today and for the foreseeable future, where his niece died a while ago from postpartum haemorrhage because there are no medical services. I'm pretty sure it doesn't have television. Or Toys 'R Us.

I don't think there was TV in the 6x9 underground cell he spent six months in, either. Mind you, he did work for a bit as a taxi driver in Lagos for a while after that, saving the money to fly through Heathrow to Canada. I don't think he encountered much in the way of Hollywood, er, culture during that time either. Who knows; in the same circumstances today, he might have had a DVD player and watched Transformer movies over and over. Just like all the kids in all the refugee camps in the world, some of whom eventually make their way through international airports to safety, are doing.


Then it also looks like political correctness run amuck, which makes working on real problems like racism and sexism that much harder. "Oh, those silly liberals! Ha ha ha!"

Nah. It just makes it obvious who really doesn't give the least bit of a shit about problems like racism and sexism, and only comes out of the woodwork to say things like "Oh, those silly liberals! Ha ha ha!" when they think it will work because the ones who do care are afraid of being accused of political correctness run amok. People who actually care don't worry about that.


Bill Maher discussed this problem in his book When You Drive Alone, You Drive With Bin Laden if you're interested.

I'm afraid I've never been much interested in much that Bill Maher has had to say.


And I can't believe anybody actually is buying a "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" shirt.

Well you see, I think "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" is funny. I mean, I'd have thought it was funny if somebody sitting on my chesterfield had said it. Even in public, in circumstances where it was obvious who the butt of it was. But sigh, somebody would undoubtedly still have taken it out of context ... John Kerry, you end up in Iraq ...

[krispos42]

52. Awww, the pwecious widdle primitive people

They are just sooooooooo fwagile! Big bad western culture would just be too much for their widdle hearts and simple, ignorant minds to deal with, and we must coddle and protect them!




I'm pretty sure your village chief from Cameroon, or your friend from China are a hell of a lot tougher mentally (and probably physically) than you and I. Odds are they spent a lot more time and effort fighting for survival against the forces of nature by the strength of their backs and the sweat of their brow than you and I. Odd are they've personally done a lot more things that us western culture types usually leave to professionals, like slaughtering animals for food, tanning their hides, delivering children, building homes, and growing and cultivating their own crops.

So maybe the ethnocentric accuser can knock of the condenscention towards the precious snowflake attitude?



And I find it amusing that your knitting Chinese friend, had she tried to bring those knitting needles on an airplane (perhaps to reduce travel or waiting anxiety) would have been faced with the same minimal-judgment low-wage security guard confronting her about it in a public venue.

Not making a point or anything, just struck me as amusing.

[RoseMead]

10. But aren't the Transformers the good guys?

Now if it was a Decepticon on his shirt, that's a different story. :P

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

37. That's what the Transformers WANT you to think

Never trust a design on a t-shirt. You can't tell what it's thinking.

:scared:

[friendly_iconoclast]

22. Your small change could be a terrorist threat

Musn't carry U.S. Bicentennial or Massachusetts commemorative quarters back to Heathrow-
they have a Minuteman carrying -gasp- a rifle on them.

Better look over your pocket money just to be safe.

[iverglas]

30. hmm

is that a quarter in his pocket, or is he just in need of some phallic enhancement?


HAHAHAHAHAHA.

[SteveM]

35. Looking at his pocket? Why? (nt)

[iverglas]

42. and here I thought it was obvious

To demonstrate the completely moronic nature of the post to which I replied.

[SteveM]

45. Just sort of popped in your mind? (nt)

[iverglas]

46. well, here's how it went

Hmm. Where would I get a picture of a US quarter that I could juxtapose with a picture of the goof in the Tshirt, so that the relative sizes would be apparent? I'd have to find a very very little picture of a US quarter ...

But in any event, in what circumstances would a passenger on an airline flight be seeing a US quarter in another passenger's possession? Pocket change is usually in pockets.

(Now, the risk would be higher on a British Airways flight, since that airline passes the hat on international flights and asks passengers to dump the change in their pockets in the currency of the country they are leaving, which is then donated to UNICEF.)

If the US quarter in question would be in a pocket, what we need is a picture of a pocket.

Hmm, I wonder whether the picture of the goof in a Tshirt shows him having pockets. Oh look, it does!

And then ... well ... I just couldn't resist. Is that a quarter in your pocket, or ...?

Happy now?



Is that a gun in your pocket, or ... oh ... it is a gun in your pocket.

Women all over the US discover yet another way to be disappointed.

[beevul]

38. A link to the LBN "transformers shirt" thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3336296


The one where no one at all thinks that the fuss made over the shirt was the right thing to do.

[Ready4Change]

49. Better outlaw Crayons

Hell. A CHILD could draw ANYTHING?