Will MS-13 gang members obey laws banning guns and knives in Canada? (City News, Toronto, Ontario)

[jody]

MS-13 Primer: 'The Most Dangerous Gang' In North America

Who Are They?
MS-13 is believed to have originated in El Salvador, as a response to a brutal civil war. But some immigrants to the U.S. brought the gang mentality with them, where it spread like a disease. They are known to be extremely violent and seem to go out of their way to commit the kinds of atrocities that will get them noticed by police and the press. Membership is said to range in age from as young as 11 to as old as 40.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Where Are They?
The FBI estimates some 10,000 members have established themselves in at least 33 states down south, including New York, southern California and most especially the bureau's own backyard, Washington D.C.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

How Can you Spot Them?
Like many gangs, they sport numerous large tattoos on their bodies and even their faces, mostly dedicated to showing their affiliation. Look for lots of "MS' and "13" or both, often very colourfully created. Also seen: crossbones, daggers and dice.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

What Are Their Weapons Of Choice?
Like all gangs, guns and knives are part of their repertoire. But unlike the other groups, the machete has become a particularly nasty symbol of their intentions and they've used them frequently to commit a host of atrocities.

I wonder how Canada will handle MS-13 gang activities?

[leftyclimber]

1. Unless things have changed a lot in the past 5 years

not very well.

Parts of Scarborough were run by a Tamil gang then, Hong Kong immigrants were leaving Chinatown in droves because of the extortion (these first two were in Toronto), and the biker gangs were blowing each other and cops up in Montreal.

For a while, I lived around the corner from a Hell's Angels house. While it kept the crime down, nobody was doing anything about them at all (other than not bothering them). Apparently it was a great place to sell Girl Guide cookies.

[iverglas]

2. I'm failing to take your point

Been gone a while, have you?

Or were you under some impression that utopia on earth actually arrived in Canada back when we elected Pierre Trudeau?

Here; put it on your wish list:

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/Biker-Trials-Bringing-Down-Hells-Paul-Cherry/9781550226386-item.html?pticket=kz3rsm55ve1jzd45ypnyxgqwDzBeUdFse5rWar64w24KKHDldAY%3d
"The Hell's Angels Trials"

What about the way in which the Hell's Angels have been to a considerable extent neutralized in Canada amounts to "not very well" in your eyes?

The huge and complex and enormously expensive police investigations into their activities?

The legislation enacted in order for it to be possible for people to be prosecuted for engaging in crimes specifically for the benefit of a criminal organization? That little "freedom of association" thing in the Charter was quite an obstacle to taking effective action against organized crime, you might understand. The legislation finally enacted appears to be withstanding scrutiny at this point.

The huge and complex and enormously expensive trials of dozens of people?

How would you have done it better, I wonder?

And I wonder just what you know about what anybody was doing about those Hell's Angels in your neighbourhood. Nothing, I expect.

[leftyclimber]

4. I said I'd been gone for 5 years.

That means I left in 2003. Things were not nice then, where I lived, WRT gang activity.

I also said that things may have changed since I'd left, and that I didn't know.

And since I lived near two cops who kept me updated, I knew what was going on with the Hell's Angels in my neighbourhood: nothing. The cops left them alone, and the Angels left the cops alone. It was a total detente.

And to reiterate, I also said that things may have changed since I left. In case it was unclear the first two times I typed it.

If you think I think Americans have handled gangs well, let me clarify that I don't. I think they've been horrible. I understand things like lack of capacity and such. I don't like seeing even more gangs on anybody's plate. And, frankly, I'm a hell of a lot more concerned about Toronto and Vancouver than Montreal, because Montreal has their shit together a lot better in regard to having experienced very big, full-blown gang wars.

I don't think any country has managed to handle gangs beautifully. And while I prefer Canada to the US (I left, BTW, because my ex-husband was stalking me and threatening to kill me, and suddenly my parents' house on the other end of the continent and in another country seemed a lot more appealing), I also don't think Canada is perfect.

Not trying to insult. Sorry if you took it that way.

[iverglas]

5. forgive me

Any thread started by this one is intended solely for bashing purposes. You will not see the thread initiator contributing anything to any discussion. He has been entertaining himself for a few days playing at one of his favourite pastimes: demonstrating his ignorance of all things Canadian while thinking he's accomplishing some huge and important mission. His other sideline is bashing candidates for the Democratic nomination.

The presence of crime in a society is generally characterized in these parts -- you noticed this was the Guns forum -- as evidence of the complete failure and futility of firearms control. That's what this thread is supposed to be -- What's Next, Machete Control?? They Don't Use Guns But They Commit Crimes Anyway!!!

Oh look, criminals commit crimes without using firearms. Fuckin' duh, eh? You'd almost have thought someone had said they didn't.

Salvadoran gangs illustrate a problem with immigration that exists both as a phenomenon and as policy. Immigration is skewed hugely toward single young men: both in terms of who qualifies for independent immigration and in terms of who comes here under their own steam to escape persecution and claim asylum or comes here illegally. Salvadoran young men were at a particular disadvantage, back when I was doing immigration law and I assume now. They have very little formal education, they often come from rural, impoverished backgrounds (or more recently from disorganized, violent urban backgrounds), and they have absolutely no social support/control systems in Canada. No grandmothers to hug them or box their ears, no neighbours to socialize with or scold them. And no women to form households with and structure their personal lives around. A crowd of them lived across the street from me 15 years ago. The second summer they were there it rained almost every day, and everyone on the block thanked our stars, since rain meant no gathering of drunken young men jumping on cars, and preening in their baggy pants and permed hair ... with never once single solitary woman seen on the premises. My Portuguese neighbour, whose house was the target of beer bottles, once pushed her shyness aside and asked them in her still weak English what was wrong with them, that they would come to this country and behave like this. Their chances of successful integration were slim to nil. Exclusion is the biggest factor in gang adherence.

Well, except for the biker gangs. They're just evil rotten people. Although there's obviously some big hole somewhere in their development too.

Quebec not only got its act together on the biker gangs (which of course plagued them more than other places, and which took that federal legislation to deal with), they also have it more together on preventing holes like that from developing. Early childhood education and early intervention with at-risk parents. Mind you, on the exclusion thing, there've been a few problems ...

[leftyclimber]

6. Hey, I'm completely on side with you

and I understand that these issues are way more complex than people want to paint them.

Sorry that I came across harsh. You have no idea how much it's hurt me to have to leave Canada for Cloud Cuckoo Land (at least, I think that's what this country's called now....). I miss you guys, and if I could have expatriated permanently, I definitely would have. Living in Canada was the first and last time in my life I ever felt at home. I've been in exile in my home country since I came back, and it sucks.

Frankly, I didn't even realize this was in the Guns forum, and when I did I regretted that I'd posted, because I realized the intent was not in the least what noticed: I just saw MS-13 in Canada and thought, oh shit, this is the last thing they need. Nothing further.

Pax, eh? :hug:

[Anexio]

9. I wish you could go back too

Why don't you put some nuts in your pocket and move back?

I work my ass off volunteering for various causes and most recently Obama so when I hear whiners like you that hate it here in America I say good riddance.

If you don't like it here do something about it or get out.

[iverglas]

10. there's one thing leftyclimber does seem to be good at

troll-spotting

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2940169



angry_chuck
Pelosi Targets Grassroots Freedom of Speech
Pelosi hates America just like GWB she just hides it better; it's covert contempt.

leftyclimber
Are there any other sources on this? Sounds like it might be a RW smear job.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=196759
Username: angry_chuck




Hahahaha! Wouldncha just know it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3037393

angry_chuck
1. rarely does liberty recede at once
Australia rounded up the guns; now only criminals (and police) have guns in Australia.


They can spin, but they can't hide.

[Boomer 50]

18. You and I have been on opposite sides of issues in the past but......

I don't wish ill on anyone.....

Don't dismiss MS13 as a gang of hoodlums. That has been one of the major mistakes in the US. MS13 originally developed as a revolutionary group that turned into a gang that has since turned into a complex and very well organized crime syndicate.

They are extremely dangerous and expanding into every corner of society. If MS13 is making inroads into Canada, you guys better put your foot on their necks now before it's too late. Not all of them wear gang colors or sport tatoos. Unfortunately, I've had personal contact with MS13 and some of them were wearing nice suits.

[iverglas]

19. oh, we do have experience

We have been plagued by biker gangs for decades, in ways not really known in the US. Similar sort of thing -- the romantic myth/legend of the bikers, when in fact they are exactly like any other organized crime syndicate, doing exactly the same things for exactly the same reasons and using exactly the same methods. Nice suits, lawyers, accountants and all.

I wasn't familiar with this particular organization, so I'll be keeping an eye out for news!

[Tejas]

11. "to a considerable extent neutralized"

Foolish to bet your farm on intarweb perusings and daily view of the local paper. But then again, as they say, every fool has his/her day......but today is not it.

[iverglas]

12. if only I knew what "intarweb" was

I'll assume it was one of those intended insult things that, sigh, once again missed its mark.

Foolish to bet your farm on intarweb perusings and daily view of the local paper.

I attempted to choose my words carefully rather than go into a several decades-long historical account of the activities of the Hell's Angels and their proxies and adversaries in Canada.

I did not intend to convey the message that they were no longer active or no longer a problem.

Police, and sensible people in general, recognize that crime will be with us for the foreseeable future, and that where there is money to be made from criminal activities, there will be criminal organizations engaged in them. The fact is that the Hell's Angels are not currently presenting immediate threats to the safety of the public. This was not true 10 or 15 years ago, when the internecine biker gang wars were indeed putting the public in danger. What has been "neutralized" is the threat to the general public, since biker gangs are generally not engaging in bombings or robberies or shootouts that endanger non-involved parties.


I don't know what farm I'm allegedly betting, or what you might think you know about my knowledge. As far as I know, I'm betting nothing, and you know fuck all about my knowledge, which doesn't actually happen to be based on either random internet sightings or a local newspaper. Not everyone is as stupid or uninformed as you or your circle of intimates would appear to be -- given that I can think of nothing you might be basing your assumptions about other people's intelligence and level of information on other than your own experience.

[Tejas]

13. and then you woke up

"I don't know what farm I'm allegedly betting, or what you might think you know about my knowledge. As far as I know, I'm betting nothing, and you know fuck all about my knowledge, which doesn't actually happen to be based on either random internet sightings or a local newspaper. Not everyone is as stupid or uninformed as you or your circle of intimates would appear to be -- given that I can think of nothing you might be basing your assumptions about other people's intelligence and level of information on other than your own experience."

Thank you for your typical grasping at straws, I do in fact have closer experience than you might ever have dreamed.
No slight on you, much like your wannabe-knowledge of firearms, your take on the facts of the matter was to be expected. Rest assured you are better off surfing the net, reading the latest paper, and hanging on the words of talking heads on the tube. It's safer that way.

[iverglas]

14. well I'll be sure to take your advice

Rest assured you are better off surfing the net, reading the latest paper, and hanging on the words of talking heads on the tube. It's safer that way.

It sure would be less time-consuming than reading the 100-page wiretap warrants and the dozens of sentencing decisions I've had to read just recently. Unfortunately, less remunerative, though.

So maybe I'll ignore your advice for the ignorant noise it is after all.

You'd like my local newspaper though. It's right-wing crud written for the semi-literate.

[east texas lib]

3. Sure they will...

When they're six feet under.

[AtheistCrusader]

7. Digression

I'm glad I never got a tattoo of the number 13 anywhere. Growing up, I tended to embrace things that other people considered bad luck, the number 13 being one of them. I don't believe in luck or superstition, so it definetly amuses me to go against the grain here. In this case it might have caused me some real problems.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[iverglas]

8. the tats lead to interesting complications

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/205671

Gang culture hard call for judges
Vital pieces of evidence barred too often as prejudicial, police and Crowns claim
Apr 21, 2007 04:30 AM

Sometime between May 2 and June 1, 2004, Warren Abbey had a blue teardrop tattoo inscribed under his right eye. It was a symbol.

According to Crown attorney Sylvana Capogreco, that indelible teardrop amounted to a "confession" that he had killed his rival Simeon Peter on Jan. 8, 2004.

But even after she brought in a "certified gang specialist" who testified for days that the teardrop tattoo, specifically in gang culture, can be interpreted as a signature for killing a rival, Superior Court Justice Todd Archibald refused to allow the jury to hear the expert.

... But police feel that too often the decision-making from the bench – such as the exclusion of the teardrop tattoo – is hampering their fight against gangs when they already face major hurdles such as the seemingly intractable wall of silence that surrounds crimes.

"We have to start giving our jury members the benefit of the doubt that they have the intelligence to sift through what is going on in society," said one high-ranking Toronto police officer.

(The whole thing is interesting; I've tried not to cherry-pick but one might want to read it all.)

[SteveM]

15. No. (nt)

[iverglas]

16. wow

We have a winner.

Now, if only jody had had a point ...

[iverglas]

17. "I wonder how Canada will handle MS-13 gang activities?"

An interesting question, of course.

Me, I'm wondering when Canada banned knives.