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“Double shooting shakes gun-weary Toronto”, violent crime in wealthy Canadian neighborhood.

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:00 PM
Original message
“Double shooting shakes gun-weary Toronto”, violent crime in wealthy Canadian neighborhood.
Two 25-year-old men killed downtown; carjacking suspected
Even in a city where gun killings have become familiar - yesterday's shootings bring Toronto's homicide count for the year to 25 - the double slaying, perhaps the result of an abortive carjacking, was unusual.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Mr. Ellis and Mr. Martin were found in the front seat of a Range Rover that belongs to Mr. Ellis's stepfather, outside a friend's condo where they had been watching a basketball game on television. Both were wearing seat belts and the car's engine was running, police said.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

The car was parked immediately outside 798 Richmond St. West, an upscale, five-year-old rental high-rise, surrounded by townhouses. The area comprises a mix of new money and old, a few blocks west of the downtown entertainment district.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Tears in his eyes, a young man demanded that reporters respect the family's privacy and leave the street and its million-dollar homes and expensive cars.


Looks like some parts of Canada are experiencing an increase in violent crime.

Will citizens put their faith in Canadian law enforcement to protect them or demand that each citizen be allowed to keep and bear arms for self-defense?
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. What do you care?
Will you be trying to spread your gun lunacy up there, too?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. No more than Iverglas spreads hers down here.
It'll be ok.

David
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Why do you participate in discussions with members of the Democratic Party who support RKBA as we
say in our party platform, "We will protect Americans' Second Amendment right to own firearms"?

The Democratic Party does not support "gun lunacy" but we do support the natural, inherent, inalienable rights of law-abiding citizens.

Are you trying to tout your ant-gun lunacy in another nation?

Have a nice day. :hi:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. what is wrong with you?


Are you insinuating that zanne is not a resident of the US?

Do you have some basis for this insinuation?

Are you prepared to withdraw it as the false shit it is?

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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. I was born in Manchester, NH on April 4, 1952
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 04:01 PM by zanne
In Notre Dame Hospital. I've lived here all my life; my roots are deep.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Obviously you cannot defend your position so you revert to ad hominem attacks. n/t
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. We were never like this before.
Thank you, America, for having imported your problem into our country. :eyes:
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Do something about it then?
If Canada and Mexico wish to complain about the flow of guns from the US, they can withdraw from NAFTA and build a wall to keep out the illegal guns.

David
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Sorry but you imported the problem not the U.S.. Solve your own problems and not blame others. n/t
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. Jody cannot be wrong.
You have to understand that, when trying to reason with Jody, always praise him for the parts of his opinions that are close to correct. If he thinks he's losing, he just holds his breath until he's blue. He's never wrong. Understand that and you'll be all set.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Poor zanne, can't distinguish between the correct use of "import" and "export" and neither can
IntravenousDemilo.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Now you can sleep tight tonight, Jody. nt
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's not that far from Parkdale, which is dodgy. A lot of drug users.
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 01:06 PM by MookieWilson
Violent crime is so much lower there, I ride my bike all over town when I'm there.

In terms of crime and many things, Toronto has it all over most cities in the States.

I lived there for 4 years and go back regularly.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. The between the lines implications are that....
violent crime is expected and/or accepted in less than "upscale" neighborhoods, but that when it spills over into streets with million-dollar homes and expensive cars, it's simply gone too far.

IMO, citizens will run out and buy upscale breeds of dogs and expensive alarm systems.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Exactly, don't worry about crime as long as it does not affect the privileged. n/t
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. what the fuck is wrong with you?

Google "ephraim brown".

What basis do you, or does anyone else, have for making this assertion?

This particular gun crime happened to target two young men because of the vehicle they were driving, as far as we can tell.

Ephraim was a young boy of colour who was shot in gang crossfire in a subsidized housing neighbourhood.

If someone wants to say that there wasn't equal outcry about his death -- in fact, likely more -- than about these two upper-middle-class and apparently very worthy young men, give it a shot.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. please see post to jody above
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 01:50 PM by iverglas


I have no clue what would prompt you to engage in such baseless speculation, but it's insulting and an apology is warranted.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. there are millions of people here....
all atriving for a better life, yet only 25 murders since Jan 1! Toronto criminal underworld, biker communities are as large and ruthless as anywhere, yet some of them have never even fired a gun yet this year! you can go anywhere in the city, anywhere day or night (i have, being an ex security guard for 4 years, often in large apartment complexes) and never have any trouble; even when the gangers are out in force, they generally respect those who respect them- meaning don't stare at them or make eye contact w/out nodding. Few people, even the criminals, carry guns doing ordinary daily biz- it's a habit that becomes known very quickly, and the gangs use the police to get rid of crazies (which explains the relatively small death rate) the two young guys killed friday were targetted executions, it appears, which suggest there's alot more to the story, possibly money/family or soon...the killer left a screaming girl in the backseat, though she saw him.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. The article raises the question, "Is violent crime with guns increasing in Canada"? n/t
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. it does? where?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. just a correction
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 01:48 PM by iverglas

the two young guys killed friday were targetted executions, it appears, which suggest there's alot more to the story, possibly money/family or soon

Actually, in the articles in the Saturday Star, the police were at extreme pains to say that this was NOT the case, that there was absolutely NOTHING in their background to suggest there was any thing personal in the murders, and that there was NO reason to be suspecting this.

Carjacking seems to have been the motive. Unless things have changed since I last looked.

From the Globe article cited:
"These two victims were not at all known - I repeat, not at all known - to the Toronto police or any police agency in Canada." The only police record of either stems from when one of them lost his passport about five years ago, another homicide investigator said.

... After speaking to the traumatized young woman, Det. Sgt. Giroux said the shootings may have been part of an abortive car jacking, and that - for reasons he did not divulge - the killer appeared familiar with the area.

"We're certainly alive to the fact that this was a very expensive, high-end vehicle and I'm looking at it as a marketable thing to steal."



typo fixed
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. it wasn't carjacking...
that was on the news just at noon...the police say if carjacking, there would have been some words, but nothing was said, just shooting. I have no idea what the problem was, and am extrapolating from reading true crime- innocent people do become involved in things; that's often the worst part of the tragedy! Anyway, it's a fiction that the city's 'crime weary', as virtually no one is affected by crime; it's the pigmedia rutting in public with each other, as usual, to benefit reactionarkies in government, garner more money for police, and to blame anyone else but themselves for the sense of violence (several killings the media used to trump up the gun violence story were actually hits the police instigated by saying the victims were helping them, iow were rats, and the newsmedia conveniently never mentioned this proxy murder by the police)..the media is so utterly bankrupt as pretentious bastions of morality it's amazing
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. welllll

I can't say I've heard tell of much of what you're telling, and so I'll be reserving judgment.

I don't think it's accurate to say people are "weary of gun violence", true. I think they're horrified and outraged by it, though.

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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. actually, this one's a real mystery
from Toronto Star:
snip>
Shootings at such close range bear no hallmarks of a thrill kill. With no heated exchange, it seems unlikely to have been a drug deal gone bad. And since the vehicle was riddled with bullet holes, a carjacking appears unlikely.

"If you want to do that, you don't shoot the vehicle," Giroux said. "You make demands for people to get out."

What concerns detectives is the shooter could not have known that Ellis, Martin and his girlfriend would return to the building just moments after they sped away.

They had been watching the NBA final at the home of Jake McCombs, the son of Justice David McCombs, the judge in the recent high-profile trial of Robert Baltovich.
<snip


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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I see now
Hadn't kept up on the news since the big stories on it in the Saturday Star.



From the article you quote:

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/443689

Det. Sgt. Gary Giroux will not accept that Toronto has become a place where citizens are gunned down in random, unprovoked attacks.

"I don't believe it," he said yesterday standing metres from a flower memorial marking the site of the latest shootings to shake a city used to gun violence.

The detective heads the investigation into who killed Dylan Ellis and Oliver Martin, two affluent, educated young men, best friends since childhood, and why they were targeted shortly after midnight on Friday.

"These people were the intended targets," said Giroux, a veteran Toronto police detective. "And there's going to be a motive. I've done this for almost 12 years and there always is one. There's going to be a catalyst for it."

But so far, he cannot identify the "animus" that led to a hail of bullets as the two victims sat in their idling SUV outside a condominium belonging to their friend, the son of a prominent judge.


So ... that's kinda one man's opinion.

Ah, okay, now they've explained the return to the building -- they'd accidentally taken somebody else's keys.

So really -- damned hard to hit a moving target like that, at least if the person who did the shooting really was on a bicycle.


I can't help it, I know it's in appropriate, but the story just reminded me so much of an empsode of Night Heat and one of its little Canadian touches.

Detective is standing on a corner on Yonge Street, thief on bicycle snatches woman's purse, she starts yelling, detective grabs bike from guy waiting at the light and says "Police business!!" and takes off after the thief on a high-speed two-wheel chase.

Then when they bring the victim in to identify him, she says: "That's the one, the vicious little turd."

Or so I remember it. ;)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. tell us, jody

Will someone please ask jody to tell us?

Will citizens put their faith in Canadian law enforcement to protect them or demand that each citizen be allowed to keep and bear arms for self-defense?

Exactly how would this situation be different if the two young men in question had each had a pistol in his pants?

What is your point?

If it's to display your crass ignorance and rudeness yet again, you've succeeded.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
14. Toronto's homicide count for the year to 25


If we assume we are talking about Toronto proper, that's a population of about 2.5 million.

Rounding the time off, we have 25 homicides in the first 6 months of the year.

That gives us a homicide rate of 2/100,000.

That's exactly what Canada's homicide rate was last year (Toronto's was slightly lower, as I recall).

Who will be the first to name a US city of that size with a homicide rate of 2/100,000 anytime in the last several decades?

What's your point, jody?


Looks like some parts of Canada are experiencing an increase in violent crime.

Really? It looks that way to you? How can you tell? "Increase" from what?

Do let us in on your sources. Or at least the source where we can buy the funny spectacles you're using.

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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. Jody...The people in Canada are subjects..
They defiantly do not have the same rights and freedoms of US Citizens.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I keep tellin you we're verbs


They defiantly do not have the same rights and freedoms of US Citizens.

And you're rigiht! We have more better rights and freedoms, and we are just a tad defiant about it!

We're always happy to share, though.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. read 'em and drool

Just because you seem to want to know.
______________________________________

Constitution Act, 1982

PART I

Canadian charter of rights and freedoms

Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:
Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms

Rights and freedoms in Canada

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Fundamental Freedoms

Fundamental freedoms

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

a) freedom of conscience and religion;
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
d) freedom of association.

Democratic Rights

Democratic rights of citizens

3. Every citizen of Canada has the right to vote in an election of members of the House of Commons or of a legislative assembly and to be qualified for membership therein.

Maximum duration of legislative bodies

4. (1) No House of Commons and no legislative assembly shall continue for longer than five years from the date fixed for the return of the writs of a general election of its members.

Continuation in special circumstances

(2) In time of real or apprehended war, invasion or insurrection, a House of Commons may be continued by Parliament and a legislative assembly may be continued by the legislature beyond five years if such continuation is not opposed by the votes of more than one-third of the members of the House of Commons or the legislative assembly, as the case may be.

Annual sitting of legislative bodies

5. There shall be a sitting of Parliament and of each legislature at least once every twelve months

Mobility Rights

Mobility of citizens

6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.
Rights to move and gain livelihood

(2) Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right

a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and
b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province.

Limitation

(3) The rights specified in subsection (2) are subject to

a) any laws or practices of general application in force in a province other than those that discriminate among persons primarily on the basis of province of present or previous residence; and
b) any laws providing for reasonable residency requirements as a qualification for the receipt of publicly provided social services.

Affirmative action programs

(4) Subsections (2) and (3) do not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration in a province of conditions of individuals in that province who are socially or economically disadvantaged if the rate of employment in that province is below the rate of employment in Canada.

Legal Rights

Life, liberty and security of person

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

Search or seizure

8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.

Detention or imprisonment

9. Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned.

Arrest or detention

10. Everyone has the right on arrest or detention

a) to be informed promptly of the reasons therefor;
b) to retain and instruct counsel without delay and to be informed of that right; and
c) to have the validity of the detention determined by way of habeas corpus and to be released if the detention is not lawful.

Proceedings in criminal and penal matters

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right

a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence;
b) to be tried within a reasonable time;
c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;
d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;
e) not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause;
f) except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five years or a more severe punishment;
g) not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations;
h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again; and
i) if found guilty of the offence and if the punishment for the offence has been varied between the time of commission and the time of sentencing, to the benefit of the lesser punishment.

Treatment or punishment

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Self-crimination

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Interpreter

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Equality Rights

Equality before and under law and equal protection and benefit of law

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Affirmative action programs

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

Official Languages of Canada

Official languages of Canada

16. (1) English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada.

Official languages of New Brunswick

(2) English and French are the official languages of New Brunswick and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the legislature and government of New Brunswick.

Advancement of status and use

(3) Nothing in this Charter limits the authority of Parliament or a legislature to advance the equality of status or use of English and French.

English and French linguistic communities in New Brunswick

16.1. (1) The English linguistic community and the French linguistic community in New Brunswick have equality of status and equal rights and privileges, including the right to distinct educational institutions and such distinct cultural institutions as are necessary for the preservation and promotion of those communities.

Role of the legislature and government of New Brunswick

(2) The role of the legislature and government of New Brunswick to preserve and promote the status, rights and privileges referred to in subsection (1) is affirmed.

Proceedings of Parliament

17. (1) Everyone has the right to use English or French in any debates and other proceedings of Parliament.

Proceedings of New Brunswick legislature

(2) Everyone has the right to use English or French in any debates and other proceedings of the legislature of New Brunswick.

Parliamentary statutes and records

18. (1) The statutes, records and journals of Parliament shall be printed and published in English and French and both language versions are equally authoritative.

New Brunswick statutes and records

(2) The statutes, records and journals of the legislature of New Brunswick shall be printed and published in English and French and both language versions are equally authoritative.

Proceedings in courts established by Parliament

19. (1) Either English or French may be used by any person in, or in any pleading in or process issuing from, any court established by Parliament.

Proceedings in New Brunswick courts

(2) Either English or French may be used by any person in, or in any pleading in or process issuing from, any court of New Brunswick.

Communications by public with federal institutions

20. (1) Any member of the public in Canada has the right to communicate with, and to receive available services from, any head or central office of an institution of the Parliament or government of Canada in English or French, and has the same right with respect to any other office of any such institution where

a) there is a significant demand for communications with and services from that office in such language; or
b) due to the nature of the office, it is reasonable that communications with and services from that office be available in both English and French.

Communications by public with New Brunswick institutions

(2) Any member of the public in New Brunswick has the right to communicate with, and to receive available services from, any office of an institution of the legislature or government of New Brunswick in English or French.

Continuation of existing constitutional provisions

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Rights and privileges preserved

22. Nothing in sections 16 to 20 abrogates or derogates from any legal or customary right or privilege acquired or enjoyed either before or after the coming into force of this Charter with respect to any language that is not English or French.

Minority Language Educational Rights

Language of instruction

23. (1) Citizens of Canada

a) whose first language learned and still understood is that of the English or French linguistic minority population of the province in which they reside, or
b) who have received their primary school instruction in Canada in English or French and reside in a province where the language in which they received that instruction is the language of the English or French linguistic minority population of the province,

have the right to have their children receive primary and secondary school instruction in that language in that province.

Continuity of language instruction

(2) Citizens of Canada of whom any child has received or is receiving primary or secondary school instruction in English or French in Canada, have the right to have all their children receive primary and secondary school instruction in the same language.

Application where numbers warrant

(3) The right of citizens of Canada under subsections (1) and (2) to have their children receive primary and secondary school instruction in the language of the English or French linguistic minority population of a province

a) applies wherever in the province the number of children of citizens who have such a right is sufficient to warrant the provision to them out of public funds of minority language instruction; and
b) includes, where the number of those children so warrants, the right to have them receive that instruction in minority language educational facilities provided out of public funds.

Enforcement

Enforcement of guaranteed rights and freedoms

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Exclusion of evidence bringing administration of justice into disrepute

(2) Where, in proceedings under subsection (1), a court concludes that evidence was obtained in a manner that infringed or denied any rights or freedoms guaranteed by this Charter, the evidence shall be excluded if it is established that, having regard to all the circumstances, the admission of it in the proceedings would bring the administration of justice into disrepute.

General

Aboriginal rights and freedoms not affected by Charter

25. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any aboriginal, treaty or other rights or freedoms that pertain to the aboriginal peoples of Canada including

a) any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763; and
b) any rights or freedoms that now exist by way of land claims agreements or may be so acquired.

Other rights and freedoms not affected by Charter

26. The guarantee in this Charter of certain rights and freedoms shall not be construed as denying the existence of any other rights or freedoms that exist in Canada.

Multicultural heritage

27. This Charter shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with the preservation and enhancement of the multicultural heritage of Canadians.

Rights guaranteed equally to both sexes

28. Notwithstanding anything in this Charter, the rights and freedoms referred to in it are guaranteed equally to male and female persons.

Rights respecting certain schools preserved

29. Nothing in this Charter abrogates or derogates from any rights or privileges guaranteed by or under the Constitution of Canada in respect of denominational, separate or dissentient schools.(93)

Application to territories and territorial authorities

30. A reference in this Charter to a Province or to the legislative assembly or legislature of a province shall be deemed to include a reference to the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories, or to the appropriate legislative authority thereof, as the case may be.

Legislative powers not extended

31. Nothing in this Charter extends the legislative powers of any body or authority.

Application of Charter

Application of Charter

32. (1)This Charter applies

a) to the Parliament and government of Canada in respect of all matters within the authority of Parliament including all matters relating to the Yukon Territory and Northwest Territories; and
b) to the legislature and government of each province in respect of all matters within the authority of the legislature of each province.

Exception

(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), section 15 shall not have effect until three years after this section comes into force.

Exception where express declaration

33. (1) Parliament or the legislature of a province may expressly declare in an Act of Parliament or of the legislature, as the case may be, that the Act or a provision thereof shall operate notwithstanding a provision included in section 2 or sections 7 to 15 of this Charter.

Operation of exception

(2) An Act or a provision of an Act in respect of which a declaration made under this section is in effect shall have such operation as it would have but for the provision of this Charter referred to in the declaration.

Five year limitation

(3) A declaration made under subsection (1) shall cease to have effect five years after it comes into force or on such earlier date as may be specified in the declaration.

Re-enactment

(4) Parliament or the legislature of a province may re-enact a declaration made under subsection (1).

Five year limitation

(5) Subsection (3) applies in respect of a re-enactment made under subsection (4).

Citation

34. This Part may be cited as the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. virginia mountainman, I bow to your wisdom. There is a big difference between citizens who must beg
a ruler or government for rights and the government of the United States based on a contract between sovereign individuals identified as "We the People" who enumerated certain rights which are off limits to government and protected unenumerated rights with the Ninth Amendment to our Constitution.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. it's such a shame that jody can't read

Doesn't that blindfold chafe from time to time? If only you could actually SEE what an ass you make of yourself, jody, you might decide to take it off.

Catch-22, eh?

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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Yep Jody...
We are the People, they, are the subjects.
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