Guilt-tripping the open carry movement: James Carroll on guns

[friendly_iconoclast]

Once again, America's self appointed hair shirt gives his opinion, this time
universalizing his childhood feelings:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/06/16/open_carry_guns_at_our_childrens_risk/

...Now an "open carry" movement encourages gun owners to wear their weapons ostentatiously on their belts, "to make a firearm," in the words of a Los Angeles Times story last week, "as common an accessory as an iPod." Or, as one open carrier said, "Hey, we're normal people who carry guns."

Get used to it. In most states, there is no law against license-holders cradling a rifle on the street, or holstering a firearm on a hip, like Wyatt Earp. But since the close of the last frontier, gun display, except in movies, has been culturally taboo. The power of that prohibition is what stirred me at my father's dresser. "Open carry" aims to remove such visceral negativity, though the taboo amounts, in fact, to last ditch gun control. The "normalizing" of guns will inevitably normalize their use. From movies to legislation to political rhetoric - and now to "accessory" fashion: guns galore. And who, pray tell, will bear, not the arms, but the consequences?

In despair over unchecked gun-carnage in Chicago schools, Mayor Richard Daley asked, "Why is America turning its back on its children when it comes to gun violence?" The answer is buried deep in the national psyche, and I am a case in point. The gun is a totemic object, with meanings that drill far below surface arguments about self-defense, the sport of hunting, standing militias, or the intent of the Framers. Children die because these deeper meanings of the gun go unreckoned with....

I never much agreed with Carroll, but up until now he has managed to avoid pomo gibberish like the above.
There are a couple of problems with his screed:

1.Chicago (and Illinois) don't allow open carry.
2. There isn't "unchecked gun carnage in Chicago schools".
3. Places that allow open carry have lower murder and gun violence rates than places that don't.
4. The LA Times article was referring to Colorado. What this has to do with children in Chicago is
unclear.

...In the great American gun debate, some would forgo the primordial shame the weapon still generates. Hence the "open carry" movement. But given the gun-deaths of children, and the sponsoring gun-paralysis of politics, Americans should have more shame, not less. A gun is no iPod. Shame is the children's last protection...

"Primordial shame"? Indulge in projection much?
Children in Chicago will be safer if Colorado changes its laws?

Carroll projects his feelings about his fathers' handgun upon an entire nation, and asks that others
forgo their rights accordingly.

[Mountainman]

1. Unless you are a cop or guard I think there is something wrong with people who want to carry guns.

It makes someone feel more powerful and the need to feel more powerful is a mental problem in my mind. Most of the people I see carrying guns are wing nuts and gang members. Both groups that I feel have a lot of mental issues.

[Mythsaje]

4. Not my first choice of weapon...

Too inherently deadly. If you have to use a gun, you have to be prepared to kill. As my dad always said, "Don't show it if you're not going to pull it. Don't pull it unless you're prepared to aim it. Don't aim it unless you're prepared to fire it, and sure as hell don't fire it unless you're prepared to kill someone."

My Dad's no wingnut. He doesn't carry now, but I imagine he used to from time to time. He skirted the edge of social circles where it wasn't uncommon. Saw him disarm a guy half-drunk at a party because the cocky bastard tried to draw on him. Knocked him clean out. My dad doesn't even remember the incident, but I do. And I never forgot it. A gun, deadly as it can be, is by necessity reliant on the fortitude and foresight of the person who wants to use it. In other words, it doesn't do you a damn bit of good if you can't get it out of your pants before someone cold-cocks you.

A gun represents deadly force and, though there is some little truth to the adage "an armed society is a polite society," the fact is there's a inherent weakness in trusting something that can kill as easily as it can wound, and cannot subdue at all except through threat which may or may not be of use.

Years later I found myself under a similar threat, in the bar my ex tended. A guy came in late one Sunday night after she'd cut him off. He had a monster of a pistol stuck in the front of his pants and a woman's faux fur jacket missing a pocket he used to keep ahold of the damn thing.

My ex just eyed him like she might a snake and didn't say anything as he stalked around the bar, trying to play tough for the three or four people there that night. And the whole time I was following him just outside of reach until I deemed I'd made him nervous enough. When I backed off, he relaxed and monologued for a minute before heading for the door.

"You know I have a gun," he said as he stood in the half-open door. I nodded and, though I wasn't watching her, I had the impression that my ex did as well. He blinked at us and headed out into the night, stopping just long enough to show another patron who was leaving the size of the weapon he had in his pants. By the description it was a .357 or .44 revolver ala Dirty Harry.

I have no love of guns. But I think they have their place, and sometimes their place is on the hip of someone who not only knows HOW to use them, but knows when not to do so. It's not the guns that I can see that disturb me the most. It's the ones I can't.

[pipoman]

8. If you live and frequent areas which doesn't present

a threat of violence, I can see your position. If you lived in a section of society which posed a threat of violence you may feel differently. Not all neighborhoods and areas are as safe as others.

[Mountainman]

12. I used to live in Highland Park in Los Angeles, to get into a gang in Sept you had to shoot someone

We could hear the gun fire outside our apartments. Our apt manager's husband was shot going to his car in the morning.

I still would not carry a gun there. And I feel there is something wrong with people who feel they need to, no matter what side of the law you are on.

Even in the late 1800's towns in the West realized it was not a good thing to carry a gun in town and outlawed carrying a weapon in town.

[pipoman]

14. I can understand a person's decision

not to own a firearm. I can't understand a desire to take away another law abiding citizen's ability to defend them self and their family with the most effective defensive tool. The argument that anyone who carries a gun for self defense is paranoid while proclaiming the large amount of people who carry guns to victimize the same people is problematic for me.
'

[Boomer 50]

18. You'll believe that until the first time you need one

A gun is something you carry hoping that you'll never have to use it but, as in my case, when the safety of my family is involved, I know that if I have to choose between my family being harmed or an attacker being harmed, the choice is easy.

Some people call it insurance. You have it even though you never want to use it.

[Anexio]

19. What you see isn't everything

The people that you see carrying guns are people that want YOU to see them.

Responsible gun carriers are not going to let you know they are packing, fer cryin' out loud.

The wingnuts and gang bangers are just showing off. If you're so scardy cat of guns then think about all the sane people, people that practice at a range, that are carrying, and hope that if your life if threatened they'll come to your rescue.

[AtheistCrusader]

2. I'm not a fan of Open Carry

But I don't understand the link between OC and school shootings. Has there been a rash of legal open carry citizens walking into schools and shooting children?

[nebenaube]

3. well

When I lived out in Tucson open carry was the standard. And it made a whole lot of sense when one was out in the desert. Here in Wisconsin no such thing... Even my Bow has to be in a case.

[iverglas]

5. seems pretty obvious to me

Gun militants have no shame. Jeez, that's obvious to a garden slug.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. Since we are stereotyping, neither do Canadian DU members.

Always exploiting someone's misery to attempt to prove a point.

David

[OffWithTheirHeads]

6. I bought my first gun after watching King George respond to Katrina

It was a Remington, 870, 12 ga. shotgun with an extended magazine, an 18" barrel, a folding stock, and a pistol grip. I Modified it by Vang Comping the barrel and adding a heat shield. It was the first gun I had owned since I was 12. I'm now 57. I live in earthquake country and an event similar to Katrina is extreamly possible where I live. Under this administration, you are on your own! It really is a "Kill or be killed situation. As I watched King George continue his assult on our Constitution, I realized that I might now, have to fight for liberty as much as as food. I decided that I was willing to fight the forces of Faschisim and the assult on The Constitution as much as I was willing to protect my family.


I now own several guns. I take them to the range regularly to make sure I can use them proficiently and effectivly.

I hope I never have to use them to protect My family or my country but if that time comes, I have decided that it is my responsibility to be there.

[Jack_DeLeon]

7. I prefer concealed carry, but I've got no problem with open carry...

I support a person's right to choose how they want to live their life in all regards as long as they arent harming others.

Unfortunately even here in Texas individuals do not have the option to openly carry handguns, I am however licensed by the state to carry a concealed handgun and I frequently do so.

I have however on a few occasions seen plain clothed individuals in my store shopping while openly carrying handguns. One time it was lady who also wore a badge of some sort clipped on her belt (turned out she worked for the secret service), as for the other occasions who knows. In all likely hood they were also law enforcement officers of some sort, perhaps just citizens of other states who were used to open carry in there state and assumed it was legal here too, or maybe they were hardened criminals who just needed to pick up a jug of milk to go with their bowl of cereal at home. In any case I treated them all the same as any other person, I looked at them, sized them up, and went back to business as usual. I carry a handgun but one should never over react you should only act when someone is being harmed or being threatened with harm.

[michreject]

9. I carry concealed too

but would love to carry open. I spend 100+ for a holster and 1,000+ for a gun and no one gets to see the beauty of it, except me.

[aikoaiko]

10. "the primordial shame the weapon still generates" that's just weird.

He should be ashamed of himself.

[Irreverend IX]

11. His analysis of the origins of shame is really weird...

I wonder if he has any supporting documentation. Shame is present in many social animals (a dog that's been scolded will certainly exhibit shame) and is connected to a wide variety of things besides violence.

[SteveM]

16. So what is the "deeper meaning of the gun"...?

It is peculiar to me he would use "shame" and "prurience" when both are the products of prohibition, when he should know full well the impact of government prohibitions.

As to shame, early man, and weaponry, the "shame" is realizing that living means killing. It is rather easy for vegetarians to avoid such issues since they do not have to use a weapon to kill, and the alternative methods of killing are so "removed." Not many veggies law awake at night knowing that in less than 20 years some 3,000 square miles of bottom land habitat in Louisiana were plowed over for the sake of soybeans and other staples. No hunters (ancient or modern) could accomplish that kind of destruction.

As to eliminating our own species, war has until recently been the biggest threat. And war as "social policy" didn't start until modern agriculture.

[old mark]

15. It is legal here in Pennsylvania

and it does seem to be something of a growing movement. Many of the fish and game/rod and gun/shooting clubs have groups of people who meet regularly in various restaurants, all wearing handguns. They have lunch, a short meeting, and leave.
Most places seem to have no problem with this, some do.

I think this will become more accepted over the next few years, like it or not.

I'm not too keen on this, but the person who wrote that article is a serious moron.
More children die in bathtubs each year than from any gun related cause.

mark

[east texas lib]

17. I've had a CHL since '96 and have carried a concealed weapon all that time.

Personally, I do not believe open carry to be in the best interest of the armed citizen in a large
metropolitan setting. The tactical advantage of surprise is lost, and possible attackers will plan
accordingly. IMHO it is far better to reveal nothing of your weaponry or mode of deployment until
the time comes. Out in the field or around the farm or ranch is another matter. Out here most
people have at least on rifle or pistol in the pick-up. And that probably won't change.

[spin]

20. Open carry is NOT a good idea for self defense...

TACTICAL ADVANTAGE #1: KEEP YOUR FIREARM CONCEALED

Here's the scenario: It's 9:25 p.m. and you're last in line at the ice cream shop. Unknown to you, two perps have been watching the clerk make the evening deposit for the last 3 days. The perps think it is too risky trying to rob the clerk while he is dropping the deposit bag in the bank's well lit and patrolled night depository, so they decide a quick armed robbery at closing time is in order. You've lived in Arizona all your life and are quite aware of the law which allows open carry and you even think its macho and a good idea. Who would ever give trouble to a person who carries an open hand gun on their side? Well, you are about to find out. The robbers burst in the front door and what do they see? A scared teenager armed only with an ice cream dipper, AND you, with your 1911 strapped to your side.

Since they perceive you will draw your handgun, they fire first, and you drop to the floor without having drawn your weapon. Is it fair--no! Is it real--yes! Time for the big question: "What did you do wrong that ended up costing you your life?" You laid your Aces on the table while you were playing poker--You gave up an extremely important tactical advantage by displaying your sidearm thereby broadcasting the exact location of a hindrance to a criminal's evil intent. The greatest tactical advantage you possess is surprise! You lose that advantage when you wear your firearm openly. You can also lose the advantage by flashing (allowing it to be seen), by printing (allowing the outline of the gun to be seen), or by bragging to everyone that you carry a concealed weapon. Would the scenario be different if your handgun was concealed? Probably so, although you might be missing your wallet and a little pride, but the advantage gained is that you survived a deadly confrontation! Never give up your advantage of surprise. The only person who should ever know about your handgun is a perp trying to take you down. http://usconcealedcarry.org/free/80pctmental.html

Lots of good info about using a firearm for self-defense at the link.

[mvccd1000]

22. Nice scenario, but...

... have you EVER heard of one like that happening? How many hardened criminals are going to plan a robbery, case it out for three days, and then still go through with it if they see an armed citizen in the store? None, I would guess.

If you read the papers, most crimes are crimes of opportunity; some tweaker went driving around until he found something that seemed like an easy target. By definition, a place with a visibly armed citizen is probably not an "easy target."

Let's look at a more realistic scenario: You have to go to the ATM late at night so you have cash for work tomorrow. You're standing there punching in your PIN and a car pulls up behind you but no one gets out.

Scenario #1: You don't have any means of protection.
Scenario #2: You have a legally concealed pistol.
Scenario #3: You have an openly displayed pistol.

In both #1 and #2, you offer NO deterrence to a potential criminal. Scenario #3 is going to make 90+ percent of criminals turn around and go look for a different ATM.

To me, it seems like people who open carry would rather avoid a crime, and people who concealed carry would like the chance to "surprise" a criminal and use their gun.

[spin]

23. Points can be made for both sides of the issue....

True, it may discourage a criminal.

On the other hand it might not.

In Tampa, where I used to live, gun store owners usually carried firearms. It would be logical to assume that the last place a robber would try to hit would be a gun store with a clerk who had a .45 auto or 9mm strapped to his side. It sounds like a really stupid idea to attempt to rob a gun store when the owner (who probably is an excellent shot) is armed.

Out of curiosity, I asked a shop owner if anyone had ever tried to rob him. Being amazed when he said that it had happened, I conducted a survey in the other gun stores I haunted. The majority of owners told me they had had at least one attempt. One told me that the customer clubbed him over the head when he opened the cash register, grabbed the money out of the drawer and ran out of the store. The owner recovered and chased him down the street with a .45 in his hand. Wisely he decided not to shoot. He would have faced a lot of legal problems had he shot a fleeing robber in the back.

A criminal can easily obtain a gun, but if he can grab a gun from an individual carrying openly, it's free. A team of two or three can do this easily. One approaches you from the front to get your attention. His partner or partners come at you from behind. Remember a lot of trained police officers have lost their lives when a suspect snatched their gun from its holster. That's why most police holsters have thumb breaks to make pulling the weapon more difficult.

Of course, open carry makes you the center of attraction in public. A lot of people will look at you like some sort of nut looking for a gunfight. In Florida if all the concealed weapons permit holders were allowed to carry openly and did, the tourist trade would suffer. Most tourists have no idea how many weapons are being carried by Floridians on the streets and in the stores and restaurants they visit.

But in other areas of the country, especially small rural towns in the west, open carry might be a good idea. The bad guys who visit might think twice before committing any crimes and go back to the more criminal friendly urban areas. Why mess around in a town full of armed cowboys?

As for your ATM scenario, A really good idea is to avoid outside ATM machines after dark. If you go looking for trouble, chances are it will find you.

[spin]

24. Texas movement for open carry...

If Duane Suddeth had his way, he could strap on a handgun and wear it — anytime, anywhere — without concealing it.

That day has not come in Texas, but the 42-year-old Bedford man is among thousands hoping it is on its way.

"This is the public’s right," Suddeth said. "Whether they choose to exercise that or not is up to them."

Texas, despite its independence and frontier reputation, is one of only six states where handguns cannot — in some form — legally be worn in plain view.
http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/715977.html

It will be interesting to see if this movement has any success.