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russ1943 Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:12 PM
Original message
An abomination
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Had the founders only written the second half of the amendment, (as is frequently quoted by gun enthusiasts) this ruling could at least be based on some substance. By effectively ignoring the first half of the amendment this court violates a basic principle of Constitutional law. In his dissent, Justice John Paul Stevens was right when he said that the court has now established “a new constitutional right” that creates a “dramatic upheaval in the law.”

From the unanimous USSC opinion United States v. Miller; "With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces, the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view."

The declaration (THE 2ND AMENDMENT) and guarantee (PROTECTION IT PROVIDES) were written for the obvious purpose (NOT JUST A PURPOSE BUT THE OBVIOUS PURPOSE) of assuring the continuation (INSURE IT’S EXISTENCE) and render possible the effectiveness (ASSURE IT’S SUCCESS) of such forces (THE MILITIA).

This poorly reasoned HELLER ruling takes our nation another step closer to additional needless deaths and debilitating injuries.
Fabricating a completely new self defense relationship to the second amendment out of whole cloth and ignoring legal precedent, diminishes our society, especially the rule of law. Scalia’s claim to be an originalist becomes clearer. He can see rights that never existed, their origins are in his rulings.

Tomorrow, next week, next month and next year there will be additional death and injuries because of this ruling.
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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. You are wrong.
The people are the militia referred to. I am a person. My right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Are you a male of good character between the ages of 17 and 45?
And what well regulated militia do you belong to? It is the official state Guard? Or perhaps a less official organization, like the militias organized in the 80s and 90s? I suppose The Order could be considered a militia, as it was under the command of a single person, and they were dedicated to protecting America against the scourge of the Zionist Occupied Government - you a member?

As the OP stated, it only works if you ignore the subject of the amendment (A well regulated militia) and the first defining clause (being necessary to the security of a free State).
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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Yes, I am.
I have been shooting and hunting for 35 years. I served 8 years in the military. I've never been arrested. I have plenty of firearms training. Can I keep my gun?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. You didn't answer my other questions.
What well regulated militia are you a member of? Who is you commanding officer - or are you, yourself, the commanding officer?

Do you really think the framers of the constitution put in the stuff about 'militia' as just meaningless filler?

Like the SC, you only addressed HALF the question.

It is a flawed ruling, based on a misreading of the amendment.

If you want the constitution to specifically say a personal right to keep and bear arms, amend the constitution to say so. Right now, it doesn't.
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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. "miltia" are trained citizens ready to answer their nations call.
Thats me.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Just ignore "well regulated".
They didn't mean it anyway.
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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I have to take a firearms test every time I purchase a handgun.
Thats my states' "regulation." So that makes me well regulated, doesnt it?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. That makes you competant, not regulated.
Regulated does not mean someone telling you how to shoot, but when not to.
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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. You're safe from me, ma'm.
I don't shoot nice ladies from North Carolina.
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Mercracer Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #26
41. Reading Comprehension Lacking
Please take the time to read the document. Actually being a member of an organized militia was never the intent. Once you read the ruling and the "explanation" written by Justice Scalia, please take the time to read some actual history.. Also read some of the supporting documents which detail the thoughts of those who conversed and debated regarding the wording of the 2nd Amendment. Many of them were certainly concerned about the individual right to keep arms for personal defense and hunting/sporting purposes in addition to being ready for the defense of their communities and country. Regarding actual history, Paul Revere's Ride by David Hackett Fischer is a good start. Much of the "militia" which was called out on April 19th 1775 had no formal training. Many groups were not very "regulated". All able bodied men were thought to be automatically part of the militia with few exceptions. The alarm was sounded in the town and the townspeople came out armed with their personal weapons..
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radioburning Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
57. You are mistaken on definition of "well regulated", just like most anti-gunners
The term "well regulated militia" was "borrowed" from the British constitution that was in place when our constitution and bill of rights were drafted. At the time England was busy trying to conquer the world and a major portion of the male population was in foreign countries fighting wars. In order to keep England safe at home it was not only encouraged that all men still in England between the ages of 15 and 50 own guns, it was a duty. Official officers would come to each house to inspect the firearms to make sure they were in good working order.

Well regulated=standards of good working condition, not regulations prohibiting gun ownership.
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aspergris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. And it's largely irrelevant
The right does not belong to the militia. It belong to the PEOPLE. The prefatory phrase mentions militia.

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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. READ THE DECISION
it adressed the entire question

they made a statement and made a reasonable arguement to back it up

serously read the entire decision- it took me 2 hours but i learned alot

"Do you really think the framers of the constitution put in the stuff about 'militia' as just meaningless filler?"
no- neither does the court- the stuff about the militia was defined to be a rationale or purpose for inclusion of the amendment in the bill of rights- as often was the sytle back in those days. This purpose does not limit or extend the right- its just what it says- its a purpose- a reason for it

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aspergris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
66. read it
It says the right is of the PEOPLE. not of the militia.

I can quote Volokh's Commonplace 2nd Amendment to give you a frame of reference on the prefatory phrase if you would like...

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. You might find it educational to read North Carolina law regarding the militia, links below.
Edited on Sat Jun-28-08 11:44 PM by jody
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #25
44. Well worth reading. Thanks (n/t)
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
30. Today's "well-regulated" militia's readiness requirements...
...consist solely of being an able-bodied-male between the ages of 17 and 45. That's it. That's all that state and federal laws requires.

Besides, the object being given (or the object who's rights are being recognized) are the people.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Some states say 17 to 64, e.g. Louisiana link below.
Edited on Sun Jun-29-08 12:47 AM by jody
http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=85523

ON EDIT ADD:
I believe some states include women in the militia.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #33
45. Wow, I still qualify...I'm only 62! ...
But I live in Florida. Oh well.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. Florida militia law below does not give age or gender restrictions. I don’t know how FL applies it.
250.02 Militia.--
(1) The militia consists of all able-bodied citizens of this state and all other able-bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens.

(2) The organized militia is composed of the National Guard and any other organized military forces that are authorized by law.

(3) The unorganized militia is composed of all persons who are subject to military duty but who are not members of units of the organized militia.

(4) Only persons exempt from military duty by the terms of federal law are exempt from military duty in this state.

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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
59. Your point only works if you torture the meaning of "regulated"
"regulated" in less current language styles was often used to describe the working order of something, such as having well-regulated sights on a gun so that your shots hit near your point of aim. Or that your local militia-age population owned current, up-to-date military-quality or better personal arms and were up on their skills to effectively make use of them.

Besides, it really doesn't matter what the first clause of the amendement says, it was window dressing in the first place. the meat of the sentence is "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". The first few words do not make a difference, because the amendment is, like all other amendments, a restriction on goverment powers, not an allowance for citizens.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. The civilized part of this world has reached a different verdict than
those assholes.
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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Where is the "civilized part"?
Is it in England? Is it in Canada? Is it in Australia?

Look at their passports. They are "subjects."
Look at my passport. I am a "citizen."

Big difference.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. how can anyone be this ignorant??

How??? How can anyone be this ignorant of the world in the century they live in?

And then how can such an ignorant person actually want to parade his/her ignorance around in public for the world to see?

Look at their passports. They are "subjects."

Why don't you try it? I've got a couple of expired ones I can send you. Then you can tell me where you see the word "subject" in it.

Or you could just tell us which ones you've seen it in. Know a lot of Brits do you? Australians? Canadians?

Actually: ever been outside your own county, let alone country?



http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/si81-86/whole.html

4. (1) Subject to this Order, any person who is a Canadian citizen under the Act may be issued a passport.

http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-29/whole.html

Citizenship Act


http://www.citizenship.gov.au/law-and-policy/legislation.htm

The Australian Citizenship Act 2007 is the legal basis for all citizenship provisions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law

The British Nationality Act 1948 established the status of Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC), the national citizenship of the United Kingdom and those places that were still British colonies on 1 January 1949, when the 1948 Act came into force.


Really. Feel free to join this century. You and all your fellow citizens.



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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. You're right, I've never been to Canada.
I don't care for French-speaking people, or hockey, or socialised medicine. So no reason to go.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. ah

You must be a Democrat. A liberal? A progressive?

I guess.

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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I'm an American first, ma'm....
...and all those other things second.

But I must confess a weird attraction to Margaret Trudeau...
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. funny

I'm a human being first.

I'm sure you know as much about Margaret Trudeau as you evidently do about most things.

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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. I'd like to know a bit more about her....
...if you get my drift.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. well, got google?

She has bipolar disorder. Her eldest son has been nominated as the Liberal candidate in a Montreal riding next time there's an election, and one of her other two sons was killed in an avalanche a few years ago. This happens occasionally to rich kids on ski trips.

She was featured in an episode in the first series of the CBC's copy of the BBC's Who Do You Think You Are? She learned that one of her recent ancestors was a founder of Raffles hotel in Singapore, and various other neat stuff, as we all generally do when we go fishing in family history.

One of her husbands post-Pierre was a scumball property investor. I once flattened him in a landlord-tenant case.

She has been receiving treatment, and she speaks publicly about her disorder. Obviously, the undiagnosed condition made her an easy target for exploitation, by individuals and the media. She's even older than I am.

Oh look, her own wiki entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Trudeau



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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #35
50. So you're saying she's "bi"? That's not a disorder.
Thats a good time....
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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
34. Oh really?
Edited on Sun Jun-29-08 01:16 AM by Joe Holmes
Canadians aren't subjects? Then why is there a picture of "The Queen" on your 20 dollar bill? What's that all aboot?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. are you a subject of George Bush?

He's your head of state.

The Queen is the head of state of Canada, under the 1982 Constitution.

You don't put your head of state on currency until they die. So I guess you're a subject of a bunch of old dead white guys.

Our paper currency doesn't have a lot of Queens on it these days. Do google.

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Joe Holmes Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #36
51. Our paper money has no Queens on it.
Or Kings, or Barry Melrose, or any of those other "quaint" Canadian royalty people. And why are you so concerned about American gun issues? Didn't all your Ministers in white wigs and Parliament smocks take them away from you? Hasn't the Duke of Saskatchewan eliminated crime in your country of 32,000 people?
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
73. What is the civilized part of the world?
You mean europe? Why follow Europe everywhere, didn't people come to the new world specifically to get away from that atmosphere?
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. You appear to be confused on several points.
First, the Supreme Court is not bound by prior rulings, especially barely reasoned ones like Miller.

Second, even Miller is not saying what you understand it to say, especially when read in the light of prior rulings that held the right to be personal.

To quote myself:

Consider an analogy. “Our neighbor has a pit bull,” a father warns his son. “If you don‟t want to get mauled,
don‟t climb the fence and steal his apples.” A decent son would hear that the neighbor owns apples, that it
is wrong to steal those apples, and that his personal security is an incentive to behave honorably.

A sociopath would hear that the neighbor has apples that should be left alone in order to avoid the pit bull.
If the neighbor took the dog on vacation, he would feel free to steal apples. He would even quote his
father‟s words as authorization. (A Brady lawyer would agree with the sociopath, adding the scholarly
observation that the apples existed because of the pit bull.8)

Now the son knows that his father means to instill moral values. Of course he does not approve of theft in
the absence of pit bulls. It insults his father to ignore the words “steal” and “his.”9 Likewise, the Brady
lawyer knows (or should know) that government exists to secure our rights. Of course the Founders didn‟t
approve of theft in the absence of security threats. It insults them to ignore the words “right” and
“infringe.”

It is always wrong to steal apples; it is always wrong to infringe rights.

Source: www.obamaonsecond.com


The command(don't climb the fence and steal apples) and guarantee (protection provided by the son obeying) were written for the obvious purpose (NOT JUST A PURPOSE BUT THE OBVIOUS PURPOSE) of assuring the life (INSURE IT’S EXISTENCE) and preserve the health (prevent the mauling) of the boy (the father's son). It's still wrong to violate the neighbor's right by stealing, dog or no dog, despite the father's obvious purpose.

Or would you agree that the son may freely steal in the absence of pit bulls?

I respectfully suggest that you read my open letter at www.obamaonsecond.com . It is full of little known historical facts and complete with links to relevant Court cases. If you want to dig deeper, I recommend The Bill of Rights by Akhil Reed Amar, Yale professor.



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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. If nothing else, this will be an entertaining thread.
:popcorn: (which is funny because I'm actually eating popcorn at this moment.)
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. Get used to law-abiding citizens exercising their inalienable right to keep and bear arms for
self-defense.

That's been the law since the earliest constitutions, e.g. PA and VT, and now SCOTUS acknowledges that right predated the Constitution by saying "c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment. Pp. 28–30."

Have a nice evening, :hi:

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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. Miller is not a good decision to be using
first off miller was only argued by one side...."in absence of evidence to the contrary...."

second just because the rationale of the second amendment was related to the militia doesnt limit it to the militia only. The right of the people is still the right of the people

scalia intertwines the miller decision in the Heller decision very nicely- by your post i can guess you never read the heller decision and just spouting off what was read in the NYT

"Fabricating a completely new self defense relationship to the second amendment out of whole cloth and ignoring legal precedent, diminishes our society, especially the rule of law. Scalia’s claim to be an originalist becomes clearer. He can see rights that never existed, their origins are in his rulings."
miller was never designed to set a precedent on whether it was an individual right or a collective right- all miller determined was that a sawed off shotgun was not standard military equipment (which it was- just the other side never showed up to argue that point).

you should actually read what you cite

"Tomorrow, next week, next month and next year there will be additional death and injuries because of this ruling."
they said that about CCW, they said that about the assault weapons ban expiration....it never came...it will never come because what your side doesnt realize is how narrow this decision is. Allowing ownership of handguns in the home under strict regulation isnt going to cause more gun violence. In fact ill put my money on the chance that nothing will change
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. Well
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Now if your assertion holds any water why would the founders not write:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the militia to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Ever read the Federalist Papers? If so and you still espouse this line of bull you really must have a problem with intellectual honesty.

Isn't US v. Miller the case in which Miller did not appear? Isn't this the case decided based solely on the argument of the US? I wonder why Miller lost his appeal??

This poorly reasoned HELLER ruling takes our nation another step closer to additional needless deaths and debilitating injuries.

Care to offer any stats or links to back this up? Any at all which doesn't lead to some anti-2nd web site?...I didn't think so.

Tomorrow, next week, next month and next year there will be additional death and injuries because of this ruling.

Likely the death or injuries will effect criminals entering the homes of their armed victims...such a shame.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
37. Miller has two problems, the first is he did NOT show up.
Edited on Sun Jun-29-08 01:50 AM by happyslug
The reason Miller did not appear is by the time of the Supreme Court Case he was dead, killed in shoot out with other criminals (Miller was NOT an upstanding citizen).

The Second problem was the nature of the Appeal. Miller had been arrested for having an illegal sawed off shotgun. At his arraignment the Trial Judge ruled the National Firearms Act violated the Second Amendment and given that situation even if the Prosecutors could PROVE everything they would still lose do to the Second Amendment. It is from that decision the Federal Government Appealed.

Notice, the Judge had to assume the Government would PROVE everything at trial. On Appeal that remained the rule of law on appeal, the Justices had to accept as true all of the facts alleged by the Government. Given this rule of law, The Justices was restricted as the what they could do. The Justices basically ruled that it was an issue of fact reserved to a Jury to decide if a Sawed off Shotgun was a "Militia" Weapon, NOT an issue of law up to the Judge to decide. The Court remanded the Case to the Trial Judge to hold a Trial where one of the issue would be was the weapon a "Militia" weapon (No trial was ever held, Miller was long dead and buried even before the US Supreme Court Decision).

As to Heller, I do NOT know which is worse, the Majority decision or the Dissent. I disagree with both. Both ignores the history of the American Militia during the French and Indian War (1754-1763) and the American Revolution (1775-1783). Pennsylvania was the only Colony prior to 1754 that did NOT have a Militia. When the French and Indian war broke out the Pennsylvania was on the front line, but the Quakers, who controlled the Colony, refused to from a Militia. Ben Franklin, then told the frontiersmen to from their own Associations to protect themselves. In the late 1750s after the Quakers lost control of Pennsylvania, the state formed it Militia based on these pre-existing Associations. This was the first problem the Second Amendment was designed to address, preservation of the ability to form their own militia if the state and Federal Government failed to do so.

The second problem came up during the Revolution itself, the need to ease supply. During the Revolution the US Militia used what ever they had, but the number one weapon was the .75 inch Brown Bess (or copies of it). When the French started to supply the US Army, the US Army standardized on the Weapon the French provided, the .69 inch weapon (This is the weapon mentioned in the 1792 Militia Act, through the term used is the number of lead bullets one can get from a pound of lead, NOT the actual caliber measurement).

When the Second was written, Congress did NOT want to interfere with with any issue of supply, thus the Militia Act of 1792 was written that people could form their own militia units IF THE STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FAILED TO FORM THEM. Now the act mention only Free White Males, but by law that was NOT the limit of who served in Militia units. For Example from the Middle Ages till the late 1800s, by traditional law, every group of 20 men had a washer woman attached to that Group. Such Washer Women are NOT mentioned in the Militia Act of 1792, for Congress saw no need to Mentioned them (and Congress only mentioned them in the 1880s when Congress Outlawed Washer Woman, a law still on the books for any appeal of that Statute would mean the Common law rule would come into play and every 20 men in the US Army would be entitled to a washer woman). The Group of 20 was generally called a "Platoon" (Modern Platoons are larger, but pre-WWI Platoons averaged 20 men). Each Platoon had one Sargent and one washer woman (Who tended to be married to each other).

I go into the Concept of Washer Woman to show the Militia Act was NOT intended to be how units were to be formed. That was left up to the States. The Militia Act was to direct how each unit was to be armed and to make Militia Units as uniform as possible within the US. Section 1 of the Act only mention three weapons, a "Hanger" (A Sword carried by any Company Commander), a musket and a rifle. Pistols are mentioned further down in the Act when the Act Addresses Calvary, and then only as to horse mounted Calvary. The Musket and Rifle were the two weapons used in Infantry Regiments. Musket were to be of the type used by the US Army at that time, the Rifles could be any caliber (There was NO standard US Army Rifle at the time and would not be any till 1803, the first Standard US Army Rifles would be used on the Lewis and Clark Expedition of 1803-1804).

Today the Infantry Regiment is almost forgotten. During WWII most regiments were broken up into three Independent Battalions (and then joined back together as a Regimental Combat Team). In 1964 these three Battalions were joined together into a Brigade. At the time of the Revolution Regiments were formed into Brigades, but with the growth of the number of troops in Infantry Companies, Battalions and Regiments starting with WWI, Brigades and Regiments came to be about the same size and thus the terms are often interchangeable today. Most of the growth of these units reflect the introduction of new weapons into the previous all rifle regiments of pre-WWI (These include Machine Guns, Mortars, Anti-tank weapons, Anti-Aircraft Weapons etc). What this means is these new weapons are weapons in a modern Infantry unit and as such Militia weapons protected by the Second Amendment.

Notice Pistols are NOT mentioned (Except for the describing of Calvary). Now the "hanger" was replaced by the officer Pistol by the Civil War (and then rarely used do to the increase number of snipers who looked for such weapons when they try to kill the other sides officers). Thus under the Militia Act of 1792 these two purposes are the only true Military propose of a Pistol. Under the concept that a Pistol is the modern Equivalent of the "Hanger" pistols are "Militia Weapons" but only as a symbol of command. The Calvary pistol was to be used when the Cavalryman could NOT use another weapon DO TO BEING ON HORSEBACK. The Modern Equivalent of this is a modern soldier who do to the weapon he is operating, can NOT carry a Rifle, but needs a weapon of self-defense do to the nature of his primary weapon (The Classic case is the Modern Machine Gunner who do to the Nature of the Machine Gun may need a weapon to protect himself if attacked from a directions the Machine gun is NOT pointed, another example is a Pilot whose primary duty is to fly a plane, but if shot down can only carry a pistol).

This is why the Majority did NOT rely on the Militia Act of 1792, for it clearly shows Pistols can be restricted do to limited military usability compared to Rifles. In fact under the above the ban on Assault Weapons is clearly unconstitutional for it bans a clearly military usable weapon (The modern Equivalent of the 1792 Musket) but you can ban handguns on the grounds that assault rifles are clearly more useful militarily. Instead the Majority went with an argument many liberals have argued for years when it comes to the Death Penalty, that if a CLEAR majority wants or oppose something that is the law. The vast Majority of American jurisdiction ban the execution of Children, so the Court ruled it was Cruel and Unusual Punishment to put people to death for crimes they committed when under 18, the same rationale is used by the Majority here, the vast majority of US Jurisdiction permit the use of Pistols, thus the use of Pistols are protected by the Second Amendment. The carly part is Scalia OPPOSED the ban on the Death Penalty for crimes committed when one is under 18, but then uses a similar "popular" position when it comes to the Pistols and the Second Amendment. As a whole a bad decision and rationale by the Majority.

As to the dissent, they are as bad. They cite Washington complaint about the "Useless Militia" but then ignored the context of that position (Militia is good for defensive action, harassment, denying the enemy needed supplies, and doing needed field work, but lousy at offensive action, which Washington wanted to do and his lieutenants quickly learn NOT to do against a superior Enemy). The Dissent then ignores the existing law (The modern version of the Militia Act of 1792) which calls all citizens members of the Militia (Organized Militia if a member of the National Guard, Unorganized is NOT a Member) and the Militia Act of 1792 (Not even to mentioned that the term "Free White Male" as used in the Militia Act of 1792, had mean ALL males no matter their race since the passage of the Civil War Amendments to the Constitution). The Dissent wants the Second to apply ONLY to the National Guard, so Ben Franklin and Pennsylvania's history of the Associations is ignored for it clearly show the term Militia meant MORE than whatever the State of Federal Government have in the National Guard. I have less problem with the Dissent, but they reliance on the National Guard being the Militia is clearly without historical background (as clearly showed by Scalia in his Opinion). In fact Scalia seems to ATTACK the Dissent more then he supports his own side in his Majority opinion (Do more to the weakness of Scalia expansion of the Second to include Pistols while permitting the Government to ban other weapons, weapons of clearly greater Military usability). The Dissent is wrong, but so is the Majority. The Second protects Military Usable Weapons of a type used in Infantry Battalions (and I would include light Artillery), but safe Storage of such weapons is still a requirement (Safe Storage to make sure it does not go "boom" NOT that is would NOT be stolen, thus the ammunition must be stored in a place where it can NOT go off accidentally, even while you keep the Cannon in the Front Drive way).

One last comment: Atomic Weapons sometime comes up in discussion of the Second Amendment. It is NOT relevant for two reasons. The First is while the Government can NOT ban a Militia Weapon, the Government has NO obligation to sell such weapons. Given that only the US Government presently makes Atomic Bombs, the US Government can ban itself from selling them to anyone else.

The Second argument is the stronger Argument. While the Second prohibits the Government from making a simple ban on atomic weapons, the Government can require that the Weapon be stored is such a way to prevent harm to others (and if the Government does NOT, people can sue the holder of such weapons for the harm such radiation did to them, a right the Government can NOT even stop if the weapon is one held by the US Government itself).

In the case of a Cannon, Tank or Plane, storage and safety is simple, with out ammo all a cannon or tank is, is a piece of steel (Planes tend to be Aluminum but that all a plane is without Fuel or weapons). Thus a Cannon, tank or plane can be stored anywhere, even in your front yard.

On the other hand ammunition must be stored in a way to make sure no one can get hurt. Modern Small arms Ammunition will go off in a hot fire, but the bullets that are thus "Fired" will rarely have enough power behind them to penetrate any box they are in let alone anything else (In Extreme fire this is NOT as true, but in most fires ammunition is NOT a problem). Cannon Shells are a different matter, they can knock down a house, thus a higher level of care can be required of them (And even more for the Fuses, which are even quicker to go off and do damage). Such ammunition must be stored safely and the Government can require reasonable storage of such ammunition even if the effect will be a ban on holding such ammunition. Notice the issue is NOT possession but Safety.

This rule comes even more into play if we look into the storage of Atomic Weapons. The Government can require that such weapons be stored so that the radiation from the Warhead being kept in storage does NOT hurt anyone else (and if you have the money for such storage you have the money to lobby congress for an exception to any ban on ownership, the lobby effort would be cheap compared to the construction for the building to contain the Radiation).

Thus my point, if someone wants an Atomic Bomb and has the money to build what is needed to store such a weapon, he has more than enough money to lobby Congress for a exception to any law banning ownership (unlike the protection for Cannon Ammunition, which would be cheaper then lobbying Congress). Thus my point, if the issue of Atomic Bombs come up, it is a moot point. If you have money to buy and store an Atomic Bomb, you have enough money to lobby congress for an exemption to any ban on such ownership. Thus Atomic Bombs are a straw man in any argument about the Second, if someone wants one (for what reason I do not know) he better have several million dollars to spend. If someone has that much money to waste on a Weapon of very limited military usability (It can destroy things, NOT take things or hold things) he will get it no matter what laws we pass. If he does NOT have that much money he will NOT get one.

A third argument would be the Military usability of Atomic Weapons, As I pointed out above, you can NOT hold something with an Atomic Bomb, you can NOT take something with an atomic bomb. An Atomic bomb is good for one thing, to destroy something. Given that the Militia's main role is to protect the Country an Atomic Bomb is of questionable value. Atomic bombs have had a questionable value since WWII, only two have been used, and those two was to destroy two cities NOT to take and hold those cities, nor to prevent them from falling into enemy hands.

Thus do to the fact the Government can require reasonable storage safety of any weapon even under the Second Amendment and such storage requirements for an atomic weapon is expensive (and the fact if not done the owner of the weapon can be sued for any harm such storage causes) no one will want an Atomic bomb (even if you run across someone who somehow justifies ownership of the weapon in question). Thus the Atomic Bomb is a straw man argument that can be ignored do the above.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. Same old crap...
This fertilizer is the same rhetoric gun owners have heard for the last 25 years, since the CCW movement began in earnest.

"There will be rivers of blood in the streets, and shootouts over parking places and fender benders."

Then there was the one about:

"Plastic guns will be used by terrorists. They will who sneak them through metal detectors and to hijack airplanes."

Needless to say, none of these have or will happen. It LIES like these are why gun owners have absolutely no respect for almost anything the advocates of gun control say.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
46. Welcome to DU...
Enjoy the fun.

The pro-gun group is ecstatic, the anti-gun group is very very upset.

Good points, by the way.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
58. Thank you..
Long time lurker who finally decided to join since the primaries were over.
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Welcome, also do you know
where to shop so I can celebrate the ruling by buying myself a Glock 7? I like ceramic!







I kid, I kid! I do want a G30SF and either a 32 or a 23 OD though.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Actually, I would much rather have a nice
Edited on Sun Jun-29-08 05:20 PM by MicaelS
Plastic / composite / ceramic gauss pistol. No muss, no fuss and no annoying loud noises. :wow: :rofl: :hide:
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Heeheehee, 2mm tungsten spikes at
what, 20,000 FPS? that would be incredible, show that bastard slow-and-heavy crowd what's up when the ballistic pressure wave incapacitates all attackers regardless of shot placement!


No really though, the "Glocks are made entirely from plastic" comments are too funny to me. Especially when I heard it from a Sigma owner... If only he knew the pedigree of his own pistol!
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. No, no, NO!
20K fps are you crazy? Do you know what kind of sonic crack that will make? No, a 50 cailber 500 grain bullet at 1K fps. No noise at all. Unless the solenoid on the pistol makes a click.

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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #65
71. An excellent one!
Well if you want to go slow and heavy, I'm right there with you, but why stop at .50? We are only using magnets and electricity to propel the projectile, so caliber laws are irrelevant! And why only 500 grains? I would use the longest bullet possible, get the best ballistic coefficient going, BMG likes ~700 grain, if a .223 likes 75, and a .50 likes 750, thats ten times the weight for a doubling in caliber, but we want better BC so the low velocity isn't an issue, lets use 16000 grain bullets going right under speed of sound, say 1050fps? It would be like the whisper calibers but on a far grander scale!
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. Heller did not change anything for me or 99% of US citizens
No rights were conferred or eliminated by this decision.

The rights we had before, we still have.

We don't have any rights we didn't already have.

I'm happy with the decision but it really isn't a big deal as far as I am concerned.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. IMO Heller was a "big deal" because it put lie to those who said the 2nd protected a collective
right and not an individual right to keep and bear arms.

Have a wonderful evening, :hi:
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xdoctor Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. First read, then think, then post.
You didn't take the time to actually read the ruling, did ya? Every word of the Second Amendment was very carefully considered.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. even if you dont agree with it
you cannot say that Scalia didnt make a compelling and reasonable arguement. It was well worded and backed up with evidence to support his conclusions

its one thing to disagree with it, its another to strip it of all credibility and respect- the decision was a well-thought out one

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. a well-chosen word
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-28-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. have you read the decision yet?
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. I have and the justification for the decision is bad,
What the Majority did was invent a right to own a Pistol out of a Amendment aimed at preserving the right to have military usable weapons, even if you are NOT a member of the Militia (And to preserve the Militia, even if the States and Federal Government decides NOT to form the Militia or any part of the Militia).

Under the Second Amendment people can form they own militia units, but the state and Federal Government can take them over at any time, furthermore that right to form your own militia units does NOT mean one can avoid service in the regular Militia Service formed by the State of the Federal Government. The right to form your own units is subject to the right of the State and Federal Government to form the Militia as each sees fit.

How the right to own a Military usable weapon so that you can join any pick up formed militia unit formed up when needed became the absolute right to own a pistol (of limited military usability) is amazing (Just read the Majority opinion). The dissent has their own agenda and I disagree with them as much as the Majority, but the Majority is the decision that is binding and why it should be attacked.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Some corrections.
Edited on Sun Jun-29-08 01:59 AM by gorfle
What the Majority did was invent a right to own a Pistol out of a Amendment aimed at preserving the right to have military usable weapons, even if you are NOT a member of the Militia (And to preserve the Militia, even if the States and Federal Government decides NOT to form the Militia or any part of the Militia).

Firstly, the Majority did not invent this line of reasoning, as I have said it myself for years.

Even if the amendment was solely aimed at militias, we must understand what role militias were expected to play. The fact of the matter is, militias were intended to eliminate or counter federal military power, so that a corrupt federal government could not use its military power to oppress the people. The militias, made up of The People, were part of a decentralized military system aimed at that specific goal.

Today, however (and in fact, since the 1903 Dick Act), the militias our founders knew no longer exist. How then, to preserve the ideal of the founders and preserve this counter to federal military power? It is certainly not the National Guard, for if anything it serves to augment federal military power. The only entity still able to fulfill the intended role is The People themselves.

As for the weapons appropriate to a militia, and consequently the people, any small arm appropriate for a standing army would be appropriate to The People. Since pistols are routinely part of this armament today, they are fully appropriate for The People. Admittedly, pistols are probably not going to be key weapons in repelling a federal military tyranny. But for personal self-defense, they are excellently suited. And if a man is empowered to resist oppression from his own government, why not also from his fellow man? A pistol is often the best weapon for this purpose.

Under the Second Amendment people can form they own militia units, but the state and Federal Government can take them over at any time, furthermore that right to form your own militia units does NOT mean one can avoid service in the regular Militia Service formed by the State of the Federal Government. The right to form your own units is subject to the right of the State and Federal Government to form the Militia as each sees fit.

And the way this has been seen fit was laid down by the Dick Act in 1903. It provides for the Unorganized Militia - all able-bodied men aged 17-45 not otherwise in the Organized Militia.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. My attack was extending the Second to Cover Pistols, but in a way that may NOT cover Assault Rifles.
Edited on Sun Jun-29-08 03:08 AM by happyslug
I repeat what I wrote in #37 above:

As to Heller, I do NOT know which is worse, the Majority decision or the Dissent. I disagree with both. Both ignores the history of the American Militia during the French and Indian War (1754-1763) and the American Revolution (1775-1783). Pennsylvania was the only Colony prior to 1754 that did NOT have a Militia. When the French and Indian war broke out the Pennsylvania was on the front line, but the Quakers, who controlled the Colony, refused to from a Militia. Ben Franklin, then told the frontiersmen to form their own Associations to protect themselves. In the late 1750s after the Quakers lost control of Pennsylvania, the state formed it Militia based on these pre-existing Associations. This was the first problem the Second Amendment was designed to address, preservation of the ability to form their own militia if the state and Federal Government failed to do so.

The second problem came up during the Revolution itself, the need to ease supply. During the Revolution the US Militia used what ever they had, but the number one weapon was the .75 inch Brown Bess (or copies of it). When the French started to supply the US Army, the US Army standardized on the Weapon the French provided, the .69 inch weapon (This is the weapon mentioned in the 1792 Militia Act, through the term used is the number of lead bullets one can get from a pound of lead, NOT the actual caliber measurement).

When the Second was written, Congress did NOT want to interfere with with any issue of supply, thus the Militia Act of 1792 was written that people could form their own militia units IF THE STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FAILED TO FORM THEM. Now the act mention only Free White Males, but by law that was NOT the limit of who served in Militia units. For Example from the Middle Ages till the late 1800s, by traditional law, every group of 20 men had a washer woman attached to that Group. Such Washer Women are NOT mentioned in the Militia Act of 1792, for Congress saw no need to Mentioned them (and Congress only mentioned them in the 1880s when Congress Outlawed Washer Woman, a law still on the books for any appeal of that Statute would mean the Common law rule would come into play and every 20 men in the US Army would be entitled to a washer woman). The Group of 20 was generally called a "Platoon" (Modern Platoons are larger, but pre-WWI Platoons averaged 20 men). Each Platoon had one Sargent and one washer woman (Who tended to be married to each other).

I go into the Concept of Washer Woman to show the Militia Act was NOT intended to be how units were to be formed. That was left up to the States. The Militia Act was to direct how each unit was to be armed and to make Militia Units as uniform as possible within the US. Section 1 of the Act only mention three weapons, a "Hanger" (A Sword carried by any Company Commander), a musket and a rifle. Pistols are mentioned further down in the Act when the Act Addresses Calvary, and then only as to horse mounted Calvary. The Musket and Rifle were the two weapons used in Infantry Regiments. Musket were to be of the type used by the US Army at that time, the Rifles could be any caliber (There was NO standard US Army Rifle at the time and would not be any till 1803, the first Standard US Army Rifles would be used on the Lewis and Clark Expedition of 1803-1804).

Today the Infantry Regiment is almost forgotten. During WWII most regiments were broken up into three Independent Battalions (and then joined back together as a Regimental Combat Team). In 1964 these three Battalions were joined together into a Brigade. At the time of the Revolution Regiments were formed into Brigades, but with the growth of the number of troops in Infantry Companies, Battalions and Regiments starting with WWI, Brigades and Regiments came to be about the same size and thus the terms are often interchangeable today. Most of the growth of these units reflect the introduction of new weapons into the previous all rifle regiments of pre-WWI (These include Machine Guns, Mortars, Anti-tank weapons, Anti-Aircraft Weapons etc). What this means is these new weapons are weapons in a modern Infantry unit and as such Militia weapons protected by the Second Amendment.

Notice Pistols are NOT mentioned (Except for the describing of Calvary). Now the "hanger" was replaced by the officer Pistol by the Civil War (and then rarely used do to the increase number of snipers who looked for such weapons when they try to kill the other sides officers). Thus under the Militia Act of 1792 these two purposes are the only true Military propose of a Pistol. Under the concept that a Pistol is the modern Equivalent of the "Hanger" pistols are "Militia Weapons" but only as a symbol of command. The Calvary pistol was to be used when the Cavalryman could NOT use another weapon DO TO BEING ON HORSEBACK. The Modern Equivalent of this is a modern soldier who do to the weapon he is operating, can NOT carry a Rifle, but needs a weapon of self-defense do to the nature of his primary weapon (The Classic case is the Modern Machine Gunner who do to the Nature of the Machine Gun may need a weapon to protect himself if attacked from a directions the Machine gun is NOT pointed, another example is a Pilot whose primary duty is to fly a plane, but if shot down can only carry a pistol).

This is why the Majority did NOT rely on the Militia Act of 1792, for it clearly shows Pistols can be restricted do to limited military usability compared to Rifles. In fact under the above the ban on Assault Weapons is clearly unconstitutional for it bans a clearly military usable weapon (The modern Equivalent of the 1792 Musket) but you can ban handguns on the grounds that assault rifles are clearly more useful militarily. Instead the Majority went with an argument many liberals have argued for years when it comes to the Death Penalty, that if a CLEAR majority wants or oppose something that is the law. The vast Majority of American jurisdiction ban the execution of Children, so the Court ruled it was Cruel and Unusual Punishment to put people to death for crimes they committed when under 18, the same rationale is used by the Majority here, the vast majority of US Jurisdiction permit the use of Pistols, thus the use of Pistols are protected by the Second Amendment. The carly part is Scalia OPPOSED the ban on the Death Penalty for crimes committed when one is under 18, but then uses a similar "popular" position when it comes to the Pistols and the Second Amendment. As a whole a bad decision and rationale by the Majority.

As to the dissent, they are as bad. They cite Washington complaint about the "Useless Militia" but then ignored the context of that position (Militia is good for defensive action, harassment, denying the enemy needed supplies, and doing needed field work, but lousy at offensive action, which Washington wanted to do and his lieutenants quickly learn NOT to do against a superior Enemy). The Dissent then ignores the existing law (The modern version of the Militia Act of 1792) which calls all citizens members of the Militia (Organized Militia if a member of the National Guard, Unorganized is NOT a Member) and the Militia Act of 1792 (Not even to mentioned that the term "Free White Male" as used in the Militia Act of 1792, had mean ALL males no matter their race since the passage of the Civil War Amendments to the Constitution). The Dissent wants the Second to apply ONLY to the National Guard, so Ben Franklin and Pennsylvania's history of the Associations is ignored for it clearly show the term Militia meant MORE than whatever the State of Federal Government have in the National Guard. I have less problem with the Dissent, but they reliance on the National Guard being the Militia is clearly without historical background (as clearly showed by Scalia in his Opinion). In fact Scalia seems to ATTACK the Dissent more then he supports his own side in his Majority opinion (Do more to the weakness of Scalia expansion of the Second to include Pistols while permitting the Government to ban other weapons, weapons of clearly greater Military usability). The Dissent is wrong, but so is the Majority. The Second protects Military Usable Weapons of a type used in Infantry Battalions (and I would include light Artillery), but safe Storage of such weapons is still a requirement (Safe Storage to make sure it does not go "boom" NOT that is would NOT be stolen, thus the ammunition must be stored in a place where it can NOT go off accidentally, even while you keep the Cannon in the Front Drive way).
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. An excellent post
An excellent post I am too tired tonight to reply.
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Mercracer Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Please Read the Document
Arms in common use at the time is what is applicable. Handguns are clearly in common use and are commonly to be found in the homes of reasonable rational responsible adults across our great nation. Adult men are automatically thought to be part of the militia even if they are not officially part of any organized militia. Read the document and then read your history...
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. "Arms in Common Use" is the line used by the Majority
But many of the same Justices that made up the Majority, took the opposite position when it came to executing the Mentally Handicap or person who committed crime before they were 18. In the Death Penalty cases, Scalia and his fellow Justices opposed the use of what the vast majority of Jurisdiction have done, instead tried to upheld such execution for they were permitted under the Common Law.

As I have said before (and said above) the purpose of the second was to preserve the Militia as something that could be used to offset the power of the regular Army. Pistols have very little military usability. In fact the argument that the Second covers only "Weapons in Common Use" can be viewed as supporting the ban on Assault Weapons (Which have clear military usability) while permitting people to own pistols (Which have limited military usability).

I do NOT like this decision, if they had relied more on Ben Franklin's formation of "Associations" during the French and Indian wars I would have been happier. Franklin and Pennsylvania's Associations are NOT even mentioned in the Opinion. Pennsylvania alone among the Colonies had NOT formed its Militia, and when the Quakers who controlled Pennsylvania Refused to do so even as Indians were attacking white settlers along the Frontier, Ben Franklin told the Frontiersmen to form their own Militia types units which Franklin called "Associations". After the Quakers lost control of Pennsylvania in the late 1750s these associations were the basis of Pennsylvania's Militia used from the time till after the American Revolution. Almost no pistols were used by these units (Pistols had and continue to have very limited Military usability). Muskets and Riflers were the weapons of these Associations AND the Militia (And the Assault Rifle is the modern Equivalent NOT the pistol).

The Reason the Majority did NOT use Ben Franklin and his Association is they wanted to extend the Second to Pistols, but NOT to Assault Rifles for such "weapons are NOT in common use today". I can see some of the same majority voting against extending the Second to Assault Rifles based on what Scalia wrote, a position I oppose and why I believe this is a badly written decision.

Today, if I was facing some sort of armed conflict and all I could raise was local militia, I would prefer people with spades to dig entrenchments over people with pistols. A person with a Pistol has limited range and the typical combat range of 75 yards is still out of range of someone with a pistol. That is the best argument against the Pistol covered by the Second Amendment, a pistols limited military usability. The term "Arms in Common Use" has to be directed at weapon capable of military usability, and the Spade is a superior weapon in that regard for modern Combat requires troops to dig in as much as possible and as soon as possible. Thus I can NOT extend the Second to cover Pistols, the weapon has to have some claim to military usability over and above that of a spade to dig entrenchments.
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. However, the frequently encountered range of
indoors is incredibly well suited for pistol use, as is the use by resistance fighters of ambushing lone soldiers or pairs of soldiers to capture their arms.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. That is why SWAT teams only carry pistols? (Sarcasm alert)
Swat Teams rely on Rifles and Shotguns more than Pistols.

While Pistols are usable inside buildings, even inside buildings rifles or shotguns are better. Rifles and shotguns interact with the body three ways (the stock in the shoulder and both hands on the Weapon). Pistols only have two points at best. In areas where pistols can be used, a knife or bayonet can be used (and a spade used as a weapon can also be used).

My point is Pistols have limited usability even in a home. Rifles and Shotguns retain their superiority, knives, bayonets and even spades are almost as good.

I am NOT saying knives, bayonets and Spades are superior to pistols in such situations, but the superiority is minor at best. The Superiority of Rifles and shotguns is less then in more open areas (like the street outside, or the back yard) but still exists. The superiority of rifles and shotguns over pistols is even greater then pistols over Knives, Bayonets and Spades. Thus I can live with a ban on pistols, for such a ban will have minimum affect if the Militia is ever needed.
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. You are missing the selling point of pistols
What happens when you are separated from your long arms? how about if you are tackled and your subgun or carbine skitters away from you? or if you are in the midst of a reload when someone rounds the corner? and how many places would you feel socailly acceptable carrying a rifle? The pistol is excellent because it can be on your body at all times, making the wearer more fully prepared. How many rifles can be holstered in your vest or on your thigh? The pistol plays a very crucial role, it is the weapon you least want to need, but can almost always have with you.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. In most combat situation you are acting as a member of a team
AS to re-loading, all MILITARY rifles are quicker to re-load then to pull another weapon. As a member of a team, members of the team do NOT re-load all at the same time (And this you have to rely on your team members in such situation, if you have no one why are you even thinking of doing anything?). Rifles are always around, often as easy, if easier to get into action then a pistol.

Pistols are NOT always on your body, but even if we assume it is, how much easier is it to pull a pistol out of a holster then to put a rifle into your shoulder? The answer is simple the Rifle is quicker. The pistols come into its own when your arms are tied up with other duties. Even then the rifle can be put into a position that it can be grabbed within seconds (Combat soldiers do this all the time while digging entrenchments). The most common use of pistols is vehicle operators in the Military. Truck drivers are NEVER given rifles, for if the truck gets to close to the combat area the driver and anyone else in the Truck better bail out before the truck is hit with enemy rifle fire. Armor Vehicles do enter combat areas, but even a driver of such a vehicle is better off with a rifle if he has to abandoned the Vehicle. If the operator stays in the Vehicles a pistol can come into its own (Even the Russian provided Pistols to their Tank operators), but only if the crew stays in the armor Vehicles, once outside the rifle comes into its own and can be set in such a way that the crew automatically picks it up as their exit (The Israeli sling keeps such weapons on his back and side in such situation, making the rifle even easier to put into action then a pistol).

My point is that combat units can do quite well without pistols, while rifles are required for the military unit to be effective. Thus section 1 of the militia Act of 1792 did NOT mention pistols when it set the arms requirements of most of the militia (The Act did mention pistols for the Calvary, which like modern armor Vehicle Operators, have restrictions as to be able to use a rifle when operating the horse, for the Calvary, the tank for armor or the Armored Personnel Carrier (APC) for the Infantry (I include Mechanized Infantry Combat Vehicles, MICV, when I used the term APC).

Pistols have limited Combat capability, given the limited effective range of Pistols. Notice I use the term "Effective Range" not maximum range. Most pistols effective range is less then 10 feet. Modern Assault Rifles have effective range of 300-400 YARDS (or Meters). People do train to use pistols at 25 yard ranges, but that is the maximum range pistols are effective (The Average combat injury is at 75 yards, with something like 90% of all injuries between 50 and 200 yards). Sub-Machine guns of WWII fame had a maximum effective range of about 100 yards, and while that is within the range of over 50% of all injuries done by small arms fire, it leaves almost 50% of the injuries beyond sub-machine guns range. Sub-Machine guns use pistol ammunition, thus their short range, but in a rifle type stock designed to operate in full automatic mode. The reasons Assault Rifles replaced Sub-machine guns after WWII as do to this lack of range. Pistols have an even shorter range and even less combat effectiveness and as such violate what I have called the Second Purpose of the Second, that is NOT to interfere with the re-supply system for ammunition the Militia will use up (Sometime in Combat, but other times in training). BOTH the ability to be armed and the ability for the State or Federal Government to re-supply the Militia was WHY the Second is worded the way it is. The Second was NOT to be used to make the re-supply situation worse then it had to be. Minimize the number of weapons to the ones absolutely needed is a requirement of any supply system, pistols add a supply problem we do NOT really need, and as such, in my opinion, could be banned under the second as long as other more usable military usable weapons were available (i.e. Assault Rifles).
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. That is true
For the most part, combat entails teams. However, in irregular combat all bets are off. And why then is the military issuing more pistols than ever before in these current conflicts? The Army just bought another 25,403 Beretta M9 pistols, and they are not just being used as status symbols for officers. The pistol does and has played a small but important role in conflicts, and we are starting to train more effectively with our pistols than ever before. Pistols in modern warfare are useful, generally they just add weight to a soldier's load but every so often they show their worth.

And ten feet? Please, slug you need to get out to a range soon and take a good handgunning class, using my Glock 27 (subcompact .40, generally recognized as the hardest-recoiling model in the lineup, since the grip is only long enough for two fingers and .40 is quite the little firebrand) at 22-23 yards I nailed a soda bottle, it landed on top of the berm a few feet back, end facing me, and my next shot cleared it right off. It was fast, too. If a 3.25" barreled two fingered .40 is capable of that sort of rapid accuracy than I expect more from a fullsize service pistol like the Beretta with it's 4.9" barrel.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #43
69. My point is that a better test would be is military usability.
They is NO constitutional justification for "Common Use" as a test for the Second. Miller can be viewed as requiring the weapon being Military usable to come under the Second. Reading the Militia Act of 1792 (Written by the first Congress thus given great weight in deciding what the ten Amendments and the rest of the Constitution meant to the person who wrote the Constitution).

Pistols have limited military usable compared to Rifles and Shotguns. Pistols are NOT mentioned in Section 1 of the Militia Act of 1792 (It is mentioned in Section 4, for Calvary but for the Calvary use, where the only other weapons one could use was the sword and Lance).

Further one of the Concerns at the time at the time of the Passage of the Second, was the need to simplify the supply situation when the militia is called into service. Again by limiting the weapons to Rifles and Shotguns, you minimized the number of types of ammunition needed. This was why the Militia Act clearly state the weapon type, right down to the weapon's caliber. Pistols just add to many different calibers into the Militia. "Common Use" does not address this issue, but Military usability does.
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russ1943 Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-30-08 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
70. choice of word..........
Thanks.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
38. Proper reading of the amendment is crucial.
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state" means something. But it does NOT mean what you think, or claim it does.

It means, in modern language "because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state".


It is NOT a conditional statement, or a qualifier.

Your "interpretation" is consistant with that of those that would like to eliminate the right, but it is most certainly NOT accurate.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
40. On militias.
First of all, thankfully, we really don't need to reply to such remarks as yours anymore, because the SCOTUS has now made it a matter of law that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right without regard to membership in any organization, such as a militia.

But for the sake of argument, I will address what you said as I have done before the Heller case was affirmed.

The declaration (THE 2ND AMENDMENT) and guarantee (PROTECTION IT PROVIDES) were written for the obvious purpose (NOT JUST A PURPOSE BUT THE OBVIOUS PURPOSE) of assuring the continuation (INSURE IT’S EXISTENCE) and render possible the effectiveness (ASSURE IT’S SUCCESS) of such forces (THE MILITIA).

Even if the second amendment applied only to militias, what was the purpose of militias in the days of the founders? This is easily discovered by reading contemporary documents such as the federalist papers, and writings of anti-federalists. Many of these are cited in the recent Heller decision.

Quite simply, our founders did not trust the government they were creating. They feared that, despite their best efforts and building in checks and balances, the federal government might grow too powerful, become corrupted, and attempt to oppress the people. In order to insure that the federal government had no military power with with to enforce a tyranny, they decided to create a decentralized military system, whereby the military power would lie in the hands of the State Militias. These militias were to be made up of men from the States, led by officers from those States. The intent of these militias was to either eliminate or at least counterbalance federal military power.

In 1903, with the passage of the Dick Act, the State Militias were federalized, creating the National Guard. From this point on, the National Guard ceased to be a counter to federal military power and instead acted as an adjunct to it - essentially reserve troops. Instead of countering federal military power, the National Guard now enhances federal military power. This is contrary to the intent of the founders and the intent of the second amendment.

So even if there are no militias left today as our founders envisioned and intended, in order to preserve their ideal the right to keep and bear arms, so as to counter the threat of federal tyranny, must revert back to The People spoken of in the second amendment.

However, if you must see militias in order to bear arms, you might note that the Dick Act not only provided for the Organized Militia - the National Guard - but also provided for the Unorganized Militia - all able-bodied men aged 17-45 not in the Organized Militia. So in fact, all able-bodied men aged 17-45 not in the military are, in fact, in the Unorganized Militia and so even by a "only militia" requirement still possess the right to keep and bear arms under the second amendment.

The Supreme Court, however, understood and spoke to the underlying intent of the founders, and understood that the intent was for The People to resist oppression. Militia or no militia, this was their intent, their ideal.

From the decision:

"The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation
of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically
capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists
feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in
order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing
army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress
power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear
arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved."


Emphasis mine. The Supreme Court speaks to the ideal of the citizen's militia, which is to empower the people with arms so that the Federal Government could not use force of arms to rule through oppression. This is the ideal. To honor this ideal, whether there are militias as our founders envisioned or not, the right to keep and bear arms must remain with the people so as to counter Federal tyranny should it arise.

In any case, the logic of the Supreme Court was simply that the prefatory clause, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." was intended by the founders merely to provide an explanation for why the right of the people to keep and bear arms was not to be infringed. It was not intended to provide the sole explanation for the right.

This poorly reasoned HELLER ruling takes our nation another step closer to additional needless deaths and debilitating injuries.

You might find it interesting that in every single state where concealed carry has been made law the crime rate has gown down. In every single state. Now I'm not going to argue cause and effect relationships, but it seems fairly certain that arming the law abiding does not lead to "blood in the streets" as the naysayers often predict.

Fabricating a completely new self defense relationship to the second amendment out of whole cloth and ignoring legal precedent, diminishes our society, especially the rule of law.

Firstly, you may be interested in knowing that concealed carry weapon permit holders have been demonstrated to be many times, sometimes hundreds of times less likely to be involved in crime (any crime, not just firearm crime) than non-permit holders. If there is anyone more respectful of the rule of law, it is CCW permit holders. Even firearm owners in general, of which there are some 40 to 80 million, are hardly ever involved in firearm crime. By my estimates, there are approximately 800,000 firearm crimes committed every year, including some 10,000 homicides. This means that over 98% of firearm owners are not involved in firearm crimes each year.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea of "fabricating" a self-defense relationship. If the people are empowered to protect themselves from the oppression of the government, why not also from the oppression of their fellow man?

Thirdly, many contemporary State constitutions of the era of The Constitution specifically speak to self-defense. From the Heller decision:

"That of the nine state
constitutional protections for the right to bear arms enacted
immediately after 1789 at least seven unequivocally
protected an individual citizen’s right to self-defense is
strong evidence that that is how the founding generation
conceived of the right. And with one possible exception
that we discuss in Part II–D–2, 19th-century courts and
commentators interpreted these state constitutional provisions
to protect an individual right to use arms for selfdefense."

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
53. It's a shame you have to keep repeating facts as you did in #40. Nine current constitutions forbid
their state legislatures from enacting laws that infringe upon inalienable rights such as RKBA.

I doubt that their state supreme courts or the citizens of that state would allow their legislatures to approve an amendment to the Constitution to repeal the Second Amendment.

Kentucky
Section 26, General powers subordinate to Bill of Rights -- Laws contrary thereto are void.

To guard against transgression of the high powers which we have delegated, We Declare that every thing in this Bill of Rights is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate; and all laws contrary thereto, or contrary to this Constitution, shall be void.


Louisiana Constitution
§1. Origin and Purpose of Government

Section 1. All government, of right, originates with the people, is founded on their will alone, and is instituted to protect the rights of the individual and for the good of the whole. Its only legitimate ends are to secure justice for all, preserve peace, protect the rights, and promote the happiness and general welfare of the people. The rights enumerated in this Article are inalienable by the state and shall be preserved inviolate by the state.


Michigan Constitution
Acts void.

21. All acts of the legislature contrary to this or any other article of this Constitution, shall be void.


North Dakota Constitution
Section 20. To guard against transgressions of the high powers which we have delegated, we declare that everything in this article is excepted out of the general powers of government and shall forever remain inviolate.


Ohio Constitution
§ 1.20 Powers reserved to the people (1851)

This enumeration of rights shall not be construed to impair or deny others retained by the people; and all powers, not herein delegated, remain with the people.


Pennsylvania Constitution
Section 25.
To guard against the transgressions of the high powers which we have delegated, we declare that everything in this article is excepted out of the general powers of government and shall forever remain inviolate.


Texas Constitution

Section 29 - PROVISIONS OF BILL OF RIGHTS EXCEPTED FROM POWERS OF GOVERNMENT; TO FOREVER REMAIN INVIOLATE

To guard against transgressions of the high powers herein delegated, we declare that everything in this "Bill of Rights" is excepted out of the general powers of government, and shall forever remain inviolate, and all laws contrary thereto, or to the following provisions, shall be void.


If the smallest states AK, ND, SD, WY, VT, DE, and MT are staunch supporters of inalienable rights, their votes combined with AL, AR, KY, LA, MI, ND, OH, PA, and TX that have constitutional barriers to repealing protection of inalienable rights would effectively prevent any change to the Constitution that would remove federal government protection of inalienable rights.
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MullenBank Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
54. It's now settled law...
and am I ever happy. Shared the news with my nursing director and she and I are gonna take a CC class with the local CoP. He is pretty cool for a small town cop in ground zero bible belt. he encourages women and women of color to be properly armed/trained. Pretty fly for a wite guy.

Anyway did y'all notice to reference to Cruikshank in the majority opinion-- that the right to defend is not granted by the C but that it preexists it. That it would exist even if there were no C. Doesn't that make sense to y'all. Why do I need a piece of paper to grant me something I already own by virtue of being human.

It's too nice a day to spend inside. Gonna go tow the ski to the IBX, gas up and get loud and wet.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Thanks for reminding readers that RKBA is a natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right as
stated in state constitutions beginning with PA (1776) and VT (1777)

SCOTUS said in Heller:
c. Meaning of the Operative Clause. Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation. This meaning is strongly confirmed by the historical background of the Second Amendment. We look to this because it has always been widely understood that the Second Amendment, like the First and Fourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right. The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it “shall not be infringed.” As we said in United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876), “{t}his is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed . . . .”

We the People are triumphant, :patriot:
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
56. sorry but I disagree.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764 -- Thomas Jefferson

The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -- The Federalist, No. 46 - James Madison

"rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." -- Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775 - Thomas Paine

"What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . . Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House of Representatives, August 17, 1789 - Elbridge Gerry

"That the people have a Right to mass and to bear arms; that a well regulated militia composed of the Body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper natural and safe defense of a free State..." - George Mason

"Are we at last brought to such an humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms under our own possesion and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" - Patrick Henry

"Gaurd with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people!" - Patrick Henry

"While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny." - Rev. Nicholas Collin, Fayetteville Gazette (N.C.), October 12, 1789

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson, in letter to William S. Smith, 1787 - M. R.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-29-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
60. A new day, a new load of crap from the anti-gun crowd

Fabricating a completely new self defense relationship to the second amendment out of whole cloth and ignoring legal precedent, diminishes our society, especially the rule of law. Scalia’s claim to be an originalist becomes clearer. He can see rights that never existed, their origins are in his rulings.


New? Fabricated? Never existed?

That would be "new"s to framers such as Roger Sherman and James Wilson,
or to anyone living today that bothered to read. Please read Bliss v. Commonwealth and Nunn v. State, they are particularly on point.

http://www.guncite.com/court/state/

Now of course the grabbers might argue that the right to keep and bear arms in the Second Amendment is a completely different animal than the the right keep and bear arms, (or the right to bear arms) in the various state constitutions. However the state court judges did not see it that way, so one can hardly say that the Heller decision created a new right or was in any way a novel interpretation.



Precedent?

Which Supreme Court precedent denied an individual right to keep handguns or other functional firearms in one's home?









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