make gun companies cure society's ills

[Tejas]

How gun makers can help us
Make firearms manufacturers figure out how to reduce the 12,000 shooting deaths each year.
By Jeffrey Fagan and Stephen D. Sugarman
June 29, 2008

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-sugarman29-2008jun29,0,1307373.story

Under our plan, Congress might require gun makers in the aggregate to reduce gun homicides from 12,000 to, say, 7,000 in 10 years, with appropriate interim targets along the way. Individual firms would each have their own targets to meet, based on the extent their guns are currently used in homicides. Or Congress might simply leave it to neutral experts to determine just how much of a numerical reduction should be required -- and how quickly. Either way, the required decline would be substantial.

How would gun companies go about reducing gun deaths? The main thing to emphasize is that this approach relies on the nimbleness, innovation and experimentation that come from private competition -- rather than on the heavy-handed power of governmental regulation. Gun makers might decide to add trigger locks to their guns, or to work only with dealers who meet certain standards of responsibility. They might withdraw their semiautomatic weapons from the consumer market, or even work hand in hand with local officials to fight gangs and increase youth employment opportunities. Surely they will think up new strategies once they have a legal obligation and financial incentive to take responsibility for the harm their products cause.

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Hard to believe this was actually written by a pair of professors. It reminds me of the cartoon where Calvin and Hobbes go through the motions of drawing up an epic battle plan with chalk on the sidewalk.

They PAY these people?

[tburnsten]

1. Ungodly stupid piece of writing

But at least they didn't include suicides in their figures. And none of that is in any way a manufacturer's responsibility, nor should it be. Why don't we just mandate that GM and Toyota now have a responsibility to reduce fatalities from drunk drivers and other vehicular homicides by 50%? Makes about as much sense. The manufacturer being held responsible for intentional acts by generally illicit users and police involved shootings? wonderful, why don't we make them bake cakes and make dioramas for everyone who is wounded with a firearm while we are at it?

These two have been crunching numbers for far too long it seems, maybe they should get out and get a real job.

Is steven sugarman any relation to that notorious hypocrite josh sugarman, head of the VPC isn't it, and one of two or three FFLs open for business in D.C.? What a dick.

[Retired AF Dem]

2. I have bought eight new guns in the past 18 months

All of them came with trigger locks. I threw six of them away and kept two to use as padlocks on the gates of my fence. At least those two locks serve a purpose.

[tburnsten]

3. Exactly. Give me a trigger lock/cable lock,

I will use it for something entirely different, since I can't think of a single realistic application for a cable lock or trigger lock. If it's out then it's loaded and in carry circulation, can't exactly have an idiotic trigger lock or cable threaded through it there, would print too much, and if it's locked up then what exactly is the use of the lock again? So I could authorize someone to get into my safe but not authorize them to use specific pistols? I wouldn't let anyone into my collection unsupervised anyway. Why would anyone want to store their pistol with the action locked open? why not leave it at rest?


More silly ideas from silly people who need to actually go check out the objects they are pontificating on.

[Hangingon]

4. This is great idea.

Gun companies have to figure out ways to cut gun crime. Car companies have to figure out ways to cuurb auto related deaths. Pesticide companies have to reduce poision deaths by a government set percentage. The list could go on and on. We could drastically reduce police forces and the size of government.

[virginia mountainman]

5. What a massive load of SHIT...

Lets change a few words, and see how silly it reads....



Under our plan, Congress might require auto makers in the aggregate to reduce automotive deaths from over 42,000 to, say, 30,000 in 10 years, with appropriate interim targets along the way. Individual firms would each have their own targets to meet, based on the extent their automobiles are currently used in homicides. Or Congress might simply leave it to neutral experts to determine just how much of a numerical reduction should be required -- and how quickly. Either way, the required decline would be substantial.

How would auto companies go about reducing car deaths? The main thing to emphasize is that this approach relies on the nimbleness, innovation and experimentation that come from private competition -- rather than on the heavy-handed power of governmental regulation. auto makers might decide to add ignition inter locks to their cars, or to work only with dealers who meet certain standards of responsibility. They might withdraw their sports cars from the consumer market, or even work hand in hand with local officials to fight night clubs and increase youth employment opportunities. Surely they will think up new strategies once they have a legal obligation and financial incentive to take responsibility for the harm their products cause.

[Tunkamerica]

6. How would auto companies go about reducing car deaths?

are you serious? air bags? seat-belts? anti-lock breaks. Gas tanks that don't explode when struck.

[bossy22]

7. gun companies already implement such saftey devices in their products

almost any new gun bought comes with a trigger lock- most new handguns have saftey features on them that allow the shooter to tell when there is a round in the chamber and have safties that prevent the gun from firing unless it is firmly gripped

[tburnsten]

11. Well, most modern handguns incorporate

a drop-safety, which is a mechanism to prevent the firing pin from impacting the primer of the chambered cartridge unless the trigger is at or near its "break", some, like Glock, incorporate a separate but nearly identical in function firing pin safety, and most except some double action only models will also have either a manual safety or a safety built into the trigger that prevents it from moving unless a finger or similiar object is pulling the trigger, reducing the risk of snagging the trigger on an object and firing it. The Glock, Springfield XD, and S&W M&P series all have this feature. Some, notably the XD and 1911 pistols (too many different manufacturers of 1911s to pick out a make), also have a grip safety, which is a device built into the rear of the grip, and prevents the firearm from being fired unless it is held in by a proper grip.

[Indy Lurker]

9. your off the mark a little bit

The issue is an intentional misuse of a legal product.



This would be more like requiring paint manufactures to reduce gang graffiti, or pry bar manufacturers to reduce burglary.

Back to the cars, it would be like requiring auto manufactures to reduce high speed chases.

[krispos42]

8. Ah, I see this has already been posted

I was just reading this and going :wtf:

Make it like No Child Left Behind? :rofl:


And I keep thinking that our homicide rate is down 40% in the past 15 years. Isn't THAT a hell of an improvement?

Finally, once again, the assumption is that if gun homicides go down, non-gun homicides won't go up. Which is false.

I'm just not getting it at all. While gun makers not selling to the "questionable" shops has some merit, it doesn't have a lot of merit. First off, gun makers often don't sell to individual shops. They sell in bulk to distributors, who then have their own clients. Hershey doesn't sell their stuff right to a gas station, for example, they sell it to a food wholesaler, who buys lot of stuff from lots of different producers then breaks it down into lots for their individual stores.

For most gun stores (chains like Cabela's, Gander Mountain, or Wal-Mart maybe be different), they put in an order like:

• 15 Glock Model 19 pistols
  
• 12 Savage Model 110 rifles
  
• 15 Remington 870 shotguns
  
• 25 Ruger Redhawk revolvers
  
• 10 DPMS AR-15 rifles
  
• 10 Springfield Armory Model 1911 pistols

and then the wholesaler will put together their order from their warehouse and ship it to the gun store.


If a dealer is known for having a lot of their sold guns used in crimes, it should be vigorously investigated by the ATF. It might not necessarily be their fault. For example, an urban liquor store might have an disproportionatly large part of it's sales being traced to drunk-driving accidents as simply part of the demographics that buy the alcohol. But, dammit, it should be investigated, if need be with undercover agents.

What is to be done? The conventional regulatory approaches seem to be failing. A more recent strategy, in which victims or municipalities bring lawsuits against gun manufacturers or retailers, seems legally and politically unpromising since the 2005 passage of the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, which shields gun manufacturers from civil liability.

Gun makers have civil liability for a truly defective product. If your gun blows up in your hand because it was made wrong, you can sue them for lots and lots of money, and you'll probably win. But sueing them because they sold a batch of guns to a wholesaler, who resold them to a retailer, to sold them to a federally-checked and passed citizen? Nah, not realistic or fair. Too many degrees removed.



Even if, tomorrow, no new guns were sold in the United States to anybody, the gun-related homicide rate would not drop to 7,000 in ten years assuming, of course, that nothing else changed. It probably would not drop at all. And what would the total homicide rate do?

[SteveM]

12. I can see it: Glock purchasing mortality credits from Remington...(nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

10. I have an 8 year old Taurus

that has an integral locking mechanism. The lock itself isn't terribly complex, but it would keep curious hands at bay for a little while.

But I keep it in a safe anyway, so I see no point locking it.