How Gun Control Lost

[TPaine7]

Steve Chapman gives an excellent summary of gun control's problems:

His three main points:

-- Gun control didn't work.

...

-- Laws allowing concealed weapons proliferated -- with no ill effects.

...

-- The Second Amendment got a second look.

I love how he ends his it:

"It may be the natural course of things for government control to expand and freedom to shrink. But as Jefferson knew, America was founded to reverse that process.

Source: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/how_gun_control_lost.html

[AlinPA]

1. Now, maybe background checks & permits can be eliminated. nt

[TPaine7]

2. Instant background checks are both good and constitutional, IMO.

Permits for concealed carry are constitutionally permissible as well.

The gun rights people don't want to eliminate all regulations.

[Longtooth]

4. I can go for that.

I don't think I would support licenses or registration for just ownership of a firearm though.

[AlinPA]

6. A permit for concealed carry is a license/registration.

[Longtooth]

8. Correct, and I am not opposed to that. What I do have a problem

with is a license/registration just for ownership of a firearm.

[AlinPA]

9. It's the same thing to me.

[SteveM]

14. I don't see it that way...

The further one gets from home, the more restrictions one encounters; however, Gorfle a few days ago came up with a procedure which may render this moot: Upon getting a driver's license, or official state i.d., run the NICS test. If it comes back negative, you get a code letter ("F" for firearm?) which the card-holder could then present to a gun seller (even an individual) who in turn is obligated to record the license holder number and retain the number for ___ years. This record could only be revealed under 4th Amendment procedures. Though there could be problems (lost numbers, opting out), the gun-owner would no longer be standing out like an oasis in the desert, but would become the desert along with 160,000,000 other Americans who merely are qualified to own guns. There is no record of gun registration except through due process.

[AlinPA]

19. Sounds easy, but having your name on file as possibly having weapons is also

troublesome, because as rights are eroded the 4th could go the way of habeas corpus and Bush**'s ignoring congress, wiretapping, etc.

[SteveM]

22. True. But think of the expenditure trying to check out 180 mill.(nt)

[AlinPA]

25. The cost to do all this checking (that doesn't work anyway) must be high.

[Old Codger]

11. Not

A permit for concealed carry is a license/registration.
Posted by AlinPA


I have a CW, I am registered for that , but they have no registration for my weapons... At least in Oregon there is no place on the application to list what weapon you choose to carry. Registration has always led to confiscation...

[AlinPA]

12. In order to get the permit I presume you filled out a form or answered some personal

questions. They didn't register the weapons, they registered you. That's what I mean.

[tburnsten]

15. Registering the individual for Concealed Carry isn't

as bad as it could be, in my state it is just a list of questions, often repeated, about your criminal history. nowhere does it ask what I will be carrying, and the cop I have shown my permit to didn't ask a single question about it, just handed it back with my license. Obviously some locales are going to be far worse than others in how they treat carriers, like states that require registration of guns, and registration of each individual carried weapon. I think I can take the incremental regaining of rights we are experiencing, it is better than nothing and despite a shrill minorities best efforts we ARE moving in the right direction, slowly by slowly.

[beevul]

17. Yup. I also have no objection to background checks at retail. N/T.

[bossy22]

3. honest question

what do you have against the background checks?...i mean i understand the part about the permits but the instant background check in my mind isnt an infringement on my rights. I believe the background check makes me safer by making sure the guy buying this gun isnt an individual who has a history of violence and law breaking

i know it would be much easier to buy a gun if we didnt have the paper work and background checks- it would save us probably 10 minutes- but if those 10 mintues could save lives than im willing to give up those 10 minutes

I believe the background checks make us all safer without infringing on our rights...

[AlinPA]

5. It's a pain in the rear and the government is collecting information they can use against us.

Plus it doesn't work. Still lots of crazed shooters.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. It catches a lot of people that shouldn't be buying guns.

Nothing handy at the moment, but there's a published report out there somewhere listing the number of checks, and denied applications per year.

Besides, they registered the firearm to you when you bought it, if you bought it from a dealer. All the BATFE has to do is come collect the forms, the seller is required to keep on file. (which is done whenever one is closed or goes out of business.)

[AlinPA]

16. I just don't see felons going to a place where background checks are done to get a gun.

I'm sure they know they will be denied by the search and will go to places where checks aren't made. As far as mentally ill that would also be the case. Additionally, mentally ill sometimes think they are defending themselves against society.

[Longtooth]

18. No, it does not. See post 7

[Longtooth]

7. I don't oppose the instant background check but

I do not know of any prosecutions resulting from it. The bradybunch liked to tell us about how great it is and how many felons were prevented from buying a gun because the NICS blocked the sale. But the reality of it is that the blocked sales came mostly from people with outstanding traffic tickets. They paid their tickets and then got their guns. If a felon was blocked by NICS then that felon had committed a criminal act by trying to buy a gun. So why have there been NO such prosecutions? All this has proved one thing, that criminals do not buy their guns at gun stores or from FFL dealers at all.

[tburnsten]

10. Yep, many NICS denials are simple procedural errors

since a good majority of prohibited people have no clear understanding of what actually happens when the form 4473 is called in, they do not want to be picked up by local law enforcement for trying to get past it.


I was delayed a couple times this year, bot a real issue. I thought I was being singled out but then my last transfer was instant, so all is well and whatever held me up has been cleared up.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. If the sale was blocked before completion...

Then no crime was committed, AFAIK. Entirely possible for someone to end up with a felony on their record, or even a restraining order that would trigger the failure of a NICS check, that they might not recall from their teenage years or what have you.

Regardless, if someone has outstanding traffic tickets, they probably have a warrant. That's not a procedural error.

[sl8]

21. It would almost certainly be at least one felony.

The attempted purchase of a firearm by an individual who knowingly provides false information on a firearm transfer application is a federal felony offense, under 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(6).

A quick Google search turns up a number of State laws against attempted purchases, as well.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. I can't remember

Do you sign that form before or after the NICS call is made? Been a few years since I did a store/FFL transaction.

I guess if you already filled out the form, then yes, because you'd have attested you are not a felon. Still, mistakes can be made...

Edit: grammar.

[tburnsten]

26. The form is filled out and signed

before the call is made, they relay the information from the form over the phone, which is used to determine elgibility. If the form was not signed and dated before the call, the call itself would be meaningless and require a repeat.

But you are right, mistakes can be made and some people become "prohibited" briefly without knowing it, usually in the case of traffic tickets and such. Delays are quite common and denials can be by mistake or for quite innocent things, so that is probably the biggest reason why attempts are not relayed to local Law Enforcement.

[radioburning]

24. It lost because it was faulty and mis-directed to begin with. n/t