What the NRA is saying about Obama

[gorfle]

So I got my monthly NRA magazine, America's 1st Freedom, and in it they have a full page display, along with removable post-cards to give to others, that outlines "Barack Obama's Ten Point Plan"

Barack Obama's Ten Point Plan:

1) Ban use of firearms for home self-defense.

2) Pass Federal laws eliminating your Right-to-Carry.

3) Ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns.

4) Close down 90% of the gun shops in America.

5) Ban rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.

6) Increase federal taxes on guns and ammunition by 500 percent.

7) Restore voting rights for five million criminals including those who have been convincted of using a gun to commit a violent crime.

8) Expand the Clinton semi-auto ban to include millions more firearms.

9) Mandate a government-issued license to purchase a firearm.

10) Appoint judges to the U.S. Supreme Court and Federal judiciary who share his views of the Second Amendment.

[liberal N proud]

1. They obviously didn't LISTEN to his speech last Thursday

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. Ok, you posted that bilge.

Now, as a poster here, why not do an analysis regarding the truth of those claims?

[murielm99]

5. Good one.

I'll be waiting, too.

[SteveM]

30. Why wait for others? Jump in (nt)

[gorfle]

11. Because...

Because I don't know the truth of the claims. I posted this here so that those of you who know the truth of the claims could clarify, and to demonstrate the kind of information being disseminated by the NRA concerning Obama.

[iverglas]

14. so

Didn't they footnote it at all?


I think I'll wander over to the Choice forum and post what the Army of God is saying about some Democrats ... after all, we need to know what the anti-choice militants think about your candidates, and contemplate how you could make them happy, no?

[gorfle]

15. No.

No, they did not foot note it, though the rest of the magazine (and the past few months worth of magazines) has cited individual stances.

I did find this on the NRA-ILA web site that seems to address many of the points, with footnotes:

http://www.nraila.org/obama/

[SteveM]

29. Waiting for your contribution (nt)

[valerief]

3. WOW. Can they lie that blatantly? I guess they can. nt

[tucsonlib]

27. What a Bunch of BS

The NRA - Just another Republican front group playing the "fear" card to try to influence voters.
Does anyone out there still believe that the NRA is a "grass-roots" or "non-partisan" organization?

[stillcool]

4. Guns, God and Gays Lies...

Yipeee!

[slackmaster]

6. This should be submitted to fightthesmears.com

The site crashes my Web browser when I try to search for text on it.

[sinkingfeeling]

7. In what magazine can I list the NRA's ten biggest lies, because I think that list is it.

[tularetom]

8. Fuck the NRA I have all the guns I need

WTF do I need that bunch of assholes for.

Some years ago my uncle paid for an NRA membership for me. I dropped it as soon as it expired but I would say conservatively that they have spent over $100 since then mailing shit to me trying to scare the bejeesus out of me about silly crap like "Barack Obama's Ten Point Plan".

I'd be a lot more worried about some asshole like POW McCain declaring martial law and ordering the confiscation of all weapons in private hands than I would be about this dopey shit.

But I'm really not all that worried about either one.

Now if you'll excuse me it's the second day of dove season here and I have to go out for a little recreation.

[SteveM]

32. Joining the IRA is a good way to get you registered as a gun-owner...

Good luck on dove-hunting. I went out Monday, but the tanks were dry and the sunflowers did not sprout due to lack of rain. Second time I've been skunked.

[tularetom]

34. See the thing is I don't want to be registered as a gun owner

How many guns I have is MY business not the government's and sure as hell not the NRA's.

I didn't get a limit of doves this morning probably because I got out there too late. Limit is 10 I got 6. But I can go back out tonight for the other 4, it's all on my property. I have 40 acres and my neighbor has 120 which she bought from me about 10 years ago, there is a creek running through it at the back and at least 30 or 40 acres of good habitat back there. Our biggest problem is keeping people off of there during dove and pheasant seasons. Between her family and ours, there are more hunters than the land can support so we really don't want outsiders in there. She did a citizen's arrest of some trespassers a couple years ago, pretty remarkable since she's about 70 years old. My wife hates it out here (too many snakes) and would like to move back to town but I'm really resisting that. I don't know how long I'll be able to hold out so I'm enjoying it while I can.

[SteveM]

36. Sounds like great property. Hope you hold onto it...

We at least had a thrill when the owner, tending the BBQ on the back porch confronted a loud rattlesnake. Before we could do anything, it scurried back under the house. We all felt better, sort of.

[gorfle]

55. Newsflash

Newsflash: Purchasing a firearm through an FFL dealer is going to get you registered as a gun-owner.

Joining the NRA gets you registered as a gun owner who cares and probably votes.

[Mercracer]

51. You really think that gun bans don't effect you?

How would you like to be told that you can only own single shot rifles and shotguns? That you can only hunt with a 20 ga or .410 ga? No rifles over .22lr caliber because they could potentially defeat soft armor? You may think that I am exaggerating, but a .30-30 soft point deer hunting round can defeat soft armor. If all scary "armor piercing" bullets are banned, you will be stuck with a .22.

[tburnsten]

52. But only CB caps!

[tburnsten]

9. Unfortunately those are all documented stances of his

and he is going to have to put some effort into putting fears that he would pursue those policies to rest. If he doesn't, he is going to lose a large block of voters.

[Sinistrous]

12. "Documented?" Citations please.

Waiting....

[gorfle]

16. Here you go

This web page appears to be the basis for at least some of the bullet points:

http://www.nraila.org/obama/

[spin]

17. Candidate's position on Gun Control...

Barack Obama on Gun Control..

* Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)
* FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)
* Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)
* Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
* 2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
* Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)
* Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
* Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
* Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004)
* Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
* Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)

John McCain on Gun Control

* I know how to use guns; but I don't own one. (Nov 2007)
* Prosecute criminals, not citizens for gun ownership. (Sep 2007)
* Don't hold gun manufacturers liable for crimes. (Sep 2007)
* Opposes restrictions on assault weapons and ammunition types. (Sep 2007)
* Calls for GOP "tolerance" of closing gun show loopholes. (May 2002)
* Ban cheap guns; require safety locks; for gun show checks. (Aug 1999)
* Supports ban on certain assault weapons. (Aug 1999)
* Voted against Brady Bill & assault weapon ban. (Aug 1999)
* Guns are a problem, but so are violent web sites & videos. (Aug 1999)
* Punish criminals who abuse 2nd Amendment rights. (May 1999)
* Youth Violence Prevention Act restricts guns for kids. (May 1999)
* Repeal existing gun restrictions; penalize criminal use. (Jul 1998)
* Voted YES on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)
* Voted YES on banning lawsuits against gun manufacturers for gun violence. (Mar 2004)
* Voted NO on background checks at gun shows. (May 1999)
* Voted YES on more penalties for gun & drug violations. (May 1999)
* Voted YES on loosening license & background checks at gun shows. (May 1999)
* Voted YES on maintaining current law: guns sold without trigger locks. (Jul 1998)
* Ban gun registration & trigger lock law in Washington DC. (Mar 2007)
* Allow firearms in National Parks. (Feb 2008)

Joe Biden on Gun Control

* Keep assault weapons ban; close gun show loophole. (Apr 2007)
* Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)
* Voted NO on banning lawsuits against gun manufacturers for gun violence. (Mar 2004)
* Voted YES on background checks at gun shows. (May 1999)
* Voted NO on more penalties for gun & drug violations. (May 1999)
* Voted NO on loosening license & background checks at gun shows. (May 1999)
* Voted NO on maintaining current law: guns sold without trigger locks. (Jul 1998)
* Rated F by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun control voting record. (Dec 2003)

Sarah Palin on Gun Control

* Hunts and fishes, as did her father. (Aug 2008)
* Hunts as much as she can; freezer-full of wild game. (Aug 2008)
* Supports ending D.C.'s 32-year-old ban on handguns. (Jun 2008)
* Lifelong NRA member & champion of right to bear arms. (Feb 2008)
* Supports Constitutional right to bear arms. (Nov 2006)

http://www.issues2000.org/default.htm

[iverglas]

20. well let's try 'em one by one

NRA: 1) Ban use of firearms for home self-defense.

Where do I look for that one?

Will I find Obama also wanting to ban the use of firearms for nose-picking and weed control?

Are there actually any laws anywhere in the US that ban the USE of firearms for a particular PURPOSE?

(Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there are regulations about the types of firearms that may be used for hunting certain game, e.g., and I'm also sure you all know what I'm saying.)

[Mercracer]

50. DC Gun ban

The DC gun ban actually banned guns for home defense. You were technically prohibited to remove your gun lock while the gun was in your home.......

[iverglas]

53. well now if you'd like to answer the question

you might prove useful.

The DC legislation said precisely fuck all about the use of firearms.

The DC legislation has precisely fuck all to do with Obama.

So, back to the question.

The allegation is that OBAMA has a TEN-POINT PLAN that includes:

"Ban use of firearms for home self-defense."

And I'm waiting for the substantiation of this allegation. I mean, I know nobody *here* is alleging it, but I think everybody deserves to know whether it's true, eh?

[tburnsten]

54. It certainly did adress firearms use

If it is a felony to assemble or unlock your firearm, a felony to load your firearm, and a felony to move your firearm from one room of your own house to another, than how can you say that the D.C. legislation did not address firearms use? How exactly do you use a firearm without it being assembled, free from locking mechanisms and loaded? And what about moving your own property around your own house?

[tburnsten]

18. You may not understand some of what Spin posted

but what it basically means is that Obama has a history of gunning for the most expansive and total bans on privately owned firearms and firearms stores that any politician in US history has ever advocated.

[spin]

21. Just how important is the gun control issue in the election?...

Absolute Right To Gun Ownership

The Gun Control issue is second in the Big Three issues in terms of viewer interest, behind Abortion and ahead of Education -- all the other issues are very distantly behind. Voters are split on the issue: 42% agree with McCain's pro-gun rights stance, while 44% agree with Obama's pro-registration stance.
http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm

One thing is for sure, the pro-gunners know how to get the vote out.

It is also interesting to look at the other two top issues:

Abortion is a Woman's Right

59% agree with Obama's pro-choice stance, and only 34% with McCain's pro-life stance. This issue has the fewest people answering "no opinion" of any VoteMatch issue (only 7%), which reflects the fact that it is overwhelmingly the issue with the most voter interest (as indicated by our viewership statistics).

Parents Choose Schools Via Vouchers

44% agree with Obama's stance to fund public schools only, and 37% agree with McCain's stance to fund vouchers for private schools. Education is primarily a non-federal issue, with 93% of funding and most decisions occuring at the state and local levels. But education is solidly third in voter interest (behind abortion and guns, as measured by our viewership statistics -- it has slipped from second place in 1999-2000), so the candidates are obligated to make their views known despite the limited power of the presidency on this issue.

[slackmaster]

22. Percent who agree or disagree doesn't tell you very much

More important, on issues like those three, is the degree to which people care about them.

Few people who favor more gun control are as passionate about their position as are people who value their right to own a gun.

[spin]

24. True, but my daughter who has a concealed carry license...

is very opposed to McCain's view on abortion. She's doing a lot a research on the candidates views and voting record before she makes her final choice.

Currently she plans to vote for Obama.

[slackmaster]

25. Either the gun issue is not as important to her, or she doesn't see Obama as a real threat

Personally I think the biggest threats are always in Congress.

[spin]

28. The gun issue is very important to her...

She once deterred an intruder breaking into our home with a handgun.

But as you say, she doesn't see Obama as a big threat to gun ownership.

The surprising thing about my daughters opinion is that she could have decided to get an abortion on two occasions. She had broken up with her boyfriend and discovered she was pregnant (yes, she was using birth control pills). She decided to marry the ex-boyfriend and raise the child. During her pregnancy she was diagnosed with eclampsia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclampsia and spent a considerable amount of time in intensive care waiting until the doctors were sure the baby was developed enough to induce labor. She survived and so did the baby.

The doctors recommended that she wait 5 years before becoming pregnant again. Her husband overcame the birth control pills for the second time and she was pregnant again within one year. The second baby was delivered but almost died because the umbilical cord was wrapped around his chest twice.

Now I have two wonderful grandchildren to enjoy. She is also very glad she didn't exercise her legal right to abort. The fertile but otherwise useless boyfriend is now history. She divorced and found a much better man to marry and they have one of the best martial relationships I've ever observed.

Recent research shows that birth control pills can cause women to make bad decisions in their relationships. When she met her current husband, she was not on birth control pills as she had had her tubes tied.

[tburnsten]

31. Spellcheck spin, spellcheck

Wouldn't save you from this little gem of humor-

"they have one of the best martial relationships I've ever observed."

I hope their relationship isn't too martial! Those kids need parents, not drill instructors!

I kid, I kid.

My fiance is actually pregnant right now, she was nearing the end of her deppo shot when we conceived, kind of a long shot, plus she has endometriosis and her gyno has always told her he thinks she will never have kids. Well the little fellow is healthy and seems quite strong, pounds away in there all day and all night, and I sing to him (or her) and get him all hyper. Congrats on losing the zero though.

[spin]

37. Spell check doesn't catch stupid mistakes....

Although my daughter and her husband, as with most married couples, do occasionally have a martial relationship. The fact that they control their arguments and don't allow them to poison their relationship preserves their marital relationship. Quite often my daughter gets angry because my son in law acts like a drill instructor. Reminds her of me. (I know because I live with them.)

I was an tech instructor in the Air Force during the Vietnam era.

[Herman74]

38. Well, what the HELL do you expect??? HELLO, THIS IS DU HERE!! and Obama is from...

...the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.

[tburnsten]

41. Follow the American political way

and let him know that while he is our candidate, we would be much happier about him if he would just come out and support the US Constitution. And he would win over millions of swing voters in the process.

[slackmaster]

48. Welcome to my Cassandra complex, tburnsten

It's so obvious, yet our party leaders seem completely blind to it. We're talking about the difference between a decisive victory, and a situation where court decisions and recounts determine the outcome.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

13. Yes.

If they are documented stances, then said stances exist in documentation. Please provide cites and links to said documentation.

[one-eyed fat man]

19. Here's a page full

http://www.issues2000.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm

[spin]

23. Interesting link...one part jumped out at me...

Concealed carry OK for retired police officers

Obama voted for a bill in the Illinois senate that allowed retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons. If there was any issue on which Obama rarely deviated, it was gun control. He was the most strident candidate when it came to enforcing and expanding gun control laws. So this vote jumped out as inconsistent.

When I queried him about the vote, he said, "I didn't find that surprising. I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry. This was a narrow exception in an exceptional circumstance where a retired police officer might find himself vulnerable as a consequence of the work he has previously done--and had been trained extensively in the proper use of firearms."

It wasn't until a few weeks later that another theory came forward about the uncharacteristic vote. Obama was battling with his GOP opponent to win the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police.
http://www.issues2000.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm

I am strongly in favor of allowing honest, responsible and trained citizens to carry concealed weapons. Statistics show that concealed carry permit holders are the least dangerous and best group of citizens in our society.

CCW permit holders have already proven their commitment to doing things the right, legal way by going through the arduous, expensive process of CCW licensing. They are the goody-two-shoes of the gun-owning populace. An analysis of Florida crime patterns by law professor John Lott found that between 1987 (when Florida began issuing CCW permits) and 1996, only 18 CCW licensees, out of a statewide total of 221,443 permit holders, had committed a gun crime. In 1996 alone, there were over 37,000 gun crimes in Florida, prompting the conclusion that average citizens are more prone to committing gun crime than permit holders.
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=d499c6b7-660d-4c5a-be0d-a100a83dbbe5

For more recent data for Florida visit the Concealed Weapon / Firearm Summary Report
October 1, 1987 - July 31, 2008
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html
Summary: 1,372,928 licenses issued, 165 revoked for Crime After Licensure

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

26. BWAHAHA!

John Lott! Mary Rosh!

Sorry, but any data from John Lott is a joke, as he is a joke.

[SteveM]

33. What do you think of the "Issues 2000" data? (nt)

[spin]

35. I expected that criticism. Therefore I posted the link...

to the official Florida web page with the updated info on licenses issued and revoked.

In case you overlooked it: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

165 licenses were revoked for crime after Licensure with a Firearm Utilized out of a total of 1,372,928 licenses issued.

165 / 1 372 928 = 0.000120181102 Not matter how you try to frame it concealed weapons permit holders in Florida RARELY misused their privilege. And the statistics cover more than a 20 year period. 65 / 20 = 8.25 incidents per year.

But maybe Florida is exceptional and other states are filled with individuals who abuse their concealed carry license. Lets look at Tennessee.

Very few incidents, compared to the total number of active Tennessee Handgun Permits, shows crimes or incidents being committed after the person had received their handgun permit. They do exist but, it is a very small percentage, less than 1/2 of 1% of the total number of permits issued. http://legallyarmed.com/decade.htm

My argument is not that concealed carry permits reduce crime as John Lott suggests. That is a subject for another debate. Many factors influence crime rates and the existence of concealed carry permits is just one of them. In general CCW permit holders go about their lives avoiding dangerous encounters and definitely don't view themselves as law enforcement officers. Not all that many people have concealed carry permits and not all people with concealed carry permits pack heat at all times.

My point is that people with CCW licenses are (as Lott suggests)the "goody-two-shoes of the gun-owning populace". No, they are not angels, but as a group they commit far less firearm related crimes than the general population.

Obama should not oppose people who have met all the requirements of obtaining a carry license. They definitely are not the problem.

edited for typo

[doc03]

10. I saw that card posted on the bulletin board at

work yesterday.

[Herman74]

39. Thanks, Gorfle, for proving what I've always suspected...

...that the NRA has infiltrated DU (they're prone to do such things, having done them in the past).

"So I got my monthly NRA magazine..." -- Gorfle

[slackmaster]

40. Are you accusing another member of posting here on the orders of an outside organization?

If so, that sounds kind of paranoid to me.

I trust that others who participate in the forum do so for reasons of their own, and are speaking their own minds.

[gorfle]

42. The NRA has infiltrated DU?

I assure you, I'm nobody in the NRA except another joe-sixpack member. Surely I'm not the only NRA Democrat in the world, especially since each election the NRA endorses Democrats.

[spin]

44. Yes there are plenty of NRA Democrats...

I'm also a "joe-sixpack" member.

The NRA does endorse Democrats. For example:

The gun rights group - traditionally not a left-wing organization, to answer the question - lent its endorsement Monday to Gov. Bill Richardson, a Democrat.

For governor.
http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2006/oct/03/gun-friendly-guv-gains-nra-approval/

or (for a while) Howard Dean:

Howard Dean proudly claims to have been endorsed by the National Rifle Association, and indeed it is true that the NRA`s Political Victory Fund (PVF) endorsed Dean in his re-election bid for governor of Vermont in 2000. But NRA members know that an endorsement by NRA-PVF in one election is not an endorsement forever. Endorsements are made based on several criteria specific to individual elections, including candidates` statements, voting records and other pertinent information. Dean was endorsed based on his position on issues specific to Vermont that were current at that time.
http://www.nrapvf.org/News/Article.aspx?ID=127

For a list of candidates for Senate and House seats in 2006 check the following link. (NOTE: not all Republicans are rated A+ and not all Democrats are rated F).

Representative John D. Dingell (MI) got an A+ rating despite the fact he is a Democrat as did Senator Bill Nelson Sr. (FL)
http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_detail.php?r_id=3492

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jody]

43. Obama can defuse such assertions by by one simple pledge:

“I will veto every bill that comes to me as president that infringes upon the right of law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms for self-defense."

[spin]

46. But...

if he were to say that he would be accused of pandering to gun owners and the NRA.

Considering his voting record and his previous statements, I doubt he would gain the endorsement of the NRA. One issue gun owners would not believe his sudden conversion. He might lose some votes from the big city liberal anti-gun voters.


Remember what a failure John Kerry was when he pretended to be a deer hunter:

"He was in Wisconsin the other day, pretending to be a regular guy, and was asked what kind of hunting he preferred. 'I'd have to say deer,' said the senator. 'I go out with my trusty 12-gauge double-barrel, crawl around on my stomach. ... That's hunting.'

"This caused huge hilarity among my New Hampshire neighbors. None of us has ever heard of anybody deer hunting by crawling around on his stomach, even in Massachusetts. The trick is to blend in with the woods and, given that John Kerry already looks like a forlorn tree in late fall, it's hard to see why he'd give up his natural advantage in order to hunt horizontal

*************snip*************

Update from a reader from Minnesota: "The fact that John Kerry claims he crawls around on the ground while deer hunting is less ridiculous than the fact that he claims to hunt deer with a double-barrel 12 gauge. Ask any hunter. You hunt deer with either a rifle or a shotgun that can shoot slugs (which you cannot do with a double-barrel shotgun). To a true deer hunter, Kerry's claim is even more ludicrious than Howard Dean stating that the book of Job is in the New Testament and then claiming he is a devout Christian. Kerry's statement clearly shows he has absolutely no clue about hunting."
http://www.tonyrogers.com/humor/kerry_the_deer_hunter.htm

He is anti-gun and a politician from Illinois, a state which has draconian gun laws. If he was pro-gun from that area, he would have never made it as far as he has.

To make a statement like the one you suggest might cause him to lose more votes than he would gain.

He might admit that after he had traveled the country and was exposed to the gun culture, he was open to reappraising his opinion of gun control. He might mention the recent SCOTUS decision which favored private gun ownership. He might state that considering that decision he is is for reasonable gun regulations determined by the individual states. He might also say that he favors strict enforcement of existing gun laws that would remove firearms from criminal hands.

If he were to do that, he might gain enough votes to win a close election.

[jody]

47. I agree gun-grabbers will accuse him of pandering to the NRA but IMO he has the ability to convince

voters he is sincere and that would gain votes.

In any case it's September and he missed several opportunities to make such a pledge and I'm not optimistic that he will make such a pledge over the next two months.

[one-eyed fat man]

56. might be a tough sell...........

He's pretty much been called on 'saying one thing TO gun owning folks in Scranton' and 'saying another thing ABOUT them in San Francisco.'

His recent declarations of support for the the Second Amendment don't appear to have convinced even a majority of the folks here.

After all, the 2008 'gun plank' in the platform is a DIRECT LIFT of his "Chicago-Cheyenne" stump speech. Cities should be able to have gun bans like Chicago and DC; calling for a more stringent Assault Weapons Ban; and, of course, the ever popular "plugging of the 'gun-show loophole.'"

Still sounds like he supports the Second except for part about people having guns.

[jody]

45. I googled the issue and the NRA-ILA has sources for similar assertions at the link below.

On the Second Amendment, Don’t Believe Obama!