Police Fatally Shoot Man on South Side

[Indy Lurker]

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/police.involved.shooting.2.827445.html

Chicago Police fatally shot a knife-wielding man Saturday night in the South Side's Marquette Park neighborhood.

Police responded about 7:15 p.m. to a requested well being check in the 7700 block of South Kedzie Avenue and discovered a man with a knife attempting to stab the person who called 911. The incident appeared to be domestic-related, police said.

***********************************

Seems like this would be a good application for a Taser.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

1. Deadly force calls for deadly force.

The suspect was attempting to stab the victim, deadly force is authorized to stop the threat.

[comtec]

2. I disagree,

A tazer should have been used first, if he continued to be a threat, then deadly force by the other cop would have been justified.
it seems like they're always using the next level of force.
when talking could work, they tazer,
when a tazer or bear spray could work, they shoot to kill.
I'm not saying deadly force is never needed, in fact I would say most of the time it's probably justified, perhaps even now.
But they should have tried a tazer first. There are always two police on a scene like this, one should tazer first - at the least it should slow him down, if not, the second cop, his/her gun already drawn and aimed, should fire then.
Think of it as this way, the first cop gives the second one time to make a better aim if needed.

[jeepnstein]

3. The guy had a knife.

Have you ever had to face an attacker with a knife? There is absolutely no time to play around with tasers or spray. Your time from the moment you spot the weapon until you have to get the situation resolved is counted in seconds.

I've had the good fortune to never have to shoot a suspect armed with a knife. One time I should have and nearly got cut. Another time the suspect immediately dropped the weapon when challenged.

[old mark]

30. In the second case, nobody got shot or cut

and everybody walked away.

You have to do what you have to do to defend yourself and others in the situation.

evidently the officers gave the guy a chance to disarm, and he attacked them.
His choice.

mark

[Flyboy_451]

4. It's very easy to play Monday morning Quaterback...

But the truth is, neither you or I was there. Violent encounters are a dynamic situation and those of us in uniform are held accountable for life and death decisions made within a split second. These decisions are often made with very limited or inadequate information. We do not have the luxury of second guessing ourselves with the advantage of retrospect and time after the event. While the officers may or may not have had the opportunity to utilize less than lethal options, it is not our place to make this judgment based on the VERY SMALL amount of information presented by the given article.

And people wonder why some police officers treat the public with disdain...We often face criticism from those we seek to help and frequently are berated by those that have little or no knowledge of violent encounters. We are charged with the protection of our communities, yet our communities continue to hold us to near impossible standards, requiring that we ALWAYS make the right decision. The general public has little knowledge of what pressures a police officer faces, both on duty and off.

I say that until the average person is willing to place themselves between the criminal element and their community, on a daily basis, they have little right to complain about the manner in which we do our job. The roll of the police officer is one of the most difficult jobs within our society, and is often one of the lowest paying, least appreciated jobs as well. Perhaps the public should take some time to reflect on what our officers sacrifice rather than what mistakes they may or may not make, based on some news item. Just a thought...

JW

[MicaelS]

6. The way things are going Tasers ARE deadly force

Seems like about once or twice a month there's a news article about someone dying after being Tasered.

[Flyboy_451]

8. While there has been instances

in which the use of a Taser reportedly resulted in death, they still remain to be very seldom in comparison to their level of use. Generally speaking, Tasers are a LESS LETHAL weapon, not a less THAN lethal weapon.

Personally, I am a strong advocate of the Taser as a tool within the escalation of force. Unfortunately, like any other tool, Tasers can, and have been misused. The value of tools such as pepper spray and Tasers is that they allow for options that are less likely to result in serious injury or death, while still allowing for control of a violent situation. Downsides include misinformation regarding when and how they should be used.

The general public, often seems to cry outrage at the use of ANY form of force without understanding the events that led to the action in question. Police officers face challenges that most other people have never been faced with and then must answer for their actions to these same people. To question a decision made at a moments notice, that results in life or death consequences presents it's own complications. I find it hard to question a police officer's judgment without first hand knowledge of the incident in question.

Imagine the stress you would be under if the decisions you made at work had the consequences of life and death. Now imagine that you must make those decisions instantly, based on very limited information. Now imagine that people with little or no experience in similar situations are going to evaluate your actions and determine whether you made the right decision. Keep in mind that the people judging you, will have the advantage of retrospect, the possibility of evidence that you did not have at your disposal when you made the decision, and the safety of not being engaged in a violent encounter.

While there will always be cases in which police officers make mistakes, keep in mind that we are human, and are thus limited by the same constraints as any other person. Our training is intended to provide guidance from which to base decisions on, but it is impossible to train for every situation that may arise. Sometimes the best we can do, is to make a decision that we HOPE is right. To question this decision based on nothing more than was presented in the posted news article, does nothing but drive a wedge between the community and those who wear a uniform. I am not saying that law enforcement is above oversight, but that oversight should be tempered to take into account the situation at hand, and that those charged with oversight should have a working knowledge of dealing with such encounters.

JW

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

13. Consider this.

A suspect with a knife can close the space and stab or slash a victim if they are within 7 yards before 95% of shooters can pull the trigger of a firearm in their hand. If a man with a knife is within 7 yards of an officer and is threatening anyone then lethal force can be justified.

David

[AtheistCrusader]

16. I believe the Tuller Rule

is 'draw aim and fire' not pull the trigger, before someone closes a 21 foot gap.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. I've heard both.

I know most people can't draw aim and fire. It's doubtful to me that someone without very good training could put their finger on the trigger decide to fire and fire accurately enough to put an attacker down in time to keep from being wounded. I'm sure a lot of it depends on who has the gun and who is the attacker. If Usain Bolt has the knife I believe most people are in touble, if the Refrigerator Perry has the knife I believe most people could get a shot off. I would like to know the actual numbers though.

David

[AtheistCrusader]

24. Not so much deciding to fire...

My mistake, it's used as justification to have your weapon drawn at a distance, and even fire at a distance.

In the time it takes to close that gap, if you already have the weapon trained on your attacker, you should be able to fire at least two shots. What Dennis Tuller showed was that those two shots may not save you from a fatal stab, or slash. It's not so much that most people won't fire, it's whether the bullet will have a debilitating effect on him or her before you suffer severe injury from your attacker. There used to be a lot of criticism of the Police (and still is) when they shoot someone holding a knife some distance away. A lot of people don't realize that a gun won't necessarily 'turn someone off', so even at what appears to be a safe distance, a person with a knife and intent is a deadly threat.

Had to look that up.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. The only person I would ask

was the potential victim, that was being menaced by the guy with the knife. If that person felt a taser might have worked, I would think that might lend support to your interpretation of the event. But ultimately, it's up to the Officer's judgment, no one elses. They have been trained, where you and I have not.

[jody]

5. The officer should have shot the knife out of the man's hand. That's how it's done in the movies and

that's the extent of knowledge most gun-grabbers have of firearms.

Truth mixed with :sarcasm:

[iverglas]

19. truth mixed with something, anyhow

And given the proportions, I think that when well aged and spread on my garden, it would produce some lovely big tomatoes.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[old mark]

29. Absolutely, jody - I have seen it with my own eyes -

in the movies and on TV.

And after all, if it's on TV it must be true - that's tha law!

mark

[Indy Lurker]

7. Let me Re-phrase

Seems like this COULD POSSIBLY be a good application for a Taser.

I was thinking more from the victim's perspective.

I'd rather be hit with a stray Taser than a stray bullet.

[Flyboy_451]

9. Without having been there...

we will likely never know. I do appreciate you re-phrasing your original thought though. While I share your sentiment about stray bullets, the truth is that we just don't know what the exact situation was.

JW

[JonQ]

11. Don't most taser guns

fire one set of darts? Meaning that if you miss you are pretty much SOL? So you could go for your taser, risk missing and having to drop said taser, then remove your gun, aim and fire, and hope this all takes place well before the deranged individual stabs you to death. Or you could shoot someone who is trying to kill you, minimizing your chances of going home in a body bag.

[Flyboy_451]

12. Tasers do indeed fire only one shot...

without the need to load an additional cartridge. They can also be used in a contact mode, just a a stun gun is used, although with diminished performance.

I find no other valid position, based on the evidence in the news article, than to believe that the officers in question utilized force to a degree that is consistent with safely containing the situation. If other evidence were to surface, my stance may change.

JW

[JonQ]

14. Yeah

but if you're going to use the taser in contact mode (or if they were issued the regular, non-projectile models) then you'd have to let the knife wielding individual get within arms reach. Bad idea.

I agree with you, they acted appropriately given the information at hand.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. Varies by model

Some give two shots. Some are just quickly reloaded with a spare cartridge stored in the butt of the weapon.

Part of the mitigation for this would be your partner having a pistol drawn, giving you lethal backup. A risk, given how much most police officers miss in firefights. If I was the potential victim, I'd prefer to have two police officers training guns on a knife wielding hostile, to one pistol and one taser.

[Flyboy_451]

25. I am not aware of any Taser product that allows for multiple

deployments without replacement of the cartridge (except of course using drive stun mode). Any information on such products?

Justin

[AtheistCrusader]

26. Couple options.

http://www.taser.com/products/military/Pages/TASERShockwave.aspx
But that is area denial.

I might be thinking of an off-brand that has two sets of doors and probes. I may have also misread the description of the m26 or whichever model stores a spare cartridge in the butt of the pistol.

[57_TomCat]

28. The original model...

had two cartridges side by side under a flashlight if I recall correctly. They used a type of gunpowder to lauch the probes and looked like the StarTrek Next generation Phaser 2. I was told the Original TASER was used as a design element in the creation of that prop. I can not find any of my old police training stuff from back in the mid to late 70's but it was considered a neat tool back then but not so effective as now.

[JonQ]

10. Seems like this would have been a good

opportunity for the man to put the knife down and submit to being arrested.

[jody]

15. The presidential campaign keeps gun-grabbers from posting their opinion on what LEO should have

done to avoid hurting the poor misguided violent criminal.
I miss their input because they always leave me :rofl:

[iverglas]

20. look what jody's missing

I've been looking for an opening.


The SAS, the Parachute Regiment and the Police decide to go on a survival weekend together to see who comes out on top. After some basic exercises the trainer tells them that their next objective is to go down into the woods and catch a rabbit, returning with it ready to skin and cook.
Night falls.

First up - the SAS. They don infrared goggles, drop to the ground and crawl into the woods in formation. Absolute silence for 5 minutes, followed by the unmistakable muffled 'phut-phut' of their trademark silenced 'double-tap'. They emerge with a large rabbit shot cleanly between the eyes.

'Excellent!' remarks the trainer.

Next up - the Paras. They finish their cans of lager, smear themselves with camouflage cream, fix bayonets and charge down into the woods, screaming at the top of their lungs. For the next hour the woods ring with the sound of rifle and machine-gun fire, hand grenades, mortar bombs and blood curdling war cries. Eventually they emerge, carrying the charred remains of a rabbit.

'A bit messy, but you achieved the aim; well done', says the trainer.

Lastly, in go the Coppers, walking slowly, hands behind backs, whistling Dixon of Dock Green. For the next few hours, the silence is only broken by the occasional crackle of a walkie-talkie 'Sierra Lima Whisky Tango Fanta One, suspect headed straight for you...' etc. After what seems an eternity, they emerge escorting a squirrel in handcuffs.

'What the hell do you think you are doing?' asks the incredulous trainer, 'Take this squirrel back and get me a rabbit like I asked you five hours ago!'

So back they go. Minutes pass. Minutes turn to hours, night drags on and turns to day. The next morning, the trainer and the other teams are awakened by the police, holding the handcuffed squirrel, now covered in bruises, one eye nearly shut.

'Are you taking the piss!!??' asks the now seriously irate trainer.

The police team leader nudges the squirrel, who squeaks:

'Alright, alright, I'm a fuckin' rabbit!'

[Flyboy_451]

22. While not particularly accurate...

It was still pretty damned funny, although I have heard a very similar one...AND I'M A COP!!!!

LOL

JW

[iverglas]

23. so was the guy who told it to me ;)

A British ex-cop who taught other cops to shoot. And owns lots o' guns, of the long variety now, although once had handguns. Turned 'em in for a large amount of cash a few years ago, bought some more long guns. He hunts regularly.

Strange buddies I have ...

[one-eyed fat man]

31. disarming a knife wielding opponent

For those people that think guns are more dangerous than knives, think again. Many professionals fear a opponent with a knife more than one with a gun.

The guy with knife means to hurt you, badly! He is rarely bluffing and often you will not see the knife until it is buried in your body. A gun is sometimes to intimidate with the person believing the sight of the gun alone will cause compliance. Without the actual intent to shoot, there is a slim chance hesitation on the assailant's part will work in your favor. That is almost never the case with a knife. It is also one reason that knife attacks are so deadly.

More than 60% of all people shot with firearms, even multiple times survive the attack. Cutting and stabbing victims don’t do nearly as well. Bullet wounds self-seal because of the elastic nature of human tissue. Knife cuts lay open and bleed profusely as the veins and arteries are opened wide.

These pictures are of a police detective, schooled in martial arts and the results of an encounter where he endeavored to disarm a criminal armed with ONLY a knife.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_8t59jorH2DM/Rirh50fDlSI/AAAAAAAAATw/3Wt76oGaW2o/s400/Knife+3.jpg

http://bp2.blogger.com/_8t59jorH2DM/Rirh50fDlTI/AAAAAAAAAT4/Lk7VeLjh2ak/s400/Knife+2.jpg

http://bp3.blogger.com/_8t59jorH2DM/Rirh6EfDlUI/AAAAAAAAAUA/MA_48ZMsrCA/s400/Knife+1.jpg