Obama and Gun rights

[Turbineguy]

Just got this little gem from a colleague who openly advocates the establishment of a Right-Wing Dictatorship in the US. I don't know how much of this is BS. It starts off with how the sender has prepared himself. BTW, he knows he's a nut case, he's been told plenty of times. Try not to get upset.


I just picked up a new Taurus Stainless 4510 TKR it fires both .410 GA 3inch Magnum ammunition or 2.5 inch shot shells as well as .45 Colt hollow points. I fired three quick shots at 10 yards at a man shaped silhouette target and removed the head as well as the left arm completely as well as totally shattering the 1/2" plywood backboard. I have considerable more weapons here at home but I've cached the majority of my weapons in a remote although readily accessible hiding spot in case my worst fears come to fruition and these Socialist bastards try to confiscate personal firearms. I lucked out as the factory has just come out with a new batch of these Sgotgun/revolver duos. The dealer I got my Taurus from told me that 62 Red Necks had ordered the same pistol from him this month because the're all scared that Obama might win the election.
Power to the people;
XXXX

Illinois State Rifle Association Executive Director Richard Pearson Issues Open Letter to Nation's Sportsmen Regarding Obama's History in the Illinois Senate

CHICAGO, Oct. 15 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The following is the text of an open letter to the nation's hunters and sportsmen issued today by Illinois State Rifle Association Executive Director Richard Pearson:

Fellow Sportsman,

Hello, my name is Rich Pearson and I have been active in the firearm rights movement for over 40 years. For the past 15 years, I have served in the Illinois state capitol as the chief lobbyist for the Illinois State Rifle Association.

I lobbied Barack Obama extensively while he was an Illinois State Senator. As a result of that experience, I know Obama's attitudes toward guns and gun owners better than anyone. The truth be told, in all my years in the Capitol I have never met a legislator who harbors more contempt for the law-abiding firearm owner than does Barack Obama.

Although Obama claims to be an advocate for the 2nd Amendment, his voting record in the Illinois Senate paints a very different picture. While a state senator, Obama voted for a bill that would ban nearly every hunting rifle, shotgun and target rifle owned by Illinois citizens. That same bill would authorize the state police to raid homes of gun owners to forcibly confiscate banned guns. Obama supported a bill that would shut down law-abiding firearm manufacturers including Springfield Armory, Armalite, Rock River Arms and Les Baer. Obama also voted for a bill that would prohibit law-abiding citizens from purchasing more than one gun per month.

Without a doubt, Barack Obama has proven himself to be an enemy of the law abiding firearm owner. At the same time, Obama has proven himself to be a friend to the hardened criminal. While a state senator, Obama voted 4 times against legislation that would allow a homeowner to use a firearm in defense of home and family.

Does Barack Obama still sound to you like a "friend" of the law-abiding gun owner?

And speaking of friends, you can always tell a person by the company they keep. Obama counts among his friends the Rev. Michael Pfleger - a renegade Chicago priest who has openly called for the murder of gun shop owners and pro-gun legislators. Then there is his buddy Richard Daley, the mayor of Chicago who has declared that if it were up to him, nobody would be allowed to own a gun. And let's not forget Obama's pal George Soros - the guy who has pumped millions of dollars into the UN's international effort to disarm law-abiding citizens.

Obama has shown that he is more than willing to use other people's money to fund his campaign to take your guns away from you. While a board member of the leftist Joyce Foundation, Barack Obama wrote checks for tens of millions of dollars to extremist gun control organizations such as the Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence and the Violence Policy Center.

Does Barack Obama still sound to you like a "friend" of the law-abiding gun owner?

By now, I'm sure that many of you have received mailings from an organization called "American Hunters and Shooters Association(AHSA)"
talking about what a swell fellow Obama is and how he honors the 2nd Amendment and how you will never have to worry about Obama coming to take your guns. Let me make it perfectly clear - everything the AHSA says about Obama is pure hogwash. The AHSA is headed by a group of left-wing elitists who subscribe to the British view of hunting and shooting. That is, a state of affairs where hunting and shooting are reserved for the wealthy upper-crust who can afford guided hunts on exclusive private reserves. The AHSA is not your friend, never will be.

In closing, I'd like to remind you that I'm a guy who has actually gone nose to nose with Obama on gun rights issues. The Obama I know cannot even begin to identify with this nation's outdoor traditions. The Obama I know sees you, the law abiding gun owner, as nothing but a low-class lummox who is easily swayed by the flash of a smile and a ration of rosy rhetoric. The Obama I know is a stony-faced liar who has honed his skill at getting what he wants - so long as people are willing to give it to him.

That's the Barack Obama I know.

The ISRA is the state's leading advocate of safe, lawful and responsible firearms ownership. Founded in 1903, the ISRA has represented the interests of millions of law-abiding Illinois firearm owners.

WEB SITE: http://www.isra.org



SOURCE Illinois State Rifle Association

[newfie11]

1. We own guns

and we are voting for Obama. This nut case can go jump in a lake.

[Mojorabbit]

4. Same here

but I can tell you the NRA and friends are blitzing our mailbox with junk scare mail. I told my husband. "The world is falling apart right now in a thousand ways". If there is gun legislation you don't like that is advanced it can be dealt with as it comes up but it is certainly not at the top of the list on reasons to pick a candidate for prez this time."

[geckosfeet]

2. Is this fellow related to Ted Kaczynski? Sounds like a classic to me.

This is the NRA and all it's subordinate organizations putting out nonsense to rile up the gun nuts.

No one is going to take your guns boys.

Relax. It's hunting season. Go shoot something.

[SteveM]

8. How do you feel about the "assault weapons" ban in the platform?

[geckosfeet]

11. Barricading yourself in a bunker and advocating violence is not a winning strategy.

[SteveM]

17. Again, how do you feel about the assault weapons ban being in the platform?

I don't know of anyone who has barricaded his/her self in a bunker, and who is advocating violence (strategic reasons or no).

[geckosfeet]

18. I think .22's are much better for target practice. Cheaper and more accurate.

I think assault weapons are good for,,, assaults - and maybe collections.

Does that answer your question? Or need I go into more detail?

[SteveM]

19. Actually, that does not answer the question...

The assault rifle (the term most widely used by military forces) describes a medium-powered carbine capable of FULL-AUTO fire; hence, why it is termed an "assault" rifle. "Assault weapons" is a term popularized by gun-control groups/MSM to confuse assault rifles with look-a-like carbines which are semi-automatic (not suitable for military use). The semi-automatic technology is quite common in civilian firearms, including many hunting rifles and shotguns as well as pistols and target guns. I have a .22 which is semi-automatic -- made in 1905.

Why I ask the question is because a number of folks posting here are quite irritated that the "gun issue" is dealt with when it "isn't/shouldn't be/hasn't been" an issue. Yet, they still favor the "assault weapons" ban (including the hugely expanded new one in the Democratic Party Platform). To Continue to favor the "AWB" is to continue fueling the gun-control issue.

You needn't get into detail. What is your answer?

ON EDIT: while the .22 long rifle is quite accurate, esp. when using match grade rifles, there are models of semi-auto carbines using .223 ammo (also rather cheap) which are just as accurate and at FAR greater range.

[geckosfeet]

20. I favor a partial assualt weapons ban.

I hope that is clear now.

Please stop badgering me about it.

[Tejas]

22. Why? Did the

'94 AWB reduce crime?

All it reduced was the numbers of Democrats in Congress.



sigh

[geckosfeet]

23. Until we prove that we can effectively regulate the sale and distribution

of firearms, the purchase of assault weapons should be subject to particular scrutiny.

These are weapons designed for assaults - attacking and defending territory. The average citizen has no need for these weapons.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gorfle]

25. The need of the average citizen.

These are weapons designed for assaults - attacking and defending territory. The average citizen has no need for these weapons.

You do understand, I assume, that the intent of the founding fathers was to have an armed populace to either eliminate or at least counter the military power of the federal army, right?

You do understand, then, that in order for the populace to undertake this role they must necessarily be similarly armed to federal army?

Assault weapons are the weapons most likely to fulfill the need our founders had the vision to insure against.

[geckosfeet]

26. You are, truly, out of your mind.

[SteveM]

28. Please read the arguments here; it can be tough (nt)

[gorfle]

32. In what way?

What part of my post did you disagree with?

[SteveM]

27. Did you even read post #19 about what constitutes an "assault rifle?"

My posts to you were respectful, yet you claim to be badgered. At least you have "partially" answered the question -- and revealed that you REFUSE to understand and accept the conventional and widely-accepted definitions of ASSAULT RIFLE (full auto capable) and the gun-controllers' concocted "assault weapon" which is nothing more than a semi-auto carbine of moderate power, considered unsuited for military assaults.

By way of reference, the Garand M1 rifle used by our army in WW II is a semi-auto rifle with the far more powerful .30-06 cartridge (when compared with the M-16 & AK 47). This weapon is not an ASSAULT RIFLE and was consequently rendered obsolete for modern military use some half a century ago.

[geckosfeet]

29. And your point is,,,, that a .223 is a benign?

An eight year was killed by an uzi this past weekend. If there had been stricter regulation on the venue that he was allowed access to that weapon in, he might be alive today.

Forgive me if I get exasperated by the hypothetical "well regulated militia" arguments, but this is why I feel badgered. People endlessly cut and paste NRA propaganda while people die for want of effective gun regulation.

So that's my response to why I favor effective regulation. To save lives.

[SteveM]

30. No, the point is that senseless legislation can come home to roost...

You mentioned the .22 (the one-time favorite Mafia assassination weapon due to the gun's cheapness and quietness when silenced). I only brought up the .223 (common in the AR-15 and the FULL-AUTO M-16) because this round is also rather cheap and much more suited to long-distance target shooting. Go to a rifle range and you will see many folks using AR-15s chambered for this round.

Legislation should address a real societal problem. No doubt there will be something cropping up after this unfortunate death; but is there a real societal problem from one kid using a FULL-AUTO weapon? No.

Since I don't belong to the NRA, I do not cut & paste their "propaganda." My (and other) arguments are my own, and if they comport with the NRA's arguments, then so be it.

If you google up the Center for Disease Control gun studies, you will see where "interventionist" gun policies (mostly gun-control legislation) have not been linked to any measurable reduction in "gun crimes" and gun accidents."

As a life-long lefty, I have seen the Democratic Party time and again propose national gun legislation aimed at addressing problems of crime and accidents -- and pay the price for it. The reason for this addictive behavior? The legislation is really a reflection of long-standing (at least since the 60s) animosity toward gun-owners for their alleged racism, sexism, and need to "cling" to power. The gun-control "movement" has been nothing more than a hateful culture war which has damaged the Democratic Party far more than gun owners. In fact, "gun rights" have only expanded (in the form of 40+ states which now have concealed carry laws) over the last 20 years. As with all forms of prohibition, the rationale is hatred and fear. Ganja, guns, gays, booze, abortion: it's all about fear and hatred of a perceived "other."

Thanks for the discussion.

[Tejas]

31. YES, it is benign compared to 99% of the hunting rounds COMMONLY used

Please, educate yourself before trying to authoritate. Did someone tell you that an AR-15 or AK-47 are more powerful and deadlier than a 30.06 hunting rifle? If they did, they lied to you.

UZI? Hope I'm not busting your bubble but you do know that the largest percentage of UZI's use the common 9mm Luger round, don't you? Other UZI's use 45acp, even though it has a slower velocity, but they are not as common as 9mm versions.

YES, those UZI's fire the same round as that lowly Taurus or Beretta,

The GUN doesn't make the bullet come out any faster,
doesn't go any farther,
doesn't hit any harder.

The gun just LOOKS DIFFERENT, and as such, scares the willies out of the Brady Bunch and causes people to run to their keyboards and scream bloody murder and call for an all-out GUN BAN.



Sorry to be terse with you, but using buzzwords like UZI and AR just doesn't cut it. It might work at a Chicago diner or a Canadian nail salon, but not here.

[gorfle]

33. Stricter?

An eight year was killed by an uzi this past weekend. If there had been stricter regulation on the venue that he was allowed access to that weapon in, he might be alive today.

Do you know what the current regulations are are to own and operate an UZI?

[gorfle]

34. Regulating the sales of assault weapons.

Until we prove that we can effectively regulate the sale and distribution of firearms, the purchase of assault weapons should be subject to particular scrutiny.

You seem to be singling out "assault weapons" for "particular scrutiny".

I am curious as to what sort of regulations and particular scrutiny you think should be in place for assault weapons compared to other weapons.

What sort of regulations do you think should apply to this weapon:



And how would those regulations be different than those applying to this weapon:



And why?

[benEzra]

9. I don't hunt. Neither do the vast majority of gun owners.

I shoot competitively and recreationally with "assault weapons", though.

Here's hoping the Obama administration learns a thing or two from Clinton's mistakes, and opposes new gun bans, though. We do NOT need another 1994 in 2010.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

3. More of the same shit...

... that I've been reading on all the gun forums. Even some of the Republican posters ridicule these knuckleheads praying for a SHTF scenario. The propaganda the NRA puts out is an insult to anybody that has a brain. It shows how stupid they think their members are.

[benEzra]

10. Everyone is worried about another "assault weapon" bait-and-switch.

Personally, I think that while Obama may not like the fact that "assault weapons" are so popular among U.S. gun owners, I think he's smart enough not to pull another 1994. Here's hoping.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

5. The AWB is in the party platform which doesn't help matters.

Hopefully with the Heller decision this stuff won't be an issue. I just don't understand why we give them ammo on these issues that don't affect public safety.

David

[spin]

6. If there is a fight over gun rights...

It will be over the types of weapons an individual can own, and if local communities or states have the right to restrict firearm ownership.

The Democrats, who should gain full control of two branches of our government, will probably push for the reinstatement of the Assault Weapons Ban. They may also try to preserve the right of cities like Chicago having very strict gun laws, the argument being that city life is different from rural live and strict gun control reduces crime in the big city. This of course, ignores the fact that Chicago is the murder capitol of the United States.
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/chicago.homicide.rate.2.847736.html

I base my feelings on comments Obama's wife made about guns in rural areas:

"And by the way, Michelle, my wife, she was traveling up, I think, in eastern Iowa, she was driving through this nice, beautiful area, going through all this farmland and hills and rivers and she said 'Boy, it's really pretty up here,' but she said, 'But you know, I can see why if I was living out here, I'd want a gun. Because, you know, 911 is going to take some time before somebody responds. You know what I mean? You know, it's like five miles between every house.'

"So the point is, though, we should be able to do that, and we should be able to enforce laws that keep guns off the streets in inner cities because some unscrupulous gun dealer is, you know, letting somebody load up a van with a bunch of cheap handguns or sawed-off shotguns and dumping them and selling them for a profit in the streets."
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/11/obama_my_wife_sees_need_for_ru.html

But in view of the recent SCOTUS in District of Columbia v. Heller, I believe that the NRA is using scare tactics that are not realistic or based in fact. People will be allowed to own firearms for self defense, even in the big cities like Chicago. It's likely they will be able to own common handguns including semi-auto handguns. The magazine capacity of these weapons may be subject to federal, state or local laws and if the AWB passes again, some common semi-auto weapons may be outlawed.

I also predict that the subject of licensed concealed carry of weapons will be left to the individual states.

So, all in all, little will change but the gun issue will continue to be used by right wing organizations and the NRA to hurt Democrats in future elections. It's my personal belief that the party should ignore the issue and concentrate on improving the economy, solving the heath care issue, and getting the country out of the mess the Republicans have created.

But if the Democrats want to reduce violent crime in the big cities, they might adopt the surprising successful approach used by Baltimore.

Despite an increased emphasis on seizing illegal firearms, Baltimore police have taken about 25 percent fewer guns off the street this year and are making fewer gun arrests.

City law enforcement officials said they were unsure how to account for the decline, which has police on pace to recover far fewer illegal guns than in previous years, but were in agreement that it's probably not because there are significantly fewer guns on the streets. Instead, they said it is more likely that criminals are getting the message not to carry guns in public, which could be a factor in this year's drops in homicides and nonfatal shootings.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-md.ci.guns04oct04,0,7081652.story

It would seem that targeting criminals with illegal guns works better than targeting the types of firearms honest citizens own.

[Hangingon]

13. I am having trouble with this.

What is the difference between a city dweller and someone in a rural area? What is an urban area? What is a rural area?

I have lived in Dallas, Ft. Worth, Seattle, and the Washington DC metro area. I can tell you 911 is no answer. The old saw that "when seconds count, the police are minutes away" is true. They are not responsible for the protection of the citizen - according to the Supreme Court. I don't care that so many police cars bear the legend "To Protect and Serve". They may mean well but they don't and can't deliver.

I am also beginning to hear that hunters will be protected. Great! But that seems to be connected to rural dwellers. So it will be great if it the law that will be written finds my area is rural. I now live in a village of about 9,000.

I hunt dove and quail but I do not hunt deer. I do shoot in pistol and rifle target competion and organizd skeet leagues. If I still lived in a large metropolitan area will that count? Will my guns be safe? I have no faith that they will.

I have no criminal record. I have held high level security clearances and filed financial disclosure statements for several years, so my life is pretty well on record. I have a Concealed Handgun License (CHL) so I have been investigated for my suitability to keep and carry a weapon. I have no criminal record. Will the law that will be written consider this? I have no faith that it will.

I own a simple semi-automatic .22 with 15 round tubular magazine. Will the law that will be written make it illegal? Joe Biden said there would be trouble if they tried to take his Beretta. Great. Is it an expensive over and under or is it like my semi-auto skeet gun? I'll bet his is the more expensive over and under and mine will be listed on the prohibited list of the law that will be written.

I have no faith!

[spin]

14. It should not matter if you live in a rural or urban environment...

your rights to defend yourself should be the same.

I, like you, have lived in both large cities and rural areas. I also have a clean record and I held a security clearance for 42 years (until I retired) and have a concealed carry permit. While I was never a competitive shooter or a hunter, I loved informal target shooting at several pistol ranges and found the sport and the interaction with the other shooters a great hobby. You and I are similar in many ways. We and the types of weapons we own are not a problem.

I agree that you can't depend on the police to save you when the shit hits the fan. Police are reactive not proactive. They often arrive in time only to document and investigate the crime scene.

Hopefully, the recent SCOTUS decision will allow citizens in the big crime ridden cities with strict gun control to own firearms for self defense. I predict that if this happens, the nature of crime in those cities will change. There will be fewer home invasions and consequently fewer homicides. The criminal element fears armed citizens more than police for good reason.

But in order to look like they are trying to battle violent crime, I predict the Democrats will cling to the failed policies such as the AWB they promoted in the past. Old habits are hard to break.

Where I live now in rural northern Florida, the campaign staff of the Democratic candidate running for state representative called me and said, "Make sure you vote for Leonard Bembry as he supports gun rights and we need people like him in office to protect our Second Amendment rights". That's the message we as Democratic gun owners need to send to our party. Many Democrats are pro-gun as it makes sense and the facts and statistics show gun ownership by good citizens helps to reduce violent crime.

Gun control should be focused on taking weapons from criminals, not honest law abiding citizens. We can do this by merely enforcing the laws we currently have today. And if the criminal element finds that carrying weapons is a bad idea, violent crime will decrease. If violent crime decreases, fewer honest citizens will feel the need to buy firearms for self defense. The result is gun control that actually works.

Unfortunately the base support for the Democratic Party exists in the large cities, most with very restrictive gun laws and very little knowledge of the many good people who own guns both for hunting and self defense. We face a daunting task to convince the people of these cities that we are not ignorant racist rednecks who love pickup trucks and fondle firearms and salivate as we watch the idiotic, unrealistic and violent films produced in Hollywood.

[Hangingon]

15. I agree with.

Still, I look at the party platform and the views of many (most?) on this and like boards and worry. Australia is mostly urban and look what happened there.

[spin]

16. Very true...

Let us just hope that the number of gun owning Democrats have grown enough to influence the party leaders to avoid draconian gun laws.

If the party continues to push for gun control and the economy is still hurting two years from now, the gun issue many again be a deciding factor in the mid term election. Whatever gains made in Democratic Congressional seats during this election cycle may be lost.

Ad I don't predict a quick recovery from our economic problems. While recessions are a common part of the business cycle and are serious, this crisis has grown to gigantic proportion because of the fear tactics used to push through the passage of the massive bailout bill. The enormous amount of money required will probably limit the programs promised by either McCain and Obama.

If Obama is elected, and I feel he will be, many people will look at his record four years down the line. If he was unable to deliver on his promises or the economy still hasn't recovered, he may prove to be another one term Democratic President. If he has succeeded in pushing through measures such as a reinstatement of the AWB, he will have alienated many gun owners who voted or him in this election. I believe that Obama will win this election because he promises change. If he is unable to deliver, his excuses will sound hollow. God forbid, Sarah Palin might actually have a good chance in the 2012 election. She would attract the voters angry at any gun control measures such as an AWB if passed by Obama and the Democratic Congress.

The economic problems we face were caused by both Republicans and Democrats who failed to take the early signs the problems seriously. Perhaps two years ago the Republican leadership realistically appraised their chances in the upcoming election and hoped that the market collapse would happen on the next President's watch. If so, they misjudged by a few months. Of course, a lot of the blame has to be shouldered by the greed of Wall Street and company executives.

But the Democratic Party has been relatively quiet on gun control for the last few years. Consequently it hasn't been a big issue for this election even though the Republican's have used a fear campaign to scare gun owners. But if the Democrats do push for gun control, this issue will be used by the Republicans in the upcoming election cycles.

Like you I worry that some of the firearms I own or may want to buy in the future may be restricted or even outlawed. I am fairly certain that citizens will still be allowed to own firearms in most if not all areas of the country, but I predict some restrictions.

Obama and Biden are very liberal Senators. Gun control is important to the very liberal faction of the Democratic Party. Here on DU, serious gun control discussions are relegated to to the Gungeon so as not to disturb the majority of the members. It's hard for the pro-gun message to be heard and considered even though it's an important issue to many voters.

I believe that it is time to take control of this country from the Republicans who favor the big corporations over the average citizen. The middle class is being punished for the benefit of these big multinational companies. We are becoming a country of the corporations, for the corporations and by the corporations. I have great hope that Obama and Democratic control of both the House and the Senate will change the direction this country has headed for the last eight years.

After all, the preamble to the Constitution said "We the people", not we the Corporations. And the Democratic Party would also be wise to note that the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights stated "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed".

[aikoaiko]

7. The Taurus 4510 TKR is called the Judge. Ironically, its not very effective with .410

Box of truth has a nice demonstration of its limitations.


===

Hopefully Obama will be politically expedient enough to keep all federal gun bans off his desk.

[Redneck Socialist]

12. Your colleague is a fucking lunatic

Look, from a gun rights perspective Obama's record isn't good and if guns is your only issue you'd be better off voting for Bob Barr, but even Obama's worst gun grabbing tendencies have to go through congress and many of the Dems we elected back in '06 are pro gun. Significant anti-gun legislation has very little chance of passing. It's a non-issue. I doubt very much that Obama is going to expend much political capital on guns when we have so many other far more pressing issues to worry about.

Also consider the source. The ISRA is no friend to Dems.

[Tejas]

21. I tend to agree, Obama

is not the problem. If he could just get Biden to shut up and quit bragging about the '94 AWB then we might get somewhere.

Biden seems to want to be President too bad, and it shows.