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A Beginning, and Not an End, to the 2nd Amendment Discussion among Democrats

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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-08 08:46 PM
Original message
A Beginning, and Not an End, to the 2nd Amendment Discussion among Democrats
2008: A Beginning, and Not an End, to the 2nd Amendment Discussion among Democrats in the 21st Century

I am proud that we Americans have elected Barack Obama as the 44th President of the United States. I believe that his presidency is historic not only because he is the first African American president, but also due to the unique skills and background that he brings to bear on our numerous economic and political crises of the day. His stated positions on many concerns will clearly move us forward: from tax policy to healthcare to stewarding the environment, from race relations to foreign policy and jobs creation at home, Barack Obama earned my vote and enthusiasm and dollars and volunteerism by calmly presenting hopeful and clear-headed solutions for our nation.

Once I decided that Obama was the one for this election and this time in history, I did my darndest to see that he won at least my small corner of a very purplish (and safely red at the presidential level for the past few decades) state (North Carolina). I posted at DU in his favor, sent a small cash donation to the campaign, and spent a Saturday knocking on doors on behalf of Obama and regional Democrats. I know that one day of canvassing is small potatoes compared to what many DU’ers gave to this year's campaign, but it is what I could manage while keeping up both a small farm and full-time day job, and I am proud of my bit-part in this historic victory. The other small effort that I made for Barack Obama was a bumper sticker on my car: fortunately I was able to express exactly my own (hopeful, yet slightly ironic) sentiment thanks to a fellow DU’er: tmfun sent me a sticker on his dime that said “Bitter White Blue-Collar Gun Owner for Obama.” And that’s pretty much right. For while I try not to be constantly bitter (about the recent direction of this country, prospects for the future, etc), and it is perhaps arguable that I am truly blue collar (there are calluses on my hands from the farm work, but the farm is only possible thanks to my more cerebral day job), I am most definitely a gun owner, and a supporter of the whole Bill of Rights.

Obama’s election makes me hopeful about the prospects for we Americans reinvigorating our rights in general. The man has not only studied, but taught Constitutional Law, and he clung to many core American libertarian principles throughout the campaign at times when it might have been easier to go along with the Bush/Rumsfeld/Yoo consensus. His statements lead me to believe that we will curb the practices of torture, warrantless search, and suppression of speech that had flourished under the B*sh administration, beginning January 20, 2009 and onward. I look forward to this.

However, some DU’ers, and apparently also www.change.gov have said that Obama will be pursuing and supporting a past-failed and still-unconstitutional Democratic policy: further restrictions on the 2nd Amendment rights of Americans. For make no mistake, a renewed ‘assault weapons ban’ (hereafter AWB) and/or a closing of the ‘gun show loophole’ at the Federal level (both phrases in quotes as they are in themselves politically loaded and biased terms) are abrogations of our Constitutional rights. All-gun policy discussions and crime statistics aside, the fact of the matter is that most Americans (excepting Californians, New Yorkers, Illinoisans, Marylanders, and a few others) presently have the ability to easily purchase military-grade and high-capacity rifles, and under a new AWB, we would not.

I am opening this thread to state emphatically that my vote for Obama (and, I would wager, the votes of thousands of my neighbors and freedom-loving American compatriots across the country) was not a vote for Obama’s (nor the Democratic Party’s) past policy on firearms. Before the election, many of us here at DU expressed a historically-grounded and logically complete argument as to why the AWB is a failed policy, and why there is really no such thing a as gun show ‘loophole,’ but even the most ardent of us Democratic 2nd Amendment Supporters agreed that other issues trumped guns at this time in history. After eight years of B*sh assaults on Constitutional liberties (including ironically a horrendously unconstitutional confiscation of private firearms during the Federalized ‘response’ to Katrina in 2005), we agreed to get Obama elected, THEN revisit the 2nd Amendment stance within our party. For me, part of this willingness to briefly subordinate the Right to Keep and Bear Arms and vote the way I did was due to Obama’s geographic roots: as a Chicago politician it would have been political suicide for him to take any other stance on arms than he did. But now Obama is about to be inaugurated president of the whole United States, and what worked as campaign pander in Chicago is not at all what the Constitution calls for. Obama must subsume his past statements under his soon-to-be-taken oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Our Constitution was written by brave and visionary men as one of the best-enduring and truly comprehensive frameworks for liberty. Among the rights outlined by our Founding Fathers, the keeping an bearing of weapons suitable for militia use was one of the earliest and most emphatically outlined. Exactly how this right should be applied to the modern day is certainly a topic worthy of debate within the Democratic Party. I am willing to listen to arguments from Obama and any others who may want to narrow the interpretation of the Second Amendment,. Similarly, I will keep an open ear to such libertarian Democrats as might argue that the Constitutional definition of ‘arms’ as should include fully-automatic light machine guns, rocket propelled grenades, and other shoulder-deployed armaments. But my baseline stance is that the present reality of the hundreds of gun-control laws on the books already, coupled with a general right to bear arms as has been most recently upheld in the Heller Supreme Court decision, is a reasonable compromise, and that we should only depart from this middle ground with caution, and when supported by good historical evidence that the change does not violate our national principles, and empirical evidence that the change will also produce a greater public welfare than the costs it imposes upon our liberties.

In short, I am a southern, pro-Constitution Democrat, and I believe in expanding and defending my rights during the upcoming years. I share such views with prominent and successful nearby Senators as Jim Webb, and also with many more anonymous Democrats even closer to home. Just yesterday, I was talking with my town’s (Dem) Mayor about the wonderful electoral success we have had this November 4, and how hopeful we both are about the changes that are to come. She joked that one almost had to be accustomed to losing over the past fifteen years or so. In fact, she told me, she had been county Democratic chair back in the early ‘90’s, and of course therefore witnessed one of the worst recent setbacks to the Party in 1994. She expressed the hope that progress on jobs, the environment, healthcare, and transportation could really pick up steam now, and that the 2010 election would be more successful than the analogous 1994 election (i.e.- the first Congressional election after a Dem presidential victory), and I agreed. When I posited that Democrats had hopefully learned from the mistake of the past Assault Weapons Ban, and would no longer attempt to further restrict the Second Amendment, thus preserving the coalition that we had built here in the south, she heartily agreed. And I felt glad that I could rationally discuss such issues with someone as intelligent, cosmopolitan, and thoroughly Democratic as she, and that we shared some common ground. I assert that my views on the Second Amendment are both mainstream and thoroughly Democratic.

For all these reasons and more, I am hopeful for the Democratic Party. To any DU’ers who wish to argue for the reduction of our Second Amendment rights in the coming years, I say that our Party’s recent electoral victory is in no way a vindication of your perspective. Rather, we Democrats chose to collectively put forward our hopes for better relations among the races, more enlightened justice policies, fairer economic principles, and a more intelligent and peaceable foreign policy at the forefront, and elected Barack Obama our president for these reasons.

If anyone wishes to argue here at DU that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms needs to be narrowed, feel free to do so. However, in order to achieve any measure of success, you will need to counter the cogent and historically-grounded rationales of a majority of DU, especially those views expressed by gorfle, guntard, Fire_Medic_Dave, benEzra, beevul, Nabeshin, viginia mountainman, tmfun, jody, derby378, aikoaiko, krispos42 (to name a few cogent Constitutionalists) and many others (perhaps including, to a small extent, myself). There is something of a Second-Amendment-think-tank here in DU’s Gungeon, and the results of the debate that has raged here during recent years clearly highlights a pro-RKBA future for the Democratic Party, I believe.

-app











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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. I hate guns and I wish they'd all go away.
But I understand politics and ramifications, so I'll choose my battles carefully and prioritize them as needed.

Media reform
Equal rights
An end to war
Economic justice
Election reform

Not necessarily in that order. If we can get the first one, the rest will probably follow.
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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. This prioritization facilitates the present Dem coalition/majority
I am fond of collecting guns and target-shooting with them, but I chose to prioritize
Media reform
Equal rights
An end to war
Economic justice and
Election reform
as well in casting my vote this year. Our agreement about such, and a willingness to work on these issues until they are resolved will energize the Democratic Party for years to come.

Meanwhile, perhaps you and I can agree to leave gun control laws as they are at present. Putting this issue aside for the moment (even if we may disagree later) helps us forge ahead on the important issues you outlined. Peace,

-app
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-08 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Excuse me for not being up on this, but...
What does "Media Reform" deal with?
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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. my interpretation of Media Reform
My interpretation of tblue's top priority of Media Reform is a reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine on broadcast media, a breakup of media monopolies that dominate many regional markets, and real progress on public access for citizens, coupled with an increase in the rates that the corporate behemoths pay for the parts of the spectrum they hog-up.

-app
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-08 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. I have just read on another post that the "new AWB" has been dropped
by the Obama administration. I am very gratified at the number of people on this forum who have come out in favor of a sane, reaasonalbe gun policy for the USA, and I am happy to feel I made a small contribution to this end. I believe we are going in the right direction, and have brought some welcome change to the Party. Democrats are finally in a position of positive growth and I welcome any change to the Party position that will allow more people to feel comfortable with us.
Let the GOP continue to be the party of exclusion - that policy on their part has served us well.

mark
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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-11-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Glad to be a part of this discussion with you old mark
Together we are building a cohesive and new pro-liberty / pro-Democratic consensus.

-app
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Howzit Donating Member (918 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-08 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. You mean, references to the AWB have been deleted from a website
Not the same thing as dropping the policy.

Lets hope it is replaced by a clear policy statement.
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-08 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. Almost too good to be true
As a scientist, I'm not too impressed by "negative results". In other words the fact that is not there could be simply a clerical error. Got any more support or info on having the anti-gun attitude dropped from the platform?
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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-08 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. the 'negative results' are supported by the Constitution
The Second Amendment of the US Constitution (i.e.- the Supreme Law of the Land) states that "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." The present workable compromise of interpreting this as a broad protection of sub-.50 sized rifles, pistols, and the like; but not machine guns, explosives or crew-served weapons is a widely-acceptable interpretation of this right. A new Assault Weapons Ban would be an intolerable erosion of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA).

The point of my OP was to state that the coalition that elected Barack Obama and the new Congressional Democratic majorities includes many pro-RKBA Democrats (especially in my region of the southern Appalachians). We chose to vote Democratic despite some past serious flaws in the official Democratic stance on RKBA. I contend that Democrats not only need us in the party fold, but that the party is also richer and more seamlessly pro-Constitution when it acknowledges our reasoned arguments. Therefore, a website stating that a new AWB would be part of Obama's agenda was cause for serious concern.

'Clerical error' or otherwise, it's nice to see discussion of a new AWB off of change.gov. There are many more pressing issues that need immediate attention. The Democratic coalition that tackles economic reform, ecological sustainability, health care progress, and more will be all the stronger if it does not chase-out its pro-RKBA constituency.

-app
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I agree
What better time to push the gun extremists, both on the left and the right out of both the Democratic and Republican folds and move forward with things that are actually important? After ruminating for a while out there a certain portion may rethink their unreasonable fear/love of guns as an important single issue and want to come back and be part of what's getting done. Screw the ones that are left. Let them form their own minor party and see how much single-issue politics will do for them.

For now, I'm still not impressed by negative results, however. The Second Amendment has not changed in two hundred years. What I'm looking for is evidence that the party platform has indeed changed.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Re "unreasonable fear/love of guns" depends upon what is the definition of "unreasonable.
IMO it's not unreasonable to DEMAND:
- that the AWB not be renewed,
- that current laws prohibiting use of firearms while committing a crime be enforced 100% of the time,
- that convicted felons be required to serve sentences for possessing a firearm consecutively with every other sentence and not concurrently,
- that all law-abiding citizens in the U.S. be allowed to carry a concealed firearm for self-defense after proper training.

Those are just a few "reasonable laws" I will fight for because what works in Cheyenne with a homicide rate about 3.5/100k will also work in Chicago with its rate about 15.5/100k and D.C. with its rate about 29/100k. At least potential victims of violent crime will have the pro-choice option to keep and bear arms, if they wish, giving them a fighting chance against criminals.

I don't accept any ambiguous statement by any politician preaching "common-sense gun control laws" when they get to define what is a "common-sense gun control law".

IMO that's more political BS to win votes while intending to support more gun-control laws than we already have on the books.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-12-08 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. Remember, if Obama pushes draconian gun laws...
in his first administration, he may face a pro-gun candidate like Sarah Palin.

If he is unable to deliver on campaign promises like a health care program because of the economic mess the Republicans left behind, he might face a tight election for his second term. Gun owners may decide to vote Republican. Quite possibly their votes will cause Obama to lose. It has happened in the past. We need to learn from history.

Bill Clinton believes that advocating gun control cost Democrats 20 of the 52 House seats they lost in the 1994 elections, which ended 40 years of Democratic control of the House. And appearing June 23 on "The Charlie Rose Show," he said this about the defeat of Al Gore in 2000:

"The NRA beat him in Arkansas. The NRA and Ralph Nader stand right behind the Supreme Court in their ability to claim that they put George Bush in the White House. . . . If I had known how big the NRA problem was, could I have gone down there and spent three days calling people on the phone and hollering people in and talking to them and turned it? Probably. . . . I think the NRA had enough votes in New Hampshire, in Arkansas, maybe in Tennessee and in Missouri, to beat us. And they nearly whipped us in two or three other places."

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will101404.asp
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