It's back!!! Well- that was short-lived. Obama still supporting a permanent AWB

[jmg257]

"...They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent."
http://www.change.gov/agenda/urbanpolicy_agenda

anti-gun idiocy...driving up gun sales everywhere.

Get 'em while you can!

:puke:

[amdezurik]

1. you might give all of it...

Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

I bet it is the first part most of them are worried about. And this is hardly confiscation or banning of all guns. Panic if that is what you do best I guess...

[jmg257]

6. I might, if I was worried about given LE trace data - I' m not. The last part however, about

government usurption of power, always worries me. No panic involved, it is nothing new, just hoped he/they would have changed their tune.

[Testament]

20. You do understand that that is not a correct summary of the Tiahrt Amendment, correct?

"no funds appropriated under this or any other Act with respect to any fiscal year may be used
to disclose part or all of the contents of the Firearms Trace System database maintained by the
National Trace Center of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives or any
information required to be kept by licensees pursuant to section 923(g) of title 18, United States
Code, or required to be reported pursuant to paragraphs (3) and (7) of such section 923(g), to
anyone other than a Federal, State, or local law enforcement agency or a prosecutor solely in
connection with and for use in a bona fide criminal investigation or prosecution and then only such
information as pertains to the geographic jurisdiction of the law enforcement agency requesting the
disclosure and not for use in any civil action or proceeding other than an action or proceeding
commenced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or a review of such an
action or proceeding, to enforce the provisions of chapter 44 of such title, and all such data shall be
immune from legal process and shall not be subject to subpoena or other discovery, shall be
inadmissible in evidence, and shall not be used, relied on, or disclosed in any manner, nor shall
testimony or other evidence be permitted based upon such data, in any civil action pending on or
filed after the effective date of this Act in any State (including the District of Columbia) or Federal
court or in any administrative proceeding other than a proceeding commenced by the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to enforce the provisions of that chapter, or a review of
such an action or proceeding"

http://www.protectpolice.org/docs/tiahrt_amendment.pdf

BOTH the FOP and the ATF support the Tiahrt Amendment

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ks04_tiahrt/2007/MAIGResponse.html

So this crap about it hurting law enforcement efforts is a flat out lie and discredits anyone who uses it.

So many people get suckered into supporting gun control because they do not know the current laws or what they do.

------

AWB stuff:

The AR-15 in my opinion, is the most convenient, versatile, and diverse system for anything that you would lawfully do with a rifle. Doesn't matter if it's hunting, self defense, competition, fun, whatever. You have many many different calibers, accessories, and everything about the system can be worked on by the owner with some tools and know how. Want to protect your home incase of invasion while you sleep? Slap a 16" upper with a light and an Aimpoint in your choice of caliber. Then you need to wake up and take care of a rat problem in your barn that the cats aren't doing? Slap on a .22 upper or a conversion kit and get to it. Need to take care of some ground hogs in the area? Slap on a .204 Ruger upper with a 6-24x scope. Need some steaks but don't want to buy processed meat from cows in unknown conditions? Slap on a 6mm+ upper on it and hunt with the thing. Up in the mountains and have a problem with bears in the area? Carry one with a .50 Beowulf upper on it. Want to compete in 3gun? Put a JP upper on it with his ACOG/Jpoint optic and his tank brake.

Summary:
You can participate in just about any centerfire rifle competition with an AR-15 with the right setup.
You can hunt any animal in North America with one with the right caliber upper for the job.
You can easily setup one for defense of your property.
They remain the most popular rifle in America for their versatility, accuracy, and reliability.

------

"Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals."

Youth Handgun Safety Act and GCA of '68 already on the books cover that, thanks for playing.

"They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof."

Laws inside a gun show are the exact same as those on the outside. There is not gun show loophole at all. There never has been. As for childproof...it's already illegal to leave a gun lying around so that a minor can use it unsupervised, and any disimprovements added to a gun in the name of child safety have been a failure. Children routinely are able to defeat packaging that adults have problems with. The only thing that any such "features" would do is make the gun harder to use which then renders it unsafe to operate and useless for any reasonable purpose.

----

As for your comment: "And this is hardly confiscation or banning of all guns."

As mentioned in the AWB section of my post, the ban covers guns that are in widespread circulation and are very popular to the millions of lawful owners. Also, there has been confiscation of such arms in the US by California. HR1022 would have even banned Olympic target pistols based on the "features" it decreed as evil. There is also no guarantee that a proposed ban wouldn't include confiscation which some Representatives and Senators have called for an introduced bills to do so in the past. If there's any kind of registration in there, this leads to closing the registration which then allows no more guns of that type to be in the market or sometimes no more transfers, and has lead to confiscation in this country and abroad.

[amdezurik]

23. tell that to Obama not me

none of that were MY words ya know. do you aim that poorly when shooting to?

[Testament]

24. You obviously support what he has otherwise you wouldn't have posted:

"I bet it is the first part most of them are worried about. And this is hardly confiscation or banning of all guns. Panic if that is what you do best I guess..."

which I did bring up in my post, so to say that none of those words mentioned were yours is just plain false. You didn't read the whole thing. Go back, and read the entire post. And my shooting skills are not topical to this.

[SteveM]

53. I wrote Obama just now to tell him not to pursue this gun-control agenda...

But I and others here will continue to respond to folks in this forum when they try to push an ill-thought out gun-control agenda; in fact, I see the primary focus of "Forums: Guns" as an on-going effort to persuade and convince other progressive Democrats that gun-control is a loser, both as policy and as good politics. In that regard, I think this forum has done quite well.

[SteveM]

52. Those aware of the highly predictable results of gun-control are not panicked...

just disappointed that the same behavior is repeated time & again with the hope of a different result.

[SteveM]

57. More on repeal of the Tiahrt Amendment...

As you may have read down-thread by now, the Tiahrt Amendment was written to safeguard citizens from government scrutiny of their records, requiring of the government warrants based on due cause. What the proponents of this amendment want is de-facto gun registration by another means -- only they call it a "tool" to solve gun crimes and fight illegal arms trade, or in some instances, that old stand-by: "research."

Incidentally, over the last 10+ years, accidental deaths of children by guns has been going steadily and markedly DOWN. In fact, the drop in accidents in this category has been more precipitous than those of any other category surveyed (such as burns, falls, drowning, etc.). Why pump out more laws when the firearms-owning public has been doing a good job with regards child safety? Government works best when it identifies a significant social problem and enacts legislation which directly lessens that problem with verifiable results.

[Buzz Clik]

2. Fuckin' asshole!!!! I want as much fire power as possible. No weapon should be unattainable.

[jmg257]

16. Now THAT'S a little nuts! Hmm ...a "weapon nut"? nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. I don't think you should call President Elect Obama an asshole.

[kaiden]

3. AWB? Average White Band? That's how old I am. Crap!

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. Play that funky music! nt

[RC]

19. Me too. I wish people would spell stuff out so we would have a clue

as to what they are whining about.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. Just like the gays whining about their civil rights in California, huh?

[SteveM]

54. I hear you. The nation benefitted more from the band than the ban (nt)

[sl8]

4. Thanks for the followup. n/t

[msongs]

7. bazookas for everyone, especially 8 year olds with criminally stupid parents nt

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. I would like a brace of GE Mini-guns.

Laser-sighted and joystick controlled, mounted on the roof of my car on a turret. Just the thing to clear those traffic jams.

[jmg257]

9. A nice Ma-Deuce would be cool too. An XM307 on my deck - for home defense! nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. If you are this ignorant on the subject, why post?

[SteveM]

55. The cat crept into the crypt, crapped, then crept out again (nt)

[bowens43]

10. Good!!!!

Obama , is working to make our country a better and safer place!!!!

[jmg257]

13. And I am all for that - as long as it is not at the cost of more of our freedom. nt

[Pavulon]

15. resale value up!

all that means. no bearing on reality beyond that

[cabluedem]

17. Resale value will be zip if they ban or force registration of assualt-weapons...

...that people own right at present.

P-E Obama is making a big mistake which may cost him the vote in 2012, IMO.

[Pavulon]

18. if real, it will hurt...

massive issue and would be a reversal of "no new taxes" proportions. Basic lie. Hopefully the people pulling strings really aren't that stupid. They could fix root cause but that would require work.

This, if real, is look good, feel good bullshit.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. They'll never do that.

[cabluedem]

36. Really? California and New York already did just that. Think again.

[bossy22]

38. New York????

i think you are mistaken....new york has no registration of so called AWB's, its law is an exact copy of the federal law


unless you are talking about NYC's law, in which you are also again mistaken since the NYC law was a true ban....a ban on possession with no grandfather registration whatsoever

[jmg257]

50. There was a registration AW ban proposed in NY recently - but it didn't pass. Thank God.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. You think they'll pass a national AWB that confiscates previously owned firearms.

[jody]

43. IMO they want to but we gun-owners will prevent that from happening. Sadly our party may lose

control of congress again as happened before.

Why would any president alienate 80+ million voters out of an electorate of 237 million?

[jeepnstein]

49. We have nobody to blame but ourselves...

if this happens and we lose control of the House and Senate. It happened before and I cannot believe that anyone would be fool enough to run the same play again.

Agendas driven by fear and emotion are stupid and wrong. And that, my friends, is exactly what all this anti-gun hysteria is, stupid and wrong.

[jmg257]

60. I would not be very surprised if there was a registration scheme.

Look for them to try anything to make a ban they believe in actually be "effective"; too much power corrupts - they might not feel vulnerable to an upheaval like last time.

[krispos42]

21. We can't make the country a better and safer place...

...by banning rifles with protruding pistol grips.


And we sure as hell can't do it if the Republicans are in power.

[slackmaster]

26. The expired federal AWB in no way made the country better or safer

Why do you think would bringing it back and making it permanent would accomplish that?

[hack89]

28. Just like the Patriot Act - safety over rights. nt

[bossy22]

31. exactly

[krispos42]

46. Not even that... the APPEARANCE of safety

Something to grandstand over.

[katandmoon]

11. Good, yet one more bright light shining at the end of the long dreary 8 year gun nut tunnel

[jmg257]

12. Yup - just when we thought govt intrusions into our rights was coming to an end. Just never know.

Of course, short sighted & ignorant bigots won't ever care to see it, till it is some freedom they care about at stake.

As if 8yrs Bush wasn't proof enough of what happens when we just don't care enough...so when will YOUR eyes be opened?

[krispos42]

22. The original ban drove up sales of semi-automatic rifles...

...and tossed Democrats out of Congress for 12 years.

We're OUT of the tunnel that useless, inflammatory bans on cosmetic features got us in to in the first place.


And I'd like to stay there.


If the Dems in Congress want to do something that causes them to get booted out in 2010 or 2012 I'd rather it was something like single-payer health care or drug legalization.

You know, things that would actually save and improve people's lives?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. More freedoms taken away so sniveling little people can think they are safer.

[SteveM]

56. Like to lose? Gotten used to it? (nt)

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bossy22]

25. i still dont think anything is going to happen

there is no political appetite to stomach a push for gun control

many of the freshman dems in the senate and house dont want to get into this fight

The AWB was an attempt to redefine gun ownership in america....it failed miserably and will not be seen for awhile

[slackmaster]

27. I am inclined to agree with bossy22 on this

But just in case, I will be buying some extra AR-15 lower receiver parts to go with the forged blanks and castings I bought back in the '90s. Maybe some punched AK receiver blanks and partly finished FAL receivers too.

I do sleep better at night knowing there is a milling machine in the garage.

[jody]

41. "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." (Mark 9:24) n/t

[jody]

29. Obama did not lie by promising to veto a bill to renew the AWB but people convinced themselves

he did not "support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent."

It saddens me to acknowledge pro-RKBA groups who warned that Obama would support renewing the AWB were correct.

Obama encouraged CA voters to vote "No" on Prop 8 banning same-sex marriage but also said he believes marriage is between a man and woman.

Exit polls asked the question “Are You Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual?” and 4% said “Yes”.

Of that subset of voters, 70% voted for Obama and 27% for McCain.

Exit polls also asked the question “Anyone in Household Own a Gun?” and 42% said “Yes”.

Of that subset of voters, 37% voted for Obama and 62% for McCain.

Some in the GLBT community believe they were betrayed but others might say they were just misled.

What will gun-owners believe?

[jody]

30. Reference DU's Guns-Fortress thread below about Ray Schoenke of AHSA.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x188822

"Ray also told me that whenever the Obama administration entertains talk of gun control, he'll be at the table, working to prevent another semi-auto ban from being enacted."

Looks like Ray was not at the table!

:mad: RAY PROBABLY WASN'T EVEN INVITED TO THE MEETING. :mad:

[gorfle]

37. Disturbing.

If assault weapon legislation is passed I will be voting Republican again next go around.

[WWFZD]

47. I agree.

"If assault weapon legislation is passed I will be voting Republican again next go around."

As I asserted in a previous post; Obama did not win the election by appealing to only the left.
I'm not a leftist or a rightwinger.
Reintroduce meaningless, mindless, feel good, do nothing legislation restricting my civil rights and I will work my ass off to bounce him, and all AWB supporters, out of office next go around.

[bossy22]

39. what bothers me also

is the repeal of the Tiarht amendment...it shows a knee-jerk response on the part of the future obama administration

[jody]

44. Obama has added "repeal the Tiahrt Amendment". For those new to DU's Guns-Fortress, the links below

provide opposing views.

In summary the Tiahrt Amendment prohibits the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives from releasing information from its firearms trace database to anyone other than a law enforcement agency or prosecutor in connection with a criminal investigation.

The "Tiahrt Amendment" on Firearms Traces: Protecting Gun Owners' Privacy and Law Enforcement Safety

Restrictions Imposed on the Release of Crime Gun Trace Data by the “Tiahrt Amendment” Are a Substantive Change in the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)

[guntard]

59. It also suggests alignment with the Republican mayor of NYC

[benEzra]

45. Damn, damn, damn. (n/t)

[jody]

48. Obama has taken a step toward confirming the allegation "Barack Obama would be the most anti-gun

president in history - bar none".

Obama has aligned himself with the Violence Policy Center, Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence, and arch gun-grabbers Dianne Feinstein, Ted Kennedy and Chuck Schumer, and the foundations that fund gun-grabber efforts like the Joyce Foundation and Annenberg Foundation.

To add insult to injury and fuel to the fire he starts his gun-control policy with "Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment".

IMO that will be taken by 80+ million gun-owners as an "in your face" affront and could help we Dems lose control of the House in 2010. :mad:

[57_TomCat]

51. Is this time for an "I told you so"...

It is early, let us see how it plays out.

[guntard]

58. Hard to say what will happen

Gun control has been a losing idea for a long time, everywhere except California (where the term-limited Legislature is out of control and widely reviled as The Worst Legislature Ever anyway).

The "gun show loophole," which would more accurately be characterized as the "First Amendment Loophole," since a gun show is nothing more than a place where gun buyers and sellers congregate, as protected by the First Amendment's freedom of association, with no other special legal status, can be easily dealt with by a legal requirement for FFLs to be involved in all firearm purchases, as we do here in California. This seems pretty lame on a national basis (I can think of few policies which are better left to the states), but it's an easy fix, should it come to that.

The problem with an "assault weapon ban" is it would be deeply unpopular nationally. Most of the states that want one already have one of some sort, though here in California we are learning just how unenforceable such legislation is. The AR-15 is already the single most popular rifle pattern in the US, and during the week following the election, national retail inventory of AR-15s was completely liquidated. By the end of last week, you simply could not buy one. .50 BMG rifles are doing a brisk business as well.

What many urban Americans regard as scary "assault weapons" - AR-15s, AK-47s, FN FALs, SKSes, etc - are in fact the recreational rifles of choice for many American gun owners, perhaps most of them. Urban politicians who want to ban these firearms are simply out of touch, and will probably be put straight when they start discussing the matter with their Congressional colleagues from districts with lots of gun owners. Since hardly anyone in Congress really gives a shit about gun control one way or the other, an "assault weapon" ban seems unlikely.

And now, as an example of how toothless California's "assault weapon" ban has become, here's an Arab with a perfectly legal "banned" AR-15 (plus a pair of more innocuous Chinese SKSes):



She just became a US citizen this summer and voted for Obama this month.