Has discussion of this been avoided here due to the racist views of the victim?

[friendly_iconoclast]

And yes, the politics of Randy and Vicky Weaver are quite repulsive to me. As is that of most of the sites currently discussing this.

Still, this is like getting the people who shot Fred Hampton and Jean Charles deMenezes to tout smooth actions and reliability for the manufacturers of handguns. Police misconduct is police misconduct no matter who the victim is. I hope this gets right-wing gun owners thinking about who their 'friends'
are, exactly.


http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/2008/11/hs-precision-gets-endorsement-by-lon.html

This should be enough to make every freedom loving American vomit. HS Precision, manufacturer of stocks and other parts for precsion rifles, is featuring an endorsement of their products by Lon Horiuchi on the back of their catalog. Here's a scan (click on the thumbnail for a full size image):

<>



For readers unfamiliar with Horiuchi, he is the FBI sniper who shot Vicki Weaver during the the standoff at Ruby Ridge 1992. He was also present at the 1993 Waco siege where he was again suspected of misconduct. He charged with manslaughter for Weaver's death but the charge was eventually dismissed in a Federal court, the basis for which was the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution. (Note that this ruling doesn't go to the merits of the case. In gun owner circles, he is regarded as a murderer.

As pointed out by Arfcommer "dedfella," this is akin to having a fertilizer company get an endorsement by Timothy McVeigh. Poor taste, putting it mildly.

[amdezurik]

1. that was a horrible incident

brought about solely by the actions of Randy Weaver. He choose to break the law and tried to pile his family around him to protect his own life rather then take his lumps. You can be dismissive of the charges but when someone defies court orders (without being a repuke VP anyway) cops will be sent after you, even into the woods.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

2. That's why the government paid him over 3 million dollars because it was all his fault.

You fail miserably. Learn what you are talking about before posting. Horiuchi should be in prison.

David

[friendly_iconoclast]

3. Even scumbags have civil rights

And why then did the Feds give a multi-million $ settlement to the Weaver's wrongful-death suit?
Whatever your view of Vicky Weaver, her death was caused by Lon Horiuchi for no good reason.

Look, I know that the Weavers were a pair of nutbar white supremacists, but the .gov was in the
wrong, and knew it (hence the large settlement).

[jody]

4. As others pointed out, you are woefully ignorant of the Weaver case. n/t

[hoplophile]

26. I read the book that Randy and Sarah wrote

on the incident. Granted that it was only their side of the events I found it to be very enlightening. If anyone is interested in finding out their side of things I would recommend it.

[Recursion]

12. Ruby Ridge was classic Bushco fascism at work

The number of ways the government was in the wrong on that case is stunning, and it's yet another example of how Bushes cannot be trusted with power.

[hoplophile]

27. While I cannot argue against your sentiments that incident was under Bill Clinton's

administration with Janet Reno allowing the FBI to change the rules of engagement. For some reason the Rules of Engagement were changed to dictate that ANY armed man to be shot on sight. Never before, and never since that time has the FBI used such rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

33. Wrong- happened in August 1992 under Bush the First

Do try to research these things, ok?

[hoplophile]

36. I stand corrected.

[akgirl]

15. Cops. Not Commandos in APCs.

"He choose to break the law "

Here is this guy who is pretty much dirt poor living in the boonies of Idaho. Along comes his pal, the undercover ATF agent. Undercover fed says "please make these illegal short barreled shotguns for me." Weaver initially refuses. Fed asks again. Weaver needs the money pretty bad, so he relents. Agent goes, buys some shotguns, gives them to Weaver, he asks the agent how short he wants them cut and chops them, all under the watchful eye of the undercover ATF agent. Two shotguns, cut just under legal limit. Pop.

Once they bag Weaver, they try to get him to snitch on the Aryan Nations dirtbags down the road (which is what they wanted in the first place). Essentially, setting him up, so he can be a government snitch, thus endangering his life, and his families lives when all the guy ever wanted was to be left alone. So, he tells them to get bent and goes an holes up at home.

Crazy. Maybe. But, here is this guy who believes the government is a bunch of jackbooted thugs out to do all the evil shit he claims and... what do they do? act like a bunch of jack-booted thugs, kill his kid, his wife.... essentially, proving the guy correct...

"cops will be sent after you, even into the woods."

Cops. Not commando units who murder your family, all because they want to make a point.

His politics aside, what they did to that family was wrong. Read "Them: Adventures with Extremists" by Jon Ronson. He does an excellent bit on the whole Ruby Ridge issue.

[liberalmuse]

5. Wasn't Vicki Weaver holding a baby in her arms when she was shot?

that was awful. There is no honor in making money by doing an ad because you gunned down a family. Jesus fucking Christ. WTF?

[Tejas]

7. Yes, would be close to 20 years old now

Wonder what HS would have to say if she contacted them?

[aikoaiko]

6. Thanks for posting this. I would have missed the signficance

[Tejas]

8. I've wondered if

if HS even knew about LH's past? The fact of whether or not they did should surface soon.

[pipoman]

9. Really...how could they not? Is the company ran by a 15 year old and started last year?

I have to think that HS doesn't depend on or care what the 'civilian' (term used loosely) thinks about this. Maybe they are trying to market strictly to government agencies.

[Tejas]

11. We'll see, stranger things have happened - nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

13. I have to agree, they must not care what we think.

Although I know many LEO at all levels who would like to have seen Horiuchi convicted for murder.

David

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. I noticed the NRA seal rather prominently on that catalog page

I wonder if they are going to return H-S Precision's donation? I guess it depends on how much heat
they get from their members, and to put it bluntly, how much it will cost them.

Let's see if their principled stand just happens to coincide with the location of their pocketbook.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

14. I think contacting their dealers and letting them know you won't be using them anymore...

Is probably the best way to turn up the heat.

David

[iverglas]

16. you see? there we go --

In gun owner circles, he is regarded as a murderer.

Who's doing the conflation here?

There are gun nuts, and there are gun owners. The sets intersect, but are not identical.

No one in this forum speaks for gun owners.

And a statement such as that one is hardly consistent with protests against the use of terms like "gun nuts".

I make no comment on the merits of the claims/arguments about the Ruby Ridge incident. I simply point out that it is quite unlikely that your statement about gun owners is accurate.

[raimius]

18. How nice

Attacking an author because they generalize about a group that may include themselves.
That would be like me attacking you for not representing Canadians, or Palin attacking others for not being American enough.

I am a gun owner. I am also on the more extreme end in my views about firearms laws. Does that mean I can't comment on the general opinions I observe in other gun owners? Perhaps I would not be very accurate (as my sample size is not likely to be representative of the varying opinions of some 80million Americans), but am I not allowed to make an observation? Are our fellow posters not allowed to make observations?

[iverglas]

19. well, I tell you what

Attacking an author because they generalize about a group that may include themselves.

Pointing out fallacious argument is not known as "attacking" where I come from. Not that I speak for everyone where I come from, of course ...

That would be like me attacking you for not representing Canadians, or Palin attacking others for not being American enough.

So how's about next time you hear me say something like, oh, I dunno, In Canadian circles, George Bush is known as a murderer, you call me out on it.

I hope you don't get too hot waiting for the freezing over.


Perhaps I would not be very accurate (as my sample size is not likely to be representative of the varying opinions of some 80million Americans), but am I not allowed to make an observation? Are our fellow posters not allowed to make observations?

Were you operating under some delusion that I am in charge of what you are allowed to say?

How's about this one: am I not allowed to express my own opinion about the things that are said here?

Oh oh. We seem to be in an endless loop here ...

I wonder whether it would work if we all just said what we think, and what we think about what others say, and not bother trying to tell anybody what they are allowed to say, or accusing anybody of telling anybody else what they are not allowed to say, when nobody did any such thing.

If you disagree with what I said in the post you replied to, feel free to say so, 'k?

Just like I felt free to say I disagreed with what was said in the post I replied to.

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. The circumstances of Ruby Ridge preclude discussion for some

On one hand, we have an unarmed woman holding a baby deliberately shot to death by a law enforcement officer.

On the other hand, the woman was a virulent racist and the law enforcement officer is a person of color.
And Ruby Ridge was one of Timothy McVeigh's stated grievances. Too many shades of gray for the
ideologically hidebound mind to handle.

So, some simply cannot comment on the facts due to the cognitive dissonance caused by the
politics and racial makeup of the various protagonists. Some victims are more equal than others,
it seems.

Will noting the innocent (in the legal sense) woman was a victim of male gun violence give comfort
to "racists, misogynists, and right-wingers"? Perhaps.

Better to only talk around the issue, eh?

[jody]

22. Posted wrong place. n/t

[iverglas]

28. comment on the facts?

So, some simply cannot comment on the facts due to the cognitive dissonance caused by the politics and racial makeup of the various protagonists. Some victims are more equal than others, it seems.

The facts actually under discussion here are as set out in the opening post: the individual who shot someone in an incident that generates controversy is being used as an advertising spokesperson.

No comment from me on those facts. Cognitive dissonance? No. I assure you. Not giving a crap? You'd be getting warm.

[iverglas]

17. and another charming source hits the Guns forum

I get such a kick out of browsing the sources of opinion offered up here.

http://blogostuff.blogspot.com/search/label/politics

This blogger's reaction to the election of Barack Obama:

Wednesday, November 05, 2008
Post Election Thought

After watching the results last night this is the first thing that came to mind:

THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.

--Thomas Paine, Crisis In America I.

And then this:

(N)ever give in, never give in, never, never, never, never-in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.

--Sir Winston Churchill, October 29, 1941, Harrow School.

This pre-election post:

Monday, November 03, 2008
Obama Exposed
One last pre-election bump for my other blog, Obama Exposed. If you haven't checked it out in awhile please take a look.

McCain/Palin '08!

has a link to follow:

http://obama-exposed.blogspot.com/

Obama Exposed

Not all change is good.

Yet again, if I found myself agreeing with views from that source -- if I found myself even READING that source -- I'd be pinching myself.


html fixed

[friendly_iconoclast]

21. If I reiterate that Blogostuff is repulsive to me....

like the other sites mentioned (along with Vicky Weaver's politics)...will you discuss the OP?

Apparently, some female victims of gun violence are more equal than others.

[iverglas]

30. and again

The OP is about a gun manufacturer's choice of spokesperson / endorser.

Now ask me whether I care.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

31. So you are here commenting because you have absolutely no interest in this discussion?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. I find nothing objectionable about the Thomas Paine and Winston Churchill quotes.

[jody]

23. You raise a valid question. Reminder DU's rule “you have the option of putting that person on your

ignore list. Just click the ignore icon on one of their posts”.

[iverglas]

29. nah, I think you posted it in the "right" place, jody

It actually makes not a stitch of sense as a reply to the opening post. Not a stitch.

Where you first posted it, though, it made perfect sense as a comment on my post that you claim not to have read. I wonder; was sense finally seen and you figured there was no point in just posting something else that would be deleted as a rule violation?

Better to make absolutely no sense at all, I guess. Not for me to say, in any event.

[hoplophile]

25. I sent H S an e-mail about this

and have yet to hear anything back from them. They seem to be ignoring the whole thing hoping it will blow over. I'm glad I chose a McMillan stock for my long range rifle.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. What is their e-mail address?

[hoplophile]

34. click here

http://www.hsprecision.com/

then scroll down to the bottom of the page and click "e-mail".

I have not herd back from them nor has anyone else that has contacted them. People are contacting their distributors now to express their outrage and displeasure.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. Thanks.