Is Hawaii the bellwether state for banning concealed weapons?

[Howzit]

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2009/bills/SB126_.HTM

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF HAWAII:

SECTION 1. Chapter 134, Hawaii Revised Statutes, is amended by adding a new section to part III to be appropriately designated and to read as follows:

"§134‑ Pocket knives; sale prohibited; penalty. Any person who knowingly manufactures, sells, transfers, possesses, or transports a pocket knife in the State shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

As used in this section:

"Pocket knife" means a knife with a blade that folds into the handle and which is suitable for carrying in the pocket."

SECTION 2. Upon the effective date of this Act, no person shall import or manufacture pocket knives into the State for the purpose of selling or distributing pocket knives.



How many times does one have to repeat this? It is not the tool that matters, but the motivation of the person using or carrying it that may make them dangerous to others.

[iverglas]

1. can you find us the FBI stats

on the number of people killed in recent years by someone armed with a motivation?

[Howzit]

2. All of them!

[iverglas]

3. as expected

Never disappointed.


and adding:

You've heard the mantra, I assume: means, motive and opportunity.

Kinda suggests they're different things ...

[Howzit]

15. "means, motive and opportunity"

An nothing bad happens until you have all three.

To assume that the magic ingredient in crime is the means, is to assume that everyone is a crook, if only they could get away with it - a huge insult.

The fact that there are so many guns and knives in our homes without everyone already having been being killed suggests that most folks are trustworthy and the tools used in crime are less significant than motivation.

The way I see it; those that have an automatic mistrust of the people are themselves not to be trusted.

[iverglas]

20. who dunnit???

To assume that the magic ingredient in crime is the means, is to assume that everyone is a crook, if only they could get away with it - a huge insult.

It would also be hugely stupid.

Can you tell us who dunnit??

There's only one insult I'm seeing here, and it's the one you're offering to my intelligence.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

10. Usually her questions are harder to answer than that, that one was obvious, she must be slipping.

[benEzra]

35. Well, twice as many were murdered with fists and feet

as with all rifles combined (including "assault weapons"). Unless you're proposing to surgically remove people's hands and feet, that would fall into the "motivation plus nothing extra" category.

[iverglas]

38. and yet nobody was murdered with a motivation

And the fixation on murder continues unabated ...

[benEzra]

41. When you see a disembodied motivation floating around, let me know.

and yet nobody was murdered with a motivation

When you see a disembodied motivation floating around, let me know. All those I am aware of are corporeal, and come equipped with fists and feet at minimum.

And the fixation on murder continues unabated ...

Well, given that the overarching topic here is FIREARMS, murder and attempted murder are, yes, the primary concerns. Armed robbery, rape, etc. are also concerns, but the threat made to obtain compliance in those cases is still the threat of murder.

From what I've seen, securities fraud by firearm isn't all that common here in the 'States. Maybe in your country, but not here.

[iverglas]

42. have a word with Howzit, will ya?

I'm not the one yammering about disembodied motivations. Do try to follow the conversation.

Well, given that the overarching topic here is FIREARMS, murder and attempted murder are, yes, the primary concerns. Armed robbery, rape, etc. are also concerns, but the threat made to obtain compliance in those cases is still the threat of murder.

That's a clever little formulation, isn't it?

Rape is actually not much of a concern, except in the fevered imaginations of the fervent few.

Robbery is very much a concern -- as are just plain injury and intimidation.

Your clever formulation doesn't conceal the fact that citing homicide statistics fails to address improper uses of firearms that do not culminate in death.

[benEzra]

44. And yet, the normal distribution of firearms used in homicides...

tells us much about the breakdown of firearms involved in those crimes in which firearms play a lesser role. Homicide is the worst-case, not only in terms of severity, but in terms of firearms involvement.

Unless you don't grok statistics much...

[iverglas]

46. ya think?

And yet, the normal distribution of firearms used in homicides...
tells us much about the breakdown of firearms involved in those crimes in which firearms play a lesser role. Homicide is the worst-case, not only in terms of severity, but in terms of firearms involvement.

On what basis would you say that?

What basis do you have for saying that the distribution of firearms in homicides can be transposed onto firearms use in other criminal behaviour?

I don't see one, myself.

One thing we do want to keep in mind.

It's a rare homicide that isn't reported and included in crime statistics. I doubt that the same can be said of assaults and wounds and robberies.

I'm not saying it is or it ain't. I'm just saying you have no basis for citing homicide statistics as representative of the improper use of firearms, in terms of type of firearm.

[benEzra]

50. Ummm, yes, we sure as hell do.

I'm just saying you have no basis for citing homicide statistics as representative of the improper use of firearms, in terms of type of firearm.

Umm, yes, we sure as hell do. Statistics 101.

For starters, please familiarize yourself with the Central Limit Theorem, as one principle among many, but we can go from there.

Now, statistical sampling does assume random variation, whereas the circumstances determining whether or not a weapon used in a robbery results in a fatality include both random and nonrandom factors. For example, reasoning from first principles, a rifle or shotgun use in a robbery or assault will be somewhat more likely to end up in the homicide statistics than a handgun would, because rifles are more lethal on a per-shot basis; handguns will be more likely to end up in the stats than fists/feet; etc. Hence, the FBI homicide data will tend to exaggerate rifle and shotgun misuse relative to handgun misuse, because rifles and shotguns will be somewhat more likely to kill and somewhat less likely to merely wound, given identical shot placement.

Meaning, of course, that the true handgun/rifle/shotgun breakdown in non-homicide crimes of violence is going to be tilted even more heavily toward handguns than it is for homicides.

As the late gun-ban lobbyist Pete Shields observed, rifles and shotguns are not the problem. And they are even less of a problem now than they were when Shields made that observation.

[iverglas]

54. you keep right on denying

the FACT of the growing prevalence of, oh, AK-47ish things being USED by, oh, drug traffickers in the conduct of their criminal activities. (They really, really aren't acquiring them to use as hatracks or decor items.)

Doesn't change that FACT.

But damn, you really are fixated on homicide, aren't you? Either that, or obsessed with obfuscating ...

[tburnsten]

57. So why again are rifles used less and less often for crimes?

Or in your eyes is the crime of ownership as big a crime as the crime of murder? Focusing so much on what some nameless "drug dealers" own but don't apparently use for shooting people with (the only real measure of a firearm's abuse level) kind of shows that you don't really give a fuck about people being harmedor not, it's all about the guns for you isn't it? Male power symbols and all that.

[iverglas]

59. so what again is your basis for saying that?

You and your chum may want to engage in a discussion of a particular set of statistics relating to a particular set of reported offences. Can you point me to where I've ever framed any discussion I wish to engage in to suit that desire?


Or in your eyes is the crime of ownership as big a crime as the crime of murder?

I give up. In your eyes, is the earth flat and the sky filled with herring?

What, exactly, is the issue you believe you are addressing here?


Focusing so much on what some nameless "drug dealers" own but don't apparently use for shooting people with (the only real measure of a firearm's abuse level) kind of shows that you don't really give a fuck about people being harmedor not, it's all about the guns for you isn't it?

Actually, it's all about a society in which individuals are able to achieve success in their lives on their own terms to the extent possible.

Children (and other living beings) living in neighbourhoods afflicted by gang activity, which focuses on drug trafficking and both is made possible by access to firearms and results in firearms violence, are not able to do that -- whether they are drawn into gang activity or victims of it, or simply have their lives and choices constrained by growing up in the underdeveloped communities that result when violence is omnipresent.

Women living in households where they are under constant threat of violence from men with firearms are not able to do that.

Young people who kill themselves when they could have been helped to deal with their problems are not able to do that.

"Shooting people" IS NOT the only real measure of abuse of firearms. Crime facilitated by the presence of firearms, neighbourhoods destroyed by the presence of firearms, lives lived in despair because of the presence of firearms, are all measures of the abuse of firearms.

And you, my little chums, are the ones not giving a shit about those harms.


Male power symbols and all that.

"Power symbols"? I don't believe you've ever heard me say any such thing.

Instruments of power wielded by men, yes indeed.

[tburnsten]

61. Call it what you want, you are talking about it as a male power symbol

[iverglas]

63. I am not talking about ANY symbol

I am talking about firearms as three-dimensional objects with dimensions and mass. They are not symbols. They are objects.

I couldn't care less what such objects might symbolize to those who use them. My concern is the use made of them.

So you call your drivel what you want, and I'll call it no more than an argument ad locutorem, and a false statement made with knowledge of its falsity, to boot.

[tburnsten]

65. Then call them male power objects if it makes you happy

[iverglas]

68. no, you call them male power objects if itmakes you happy

You're the only one doing it, after all.

Me, I'll call them firearms. It's what they are.

[tburnsten]

69. Well you are making them out to be nothing more than male power objects

you're the only one doing it after all.

[jmg257]

74. "Actually, it's all about a society in which individuals are able to achieve success..". Excellent.

Very good points to think about, may be forgotten at times as we worry more about 'me & mine'.

[Irreverend IX]

94. "neighbourhoods destroyed by the presence of firearms"

You mean there are firearms whose mere presence will send waves of destruction capable of leveling entire subdivisions? Where can I get some of these things? Weapons technology in Canada must be incredible.

And seriously, I'd like to see some facts and figures supporting the idea that "AK-47ish things" are facilitating crime and destroying neighborhoods despite their extreme underrepresentation in actual crime statistics. And don't post a bunch of news stories that mention "AK-47s," because if the rate of a criminal activity was proportional to its representation in the media, the leading cause of death among children would be abduction and murder by pedophiles, because whenever that happens it's in the headlines for weeks.

[iverglas]

95. I reread my post

And -- quelle surprise!! -- I didn't say:

"AK-47ish things" are destroying neighborhoods

Oh well.

I'm going to have to practise so I can play this game too.

Person A: Lunch will be served at noon.
Person B: No, lunch will be served at 2 p.m.
Person A: It's 11:30 a.m. now.
Person B: No, it's 10 a.m.
Person C: Prove that lunch will be served at 11:30 a.m.


Tell me.

When a drug trafficker / importer / cultivator is apprehended in possession of a firearm, is that a crime committed "with" a firearm? Does it show up as such in the FBI statistics? Where would that be? Homicide by firearm, robbery with firearm, them we got; ... drug trafficking by firearm?

The firearm is just so irrelevant in that situation. Drug traffickers / importers / cultivators only buy them to hang above the mantel.

(Let's not get into the merits of drug prohibition. I'm against it. I also know that trafficking / importing / cultivating are carried on by violent organized criminal organizations, where we're both at, and that without firearms they'd be slightly hobbled in their efforts.)

[benEzra]

70. Keep "catapulting the hysteria"...

Doesn't change the fact that the "weapons of choice of criminals" are handguns, not small- and intermediate-caliber CIVILIAN rifles with handgrips that stick out, regardless of what said rifles look like. Nor the fact that they were no less legal and available in 1997 or 2003 as now, MSM hysteria to the contrary.

I have never said that rifles are never misused. But it is true that they account for a very small slice of weapons misuse, due to the fact that they are the least concealable of firearms.

[iverglas]

71. you are perfectly aware

the "weapons of choice of criminals" are handguns

that I am perfectly aware of that, and that in my own bailiwick I am quite happy that access to handguns is relatively restricted, and I would like to see it restricted further. That is what my focus would be if I were in a situation like yours. Fortunately, I'm not in your situation, because I would find it pretty intolerable.

The fact remains that Marc Lépine didn't use a handgun to kill 14 women in Montreal, and Kimveer Gill didn't use a handgun to kill another woman at another educational institution in Montreal (although he owned one).

Handguns are useful for committing stick-up street robberies. Semi-automatic rifles are useful for committing and facilitating other kinds of crimes.

I don't think that the criminals who seek to acquire them are stupid, and I don't think that the politicians (on the left of your own political spectrum) who seek to reduce access to them are stupid.

All you have is the repeated-ad-nauseam mantra that the firearms in question are "scary-looking" and that is the reason for the efforts to restrict access to them. You know it's not true, I know it's not true, the whole world knows it's not true. And repeating it ad nauseam just makes you and yours look silly. But it's your choice.

[benEzra]

73. The difference between a civilian AK and a Ruger Mini Thirty deer rifle are entirely looks.

There are no functional differences; they fire the same (relatively low-powered) ammunition at the same rate, with the same range of magazine capacities. Which is why the AWB keys in on cosmetic features like protruding handgrips and whether the muzzle is smooth or not, because they are functionally identical.

"(O)ur organization, Handgun Control, Inc. does not propose further controls on rifles and shotguns. Rifles and shotguns are not the problem; they are not concealable." ---Nelson "Pete" Shields, head of what is now the Brady Campaign 1978-1989, Guns Don't Die--People Do, pp. 47-48.

And rifle crime is lower now than it was when he wrote that in 1981.

Of course, to admit that would be to undermine your trusted-source heuristic, and admit that making outlawing protruding rifle handgrips a top legislative priority was a mistake. But your Anointed Ones at the Brady Campaign, the VPC, and the DLC don't make mistakes, hence...

I note with approval that the DLC-launched, Brady-Campaign-endorsed American Hunters and Shooters Association now says that the "assault weapon" fraud was a mistake. The emperor has not clothes...

[iverglas]

77. ad locutorem ad nauseam

Of course, to admit that would be to undermine your trusted-source heuristic, and admit that making outlawing protruding rifle handgrips a top legislative priority was a mistake. But your Anointed Ones at the Brady Campaign, the VPC, and the DLC don't make mistakes, hence...

Boilerplate bullshit, and more evidence of your abandonment of civility.

You would be hard pressed to find any mere reference by me to any of the organizations in question, let alone repeated citation of them as sources. I frankly seldom notice what the Brady Campaign or VPC do, and I wouldn't have a clue what the DLC has done in a decade.

But hey, don't let that stop you engaging in your diversionary grooming.

Btw, a Ruger mini-14 was what Lépine used for his mass murder, and there have long been efforts to have it placed on the restricted weapons list in Canada.

Two wrongs not making a right, and all that.

[tburnsten]

78. Why do Canadians want to place the Mini-14 on the Candian restricted list?

[iverglas]

79. short reading list

http://www.google.ca/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22mini-14%22+%22gun+control%22&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryCA

Should be info there from both sides.

It's not an issue I've paid particular attention to. Restricting access to firearms that are already restricted, and particularly handguns, is of more concern at present.

[tburnsten]

80. Restricting access to firearms that are already restricted?

Like putting more secure storage procedures in place, or banning them extra-hard?

[iverglas]

81. the licensing scheme determines access

In order to possess/acquire a restricted firearm, one needs a restricted firearm licence.

A restricted firearm licence is not difficult to acquire. Demonstrating the minimal knowledge required for a collector licence, or being a member of an approved gun club, is all that is needed.

Kimveer Gill was a member of a gun club. That's how he was able to acquire the restricted rifle he used to kill a student at Dawson College and the handgun he used to kill himself.

The person who killed a bystander when he tried to shoot a nightclub bouncer on the main commercial street of downtown Toronto had acquired a handgun legally, as a member of a gun club with a licence to posess a restricted weapon, which he then took with him on his night on the town.

There have been numerous thefts of multiple restricted firearms (including handguns) from "collectors" who obviously failed to store them securely.

The existing restrictions on legal access to handguns are clearly inadequate.

I have no problem with people engaging in sports shooting. At present, this may only be done at an approved club/range. I see no need for anyone to be in possession of firearms used for that purpose anywhere other than on those premises.


Like putting more secure storage procedures in place, or banning them extra-hard?

Aren't you glad you asked? There actually happens to be a reasonable answer, even if you couldn't think of it or don't like it.

[tburnsten]

82. Well banning extra-hard was humor

But I was genuinely curious, and it was a great answer. Very informative, I am pretty sure I knew most of it previously but not all things float at the top of my mind. Thanks.


But in regards to Kimveer Gill, if he shot and killed one person, and then shot and killed himself, did it really matter whether he had used a restricted firearm or not? If I recall it was a Beretta CX4 Storm, not a powerful weapon by any technical measure, since it is only chambered in pistol calibers, so he could have quite easily used a shotgun or an actual rifle and things would have been much the same.

Not trying to nitpick, just curious why his use of a restricted firearm makes any difference at all, since he did nothing that the restricted weapon was particularly suitable for.

[iverglas]

83. actually

Gill had a shotgun with him as well. (Btw, he only managed to kill one person, although he very seriously injured others, because there were police in the building who shot him in the arm and he then killed himself, as I recall the sequence.)

As I recall, he left the shotgun in a duffle bag outside the college and took the other two inside. I don't think there were any pix on his vampirefreaks page of him with the shotgun though ... Don't actually know how/why he had it, since it didn't fit the image and he apparently didn't use it when target practising.

The Beretta he had was indeed a restricted weapon here.


Not trying to nitpick, just curious why his use of a restricted firearm makes any difference at all, since he did nothing that the restricted weapon was particularly suitable for.

This is the bit that does seem to escape many people.

Shotguns aren't cool.

People like Gill, and gang-type people, really aren't attracted to shotguns.

There really is a dynamic that results in those kinds of people seeking out these kinds of things.

Now me, that's a different matter.

There are some stunning shotguns out there. And I find the shotgun form just rather pleasing in general. I've issued the challenge before; want me to love gunz? Buy me one of these.

http://www.nysun.com/antiques/sothebys-to-sell-british-guns/84200/


Sotheby's To Sell British Guns
A detail of an engraved Frederick Beesley
shotgun (2006) showing a deinonychus dinosaur,
estimated at between $75,000 and $112,000.

[tburnsten]

84. I think we have found some common firearms ground.

Hold on, I have to find you something good.

Will do it soon, doing a project right now.

"This is the bit that does seem to escape many people.

Shotguns aren't cool.

People like Gill, and gang-type people, really aren't attracted to shotguns."


They do actually often like shotguns, at least pump action ones, because of movies and games. And the sound of the pumping.

[tburnsten]

85. Check this out

http://www.hoferwaffen.com/


It's pure artwork. I don't even want to think about the cost, but I guess if you do, you can't afford one.

I remember reading some anecdote about a guy who was arrested for robbing a liquor store with a shotgun he had cut down the barrels and stock of. He made off with something like 175 bucks, but little did he know he had mutilated a $120,000 Purdey & Sons double barreled shotgun in the process. Sometimes I wish capital punishment was easier to give out, but then I remember all the times it is already improperly used.

It's too bad Gill wasn't shot before anyone died, and that he didn't receive any mental health assistance that might have prevented that situation entirely. But I do disagree that gangstarr types don't desire shotguns, I can think of at least four or so well known songs with them.

[iverglas]

86. quite the object

The wood itself is quite lovely in these things too; I'm assuming it's walnut, which is one I like.

I first noticed pretty shotguns in one of my favourite BBC mysteries a while ago, and went googling for some more pix. Gun porn.


He made off with something like 175 bucks, but little did he know he had mutilated a $120,000 Purdey & Sons double barreled shotgun in the process.

Stolen from an idiot, one can assume? I hate feeling sad about objects, but that's rather tragic. Not quite up there with the looting of Baghdad, but it's all history.

If people who own $120,000 firearms don't lock 'em up properly, what hope is there for the others?!


typo fixed

[tburnsten]

87. I don't know the circumstances of the theft

But I can't imagine owning a work of art like that and NOT properly securing it. A couple thousand for an abnormally strong and heavy safe doesn't seem so bad when you have a single $120K shotgun in there.

I spent about an hour just looking through the different "models", I guess styles would be a better term for it, on the HofferWaffen site yesterday. Absolutely gorgeous. And some of them are sooo intricate, like the shotgun/rifle combo with a rimfire offset barrel? All in one long gun!

[iverglas]

88. for more info

just in case it's of interest.

http://www2.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=9027cce5-cb29-4165-abe0-9d71a96d936a

The Bloc Québécois is famous for being separatist, but its actual contribution to the legislative process in Canada (as a large bloc of MPs in the federal House of Commons) is to oppose regressive right-wing ideology-driven Conservative Party initiatives and support progressive social policy.

An order-in-council is an executive action (the Governor in Council is the federal cabinet, in practice) under an authority delegated by legislation.

Shelving gun easy, Bloc MP says
Beretta rifle. Ménard: Criminal Code won't have to change
PAUL CHERRY, The Gazette
Published: Friday, September 05 2008

Designating the type of semiautomatic rifle Kimveer Gill used in the Dawson College shooting as a prohibited weapon would require very little effort from the federal government, Bloc Québécois MP Serge Ménard says.

Gill fired 72 shots from a CX4 Storm semiautomatic rifle, made by Beretta, during his Sept. 13, 2006 rampage, which left an 18-year-old student dead. In his report on the shooting, provincial coroner Jacques Ramsay calls on the federal public safety minister to make such a weapon prohibited, as opposed to a restricted firearm that can be obtained with a permit, which Gill had.

Making such a change does not require amending the Criminal Code, said Ménard, the Bloc's public safety critic. It would mean adding that rifle, and others like it, to an existing list of prohibited weapons - a simple process that requires only an order in council.

... "And if firearm companies modify their firearms to avoid the (prohibition) list, as they've done in the past, it can be changed just as quickly. We have these provisions because you need to modify them quickly once in a while."

There's more. And Quebec has apparently taken an interesting initiative (which the article incorrectly associates with the firearms registry, when in fact it relates to licensing):

The provincial government recently made changes that will require anyone seeking a permit in Quebec to visit a police station before applying to the provincial firearms inspector on paper.

The measure is intended to ensure a person seeking a firearm first meets face-to-face with a police officer, Dupuis said. If an officer suspects something is wrong, the firearms inspector won't consider the person's request.

typo fixed

[tburnsten]

90. 72 shots fired and only* one person was killed?

*I say only, I know one is one too many and I am assuming everyone else on board is mature enough to realize that. I'm just saying, that's a hell of a lot better an outcome than I would have expected from that number of shots fired. Mental health care (if needed) and some baseline social skills are critical.




I have to run again, will read more on this later, I am starting to love Canadians (not you though, nothing personal)

[RC]

4. That is totally asinine

Does that mean I can not carry a pocket knife with a 2 inch blade because it folds into the handle, but I can carry a knife in a sheath with a 6 inch blade that is open and ready to use?
With all the shore and beach fishing there, no pocket knives will go over real well.
Who thinks up this shit?

[iverglas]

5. likely not

Does that mean I can not carry a pocket knife with a 2 inch blade because it folds into the handle, but I can carry a knife in a sheath with a 6 inch blade that is open and ready to use?

Might we imagine that a law already exists governing that practice?

[X_Digger]

39. Like a dive knife? *sigh* n/t

[iverglas]

51. got google?

I read it yesterday ... let's see whether it's still open in a tab somewhere ...

Indeed it was.

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol03_ch0121-0200d/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0051.HTM

I'll even save you the finger strain of clicking.

A "diver's knife" is neither a "dangerous weapon" nor a "dagger". "Deadly and dangerous weapon" is one designed primarily as a weapon or diverted from normal use and prepared for combat. 56 H. 374, 537 P.2d 14.

Cane, butterfly and kitchen knives are not deadly or dangerous weapons. 56 H. 642, 547 P.2d 587. Sheathed sword-cane and wooden knuckles with shark's teeth were "deadly or dangerous weapons". 58 H. 514, 572 P.2d 1222.

Damn, the Internet is a wonderful thing.

So's a little intellectual curiosity, of course.


I was attempting to determine how that determination might affect a law governing pocket knives. I got sidetracked by a load 'o work and some stroppy clients. Maybe you can put your mind to the question.

[X_Digger]

56. So the answer is.. yes.

Strap that dive knife to your belt, thigh, or calf.

[tburnsten]

58. So a knife made specifically for cutting yourself free of underwater obstructions

including large fish that want to chew on you, is not a weapon?


That seems like a really fucked up metric to use to me.

[tburnsten]

47. Aha! No knives of ANY kind will be permitted!

Excellent deduction Iverglas!




What a shitty law this one is! How will people open boxes and packages? Will there be free public knives on cable tethers placed strategically around the islands?

[iverglas]

52. I am always pleased to see

how unloathe so many people are to make themselves look so foolish in public, all in the cause of truth and beauty. Or whatever it is.

[MrModerate]

6. This strikes me as a foolish law -- since the legitimate use of pocket knives . . .

So far outweighs their illegitimate use.

Which can't, however, be said of firearms.

The tool really, really, really matters. As does the motivation. To say that motivation is the only thing that matters, or is so much more important than the inherent qualities of the tool, is to deny reality.

Everyone is equipped with fists. You make a fist, you may be threatening someone. You make a fist with a firearm in your hand, and you've just discharged it. Make a fist in anger, and you've almost certainly discharged it at someone.

Firearms are inherently different from *every other object* that you can deliberately or accidentally injure someone with in terms of their ease of use, (uncontrollable) range, wide availability in many cultures, and the cavalier attitude with which many people handle them.

Is banning concealed pocket knives foolish? I'd say so. Is banning concealed firearms foolish? No. It's a big step toward getting our country back from fools with tools that deliver death as easily as closing your hand.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

7. Do you think that anyone can carry a concealed weapon?

[MrModerate]

8. Not sure what you're getting at . . . just about anyone physically can . . .

But -- as you no doubt know -- there are permitting requirements.

My position is that, in most cases, carrying concealed weapons should not be permitted.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

9. I agree, criminals should not be allowed to carry concealed firearms.

[iverglas]

12. can you do us a little copy & paste job

so we can see what it is you're agreeing with?

Or does text not travel well between never-neverland and our world?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

13. I'm agreeing with post #8.

[iverglas]

14. c'mon, humour me

Copy what it is in post #8 that you're agreeing with.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

18. Iverglas you aren't that dense, I wrote what I agreed with.

[iverglas]

21. you did indeed

and as far as I can tell, ou pulled it out of your bum and then agreed with it.

I guess that's why you have been unable to print it out.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

23. If Mr Moderate disagrees he can certainly post about it.

[iverglas]

24. I'm the one who asked you a question

You're the one who chose to post what you did.

Why won't you answer the question by doing what is needed for that purpose?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. I already told you.

I don't think criminals should be allowed to carry concealed firearms. Feel free to disagree.

david

[iverglas]

27. I didn't ask you what you think

So I won't be bothering to have an opinion about what you think.

I asked you to identify what you agreed with.

You won't do it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. I agreed that most people shouldn't be carrying concealed weapons.

Since most of the people who do so do it illegally I assumed he was speaking of criminals. He never responded, so we may never know.

David

[iverglas]

30. .

:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. More of that constructive debate you like to engage in I see.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. By the way how are your mom and your sister?

[Howzit]

17. "My position is that, in most cases, carrying concealed weapons should not be permitted."

I read that as "I can't be trusted with a weapon, so neither should anyone else be".

[iverglas]

22. and

I read that as "I can't be trusted with a weapon, so neither should anyone else be".

I read that as "I don't have the integrity to discuss policy issues without misrepresenting and vilifying people who disagree with me".

I think I'm a lot closer to the mark.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. Pot meet kettle.

[MrModerate]

26. What iverglas said . . . and . . .

"I don't choose to own firearms, and I think we'd all be safer if others made the same choice."

But wait! The majority of people have already chosen -- not to own firearms.

[tburnsten]

49. A very slim majority

especially considering the amount of people who "have" guns that aren't actually theirs and are not in their possession. Guns are often sort of a family possession.

[iverglas]

53. not actually

... people who "have" guns that aren't actually theirs and are not in their possession. Guns are often sort of a family possession.

In many such cases, we are talking about male household members having guns w/o consultation with the female household members, who, if able to exercise a choice, would not have firearms in the house.

And yes, you do know it.

[tburnsten]

55. That's an awfully bold statement

But being a female, you must be the prime authority on what they want.


I was talking about people who have "their" gun in the same place all the other guns owned by anyone in their family reside. By family I mean more than just a nuclear family. It is quite common, but you are so unfamiliar with gun owners I wouldn't expect you to know that. Blanket statements about "most" gunowning homes including females who "would rather not have firearms in the house" if they were "given a choice" is your forte, me, I know guns.

[iverglas]

60. read much?

Blanket statements about "most" gunowning homes including females who "would rather not have firearms in the house" if they were "given a choice" is your forte

You'd think I'd indulge it more often then, wouldn't you?

Whom were you quoting there? Can you really not read?

[tburnsten]

62. Do you have any real integrity or no? Hide behind words there buddy

I quoted your previous post. Try again.

[iverglas]

64. I have no idea whether what you are lacking is integrity

or intelligence. Or just a decent pair of glasses.


Do you have any real integrity or no? Hide behind words there buddy
I quoted your previous post. Try again.


Here is you "quoting" what I said:

Blanket statements about "most" gunowning homes including females who "would rather not have firearms in the house" if they were "given a choice" is your forte

Here is what I said:

In many such cases, we are talking about male household members having guns w/o consultation with the female household members, who, if able to exercise a choice, would not have firearms in the house.

If I had intended to say "MOST", I would have said "MOST".

I didn't say "MOST". I said "MANY". (Do the big letters help at all?)

Just by the bye, the word "rather" did not figure in my post. I have also never in my life used the word "females" to refer to women or girls.

I can teach you how to copy and paste so you can avoid these problems, if you like.

But I'm afraid I wouldn't know how to go about teaching you not to say things that are not true.

[tburnsten]

66. You are truly a slave to exact definitions of words aren't you?

[iverglas]

67. yeah, that's me

So next time somebody here says s/he owns many firearms, I'll ask why s/he would claim to own most firearms ...

Damn those exact definitions of words. Or even the really general ones.

I guess we'll take that as a retraction of your repeated false statement, shall we?

[tburnsten]

48. In most cases, people don't carry

ONly a very small percentage of the population applies for and acquires a permit to carry concealed firearms, and those that do have a pretty universally clean bill of legal health. Myself, I got in a spot of trouble about four years back now for weed, but about this time last year I applied for and received my carry permit. In my case, my local police chief and everyone else involved in the approval process felt that my lack of rabble-rousing and my decision to join the service was at least equal to and probably outweighed my previous legal history. Along with my total lack of a violent history, I got my permit. I think that is exactly the outcome that should have happened.


So in "most" cases, carrying a concealed weapon is not permitted, since far and away "most" people are not licensed to carry.

[jeepnstein]

75. I find...

that very few CCW holders in my area actually bother to carry a firearm on a regular basis. It's just an extra tool they have at their disposal if needed.

Lawful Citizens just don't have the time and energy for all that chaos and mayhem that the gang culture embraces.

[tburnsten]

76. True that

In my area they also have a tendency to just get it for car carry. Not my style, but whatever. At least they are exercising their rights you know?

[opihimoimoi]

11. As an ex Boy Scout...I ain't giving up my knives or box cutters...they are tools in the construction

trade, hunting, fishing, whittling, etc etc

Who the Fuck thought up this shit is a dolt, idiot, and or plain dunb.

[iverglas]

19. "Who the Fuck thought up this shit is a dolt, idiot, and or plain dunb"

Not at all curious who it was?

Why, it seems to have been a Democrat.

http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Les_Ihara,_Jr.

Les Ihara, Jr., member of the Democratic Party represents the 9th Senatorial District on the Hawaii State Senate of the Hawaii State Legislature. The 9th District includes the Kaimuki, Kapahulu, Palolo, St. Louis Heights, Maunalani Heights, Kapiolani Park areas on the island of Oahu, in the state of Hawaii.

I know no more about him, or the reason for his bill. Surely someone who wants to speak to it, one way or another, ought to.

[opihimoimoi]

31. It don't matter what pol persuasion...its still fucking dumb...Les must be dumb

as a box of nails to intro the bill....

Maybe he meant hidden Pubs..

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. Plenty of dumb democrats.

Just look at all the people that still support the AWB.

David

[michreject]

36. Fortunately some of the Dumb ones

Live in another country and their opinions are nothing but hot air and have NO relevance to our laws.

[Howzit]

40. "Why, it seems to have been a Democrat."

This Would be just as stupid and insulting to the people if "it" had been a Republican.

Affiliation doesn't matter, only motivation. Now, what is the reason for this bill - Ihara doesn't trust the people that he represents and that makes him suspect.

[iverglas]

43. and yet it wasn't

And it's pretty much never Democrats doing the things that the denizens of the dungeon regularly applaud. It's just a funny little coincidence I notice.


Now, what is the reason for this bill - Ihara doesn't trust the people that he represents and that makes him suspect.

Now, what is your reason for making an allegation for which you have no foundation and that doesn't even make a stitch of sense ... . I wonder.

I do trust that you would be saying the same thing if Ihara were introducing a speed limit bill where there had been none before: just doesn't trust his constituents, that man.

I don't have a clue what his reason for the bill is. I would expect that someone who wanted to know might, oh, ask his office.

[spin]

16. Is there a sudden outbreak of violence involving knives in Hawaii?

I know that the U.K. has had a rash of problems involving knives and violent youth.

The new figures indicate that in the year 2007-8 there were some 277 deaths from stabbings in England & Wales alone (the highest recorded figure for 30 years). This represents an average death toll as a direct result of stabbings of over 5 for every week of the year!

**********snip***********

When listening to the governments carefully worded response to any hint of an escalation in UK knife crime however, time and again, the answer somehow seems to skirt the core of the question. The response normally includes a statement about some tough new measures "about to be introduced" to make our streets safer and some form of comment to the effect that overall violent crime is down! ...the cynical amongst you could however be forgiven for wondering if even that is true, or if that itself could be anything to do with how crimes are classified and which are actually recorded.

**********snip***********

Those dealing with the issues on the ground within the community have long been saying that the growing weapons culture and the easy willingness to use them is a symptom of deep rooted problems in our society. Poverty, lack of opportunity, the "must have now" culture (fuelled by the easy access to credit - even to those unable to afford it), the growing divide between the rich and poor, the break down of family values and discipline, are just some of the issues which probably have to be tackled if we are really going to solve the problem. Such a cultural change may take a generation or two to achieve, but unless we get started, things are likely to get a lot worse before they get better.
http://www.insight-security.com/facts-knife-crime-stats.htm

[jeepnstein]

37. Maybe...

I have a friend who recently returned from a visit to Hawaii. He was on a business trip that kept him in the islands for a couple of months.

He is of the opinion that gangs are overrunning the islands and the powers-that-be are doing their darnedest to ignore it for fear of harming the tourist trade. Most gangs form along ethnic lines and this situation is apparently no different. This time it's the Samoans.

Banning knives won't do a thing about these guys.

[spin]

72. I makes no sense to take pocket knives from honest citizens...

if you have a gang problem.

How do the politicians who come up with these ideas ever get elected?

[jody]

45. Than goodness only blades that fold are to be banned. I'll carry my retractable bladed knife legally

[spin]

89. I wonder if this retractable knife would be legal?...

Not only is the proposed law incredibly stupid, but it's poorly written.

"Pocket knife" means a knife with a blade that folds into the handle and which is suitable for carrying in the pocket."
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2009/bills/SB126_.HTM

From the definition, this pocket knife should be OK. This cute little knife is7 1/2 in. overall opened with a 3 in. blade.




First of its kind Spring Assist knife, this model features the highly sought after out-the-front action. This is a true new production technology spring assist knife, not an illegal stiletto automatic.
http://www.trueswords.com/spring-assist-outthefront-schrade-extreme-black-p-4155.html

I have one by my computer. Makes a neat letter opener.

And here is a pocket knife that doesn't fold or retract as it is a fixed blade It has a five inch overall length and a blade length of 1.750 inches.

Bark River Mikro Canadian


And here's the pocket sheath:

[iverglas]

91. I knew I needed to keep that tab open ...

Does nobody here got google??

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol03_ch0121-0200d/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0052.HTM

§134-52 Switchblade knives; prohibitions; penalty.
(a) Whoever knowingly manufactures, sells, transfers, possesses, or transports in the State any switchblade knife, being any knife having a blade which opens automatically
(1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of the knife, or
(2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both,
shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

(b) Whoever knowingly possesses or intentionally uses or threatens to use a switchblade knife while engaged in the commission of a crime shall be guilty of a class C felony.

Yours: This is a true new production technology spring assist knife, not an illegal stiletto automatic.

You be the judge.


There's also:

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol03_ch0121-0200d/HRS0134/HRS_0134-0051.HTM
(and see case notes there, to which I did refer earlier)

§134-51 Deadly weapons; prohibitions; penalty.
(a) Any person, not authorized by law, who carries concealed upon the person's self or within any vehicle used or occupied by the person or who is found armed with any dirk, dagger, blackjack, slug shot, billy, metal knuckles, pistol, or other deadly or dangerous weapon shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and may be immediately arrested without warrant by any sheriff, police officer, or other officer or person. Any weapon, above enumerated, upon conviction of the one carrying or possessing it under this section, shall be summarily destroyed by the chief of police or sheriff.

(b) Whoever knowingly possesses or intentionally uses or threatens to use a deadly or dangerous weapon while engaged in the commission of a crime shall be guilty of a class C felony.


Come on. Are there really people who think that the fact that a provision to prohibit Item X is proposed to be ADDED to an existing law necessarily means that Items Y and Z are not already prohibited or otherwise addressed in a law??

[spin]

92. The legality of the Sharade knife is the question...

A lot will depend on how Hawaii courts interpret the law. The "slider" that you apply pressure to is on the blade not in the handle. While this is a technicality, it has been successfully argued that spring assisted knives are not switchblades in many states.

For example, California:

Bill SB 274, clarifies the definition of a one-hand opening knife so they are not wrongly classified as switchblades. Bill SB 274 clearly states: For the purposes of this section, switchblade knife means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. Definition of Switchblade knife does not include a knife that is designed to open with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife utilizes a detent or other mechanism that (a) provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or (b) biases the blade back toward its closed position. In order to ensure that only legitimate one-handed opening knives are covered, SB 274 narrows the language to only allow knives to fall under the exemption from the switchblade law if that one-handed opening knife contains a detent or similar mechanism. Such mechanisms ensure there is a measure of resistance that prevents the knife from being easily opened with a flick of the wrist. Moreover, a detent or other mechanism is prudent and a matter of public safety as it will ensure that a blade will not inadvertently come open.
http://reviews.ebay.com/WHY-SPRING-ASSIST-KNIVES-ARE-100-LEGAL_W0QQugidZ10000000003499049

[iverglas]

93. that's what I figured from the "spring-assisted"

Now if only I knew what a "detent" is ...

[tburnsten]

96. Sort of like a small ball bearing and a round cavity for it to partially insert into

I'm trying to think of someplace you would commonly see them, but am drawing a blank. That isn't the only kind, it can basically be any kind of a raised protrusion and a matching concave area that generates mechanical resistance. Would make a folding knife need to have a defined point of resistance to overcome before opening, rather than a gradual and smooth opening with no blocks. I am a bad descriptor.

[spin]

97. Spring-assisted knives are under legal scrutiny in Texas...

The knifes in question are the Kershaw Speed Safe series. The designer is Kenneth J. Onion. The knives are named Leek, Chive, Scallion and Shallot. (Love the names.)

These blades are not out the front spring assisted knives but more typical folding knives. By pressing slightly on a tab on the blade, the spring is activated and the blade springs open. These knifes are commonly sold at Wal-Mart and can be ordered over the internet from may sources including Amazon.com.

A class action suit was filed this month in Texas and can be reviewed at: http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/01/08/Switchblades.pdf


Kershaw Ken Onion Leek Folding Knife with Speed Safe

I would imagine that the Schrade out the front spring assisted knife would definitely be viewed as a switchblade in Texas.

For a video on the Schrade OTF visit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1lBmvVIX-o (I guarantee you'll love the narrator.)

For a video on the Kershaw Leek visit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNCKVpIEtuE (The narrator is not quite as fascinating as the one in the first video.)

You will note that these two videos show people firing their knives a lot. People who own knives like these or true switchblades seem fascinated by this activity. My son in law will occasionally sit in his chair idly firing his double action OTF switchblade (auto knife) while he watches TV. His is a relatively cheap imported knife which he uses for everything from cutting or stripping wire to opening cardboard boxes. Since he as a Florida Concealed Weapons permit he can carry it concealed. For him it's not a weapon, but a tool. I offered to buy him a high quality auto knife which would cost somewhere around $400, but he told me he would never use it as he would damage the blade.

While I own a Schrade OTF assisted knife, (which I bought as a curio and serves as a letter opener) and a side opening auto knife, I'm not fond of these knives for everyday carry. When I carry a pocket knife, I carry a Benchmade 710 axis lock. The knife has an extremely strong locking mechanism when open. If the locking mechanism fails on a folding knife, you can end up with a very nasty cut.

And while this knife does not have a spring assist and is not a switchblade, it can be opened very quickly with one hand as shown in the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYYcEPykOzQ&feature=related (Note, while I can open the knife as fast or faster than the individual in the video, I am far more careful while closing the blade. A lesson taught by experience. (One of the internet sites I order knives from is part of a pharmacy. When UPS delivers your new knife, you also get a package of band aids.)

The Chris Reeves Sebenza is considered by many as the standard for pocket knives. Like my Benchmade it has no spring assist nor is it a switchblade. It is however a very expensive pocket knife costing from $385 up.

Note it also manually opens and closes very quickly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fAVpTtVRWQ

I've probably given you more info about knives then you really ever wanted. Hopefully your modem has been replaced.

By the way, you wondered what a knife detent was.

Detent:
A minute divot or dimple machined into the blade tang. A ball bearing drops into the detent hole when the knife is in the closed position, holding the knife blade closed inside the handle.

Tang:
The portion of the blade where it connects to the handle.
http://www.elinemerchandising.com/knife-terms.htm