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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:14 AM
Original message
DU gun nuts
...sorry, just wanted to make sure you clicked through. ;)

Can one of you point me to somewhere that reviews guns? I think it's time for us... because I don't feel like we need one yet, but I tend to buy snowshovels in August.
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. What kind of info are you looking for?
Edited on Tue Nov-04-03 11:27 AM by Patriot_Spear
...and for what purpose?

After re-reading your post here are a couple of suggestions.

An individual's weapon selection should reflect their needs. There are three area's you to cover- distance weapons; area weapons and personal side arms.

If you're on a budget you might try this combination:

A Chi-Com SKS 7.62 rifle; cheap, durable functional and easy to maintain; good to about 300 yards. $100.

Mossburg 500 Pump 12 ga. shotgun, with the riot and deer barrel / Pistol grip or stock option. $230.

Any Taurus 9mm- inexpensive, pletiful ammo, easy to use. $230.

These three weapons will cover a variety of situations. Please seek professional gun training before purchasing any firearm.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well
I spent nearly two years researching before I bought our television, so I figure I should start reading before we buy a handgun. Something simple to lock away handily at home. Something completely reliable. Something Mrs. Robb and I can both shoot -- which would make it a replacement for Grandpa's shotgun, which, while ornate, tends to bruise when fired. ;)

Like I say, we're so out in the sticks it hardly matters right now, but I've come to think that there will be a time in the future when we'll want a handgun.
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Revolver...maybe a .38.
Revolvers don't jam, like semi-automatics can. A .38 won't have so much recoil that the gun jumps in your hand, but it has some stopping power.
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Depends on your load...
Edited on Tue Nov-04-03 11:32 AM by Patriot_Spear
Plus-P's or Glasser safety slugs transfer the kenetic energy the best.
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Very true.
I've just always been of the opinion that revolvers are best for the person who just wants a "just in case gun". The theory is that they don't get used much, if at all. So, when the need arises, that person needs something that will work reliably.

As you suggested, consulting with a professional who can fit the gun to exact needs and hand sizes, etc is the way to go.

My opinion is decidedly unprofessional. :-)
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. You can't go wrong with a Smith & Wesson revolver
Or a Colt or a Ruger. I like the triggers on the S&W's best. Taurus makes decent ones for a little less money.

Go to a range and rent a few different revolvers. Find one that feels right, that fits your hand naturally. You may want to switch to some aftermarket grips.

BTW revolvers CAN jam if you are remiss in cleaning and lubricating them. They can rust (even stainless steel ones). All firearms require careful maintenance in order to be reliable.

If you want to see some reviews look through back-issues of Guns and Ammo or one of the NRA publications (American Rifleman or American Hunter) at your local library.
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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Nice thigs about the Taurus revolver
Most are identical to Smith & Wesson. If the model numbers are the same, they're identical. (Same parent company) Same goes for many Taurus semi-autos with model numbers matching Beretta. They're generally about 20% less expensive and have a lifetime warranty. Smith does not, nor does Beretta.

Afer market grips are almost always a plus for grip and control unless the handgun you choose comes with rubberized grips. I prefer finger grooves.

A parting thought. If this is going to live in your residence only, consider a semi-auto or pump shotgun. Keep it loaded with 8 or 9 shot. At the distances you'll need it in a house, unless you live in a huge home, the shot cup will hit like a slug, but the energy will dissipate much faster if you miss - you kill a small section of drywall in ONE wall without ventilating your whole house and possibly having unintended consequences when a solid round finally finds it's final target.

DO NOT believe Hollywood. EFX guys love to show shotguns destroying everything in a 10 block radius. It just isn't so.
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. That's a really good suggestion...
Find a shop that has a range and most of the time they'll let you try a few rounds through a prospective purchase.
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BallaFaseke Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum
Tough, reliable, goes boom.

Also the .357 Mag can be downloaded with .38 specials for the wife or partner.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. That's just not true...
When semi-autos first came out, they had a reliability problem. That's no longer true for high quality guns. And revolvers can and DO break frequently, especially if not kept in a pristine environment. Dust and lint can jam a revolver easier than a semi-auto. And a squib load can easily lock up a cylinder.
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Wcross Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. .357
Get a .357 wheel gun, you could use either .357 or .38 rounds.
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. okay...see above. n/t
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Frangible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. I recommend a Glock
You can get a Glock 17 with full capacity 17 round magazines in 9x19mm. It's a rock solid, reliable and accurate weapon. Unlike a revolver you have 17 rounds to work with and can reload very quickly. Most self defense situations happen at night so I recommend tritium sights. You won't go wrong with a Glock. The 9mm is very easy on recoil yet packs a relatively powerful punch. Of course, if you'd prefer something a bit meatier, there are Glocks also in .40 S&W, 10mm auto, and .45 ACP. (note: if you have smaller hands, the Glock 19 is a better bet)

see:
http://www.glockfaq.com
and perhaps http://www.glocktalk.com, if you don't mind sorting through conservative blather

Just my opinion though... also, if you plan on CCWing, you might want to look into a Kahr PM9.
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alwynsw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. You have to find a pre-ban magazine
if you want anything more than 10 rounds. You can get them through most gun shops or online (magazines only)at several dealers. I got a couple at www.prebanmags.com. That's not a plug, just where I got them.

The omnibus crime bill limited handgun mags to 10 rounds max.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-03 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. That's it! We might as well tear up the constitution!
The gun grabbers have banned large capacity magazines, limiting us to only PRE BAN large capacity magazines. Gees, America as George Washington knew it is a thing of the past. What next? Will voting be banned, and only pre ban voters be allowed to cast ballots?
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Some advice from a Private Investigator.
Buying a gun is a major lifestly decision. It is a commitment. You need to learn how to use it proficiently and what the laws in your area really are. Here are two books that are an absolute must for anybody even thinking of having a gun:
In the Gravest Extreme - Masaad Ayoob
The Truth about Self Defense - Masaad Ayoob

He is progun, a lawyer and an excop. He knows what he is talking about. Absolutely get and read those two books.

Your ammunition should be frangible. Glazers,- That a brand name - are the absolute best. They are about $5.00 per bullet so you don't use them for target shooting, only for genuine defense.

Spend the extra money to get a laser sight for you handgun. It helps you get on target faster, and is more accurate. Also there is a scare factor when a crook sees that red dot on his heart. It can also help in non lethal defense. Flash the laser in his eyes and you might temporarily blind him, enabling you to find a nonlethal way of defending yourself.

A gun is not magical, you have to pratice with it. You have to learn what really happens.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Ignore his advice:
Masaad Aboob is an idiot.

Laser sights are worse than worthless, they're detrimental. And it takes quite a while to blind somebody with a laser of that size. You should never draw your gun unless you need to shoot somebody right then. It's not a prop.

The ONLY thing he's right on is PRACTICE.
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MojoKrunch Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Some practical advice and opinion.
I watched this play out in a gun store one day.
Much older husband and wife, "fair booth" owners, looking for self-defense weapon.
Hubby obviously knows his way around firearms but wifey can't even pull the trigger properly... old, weak shaky hands.
Pointless.
She'd have been better off with an airhorn and pepperspray.

//Something Mrs. Robb and I can both shoot//
Take the Mrs. to the gun store with you and figure out what *she* can handle.

//...but I've come to think that there will be a time in the future when we'll want a handgun.//
IMO, stick with a shotgun.
Big, loud and scary as hell when aimed your way.
Pump-action if you want dependability.
Semi-auto if you want rapid firepower.

Even a lightweight 20-guage would be effective for home-defense.
Or get a 12-guage and use bird shot.
Wifey should be able to handle this even if she is tiny.
You can put it in a lockbox near the front door.

Handguns were designed for *personal* defense and IMO, a pointless purchase unless you plan on taking it with you.

Mojo
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short bus president Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. You should repost in the gun dungeon
those good folks are full of sage advice. Here in the Lounge you're liable to just be harangued as "not a real liberal."

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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Probably
...But I feel so comfortable here. :) Plus, I think they'd make fun of my bunny slippers down there.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. 1a2b3c would
probably be glad to help you. He's usually hanging out down there.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. Revolvers
Automatics seem so cool, esp. on TV and you can get those really neat .50 cal Desert Eagles for a couple of grand.

However, if you want a reliable handgun, get a revolver. Dave Berkowitz used a .44 revolver and had no complaints. I think it was a Charter Arms weapon but I don't recall exactly. I lived near Forest Hills at that time and remember cops commenting on how sensible that weapon was for shooting through windows at innocent girls making out in cars.

More interesting to me is the question of why you are coming to think arming yourself will be more important in the future than at present.

I have no illusions that buying a gun or two will do me any real good when the guys in the black choppers come knocking.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Just this:
I live in a little town that has little crime. Our cops, sadly, do two things: domestic disputes and traffic stops. But we're growing, and I know growth leads to problems. I feel the time will come, but I've got time to shop, if you know what I mean.

As far as the guys in black choppers, I've got a neighbor who's set for that. He's been set for some time. Not my scene, frankly... although it's kind of comforting to know he watches the house when we're gone. You know, comforting in a kind of creepy way.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-03 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. Why that's just silly
Everyone knows that if your are going to defend America against the black helicopters, then you need an AR-15 with a 50 round drum, a silencer, flash suppressor, bipod, collapsable stock, and carbine barrel, with a night-vision scope. Anything less is just an abdication of your patriotic duty.
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1a2b3c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-03 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. You would stand a better chance against [i]black helipcopters[/i]
with and AR-15 with a 50 round drum, a silencer, flash suppressor, bipod, collapsable stock, and carbine barrel, with a night-vision scope than you would with a snub nose revolver. Wouldnt you agree? Isnt the second amendment about arming a militia or something?
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Bunny slippers are cool!
Get a Glock 17 (small hands) or 19 (large hands)
9mm rounds are $6.00 a box of 50, so no excuse for not practicing.
The Glock is the most reliable of all semi-auto hands guns.
The frames have never reached a known "failed" shot number, as compared to a Berretta (25,000 - 30,000 rds frame failure).
You can stomp it in the mud shake it off and it'll shoot. For about $10 you can modify it to shoot under water, great for shark muggers!
I've had a model 17 for about 4 years now, and it is my daily ccw pistol.
Easy to clean, reliable, unbreakable. What else do you need?
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demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-03 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. Spoon think you got the numbers wrong
The 17 is the full size 9mm and the 19 the more compact.
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-03 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Dem"s - Your right!
Edited on Wed Nov-05-03 08:54 AM by Spoonman
Can I blame this on lysdexia.....dyslexia?
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1a2b3c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. get a glock 18
I wish i was in the FBI or something so i could get one and a few extra 30 round mags. :-)
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. They're fun...
but they make me nervous. Every time I messed with them, I was worried that it'd go full auto when I wanted single shot, or single shot when I wanted full auto.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
12. try Google
"gun reviews"
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
24. Try before you buy
Boy no shortage of friendly advice and no one making fun of you down here (so far at least!)

One of the guys recommended going to your local range and renting several guns to see what you and the missus are ocmfortable shooting. That's a great idea. You can rent a gun for around $8 a session if you buy your ammo there and any good range will let you test drive a few in the hopes of selling you one when you make up your mind. They will also rent you hearing and eye protection,. required at all ranges.

Revolvers are indeed more reliable and easier to shoot, but many don't have a "safety" on them, like a semi-auto usually does. But try a little of everything to see what works for both of you. The most important issue is your comfort and confidence level with what you have.

My wife wound up falling in love with my 1911 Government Semi Auto to the point where I have to ask for my turn when we go shooting. The daughters, on the other hand, like my little .380 Colt semi auto. Small, easy to handle and no kick to speak of. My son loves my old Single Action Army Colt six shooter. A lid for every pot I guess.

Once a month I teach shooting basics to a Pink Pistol (gay and lesbian shooting group) club in the Chicago area at a local range . I usually bring 6 to 8 handguns to start with, to let everyone find what they are comfortable with. There's no rhyme or reason to what people like shooting. I've had big hulking 250# athletes get stuck on a little .22 Browning buckmark target pistol and one little tiny 90 pound thing that loved shooting the big clunky 1911 .45. Go Figue?

The recommendation on a shotgun for home defense is a good one. With #6 to #9 birdshot you will be plenty safe and not have to worry about creating a bunch of little tiny skylites, if worse really ever comes to worse. There are a lot of cases where just that signature sound of racking a pump shotgun has been enough to deter someone trying to break in (according tomy brother the Chicago cop). You can also go trap shooting with it in a pinch. A smaller lighter 20 guage is just fine for your purposes, lighter and usually cheaper by $50 too.

Find what you both like (or get two guns, one shotgun and one handgun) and practice at minimum several times a year, preferably more often. Target shooting can become an pleasantly addicting sport that requires total concentration.

Oh and don't be surprised to find yourself surrounded by a mutlicultural crowd too. The "confederate flag wavin' beer drinkin' Good Ole Boy's shooting up the place" stereotype is just that, a stereotype. In spite of some simple minded morons ranting to the contrary shooters are a very diverse and tolerant group of people. I oughta know, I are one!

Don P.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. SAY IT AIN'T SO!
The "confederate flag wavin' beer drinkin' Good Ole Boy's shooting up the place" stereotype is just that, a stereotype.

My entire perception of reality has just been shattered.

:D
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Well for some folks that's their reality
I'm sorry to shatter your closely held beliefs (Haw!)

Sad ain't it, that some people have to see all gun owners and shooters as middle aged, overweight angry white guys from the local trailer park that take just enough time off from beating our wives and drinking to shoot up the place.

And somehow, even though only 5% of owners belong to the NRA, according to some folks round these parts, we all sacrifice an untainted lamb to Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent every week at our klan meetings, huh?

From time to time I've shared some of the print outs from these little discussions with the folks I teach and shoot with.

Quite a few of the African-Americans and Latinos (about 40% of my classes) were surprised to find out that some so-called Democrats here think they are all "lying racist scum". The Pink Pistols were stunned to learn they were homophobic too (about 30 every month).

My wife and 3 daughters were also very dissappointed to find out they are sexist too ... and have a penis inferiority complex of course.

Maybe we need a "Biggest and Dumbest gun owner myth" thread?

Don P.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-03 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. Let's do the math shall we?
80 million gun owners, 4 million NRA members. Does anybody have a calculator?
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-04-03 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
26. Thanks for all the advice
And I was only funnin' about the bunny slippers comment. And look, they moved the thread here anyhoo!

I'll probably do a lot of try-before-you-buy sort of stuff, probably through neighbors as much as dealers. :) In your experience, do catalogs and websites really come out ahead of local dealers, after shipping and whatever the local dealer charges for the processing/storage?
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Withergyld Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-03 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Bunny slippers are OK
but the Ulimate accessory is the Foster Farms Chicken Mitt

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50534&highlight=chicken+mitt
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1a2b3c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-05-03 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
32. If you are looking for reviews on guns i think this is about the best plac
http://handgunreview.com/ Then when you come close to deciding almost all makers have a discussion board like ruger boards or 1911.org.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
39. Much good advice for a first time buyer
Edited on Thu Nov-06-03 02:18 AM by happyslug
But I have to agree with the people who say your first choice should be a shotgun. Shotguns and Rifles are TWO handed weapons designed for quick and easy use.

Pistol design also tends to quick and easy use, but with the additional requirements of being able to be carried in a holster AND one hand use (and I know it is better to use two hands even in a Pistol, I am discussing DESIGN, not optimize usage).

These two additional design requirements compromises the ability of pistols to be easy to use and quick to aim. With a shotgun your body has three points of contact with the weapon, your two hands and your shoulder. Furthermore the act of putting the weapon into your shoulder brings it up to your eyes for aiming (or "pointing" if using a shotgun without sights). These natural parts of the design is why all armies in the world equipment their personnel with Rifles instead of pistols (Most armies only issue pistols to personnel who do to job assignments can not operate a rifle and also the assignment. i.e. Machine Gunner, a Tank operator and pilots among other examples. Another example are MPs who are issued pistols for they may have to direct traffic, pistols free both hands for directing traffic. This is the same reason Police are issued pistols instead of Rifles).

One last comment on the use of force, in most states you have to "retreat" from any confrontation if you can. In my home state of Pennsylvania this duty ends at your door step (and if the “home invader” runs out of your home, the duty to retreat also begins at that door step). My advice is always to call the Police FIRST and than try to retreat if possible. Only if those two actions fail should you use deadly force. If the "home invader" leaves, leave him go, do NOT shot him. A few years ago a doctor found a person in his home, he chased the person out of his home and than down the street where he shot the “home invader”. The Doctor was convicted of Manslaughter for he had chased the person out of his home and therefore the “Home invader” was no longer a threat to him or his family (I should note had the “Home Invader” been shot in the home it would have been valid self-defense, Pennsylvania does not recognize a duty to retreat FROM one’s home).

Also in the USA home invasions when the home is occupied is rare (as is looting after disasters, the fear of being shot is the main reason given by criminals when ask why they will do neither). In England and other heavy gun control countries, such home invasions are much more common (again attributed to the lack of guns in the homes in those countries), but let me say this, Criminal statistics are easy to manipulate (and often are) except for homicide (You almost always have a body for a Homicide, thus hard to reduce or increase homicide crime rate do to local political reasons). My point is the crime rate has been going down for over 30 years (since the mid-1970s, except for an increase in the late 1980s AND an increase in the number of NON-family/friends murders). Murder has lead this decrease in crime, with other crimes also dropping. Reason for this drop is all over the board I have my own theorys but for this topic we just have to point out the DROP in crime Not why crime has dropped.

I believe the drop in crime since the mid-1970s (With its huge drop in the 1990s) has to do with increase Children and Family intervention starting in the early 1980s. The reason it only starts in the 1990s is that the crime rate reflects a drop in people with violent tendencies, and those tendencies do not manifest themselves till a child is a teenager. On the other hand the violent tendency is “learn” by the child as a preschooler. If the child does not learn to be violent as a preschooler do to family intervention, than the child does not become a violent teenager ten years later and thus crimes drops.

Increase policing and longer sentencing have also been factors through, in my opinion, less a factor than that fact that most inner-city blacks of today are now 2-3 generations away from the rural south and the rural south’s long history of violence. As a result today’s inner-city urban blacks have a more traditional “Northern” attitude to violence as opposed to the blacks of the 1960s whose upbringing still reflected the violence of the rural south. Even today the Rural South is the most violent area of the United States, and has been since colonial days (and this history of violence applies to rural southern whites as while as rural southern blacks). Scholars have long reported it takes 2-3 generations to change a culture, given that most blacks moved to the inner-city only starting during WWII (and increasing rapidly in the 1950s) the blacks who came of age in the 1960s and 1970s still were influenced by their family’s rural southern roots and the rural south’s culture of violence. Today’s inner-city blacks are to far removed from that Southern Rural Culture and the drop in crime among inner city blacks reflect this change.

Thus between family intervention and the weakening of traditions of violence in families are the main reason for the drop in crime. Crime and family violence have long been connected and thus by addressing inner family violence you drop crime rate. It takes ten years for the crime rates to fall, but it will fall to reflect the drop in inner family violence (and will increase when such family intervention is reduced, for example in the late 1950s the states all deduced family intervention services do to the recession of 1959, this lead to the increase in crime rates in the late 1960s).

Jut a reminder, shotguns are the best form of self-Defense but also remember crime is DROPPING and will continue to drop as long as we fund Children And youth Services and other family intervention programs.


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