Canadian editorial “Ammunition for gun ban” February 17, 2009

[jody]

“Ammunition for gun ban”

A disturbing break-in at the home of a Scarborough gun collector this month highlights the need for a national handgun ban. Thanks to this individual's desire to own deadly weapons, criminals have now obtained 12 firearms, including 10 handguns.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

If collectors were barred from possessing handguns, thieves would have one less source of supply. Unlike a hunting rifle or shotgun, a handgun has no practical use except to kill a human being.

Easily concealed pistols are the criminal element's weapon of choice. And make no mistake: Gang members, drug dealers and other thugs will take extreme measures to obtain a pistol.

These guns should be denied to all except police, the military and a few top competitive shooters. Other handgun owners should be required to surrender them under a nationwide buy-back program. Depriving criminals of their supply matters more to society than indulging hobbyists.

The gun-grabber beetle writing this editorial ignores the blatant fact that “Easily concealed pistols are the criminal element's weapon of choice” and they are also the weapon of choice for law-abiding citizens who wish to protect themselves against criminals, a task that only totalitarian governments may be able to do.

[Deep13]

1. "...a few top competitive shooters..."

Apart from the obvious elitism of this remark, how does one become a top competitive shooter if one is not allowed to start off as an beginning shooter?

Again, the problem is the guy who did nothing wrong and not the criminals who broke into his house.

[iverglas]

4. that's an easy one

Apart from the obvious elitism of this remark, how does one become a top competitive shooter if one is not allowed to start off as an beginning shooter?

One joins a gun club and uses the pistols available there. I could do it tomorrow.

That is the only place that even "top competitive shooters" may use their pistols in any event.

Myself, I have no objection to anyone owning handguns personally. It's the possession of them that's problematic. I think anyone who qualifies for a firearms licence and as a member of a gun club should be able to own a handgun, and prohibited from removing it from the premises where it is used for sports/competitive shooting.

[Deep13]

7. It's use that's problematic, not possession.

And even then it's only problematic if the wrong people use them. I know we do not like to draw artificial distinctions among people. Still, the simple fact is that most people can be divided into criminals and normal people. And the person on the receiving end of a crime should not have to incur the cost of that crime in terms of pain, disability, homelessness or property loss. And even if everyone were theoretically unarmed, all that would mean is that the strongest and meanest among us would have unfettered reign over everyone else, at least until they were caught. I might be able to fend off an attack from a man, unless he had a hammer. My wife can't and neither can my grand parents. The simple fact is that even if all hand guns are good for is killing people (and that is not true), some people ought to be killed. We need to get the idea out of our heads that someone who is intent upon committing violence against innocent victims is worth the same as the people he is terrorizing. He isn't.

A lot of people around here have large gun collections, ones that make my own look quaint by comparison. These folks almost never commit gun crimes.

[iverglas]

10. it's possession that's problematic

The handguns in question in this situation are being stolen by people who are in legal possession of them, in the sense that they have permission to possess them, on certain conditions.

The people in possession of them are failing to ensure that they do not come into the possession of people who use them to facilitate crimes and to kill.

The possession is permitted for limited, specific purposes and on certain conditions. The purpose of those conditions is to prevent firearms from coming into the possession of people who use them to facilitate crimes and kill.

The conditions -- purpose of possession, manner of possession -- are not succeeding in fulfilling that purpose to a degree that is acceptable to much of the Canadian public.

The possession is being permitted for purposes that are of purely private interest, and that private interest, in the minds of much of the Canadian public, does not override the public interest in the safety and security of the society.


I don't really know what you're on about in that post:

And even if everyone were theoretically unarmed, all that would mean is that the strongest and meanest among us would have unfettered reign over everyone else, at least until they were caught.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the situation in issue, and the editorial's recommendation for addressing that situation.


A lot of people around here have large gun collections, ones that make my own look quaint by comparison. These folks almost never commit gun crimes.

Perhaps you imagined that someone was talking about firearms collectors committing gun crimes. Perhaps someone said something about that in some other thread ...


The simple fact is that even if all hand guns are good for is killing people (and that is not true), some people ought to be killed.

The very obvious fact is that you harbour opinions that cannot by any stretch of the imagination be regarded as democratic, Democratic, progressive or liberal.

They still are not remotely relevant to the issue under discussion in this thread, or to anything in the post of mine that you replied to, and look for the most part like gibbering.


edited for clarity

[Deep13]

14. Not conforming to ideology is not the same as being wrong. n/t

[iverglas]

17. o-kay

I was right.

Gibbering.

[Lost in CT]

2. My head explodes from his stupidity... I don't even know where to begin on this one. nt

[iverglas]

5. oh c'mon

Give it a shot.

[iverglas]

3. dung indeed

The gun-grabber beetle writing this editorial ignores the blatant fact that “Easily concealed pistols are the criminal element's weapon of choice” and they are also the weapon of choice for law-abiding citizens who wish to protect themselves against criminals, a task that only totalitarian governments may be able to do.


Best stick to your side of the border, jody. Not because your opinions wouldn't be interesting ... if they were informed. But because they're evidently based on ignorance and thus worthless.

Possession of handguns is already tightly restricted, in theory, in Canada. The editorial on which you are commenting is written in that context. Not in the context of a gun in every pocket and under every bed.

The individuals currently permitted to possess handguns in Canada must qualify as collectors (by demonstrating some minimal knowledge of the subject matter of their hobby) or as sports shooters (by maintaining membership in an approved gun club).

They must store their handguns according to somewhat stringent requirements, including that they be unloaded and stored separately from ammunition.

That's what the editorial is about. Not about your fantasy land, or even the land you live in.


Both collectors and sports shooters have demonstrated themselves, in significant numbers, to be unable or unwilling to comply with the conditions of their licences.

Kimveer Gill belonged to a gun club and practised target shooting regularly. He also killed one student and seriously injured others when he took his guns to Dawson College in Montreal.

Awet Zekarias belonged to a gun club. He took his pistol to town and killed a bystander on a busy sidewalk when he tried to shoot a nightclub bouncer.

Collector after collector has had large quantities of restricted firearms, including handguns, stolen, and the stolen guns have been used to commit crimes and kill.


So jody's commentary ignores the fact that his thoughts on this particular matter are 100% irrelevant. The firearms in question are not possessed by anyone in Canada "to protect themselves against criminals". The actual firearms in actual question are possessed by hobbyists.


I can't parse that sentence to figure out what this task that only totalitarian governments may be able to do might be. If I could, maybe I could figure out whether the well-established and successful liberal democracy functioning in Canada was being called something inaccurate.



typo fixed

[jmg257]

Based on your knowledge/experience, will the owner suffer a penalty(ies) of some sort?

[iverglas]

13. not likely

In the Nicholas Battersby case in Ottawa (the teenaged punks who stole a firearm from a residence and bought ammunition at the local Canadian Tire, and drove around the capital city shooting out the car window, killing Battersby), it was widely reported that the owner of the firearm had it stored illegally. He was never identified or charged.

The firearms storage regulations are sufficiently vague that it might be difficult to prove that a "locked cabinet", as long as other requirements were met (unloaded, ammunition stored separately, I'd have to look them all up again), was not in compliance.

A theft a couple of years ago involved a safe that it took the thieves hours to break into. Sounds safe enough. Problem was, the safe was located in a vacant apartment in a social housing high-rise that the tenant had fraudulently rented and used as a gun storage locker while he lived in the house he owned in Florida ...

The Star's opinion, and I agree, is that there is simply no good reason for such arsenals to be kept on the premises of private residences and businesses.

[jmg257]

21. Since the practical use of such collections is so limited, it would be tough to argue against.

Of course the opinion (no good reason for such arsenals to be kept on private premises) sounds very "unreasonable" to this pro-gunner, but I ain't living there.

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

18. Oh C'mon... that argument's bologna.

Both collectors and sports shooters have demonstrated themselves, in significant numbers, to be unable or unwilling to comply with the conditions of their licenses.

Kimveer Gill belonged to a gun club and practised target shooting regularly. He also killed one student and seriously injured others when he took his guns to Dawson College in Montreal.

Awet Zekarias belonged to a gun club. He took his pistol to town and killed a bystander on a busy sidewalk when he tried to shoot a nightclub bouncer.

Collector after collector has had large quantities of restricted firearms, including handguns, stolen, and the stolen guns have been used to commit crimes and kill.

You name 2 or three instances and act like it's an epidemic. Even if you named every single instance of such an occurrence where collectors and sports shooters have demonstrated or unwilling to comply with the conditions of their licences.... that demographic's number of annual instances where laws were obeyed without incident would fucking DWARF any such misuse-list. The facts are such incidents like described, Virginia Tech, Mall Shootings, Columbine... are statistically insignificant anomalies when compared to the number of lawful uses and possession of firearms in America and Canada. Hell, by your rationale people should leave their cars locked in an impound because licensed drivers have demonstrated themselves, in significant numbers, to be unable or unwilling to comply with the conditions of their licenses.

[iverglas]

20. got some of those things?

Statistics?

that demographic's number of annual instances where laws were obeyed without incident would fucking DWARF any such misuse-list.

I wouldn't really care if you did.

The fact that only two children drowned in unfenced swimming pools in a decade would not persuade me that bylaws requiring fences and locked gates around outdoor swimming pools should be repealed.

The fact that only a small proportion of gun club members violate the conditions of their licences, and only a small proportion of firearms collectors allow their firearms to be stolen, would not persuade me that there is a good reason to permit anyone to possess handguns in homes and businesses.

[iverglas]

6. the event in question

Btw, the Toronto Star (source of the above editorial) is the largest circulation newspaper in Canada, and it's so "liberal" it would make yer southern jaws drop.


http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/local/article/181274

February 13, 2009

Gary Gordaneer collected guns most of his life — but no more.

He was given his first, a .22-calibre repeating rifle, as an 11-year-old boy. By 62, Gordaneer had accumulated as many as 80 weapons, which he estimates were worth about $500,000. “Now, they’re all gone,” says the 65-year-old.

Three years ago, on Feb. 10, 2006, thieves broke into Gordaneer’s Mississauga apartment. They busted through the front door and jimmied open three of the four large metal storage lockers.

The suspects made off with 42 handguns. The heist, one of a string of thefts targeting gun collections, is believed to be the largest cache of weapons stolen from an Ontario gun collector.

It’s an ongoing problem with no end in sight.

This past weekend, 12 legally registered firearms, including 10 handguns, were stolen from a Scarborough apartment in the Neilson Road and Crow Trail area. The weapons, which belonged to a gun club member, were stored in a locked cabinet.

It's probably difficult for furriners to appreciate the significance of these events. Handguns are not available to yer average small-time criminal in Canada. They are in limited supply, and that supply is mainly fed by two sources: cross-border trafficking from the US, and thefts from legal owners in Canada.

Those 10 handguns are not a tiny drop in an ocean of illegally-possessed handguns as they would be in a US city. They each have a potentially very significant effect on criminal activity in Canada, because each one represents a statistically significant addition to the criminal arsenal here.

[Deep13]

8. So, they should be pretty easy to track down...

...and return to the owners.

[iverglas]

15. perhaps you have a suggestion for doing that

Are you imagining that they are equipped with GPS systems?

They're certainly pretty easy to identify once they are used in crimes/murders, and recovered, and traced.

And yup, some weapons stolen in these thefts from "collectors" have been just that.

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

11. "Those 10 handguns are not a tiny drop in an ocean of...

"Those 10 handguns are not a tiny drop in an ocean of illegally-possessed handguns as they would be in a US city. They each have a potentially very significant effect on criminal activity in Canada, because each one represents a statistically significant addition to the criminal arsenal here."

According to a recent paper by Nicholas J. Johnson, Canada has close to 7 million registered guns while is estimated to have about 10 million unregistered guns. Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 10,000,000 unregistered firearms are pistols? It wouldn't surprise me if MOST of those are pistols or other prohibited weapons. A dozen pistols stolen from one guy... heck even a dozen pistols stolen every day... should not be anywhere close in staticstically significant crime contribution in an est. population of 17,000,000 firearms (~60% unregistered).

[iverglas]

16. I don't know

According to a recent paper by Nicholas J. Johnson, Canada has close to 7 million registered guns while is estimated to have about 10 million unregistered guns. Hmmm, I wonder how many of those 10,000,000 unregistered firearms are pistols?

Why don't you find out?


Perhaps you can direct us to this paper. The statement is ludicrous on its face to anyone with minimal familiarity of the situation. And Nicholas J. Johnson is a professor at a university in the US, as far as I can tell.

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

22. Correct, he is a Harvard Grad and Professor @ Fordham (link)

The paper is pretty good, although lengthy for your typical drive-by factoid postings. It's not really written from a Pro or Anti position. It's fairly neutral in outlining the obstacles facing gun control and using gun control as a means to crime reduction. IMO, the author did a good job of keeping personal bias out of the articale, as I am unable to discern his position solely based on the article. I would like to imagine he's pro-gun on some level.

IMAGINING GUN CONTROL IN AMERICA: UNDERSTANDING THE REMAINDER PROBLEM
http://lawreview.law.wfu.edu/documents/issue.43.837.pdf

As for finding out the actual percentage of unregistered pistols??? I cannot say with more than a guess. All that I can offer is "I wouldn't be surprised if most were" for the simple reasons that they're easy to hide, regulated more tightly than longarms, and criminals do favor them (I doubt many criminals register their firearms).

[iverglas]

24. yeah

Maybe you could just quote his statement, and his sources.


All that I can offer is "I wouldn't be surprised if most were" for the simple reasons that they're easy to hide, regulated more tightly than longarms, and criminals do favor them (I doubt many criminals register their firearms).

And they dropped like lawn darts from the sky.

[Indy Lurker]

9. they missed a use

Handguns are very good at stopping criminals, which is why the police use them, and why the second amendment protects ownership, and use in the home.

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

12. Canada does not have the 2nd ammendment. (n/t)

[iverglas]

19. isn't it embarrassing sometimes?

To know so little whereof one speaks, and speak anyway?

Handguns are probably pretty good at propping doors open, too.

That is not a legal use for them in Canada. That is because it would be a violation of the terms of a restricted firearm licence, which requires that when not in use for a purpose permitted by the licence, the handgun be stored safely, locked and separately from ammunition.

[Indy Lurker]

30. I didn't say the Canadian Second ammendment

Does Canada even have a second amendment?


Please re-read my post.

I'm only speaking for myself and my laws.

The fact that Canada doesn't put the same value on defending oneself does not change that fact that handguns are used to stop criminals, or that the second amendment (of the USA) protects ownership and use of said handguns.

[jeepnstein]

23. I could care less...

what they want to do in Canada. They are free to do as they wish. Since I prefer that they butt out of our Constitutional matters I will not comment on theirs.

[iverglas]

25. if only your governments thought the same

Why, we'd have decriminalized at least possession of most drugs up here years ago ...

And a whole lot of countries in the world would have governments that acted in the interests of their people instead of the interests of US governments and corporations. Etc. etc.


You're really quite free to have opinions, and even to express them, you know. We guarantee that in our constitution, if you happen to want to do it on site.

[Deep13]

26. Isn't the obvious solution here to require gun safes?

I've seen "locking cabinates." They are essentially filing cabinates sized for guns. An actual gun safe is almost impossible to break into without the combination or powerful tools. This would not only be a physical barrier to the theft, but knowledge of the requirement would eliminate the motivation for burglary.

[iverglas]

27. the thefts are being carried out

by very well-organized criminal organizations, for the most part. Viz the incident I referred to in an earlier post. If they know there are guns worth getting on premises, they'll get them.

[Deep13]

28. I doubt they are going there with dynamite or air tools.

Anyway, they won't get them if they are shot breaking in.

[iverglas]

33. it would be a little difficult to "get shot breaking in"

to premises where no one is present. Barring booby-traps, which aren't allowed even where you are.

Maybe we just have a cleverer class of criminals.

As I said, these thefts are not being carried out by two-bit drug addicts.

I'll try again to find some reports of the theft to which I referred earlier.

[iverglas]

34. the theft in point

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x119761

The torstar article linked there is no longer available. These are excerpts.

Thieves took two days to break open a safe to steal at least 32 guns
Collector lost $40,000 in firearms
`I'm shattered,' he says of shootings
Jan. 7, 2006. 10:23 AM

ORLANDO, FLA.-Dozens of high-powered weapons that have flooded Toronto streets were stolen from a well-known gun collector and firearms instructor who kept his dangerous stash in a subsidized housing apartment in Scarborough.

One of the guns taken from the apartment was used last September in one of the worst bloodbaths in the history of Toronto - a triple murder near the end of the Summer of the Gun, in a year marked by the worst gun violence the city has seen. Today, the collector, Mike Hargreaves, is a fugitive from Canadian justice, living in a modest, two-storey stucco home a few kilometres from Disney World. Many of the 32 to 35 guns stolen from his Toronto apartment (machine guns, Glock handguns and assault rifles) are still on the streets.

... Police say they have now recovered about 15 of the guns since the New Year's break-in two years ago and that their investigations show the "Gilder guns" were also used in a downtown robbery and a road-rage incident, according to 41 Division Det. Const. Tom Imrie, who led the probe into the break-in.

After the break-in, police issued a warrant for Hargreaves' arrest, claiming the firearms were unsafely stored and improperly imported. The charge against him is not extraditable, so police have to wait for him to cross the border.

... Where have the other guns gone? There are suspicions they have been used in a number of shootings.

... Atkins <charged with the break-in> and co-accused Tyshan Riley, 23, are charged with the Jan. 25 slaying of Omar Hortley, 21, gunned down while walking to friend's house to watch TV in Malvern, a community in northeast Scarborough.

On March 3, 2004, gunmen opened fire on Brenton "Junior" Charlton, 31, and Leonard Bell, 45, who were stopped at an intersection over the dinner hour at Finch Ave. and Neilson Rd.

Those three victims (two died) were random, innocent members of the public.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. Diminishing returns.

At what point does this become useless? The value of pistols to criminal elements in Canada is very high right now. If you remove private possession of firearms, these organized crime elements will probably just rob ranges/legal repositories, or illegally import from other countries.

It seems that requiring owned firearms to be placed in repositories, merely creates a larger, obvious target for thieves. And for smuggling, well, we just caught an entire flight crew down here, smuggling drugs.

I just don't see this getting you to a happy 'end state' of no negligent or criminal use of firearms in crime.

[iverglas]

55. sigh

If you remove private possession of firearms, these organized crime elements will probably just rob ranges/legal repositories, or illegally import from other countries.

Do you actually have some idea of how many gun clubs/ranges there are in Canada?

"Probably just"? "Just"? Cross-border trafficking goes on now. I think you have some idea of why I have direct concerns about private sales especially in the US.

But "just"? Smuggling in firearms is a serious criminal undertaking. It's done in an organized manner, if we're talking about significant numbers. And we have police, and they have investigative methods and resources, and busts are made and rings broken up.

And yes, somebody will always be trying to do it. So? So why bother removing the arsenals they have much easier access to within Canada?


I just don't see this getting you to a happy 'end state' of no negligent or criminal use of firearms in crime.

I don't see anybody suggesting it would.

I do see a great big straw thingy in front of my eyes, though.

[jmg257]

29. Do you think they know there are weapons there, or just getting lucky?

i.e. Are licenses public info? Are the owners being careless?

[X_Digger]

31. When newspapers publish maps..

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=32513b97-0a57-4f06-af25-a13e005b7e5d

(Cant find the original TS article, though..)

And if article commenters' assertions are true that ammunition sales are tracked by stores without a secure method, then that notebook of ammo sales would serve as a perfect shopping list for criminals.

[spin]

32. I love this comment from the article...

Banning legal handguns is nothing more than a victory for symbolism over substance, for activity over achievement.

[iverglas]

37. bon mots from right-wing scum

do tend to go over well in the Guns forum, don't they?

[spin]

41. Well you have to admit that it's at a higher level than....

"I carry a gun because a cop's too heavy."

Of course we could move up to some interesting anti-gun quotes:

"All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party." (Problems of War and Strategy, Nov 6 1938, published in "Selected Works of Mao Zedong," 1965)
Mao Tse Tung:

or one you might like:

"My view of guns is simple. I hate guns and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to own one. If I had my way, guns for sport would be registered, and all other guns would be banned."
(Deborah Prothrow-Stith, Dean of Harvard School of Public Health)

I favor pro-gun quotes:

"A woman who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders."
Larry Elder:

"The ruling class doesn't care about public safety. Having made it very difficult for States and localities to police themselves, having left ordinary citizens with no choice but to protect themselves as best they can, they now try to take our guns away. In fact they blame us and our guns for crime. This is so wrong that it cannot be an honest mistake.
former U.S. Sen. Malcolm Wallop (R-Wy.)

"If the constitutional right to keep and bear arms is to mean anything, it must, as a general matter, permit a person to possess, carry and sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of his private residence or privately operated business."
David Prosser, Wisconsin Supreme Court justice:

all quotes (except the one about carrying a cop) from http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/Gun_Quotes.htm

[iverglas]

36. that's pretty fookin funny

I mean, not that you would cite the National Post, although that's always entertaining too. An editorial from the Post, no less.

No, this from the editorial:

Indeed, that swath of Ontario from Lake Huron in the west to Georgian Bay in the north, around Lake Simcoe through Hastings to Prince Edward County, is veritably bristling with guns.

... But right down in the centre of Toronto, standing out like a strobe light, were several neighbourhoods with two or fewer firearms licences per 100 households. From Pearson International Airport to the Don Valley Parkway, and between the 407 and the Lake, Ontario is nearly gun-free, according to the Star.

But of course, that is exactly where most gun crimes take place. The conclusion to be drawn from the Star's graphic is obvious: The most sensational shootings and highest number of gun murders in Ontario occur within the area that already has by far the lowest levels of legal firearm ownership.

The conclusion is obvious all right. :rofl:

Where's our expert on population density when you need him/her??

Yes, low levels of legal firearm ownership cause gun crime.

Nothing to do with extremely dense populations, neighbourhoods under stress, the concentration of people with problems like poverty and addiction and homelessness and difficulty integrating as newcomers that is found in large cities and not in pastoral preserves like Prince Edward County ...

The editorial mentions Peterborough. Do you know, I once went on a date with a gun shop owner from someplace around there? He came to town where I was living for a big anti-Firearms Act rally ...


Anyhow, I'm not seeing what you're saying about ammunition sales. Or what basis there would be for imagining that any notebooks have been used for anything.

The firearms mostly in issue here are owned by collectors. What do collectors need ammunition for? They are not actually permitted to fire their weapons at all, unless they are also members of a gun club and all that.


Just so you know whom you're quoting here:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/LorneGunter.html

A former managing editor of the now defunct Alberta Report, Lorne Gunter began his journalism career there in 1991, covering federal and provincial politics, including the entry of the Reform party onto that national scene, the 1992 round of constitutional talks that led to the Charlottetown referendum and Alberta's Klein revolution. An occasional panelist on the CBC's The National, Lorne is a regular contributor of commentaries for both CBC Radio and Global Television, as well as for several private radio services. He has published essays and opinion pieces in various newspapers and magazines, including The Globe and Mail, Readers' Digest, National Review, the Weekly Standard and others. Despite his current right-of-centre views, Lorne is a former chief of staff to a minister in the last Trudeau government. He is currently the editorial director of the Canadian Centre for Libertarian Studies, a member of the editorial board of conservativeforum.org and the incoming president of Civitas - a society for conservative and libertarian academics, think-tankers, lobbyists and journalists. A native of Medicine Hat, Alta., Lorne is a graduate of the University of Alberta, is married and has two young children.

Do you know that my picture once appeared on page 1 of Alberta Report?

Makes my skin crawl to think about it.

[X_Digger]

38. The topic was..

How did criminals "find" these collectors. ("Do you think they know there are weapons there, or just getting lucky?")

Were I looking for a house with a gun collection to rob, I'd look at that map to see where density was highest, then go to a tire store that sold ammo (!) in that area and see if I could find their little book that they use to track ammo sales.

(This presupposes that anecdote is true, and that data isn't immediately secured per http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_94a20_e.htm)

eta: link added

[spin]

39. Finding collectors may be easier than you think...

The small Ohio town I grew up in had a rash of stolen coin collections.

Turns out the man who ran the local coin shop was behind the robberies. He became good friends with the collectors and would often have conversations with them. If they mentioned that they planned to leave the town on vacation, he would target their homes.

[iverglas]

35. q and a

Are licenses public info?

Neither the identity of licence holders nor the location of registered firearms is publicly available.

An access to info request did result in a searchable database of registered firearms that identifies the location to a very broad area, like downtown Toronto:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/features/rapidfire/form.html

Are the owners being careless?

In my own opinion, it is careless to have firearms anywhere. Other than that, I would say that anyone who owns a handgun or other restricted firearm, in particular, is very aware that it is a prime target for theft, and a theft itself is prima facie evidence of carelessness.

One doesn't hear about thefts from people licensed as sports shooters. I don't know whether they are less common, or simply don't make the news because they involve one or two items rather than a couple of dozen.

I tend to think that genuine sports shooters are likely more reliable than "collectors".

[gorfle]

40. What's to stop?

What's to stop thieves from breaking into gun clubs and stealing the weapons from there?

Seems to me it would be a fantastic target that would net a much bigger haul.

[marksmithfield]

44. you have to admit

some of the anti-gun arguments put forth here are like clumping cat litter, cohesive but full of shit.

[iverglas]

46. perhaps

things like video surveillance, difficult-to-defeat physical security and on-site human security. Which would be paid for from the fees paid by gun club members.

It really is a little easier to secure one commercial site -- a site where such arrangements are readily verifiable and overseen -- than to verify and oversee the security arrangements made by dozens of individual members of the public at their residences.

We don't get a lot of banks being burglarized up here.

[gorfle]

48. Make it like a bank?

things like video surveillance, difficult-to-defeat physical security and on-site human security. Which would be paid for from the fees paid by gun club members.

It really is a little easier to secure one commercial site -- a site where such arrangements are readily verifiable and overseen -- than to verify and oversee the security arrangements made by dozens of individual members of the public at their residences.

We don't get a lot of banks being burglarized up here.

Well if the plan is to make shooting ranges like banks, all I can say is the price of shooting is going to become astronomical.

I've belonged to some nice shooting clubs that cost me $100 a year, and they didn't have any on-site staff. You just got a key and let yourself in.

A facility like what you are talking about would be a multi-million dollar facility and severely curtail shooting sports.

I think it's a non-starter.

[iverglas]

49. that's there, this is here

I've belonged to some nice shooting clubs that cost me $100 a year, and they didn't have any on-site staff. You just got a key and let yourself in.

That isn't here.

You can google for a few if you like.

In order to get a restricted firearms licence, one must belong to an approved gun club.

In order to be approved, a club has to meet requirements.

Random googling:

http://www.barriegunclub.org/

http://www.racentre.com/raweb/E/Sports/Gun.html

You do not need to own a firearm to join the RA Gun Club. The club owns a variety of firearms that are available for member use, under club supervision, at no extra charge. Our inventory includes a number of .22 LR calibre single shot target rifles, as well as air rifles, and a variety of .22 LR calibre pistols in both semi-automatic (self loading) or revolver styles. The club also owns pistols in .38 special, .357 magnum, .40 S&W, 9 mm, .45 ACP, as well as air pistols. Eye and ear protection is provided, so the only extra cost would be for targets and ammunition used (both are available in the range).

Handgun and rifle shooters must take an internal club safety course. The rifle safety course is available on Tuesday nights once a month at no charge, while the handgun safety course is taught about once a month and a fee of $50 applies. Once you have taken the required course(s) you need not take it again unless you violate a safety rule and you’re asked to repeat the course as a “refresher.”

The club works closely with the Chief Firearms Officer of Ontario to facilitate Authorizations to Transport for those members with their own restricted firearms. The Canadian Firearms Safety Course (Rifles) and the Canadian Restricted Firearms Safety Course (Pistols) are offered at the RA once per month for those needing to obtain their Firearms License (Possession and Acquisition License - PAL). See below for details.

[gorfle]

50. Oh found it.

I checked out both of those pages, and could not find any pricing information for membership.

Also, currently you are not required to store your firearms at the gun club, correct?

No doubt fees would go up to cover such an expense and liability.

I found pricing here:

http://www.racentre.com/raweb/E/Assoc/membership.html
$46 per year is a great price. I've never seen a membership so cheap here in the States. The cheapest I have ever paid is $100 per year and this is for an unsupervised outdoor range.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. Who cares what happens to the sniveling jackasses in Canada?

[marksmithfield]

43. you have to admit

Those wacky Canadians have some silly ideas about who the criminals really are. I would never want to live in a place where I couldn't defend my family. Imagine being on the run because your property was stolen! Even though California has some insane anti gun laws at least Mike Hargreaves can go out and shoot what he owns.

[iverglas]

47. wakey wakey

The nightmare is over, the witch is dead, the Democrats are in power.

You don't have to keep behaving like an ethnocentric xenophobe. Big Brother isn't watching.

http://www.cbc.ca/video/popup_nlp.html?http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/news/features/mansbridge-obama-full090217.wmv
CBC TV interviews Obama ahead of Thursday's visit to Ottawa

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

51. I really thought you would have gotten the sarcasm there.

[iverglas]

52. I

have nicer hearts than you.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. You certainly are sweeter.

[Deep13]

45. Just curious...

...when are Canadian gun prohibition advocates going to start demanding that automobiles and alcohol be banned? Obviously, these things are far, far more dangerous than firearms are. Despite my significant gun collection, my car is the single most lethal thing I own.

[iverglas]

56. you might more relevantly ask

when are Canadian gun prohibition advocates going to start demanding that automobiles and alcohol be banned?

when "Canadian gun prohibition advocates" are going to start advocating the prohibition of guns.

[krispos42]

57. I support a Canadian handgun ban and buyback program

It would be an interesting experiment.

Of course I doubt cthe Canadians will never blame themselves or their laws for any lack of decrease in crime and homicide rates, but that's cool.