the sporting clause and the import ban

[bossy22]

Rep. Engel recently sent a letter to president obama (signed by about 50 other congress critters) urging the president to ban importation of "assault weapons" based on the "sporting clause"

http://engel.house.gov/index.cfm?ContentID=1590&ParentID=7&SectionID=216&SectionTree=7,216&lnk=b&ItemID=1580

now its my personal belief that its only a matter of time before the sporting clause goes the way of the dinosaur or atleast amended to be something like this "a firearm suitable for self defense or sport". I base this on the fact that Heller's holdings were that the core right that the second amendment protected was a right to own a gun for self defense.

[Mugweed]

1. I suppose there's a reason they are called assault weapons.

It's because we have a hard time finding any instances where one was used by a citizen for self defense. Also, it certainly isn't "sporting" to hunt with one.

[jody]

2. Sorry but AW defined in HR 1022 includes most semiautomatic firearms routinely used for self-defense

You really do need to learn more about AWBs to avoid such uninformed assertions.

[jmg257]

3. Hunting with one is just as sporting as any other rifle, especially in states

where there are capacity limits when hunting. Semi-auto rifles may not really offer much of an advantage when hunting as you still have to get back on target. In any case, sometimes a quick follow up shot may be even more sporting, but then why would a a Remington R-15 be unsporting, but a Remmington 742 be? These days they make these super accurate heavy barrel bolt actions that can REALLY reach out there-like sniping wildlife. Fun, but is that sporting? That type of accuracy is also bleeding over to "assault weapons", so again, not much practical difference, as there might be no real advantage to an auto-loader compared to a bolt at such ranges.

I think a semi shotgun helps though compared to a pump, though I used to be able to work a pump pretty damn fast.


Of course, you have to define "assault weapon" 1st, which seems to be changing from what was/is codified in law. Based on recent attempts, more and more models will be covered, which certainly includes those whose primary use is exactly as "sporting" arms.

You are talking what are may be the most popular type of firearm in America (based on quantity made), especially the AR, whose use in sport shooting is very widespread.

[jeepnstein]

4. Huh?

I'm not aware of statistics breaking down lawful self defense with a firearm broken down by type. If you have a source, please share it with the class. All I've been able to find are sea stories and anecdotal evidence. I do know that an AR15 if a formidable weapon for someone barricaded in a room against an intruder waiting for the police to arrive and save the day.

Oh, and it's very sporting to use an AR for hunting. I've used one off and on for years as a varmint rifle. Since you can buy one in more calibers than 5.56 NATO now they are becoming quite popular with hunters.

As far as a sporting use goes, do a Google on Camp Perry.

[gorfle]

6. Yes, there is.

I suppose there's a reason they are called assault weapons.

Yes, there is. They closely emulate military weaponry, as intended.

It's because we have a hard time finding any instances where one was used by a citizen for self defense. Also, it certainly isn't "sporting" to hunt with one.

Remember, the second amendment has nothing to do with sporting uses of firearms.

[krispos42]

7. It's an arbitray, perjorative term that invokes an emotional response.

See: partial-birth abortion, support our troops, drill here drill now.

[TheWraith]

8. You're not making sense.

An "assault weapon" is functionally no different than any other semi-automatic rifle, other than (possibly) clip size. How is it less sporting to go hunting with, say, an AR-15 that fires a 5.56mm round (delivering ~1,775 joules of force), or a 30-06 "hunting" rifle that delivers upwards of 4,000 joules per shot? The 30-06 is the more powerful round.

And rifles of any kind are ill-suited to personal or home defense, as well as being dangerous to use in that capacity. Any rifle bullet is going to punch through walls, and maybe do damage to items or people in the next room or even the next house. A handgun or a shotgun are much better.

[benEzra]

11. That's not the case with civilian .223 loads, at least.

And rifles of any kind are ill-suited to personal or home defense, as well as being dangerous to use in that capacity. Any rifle bullet is going to punch through walls, and maybe do damage to items or people in the next room or even the next house. A handgun or a shotgun are much better.

That's not the case with civilian .223 Remington JHP loads, which typically penetrate less in both wallboard and gelatin than handgun JHP's do. That's one reason why police departments have been replacing 9mm MP5's and such with .223 carbines.

.30 Carbine JHP's are also good defensive rounds with limited penetration. Even lighter 7.62x39mm loads aren't a problem if you live in a brick home, FWIW.

[TheWraith]

12. If you want to talk about ideal, limited-penetration defensive weapons

My recommendation would be the Taurus Judge, which is a revolver designed to fire either .45 Long Colt rounds or .410 bore shotgun shells. Loaded with something like buckshot you'd have limited penetration without the awkwardness of a long shotgun.

Though really, how many people live in a brick home?

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

13. Buckshot would still penetrate moreso than a .223

The reason the .223 doesn't penetrate is because of fragmentation and extremely light weight.
After the first drywall sheet it begins to tumble and fragment. It's only a little 55gr bullet.
A 000 buckshot is actually just about equivalent to firing a handful of 9mm projectiles at once.

Birdshot would DEFINATEYL penetrate the least... but is nearly worthless as a one-shot-stopper.

www.boxotruth.com

[TheWraith]

16. On the contrary, the idea of buckshot-as-9mm-rounds is greatly overstated.

Shotgun shells, either shot or slugs, have a lot less power than a "real" bullet of the equivalent size. A 12-gauge shotgun has an 18mm bore on it, but nobody would compare it to a 20mm cannon in power.

[benEzra]

15. Are brick homes not common where you live?

I live in a 1300-square-foot house in a working-class neighborhood, and half the houses here are brick, including ours. Most of the more upscale neighborhoods in this area seem to be mostly brick.

The Judge is a neat firearm, but the capacity is rather limited for my taste. I'd rather have a 9mm with lightweight JHP's, or a .223 carbine.

FWIW, here's an article on .223 penetration vs. handgun penetration in building materials:

http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=26

The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff

A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers

The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capability for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.

Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.

Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.

(snip)

The following results were obtained:

1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.

2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.

3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.

4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.

(snip)

Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth Nadel, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.

.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

[TheWraith]

17. Around here (in the country) there are some brick homes, but most are not.

I would guess that one out of every 25 outside of town is built with brick, and maybe one out of 10 in the village proper. Are you near a canal or waterway? Sometimes you'll find a lot of brick or stone houses near those because the barges would carry bricks as ballast on some trip legs, and when they were unloaded the bricks would be sold for house building.

[benEzra]

19. I live in a suburban neighborhood in eastern NC,

within 5 or 10 miles of a river as the crow flies, so that is a possibility; I think we may also manufacture bricks in the region. Brick homes are pretty common around here, at least for homes built since the 1970's; they are cooler in the summer, hold up better to sun and humidity than siding does, and withstand hurricanes and other storms better. Brick homes seemed to be pretty common in northwest Florida when we lived there as well, possibly for the same reasons.

Still, if you don't live in a brick home, .223 JHP's offer less wall penetration than a handgun. Brick exterior walls (or no close neighbors) allow you to use light 7.62x39mm JHP's, though, which are similar to the lightest .30-30's.

[S_B_Jackson]

18. I think I'd pass on a Taurus Judge....

Their QC is very hit-and-miss (if you'll pardon the pun)...

[TheWraith]

20. Odd. I'd typically heard good things about them.

Is that yours?

[marksmithfield]

23. Never pry with a pistol!

How did that occur?

[yay]

27. That's a stupid recommendation

The judge is utterly useless. Their quality control sucks, the .410 is nothing but an overexpensive shot shell.

If you're going to buy a revolver, but a quality revolver. If you're going to buy a shotgun, buy a quality shotgun.

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

14. "And rifles of any kind are ill-suited to personal or home defense"

And rifles of any kind are ill-suited to personal or home defense

I would rather have my AR15 than any other weapon at my disposal if i was forced to defend myself.

A) It has 30 rounds.
B) It has limited penetration compared to my other pistols/rifles
C) Longer sight radius is easier to aim quickly
D) I couldn't imagine being on the business end of an AR blast... blinding/deafening.

The ONLY reason I see it being a disadvantage is that it is larger than a pistol and less maneuverable.
But for a long gun, an AR is awefully compact.

[Taitertots]

25. I would disagree

I would prefer a pistol.

A) Can accept 30 round magazines
B) Shorter sight radius, I find easier to aim at things that are close
C) Maneuverable

The main reason is ability to have an open hand. Should you need to open a door, use a phone, or pick-up and carry anything.

[benEzra]

9. This is an "assault weapon" according to H.R.1022.

So is this:



They're called "assault weapons" to get people to turn their brains off and blindly support outlawing the MOST POPULAR CIVILIAN RIFLES IN THE UNITED STATES. They dominate centerfire target shooting (both recreational and competitive), and are the most common defensive carbines in U.S. homes.

[Taitertots]

21. What is not "sporting" about it?

Everyone I know that hunts uses at least one semi-automatic regularly for hunting.

[Hoopla Phil]

5. Why is it that so many believe that in order for a firearm to be "sporting"

something has to be killed? I have lots of fun in shooting "sports" that do not involve killing something. BUT! Those firearms for some reason are not considered "sporting" by these folks.

[benEzra]

10. Indeed.

"Assault weapons" are the most popular sporting rifles in America, if you include target shooting instead of confining the definition to just hunting.

[Longteeth]

26. So the Civilian Marksmanship Program is not sporting???

I'm confused.

[Longteeth]

22. What a stupid Efing law.

[marksmithfield]

24. No kidding

Gun grabbing vermin. Washington is full of them.

[yay]

28. Never heard of competition shooting?

I take it you've never heard of competition shooting eh? USPSA pistol and 3 gun practical shooting, ISPS pistol and 3 gun practical shooting are both VERY sporting using some of the rifles you would wish banned from importation. There are a host of other shooting leagues both national and international using a wide variety of firearms you would deem "non-sporting".

Just remember hunting is not the only thing guns are good for.

[Longteeth]

29. Don't forget the U.S. Govt sponcered Civilian Marksmanship Program