Is Obama responsible for this?

[doc03]

My brother called me yesterday evening. Here's what happened, he got in a financial jam a couple months ago and pawned a .22 rifle and a 44 mag revolver. He goes to the pawn shop and pays for his guns and he has to fill out the ATF bullshit paperwork and it comes back denied. The ATF gave no reason just that he was not permitted to own or purchase a firearm. These guns belonged to my father and he purchased them at least 50 years ago. My brother is 16 years younger than myself and he had used the guns all his life and when my dad passed on 19 years ago my brother kept them. Nobody in my family, my father, brothers or myself have ever been charged with anything other than a traffic violation. The gun dealer said when Obama took office that he had the ATF put hundreds of thousands of people on the gun ban list. I was able to pick up the rifle today myself and have to pay a transfer fee to have our own handgun transferred to Ohio so I can pick it up Monday. They told me that I couldn't legally pick the guns up for my brother and give them to him, that I could be charged with a felony for willfully supplying guns to someone that is not permitted to own firearms. They also told my brother if he has any other guns in his possession he better get rid of them. So now he has to file an appeal with the ATF to get his name cleared. I had to bring all my brothers guns to my house today for safe keeping. These guns if purchased new today would run in the area of $1200. If Obama is responsible in any way for this I hope he gets kicked the hell out of Washington.

[babylonsister]

1. Factcheck: False: Obama is proposing no such ban.

Maybe your brother has a record you're not aware of? This whole link is informative...

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html

snip//

Kurt Rusch: Like all the guys I fought with in Iraq, I was honored to defend our country and our freedom. But when I got back stateside, I learned that Barack Obama opposes my right to own a handgun for self -defense. It's ridiculous.

Out there in the desert, defeat was not an option. Sure, combat was hell, but on the frontline, I knew I served a real purpose. Defeating terrorism. Protecting our way of life. That's what it's all about. There's no way I'm voting for a president who will take that away.

The freedoms that I fought for and my friends died to defend. I served my country on the battlefield to protect our freedom. There's no way I'm voting for a president who will take them away.


False: Obama is proposing no such ban.


This falsehood from the "10 point plan" flier is repeated in a TV spot in which a man identified as Kurt Rusch, an Iraq war veteran says, "Obama opposes my right to own a gun for self-defense."

The NRA bases this overheated claim on a vote Obama cast on March 24, 2004, in the Illinois state Senate. He was one of 20 who opposed SB 2165. That bill, which passed 38 - 20 and became law, did not make it a crime to use firearms for self-defense, however. Rather, it created a loophole for persons caught violating local gun registration laws.

It states that in any Illinois municipality where a gun ban is in effect, it shall be an "affirmative defense" if the person accused of violating the ban can show that the weapon was used "in an act of self-defense or defense of another ... when on his or her land or in his or her abode or fixed place of business."

Letting the owner of a banned firearm escape a municipality's penalty is one thing, but it's another thing entirely to make it a crime to use any firearm – registered or not – in self-defense. The bill came about after Hale DeMar, of Wilmette, Ill., shot a burglar who had invaded his home. At the time, Wilmette had an ordinance that prohibited owning handguns.

Clarification: To avoid any confusion, we've modified this section to make clear the bill would have pertained to municipalities with local gun bans.

[doc03]

10. It's fact, not any proposal they are denying my brother's

Constitutional rights and this has just come about in the last month. HOW?

[doc03]

20. Why should my brother or anyone else have to

fill out the damn ATF form to get your own guns back. These guns were purchased years before any of the ridiculous firearms laws from the 60's existed. Now I can't give my brother back his own guns without being charged with a felony. Yet I could go out on the street or to any gun show and sell it to Charlie Manson as long as I didn't know who he was perfectly legal like. These guns were one of the few possessions my father left us to remember him by. I have a violin, my brother has a couple guns of my dads and an old muzzle loader from my GG Grandfather. I could place more people in danger if I tried playing the old violin than my brother would with the guns.

[Scout]

28. "one of the few possessions my father left us to remember him by"

and your brother PAWNED them? wow, how sentimental he is

[doc03]

35. He works a low paying job has a daughter at home

and pays child support to his x. He was too proud to ask anyone for money to get out of some financial problems so he pawned them a couple weeks until he got his tax refund to get them back. Isn't that you would call pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? I got news for you there are lots of people that don't have money and get in a jam a have to go to a payday loan place or pawn something. You sure have a lot of sympathy for for someone down on their luck you jackass. The guns are in my possession and in excellent shape only now because of some stupid firearms law enacted because people in the big cities live like animals he can't have them back.

[Scout]

39. take a deep breath honey

if you don't want people to post opinions of your personal shit, don't put it out there for everyone to see. asswipe.

[doc03]

40. This had nothing to do with any personal shit

some jackasses like yourself steered it that way by immediately trying to change the subject and putt the blame on the victim of an injustice. I tried to clarify the situation for you, the subject of the whole post was the ATF revoking an American citizen's Second Amendment Rights to own or purchase a firearm. I would guess you are one of those anti-gun nuts that thinks nobody should own one except a criminal. The ATF background check does absolutly nothing to stop crime all it does is make it a hassle for the law abiding citizen. Last week a man strangled his wife and 11 year old son to death then shot himself, over finantial problems. Maybe he didn't want to go to a payday loan office or pawn his father's gun so he took the honorable way out I quess according to you.

[Scout]

41. you go ahead and keep guessing, and making shit up about other posters

no skin off my nose for you to make yourself look stupid

[krispos42]

31. Whenever a licenced dealers transferrs a firearm...

...the recipient has to go through a background check. It's to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

Now either your brother is on the list wrongly for one of a variety of reasons, or your brother has a conviction for a felony, misdemeanor domestic abuse, or a restraining order.

Your brother may not even be aware of legal issue that is preventing him from recieving the guns, or he's embarassed by it and shifting blame to Obama instead.

[doc03]

36. Criminals don't go to a gun shop and go through a

background check to buy a gun they steal them, that's why they are called criminals.

[krispos42]

43. They used to until the background checks

The law was in fact rather useless as a preventive measure until then.


However, you must also remember that some, perhaps many, people that get rejected for a gun purchase don't realize that they've become ineligable for gun ownership. I believe that any domestic violence conviction invalidates you, so a guy that thinks "hey, I've never been busted for a felony so I can go get me that new shotgun Remington makes" winds up getting rejected.

[safeinOhio]

2. They give you the reason you are denied.

I think your brother is holding out on you about his past. My friend got denied in OH and they told him it was because of an old pot charge when he was a teen. Go to a real gun store, not a pawn shop and find out.

[doc03]

4. I know my brother has never been charged with no such

things other than a traffic violation. It's not the pawn shop denying anything it's is the ATF. It's not any kind of law he is proposing according to what I heard it's apparently one of those Executive orders he made. They said thousands of people have been put on the firearms ban list and they had the same problem with several people in just the last month. Don't blame the dealer it's the government. The ATF would not give any reason they just said you can file paperwork to get your name cleared and handed him a form. He has also bought guns within the last year with no problems.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. Could be a restraining order.

[doc03]

8. He has lived in the state of WV for about two

years and his only charge was driving with a broken tail light and an expired registration sticker. That was actually the reason he pawned the guns to pay the fine and have his registration, inspection and the other BS taken care of. It is not the state of WV it is the Federal governments ATF that is saying he can no longer possess a firearm.

[HillbillyBob]

3. You might want to look a little further back. Bushco put me on

the no fly list and no guns list, even Rep John Conyers could not find out why.
Im not a felon, my only 'crime' is speaking out against ( * ) illegal 'election' when we saw our ballots taken from our polling place in 2000 and put directly into truck mounted shredders, that is ALL of the ballots from our polling place in Fort Lauderdale. I had also had my phones and emails tapped, threatening phone calls and emails, our house ransacked too. Mr Conyers did an FOIA request and it was denied and he was told that NSA and FBI do not release information about on going active dossiers that was in 2005. We moved from Fl to NC and that is where the most of the phone calls came to an unlisted unplublished phone number, and our house was searched while we were out, from the descriptions given to us by neighbors whne we asked about our doors standing wide open in Feb 05 they said government tags on black Crown Victorias. I live in the woods now.
( * ) signed a bunch of executive orders on his way out the door that no one (as in us chickens) knows what was in them.
I hope it was not Obama, it sounds like something dimples would do just to be a shit.

[Trajan]

5. "If Obama is responsible in any way for this I hope he gets kicked the hell out of Washington."

Yeah .... Because everybody knows that your brother having gun-joy is WAY more important than any other problems we might be having ....

What do you say ? .... Shall we have a REVOTE ?

[doc03]

6. You're damn right, him and the VP campaigned all

over the country and made it a point to say we are not going to take your guns when in rural areas.

[Trajan]

7. Yeah ....

I'm damned right !

And YOU are damned Right !

[Scout]

29. excellent!

:rofl:

[movonne]

16. Gee this breaks my heart....

[doc03]

9. Yes it is far more important than anyone being President

it's the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the US. As far as I am concerned Obama you or anyone else that denies me my rights is nothing more than a traitor. If you are worried about me having a gun move to Cuba where only Castro has the guns or New York where only the crooks have them.

[babylonsister]

11. Then you find a link to prove President Obama instituted some

law that's impacting your brother. :shrug:

[movonne]

15. I agree with you...

[jody]

12. Please post new facts as you learn them. I'm very interested in the source of this ATF policy. n/t

[iverglas]

13. absolutely

He is also the reason your ice cream won't stay frozen, and you get holes in the toes of your socks.

And I'll bet you've noticed how unseasonably cold it has been in recent weeks.

What, you thought that was, like, coincidence?

[X_Digger]

14. Did he give his SSN?

On the 4473, SSN is optional, but is used if provided to identify folks. If another person with the same name and age were convicted, it may have snagged your brother instead.

If he did include his SSN, then he has to contact the ATF in writing and jump through some hoops to prove he is who he says he is, then they'll inform him of why he was disqualified..

http://www.peoplesrights.org/articletemplate.asp?id=46

[doc03]

17. I don't know but I didn't give them my SSAN

and the approval came through in like 2 minutes. He contacted his lawyer and asked him if his traffic charge could have caused this and he was told it should not have at all. Stuff like this really bothers me because I stuck up for Obama in the election when all my friends were telling all the restrictions he was going to put on firearms. I told everyone it was nothing more than NRA lies now it appears I may have been had by another Democrat. Here's some things I have heard, they are going to tax ammunition off the market, they are going to limit the kind and amount of ammo you can purchase, they are going limit the number and type of firearms you can buy. Of course he is going to put a new even more restrictive AWB in effect. Here on DU you have people that will deny all of that and others that will give you a link where he said those very things in certain areas during the campaign.

[X_Digger]

18. Also..

If he had enough unpaid parking / speeding tickets to get a warrant sworn out on him, he would qualify as a 'fugitive from justice'. The link I provided above lists other disqualifying criteria (like having a protective order sworn out against him, etc.)

[safeinOhio]

19. My friend that got denied, this was a little over a year ago,

Had been buying guns all along. He was told by Deputy friend that because of 9/11 and the Bush NSA that many more were being denied. My guess is it's more Bush's doing than Obama.
I still don't trust any pawn broker. They are some of the lowest people on earth.

[doc03]

22. The pawn broker had nothing to do with the thing. n/t

[iverglas]

21. "I may have been had by another Democrat"

Oh, no! Not another Democrat!

Who was the first one? Do tell. The second? third? Have you been had by lots of Democrats?

And still you vote for them.

You're a right forgiving soul, aren't you?


Here's some things I have heard, they are going to tax ammunition off the market, they are going to limit the kind and amount of ammo you can purchase, they are going limit the number and type of firearms you can buy. Of course he is going to put a new even more restrictive AWB in effect. Here on DU you have people that will deny all of that and others that will give you a link where he said those very things in certain areas during the campaign.

I'm absolutely positive that here on DU you will also find people who claim to communicate with spirits.

Hmmmmm.

Maybe you should go tell them these things you're hearing and get them to run a spirit check for you. Maybe that's where they're coming from.

[RamboLiberal]

38. If he has a common kind of name and he didn't give his SSN

then possibility exists the NICS id'ed on the wrong person who can't legally own a firearm. Every time I've gone through NICS on a firearm purchase I had to put my SSN on the paperwork.

As to you're having to pay a fee to ship your firearm over the line to Ohio - blame the states and state's rights advocates who all want their own friggin' laws on firearms and their own control. That's Dems and Repubs alike. I live in PA close to WV and OH and it is a pain. Last year I won a gun in WV and had to make a special trip to a FFL I know who happened to be at the same shoot and brought it across the line for me. I paid him with a $50 gift certificate I had won for some bullets for reloading.

[benEzra]

23. Has he ever been served with a restraining order, even a routine pro forma one?

That can get you denied, as can having the same name as a prohibited person (put your SSN on the form to clarify that). Unpaid traffic tickets can also get you denied, in some states, and the neocons and Brady Campaign types are trying to get those on the Secret Terrah Blacklist reclassified as prohibited persons as well.

And no, Obama is not at fault. The NICS-check-to-get-your-own-guns-back was instituted during the Bush I or Clinton years, I don't recall which.

[doc03]

24. The whole background check is just ridiculous

I can't buy a gun in a neighboring state, they have to ship my gun a mile away to Ohio and I have to pay $40 for my inconvenience. Just how does that prevent a crime? Short of a violent crime committed with a gun there should be no way they can deny any person their right to own a gun. I have stated numerous times his only charge in the last probably 5 years was a minor traffic violation and nothing more than that ever. I wonder if they even have to give a reason as to why a person is denied?

[X_Digger]

25. Yes they have to give a reason..

.. but they don't give it at the time of disapproval (the link above details how to find out). The dealer doesn't get any information on the disqualification.

[iverglas]

26. please please please

Be sure to come back and tell us the answer, once your brother finds out.

I shall bookmark the thread to be sure not to miss it!

[jeepnstein]

27. More information is needed.

Denials and Appeals

Pursuant to the requirements addressing the process for filing an appeal as outlined in Sections 103 and 104 of the permanent provision of the Brady Act, individuals who believe that they were wrongfully denied the transfer of a firearm based on a record returned in response to the NICS background check process may request that the denying agency or the NICS Section provide the reason for said denial. The denying agency or the NICS Section must provide the individual with the information in writing within five business days after receipt of the appeal. Individuals directly addressing the NICS Section may request the reason for their denial by writing to:

Federal Bureau of Investigation
NICS Section
Appeal Services Team
Module A-1
Post Office Box 4278
Clarksburg , WV 26302-9922

Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 25.9(b) (1), (2) and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day. The Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) process permits applicants to request that the NICS maintain information about them in the VAF to prevent future denials or extended delays of a firearm transfer.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nics_overview.htm

This is from the ATF's web site. I would suggest you have your brother contact them before this happens again. Since I don't know you or your brother I can't even venture a guess about why he'd get denied. In this day and age of identity theft I'd sure want to know the basis for the denial if it were me.

I haven't heard of any kind of black listing done by the Obama Administration. How would they know who they wanted listed anyway?

Good Luck!

[benEzra]

30. They have inherited the Bush Administration's secret terrah blacklist...

and the repubs at the Brady Campaign, plus a few DLC'ers, want to perpetuate it, and reclassify blacklisted individuals as prohibited persons under the Gun Control Act of 1968. The Brady Campaign calls letting blacklisted individuals keep their rights the "terror gap."

http://www.bradycampaign.org/issuesarchive/terrorgap/

Those "known or suspected terrorists" are the "known or suspected terrorists" who have been listed on the official blacklist. Those "terrorists" include Senator Edward Kennedy, environmental activists, peace protesters, Medal of Honor recipients, people who have attended the wrong mosque, people who have been placed on the list to meet quotas, etc.

[doc03]

33. So you are guilty and the burden is on you to

clear yourself, where the hell do we live the USSR? This is one of the things the Republicans said a Democratic Administration would do. Now he had no problem for years buying guns then out of the blue 4 weeks after a Democrat takes office we have a problem, just what are we supposed to think? I don't claim to be the sharpest knife in the drawer but usually if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck.

[iverglas]

42. "guilty" of what?

Was your brother fined? jailed? sent to death row?

No. He was denied authorization to acquire a firearm. He was not found guilty of anything. He was not punished for anything in any way.

I forgot to check ... you're still here as I type, are you? Surrounded by these hordes of horrible quacking Democrats? How can you stand it?

[slackmaster]

32. It's probably the result of someone with the same name being in the NICS database

Your brother needs to appeal the ruling.

[RamboLiberal]

37. Did I happen on to Free Republic by accident?

That's the biggest load of BS I've heard that Obama being in office for 4 weeks has had the time to add thousands and thousands of people to the an NICS list. BTW that is run by the FBI.

The pawnbroker might've screwed up when calling in for your brother, or the person at the other end of the line might've screwed up in looking up the records. Or someone with name similar to your brothers did some crime or has a PFA order or a warrant out on them or someone stole your brother's identity and did a crime on it. Or your brother did something that got him on the list he just ain't telling you about! Could also be a local or state LE agency that reported something wrong to the NICS system.

As to all the other laws your bitchin' and moanin' about - well they've been on the books for quite awhile. Boo Hoo.

Quit your bellyachin' and blaming Obama for this. If you're to blame anybody blame the damn Repukes - they were the ones in charge of the congress for 12 of the last 14 years and in charge of the presidency and the courts for most of the last 8 years. Its their people who are running the NICS, FBI and ATF.