I was involved in a defensive shooting today

[virginia mountainman]

For the first time, I drew and fired my sidearm in self-defence earlier today. It was totaly unexpected, and I literally had seconds to react. I went from cooking on the stove, to gun fire in less than 30 seconds.

It all started, this afternoon as I was cooking supper for the kids, so they would have hot food as they get home from school. As they got off the bus, our young fox hound, ran down to meet them at the bus stop (as she normally does) but this time two large stray dogs came out of the woods and viciously attacked her in my yard, with my kids standing by her

I heard the wild commotion from the kitchen, and as I ran out the door of my home, I grabbed my Glock 36 .45 out of the desk drawer, where it stays if it is not on me. As I run across the porch, and across the yard to my kids, who are literally standing a few feet away from our small hound, who is literally getting ripped to shreds by the much larger dogs.

As I run across the yard, I scream at my kids to run, and when they get in the clear, I fired two warning shots into the woods right behind the dogs, I could not get a clear shot at her attackers, without the chance of hitting her, so I tried to break up the fight, it worked. They beat a fast retreat to the woods. I was unable to get a good shot at either of her attackers, so they got away

Our family pet, is hurt, I have treated her wounds, the best I can, and she my go to the vet in the morning.

I shudder to think, what if one of my young kids had tried to stop the fight, just how badly would they have been mauled?

Thank you Gaston Glock, for your fine sidearm, when I needed it's help, it was their, and ready.

Now I need to deal with these stray dogs......

[Critters2]

1. She was "literally getting ripped to shreds" but

"she may go to the vet in the morning"...?


Hmmm...something doesn't ring true.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

3. Hyperbole?

:shrug:

[Critters2]

9. So, the word "literally" literally doesn't mean "literally"? nt

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

13. Literally!

[KurtNYC]

59. Thanks to the non-stop barrage of hyperbole by the MSM "literally" now has 2 meanings

The first is the traditional one and the second one means "figuratively." (?!)

This is part of the ongoing breakdown of the language, where the word "so" is an adjective.

Like y'know what I mean?

[Scout]

63. KurtNYC, you have to learn, words don't have the same meanings

here in the gungeon, as they do in the rest of the world.

[virginia mountainman]

4. Was you their??

She is hurt, she has hunks torn out of her belly, and legs, and the vet is a long ways away...We got her patched up, and she is resting right by the wood stove.

[Critters2]

6. If she really has "hunks torn out of her belly", she'd be in danger of

bleeding to death and/or peritonitis. A dog at risk of those things needs to see a vet immediately. Either you made this up, or you're a neglectful dog owner.

And that doesn't even touch on your elegant use of the language. Was I their? Seriesly?

[virginia mountainman]

8. do what?

She is not bleeding, that is why...and don't be casting aspersions. We had a plethora of medical supplies on hand (my wife is a trauma nurse, and she carries supplies in the car) as I said, she is well taken care of.

Neglect would have been letting them wild dogs "finish her off"

[Critters2]

11. So, these dogs tore "hunks" out of her belly without causing bleeding?

They were both wild dogs and skilled surgeons?

Really. It doesn't ring true.

But you're right. I weren't their.

[liberal renegade]

17. wear was ya

if ewe wurnt their?

[Critters2]

47. Eye wurn't know wear neer their. nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. You do realize it's possible to control bleeding right?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. I'm sorry you are just plain wrong.

It is quite possible for chunks of flesh to be missing and have the bleeding controlled and have no organ damage. Some people don't have an emergency vet in remotely close proximity.

David

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. I spoke with a man who grew up in Cuba.... told me that one of

his dogs had his leg ripped open by I want to say another dog.... what they did was, saturate the damaged areas with aloe vera gel daily... and he proudly stated that when things healed up you could hardly tell there was ever any damage to the area. Aloe is for more than just burns.

[paulsby]

90. hell ya

I used to do a lot of surfing in out of the way areas (deep jungle costa rica for instance) where medical assistance was - what you had with you.

My survival kit was some silk to stitch stuff up, some needles to stitch with, antibiotics, some bandages, tape, and... aloe vera.

aloe vera IS great for burns, but it also helps healing as you say

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=97941&page=1

[Jamastiene]

7. ...

:bounce:

[Th1onein]

85. THIS is the kind of shit I HATE about DU

Leave the man alone, guys. He isn't the most precise writer in the world, but he was excited and upset about his dog being attacked. He comes here to tell his story and you guys start that kind of crap.

[Mugweed]

144. Sounds like a great story of how a gun didn't help for shit.

Not really upping the "that's why I NEED a gun" argument.

[geckosfeet]

2. Glock in the desk drawer. No need to say more.

[virginia mountainman]

5. Yep, It works wonders when the cops are about an hour away. NT

[liberal renegade]

18. is the glock under lock?

[geckosfeet]

25. Of course. There is always a perfectly sensible reason why a loaded

firearm is easily accessible.

[DrCory]

106. Then Why the Snark in Post #2? N/T

[ColesCountyDem]

93. Those of us who live in the country tend to view firearms differently than do 'city folk'. n/t

[rgbecker]

12. Here, we have a leash law. Loose dogs are fair game. n/t

[Suich]

14. I hope your pup is ok!

Sorry your kids had to see that...:hug:

[billyoc]

15. Fast thinking, hope your hound's OK.

:hi:

[OffWithTheirHeads]

16. My Shitzu was attacked on two seperate occasions

By a Pit Bull and a Rotwieller. I've never felt more helpless in my life. The second attack resulted in my wife having a broken ankle, losing her job as a result, and massive vet bills. I only wish I had been armed at the time.

A Glock in the drawer is worth two in the store.

[X_Digger]

19. I feel your pain..

Growing up in Grundy, Va, we didn't have access to a 24 hour vet, so when our dogs would get into trouble (why is it always nights and weekends!) we always had to wait until the next morning. More than once I had to wash and clean, then put sterile gauze over a gaping wound, dose kid's dosage pain killers and hope for the best in the morning.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

20. Having experienced what you have been through,

I hope that your dog is O.K. and I commend you for the action you took.

I would do most anything to protect my new dogs. They are as much a part of my family as children. Good on you.

[virginia mountainman]

24. Thanks for the kind words!!

All of you, who had kind words and thoughts!

EDIT, the way some of the posters above are acting, makes me believe that they would rather have seen our pet killed for some reason.

[iverglas]

21. right ... so ...

As I run across the yard, I scream at my kids to run, and when they get in the clear, I fired two warning shots into the woods right behind the dogs, I could not get a clear shot at her attackers, without the chance of hitting her, so I tried to break up the fight, it worked. They beat a fast retreat to the woods. I was unable to get a good shot at either of her attackers, so they got away

Basically, you wasted what could have been essential moments getting hold of a gun that did you absolutely no good whatsoever in achieving the desired outcome in the situation.

When trying to break up a dog fight, I think an intelligent person grabs a shovel, a broom, a large piece of lumber, a garden hose ... Who would 'a thunk that s/he might not "get a clear shot" at a particular dog engaged in a dog fight? Gosh. Dog bites man, I think.

I'm thinking there must have been a story here somewhere, and I'm just not seeing it.

Nah.

[virginia mountainman]

23. Wow Iverglas...Some really good ideas their...

Shovels are in the shed, 50 yards from the house.

Broom?? are you serious?? These where large dogs.

Lumber, I don't keep lumber on hand...I buy what I need for projects, and the scrap becomes kindling

Garden Hose?? It is winter...It is put up in the aforementioned shed

No good?? The shots had the desired effect, and the desk the gun was in, was between the kitchen and the front door...

[iverglas]

29. who knows, perhaps I misunderstood something

I fired two warning shots into the woods right behind the dogs, I could not get a clear shot at her attackers, without the chance of hitting her, so I tried to break up the fight, it worked.

"It worked". I read that as "I tried to break up the fight and it worked". I assumed you waded in.

You mean firing the shots into the woods worked?

Basically, a loud noise scared them off?

So, like, taking two the pots by your hand where you were cooking in the kitchen and banging them together repeatedly would have done the trick?

Pots are also considerably less problematic when left around the home accessible to children. I'll have to check what the answer was to that question about whether the gun was under lock and key. Like a desk drawer is an intelligent place to keep a firearm in any event.

[virginia mountainman]

35. Pots?? LOL !!!!

Pots?? WOW, I was standing in the kitchen...I had no idea what exactly was going on, all i heard was dogs, and my kids screaming....

Pots would have been damn ineffective if those dogs where relentlessly attacking my kids.....

And as for the condition of my defensive firearm, that is a personal matter that only my family and I know about. So I chose not to discuss it on a Internet forum.

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. iverglas does not approve of armed response with a firearm

Whether vicious dogs or a lunatic with a bow and arrow, unarmed response or improvised weapons
are all she believes necessary. And since she believes this, it must be so.

Unfortunately, DUers might
actually need guns to deal with rabid animals like these>

[iverglas]

55. friendly_iconoclast does not believe in making true statements

or sense.

Apparently, s/he also does not know that it is against DU rules to post links to freerepublic at this website, let alone to do it in a manner that might prompt DU members to click on a freerepublic link without knowing what it was.

[friendly_iconoclast]

83. My statement regarding your disdain for armed response was quite true

whether you care to admit it or not.

I apologize for the link to FreakRepublic. However, I plead necessity, as people of the sort
who post that kind of thing will not be stopped by logic, good vibes, moral superiority, or a 2X4.

Some of these neo-Confederates mean to kill, and won't be put off by passive resistance.
President Obama's election has greatly disturbed the Dominionists(Christian Taliban)/white supremacists.

We may be forced to decide if we wish to emulate the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., or
the Deacons For Defense and Justice.

[8 track mind]

111. oh jeeze

yeah lets get close to possibly rabid, hungry, viscious animals and give 'em a good whack upon the 'ol noggin with a frying pan!!!! Yeah makes perfect sense!!

:rofl:


It's apparent that some of these people have never been bitten by a crazy dog. It hurts like hell and it's terrifying.

No thanks, i'll stick with firearms

[iverglas]

113. indeed

Now you might want to read the actual discussion here, and perhaps say something minimally intelligent about what was actually being said.

[Critters2]

46. Apparently, the dogs were scared off by the sound of the gun shots.

The same thing could have been accomplished with an air horn. And if one's kids find an air horn in a desk drawer, no one's likely to get killed.

But then one couldn't post a cool story on the interwebs about how one loves one's guns.

[friendly_iconoclast]

48. And if said air horn *hadn't* worked?

Do tell us how VM should have proceeded, in your estimation.

[Critters2]

68. What if the sun comes up in the west tomorrow.

It did work.

[virginia mountainman]

52. HALT!!! OR I WILL HONK!!!!!!

That is ridiculous...And worthy of ridicule.

What do you mean "Likely"?? 20,000,000 gun owners did absolutely nothing wrong

And how effective would an air horn be in a life or death situation, against a determined attacker?

[iverglas]

60. what happened to the dogs?

I thought this thread was about dogs, and how essential it was to have a glock in a handy desk drawer to scare said dogs away with ....

20,000,000 gun owners did absolutely nothing wrong

20 million gun owners used guns to scare dogs??

How does anybody get any sleep down there?

[Critters2]

69. So, as I suspected, this thread wasn't really about how a gun helped you

in this situation. It's about how you love your gun. The situation you posted about said nothing about a life or death situation, nor a determined attacker. It was about a situation where a loud noise scared off some dogs. Any loud noise would've had the same effect.

[RaleighNCDUer]

81. And I suspect it was as much the large person screaming and running

toward them, as much as the gunshots (which aren't really all that loud in the open) which spooked the dogs.

[marksmithfield]

61. you anti gun types

are really something. Here is a man defending his children and pets, and you seriously hate the fact he was able to do so. I am awaiting news of your attempt at fending off an attack by a pitbull or two with an airhorn. A good friend went outside Thanksgiving morning a few yrs back to see what was up with his dog. She was being attacked by a large male shepard who had jumped the fence. He tried to break it up with a hose and the shepard turned on him. It grabbed his left arm and he was able to get his buck knife out of its sheath and started stabbing it. His 14yr old son was able to run out in the yard and shot the dog twice before it let go. He spent the rest of Thanksgiving in surgery to repair muscle damage. I seriously doubt an air horn would have killed that dog or even scared it.

[mimitabby]

67. i was thinking two frying pans

You need a gun (that might hurt your kids or your dog) to make a loud noise?

[AtheistCrusader]

95. Seriously?

You assume a ~115 decibel air horn would have the same effect as a .45ACP pistol, which will generate around 160 decibels of noise, more depending on the pressure of the load, normal, +P, +P+, etc. db is a logarithmic scale. An air horn you might use to heckle people at a stadium doesn't even compare.

Could it have worked? Maybe. Did the pistol work? Yes.

Storage of our 'go time' guns is our own business. He is probably intentionally obfuscating the location, becuase telling everyone in the world exactly where you store your firearms is a great idea, right?

[Raskolnik]

78. Right...so...

someone used a gun to protect his children and his pet from attacking dogs, he accomplished just that, no one was hurt, and it appears that no one acted irresponsibly, BUT you don't approve of it because there might have been other means available that wouldn't have offended your political sensibilities.

Isn't it exhausting living everyone else's lives for them?*










*I'll save you the trouble: IVERGLAS: "Isn't is exhausting going round and round the mulberry bush pretending that a certain someone said something that that a certain someone wouldn't have said if the topic being discussed was hypothetically at issue when the certain someone was present, which has not been proven to my satisfaction and if you ever imply that is has been I will be positively gobsmacked about wherever you got such a notion. Mu."

[iverglas]

86. snort

someone used a gun to protect his children and his pet from attacking dogs, he accomplished just that

I'm sure there are people who "use" their guns to tenderize steak, too. Prop windows open. Scratch their bums. Just like this gun was "used" to do all that, and accomplished it. And they accomplish it all.

And it's their gosh darned constitutional right to do it!

:rofl:

[Raskolnik]

88. And the fact that people use their guns in ways that don't harm or endanger anyone else bothers you.

If someone wants to use their gun to scratch their ass, what possible business is it of yours?

It clearly annoys you that people are, from time to time, able to responsibly manage their own lives in a way which may include the possession or even the use of a firearm. The fact that it bothers you when a person does so without harming or endangering another person doesn't exactly reflect well upon your motivations in these discussions, I must say.

And iverglas, really...an animated smiley-face? I had thought you were above things like that.

[AtheistCrusader]

94. In fairness

the concussion/report of a .45 going off, is a bit more of an attention-getter than waving your arms and yelling, or clanging a couple pans together.

In fact, assuming the OP didn't grab his hearing protection, I wonder how his ears were doing immediately after.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. Husband had to take down a rabid cat

It was a stray that had wandered into our yard. Was foaming at the mouth and acting strange. He got me in the house and loaded his gun and shot it. Where we live, there is no animal control, and no telling where the poor animal would have gone if we had had to have waited for the sheriff to come.

[MichaelHarris]

26. fuck a Glock

get a leash! Maybe a fence?

[Xenotime]

70. Excellent point.

[jody]

27. Good job but gun-grabber beetles will blame you for shooting at two poor, defenseless dogs. n/t

[iverglas]

31. watch out

Oops, too late, it's already here.

[tucsonlib]

34. Just Curious

When and why did you find it necessary to add "beetles" to the old tried and true (not to mention infantile and wildly over-the-top) "gun-grabber"? Trying to escalate the "name-calling war"? Soon, in retaliation, they'll be calling you "Gun-Nut Millipedes". And Pro-Choice will become "Baby-Killer Lady Bugs". Where will it all end?

[iverglas]

39. don't lag behind now

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=202133#202157

The essence of that one is that your Prez is a dung beetle.

How sweet it is.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

51. I thought we de-escalated this about a month ago.

I think we've been in a state of peace for quite some time now.

David

[jody]

53. ROFL, have a great day. n/t

[dweller]

28. BANG!

who let the dogs out?

dp

[dixiegrrrrl]

30. Seems to be 2 kinds of responders to this post.

I have been in the same situation with my dog being attacked in HIS yard by a pack of
"friendly neighborhood unleashed" dogs.
Ever see even 2 dogs fighting? How about more than 2 dogs? They do not exactly stand still, and it is impossible, not to mention stupid, to reach out and grab one of them.
Shooting INTO a swirling dog fight is not a bright idea.
Hoses do not work. All a dog in a fight sees is how to survive the other dog's attack.

Fortunately, I had fireworks handy.
It startled the attackers enough to allow Mr. D. to wade in with a machete.

the vet was 16 miles away.
the Sheriff talked to the owners of the unleashed dogs and told us we could shoot them on sight next time.
One owner paid our vet bill.
I got a shotgun a week later.

[iverglas]

32. o-kay

Ever see even 2 dogs fighting? How about more than 2 dogs? They do not exactly stand still, and it is impossible, not to mention stupid, to reach out and grab one of them.

But ...

I got a shotgun a week later.

... it would be really intelligent to fire a shotgun into that roiling tangle of dogs ...


Please don't get me wrong. There are animal attacks that are difficult to end without firearms.

There is also no evidence that keeping a handgun lying around the house accomplished an iota of anything in ending the dog attack described in the opening post that any loud noise-making object or act would not have done.

Dogs don't actually think: OMG, that was a warning shot that just got fired over my head, better run! Really. They don't.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. Some dogs will break and run at the sound of gunfire. Many have to be trained NOT to do that

The key is if they are in the middle of a fight, if will work or not. the answer is sometimes, but not as often as one would hope.

I would never wade into a dogfight where I did not know the participants. Way too dangerous, exposure to rabies etc. Close up with a pistol is the preferred course. I say this from a rural vice urban perspective.

[dixiegrrrrl]

40. I don't believe I said or alluded to using a shotgun to break up a dog fight.

Maybe you need to re-read my post, the part with "the Sheriff"

btw...it worked well for the racoons eating my laying hens, too.

[iverglas]

42. hmm

the Sheriff talked to the owners of the unleashed dogs and told us we could shoot them on sight next time.

What fun.

[dixiegrrrrl]

43. shooting the dogs, he meant...not the owners...

Honest, the thought never entered my mind .....
hardly.

[iverglas]

45. well ...

Some years ago I was coming back from the corner store in this very non-rural neighbourhood and found a yob with a Doberman on a leash in front of my home, and the Doberman trying to get at the cat on my porch. My neighbours cat. I bellowed at the yob: my cat, my property, your dog, off, etc. The dog moved on to the next house, and my cat on that porch. Too bad for yob, I own that house too, and reiterated. The dog was digging at the tallish plants in the garden by the porch and from what I could tell had a cat cornered. I wasn't about to interfere with a frenzied Doberman. I grabbed the yob by the front of his shirt and yanked and shoved. A slight altercation ensued -- it's quite amazing what gentlemen these yobs with Dobermans aren't -- and I didn't really get the better of it. But I did get the Doberman off my cat and out of my garden.

Responsible pet ownership is a sign of a developed society and a developed personality. It only takes a generation or two to get beyond the barbarism of free-ranging free-breeding (or permanently chained unfed) throwaway animals to humane decency. Once the process starts, anyhow. Keep an eye out for any signs of that happening. ;)

[S_B_Jackson]

50. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good....

...and found a yob with a Doberman on a leash in front of my home, and the Doberman trying to get at the cat on my porch....I grabbed the yob by the front of his shirt and yanked and shoved. A slight altercation ensued

So you're saying you laid hands on a Doberman's owner, when the dog already had his/her aggressive instincts and blood up? Not very bright, Iverglas, not at all. 8 times out of 10, you'd have gotten yourself mauled.

As they say, though, God looks after fools and madmen/madwomen.

[iverglas]

64. sometimes people do actually risk their safety

to do something that needs doing.

I give up. What was I supposed to do in this case, per popular gunhead or any other wisdom?

I could have run around the side of the house and grabbed some lumber. I figured I would have enraged the yob more by beating on his dog than by beating on him, actually. And I couldn't be sure the yob would take a mere threat of a lumber smack more seriously than he was taking my admonishments. Did I really want to beat on him with a 1x6 fence plank? (The dog itself was not quite full grown and more enthusiastic than enraged in its pursuit of cat, btw.)

I guess I could have zipped inside and grabbed my glock out of its unsecure hiding spot and ... okay, I give up. Done what with it? On a densely built up downtown street with a bunch of kids playing some 10 yards away?

What would all the big tough gun owners hereabouts have done in the situation?

Probably not got grabbed by the hair and shoved to the ground by the more accustomed than I to street fighting yob I was faced with. Yes, I'm just a frail woman who needs a glock to defend the neighbourhood cats and my garden from yobs and their dogs ... Gotta level that playing field ...

[AtheistCrusader]

73. Shoot the dog.

Responsible pet ownership means not allowing your pet into a situation where it's going to attack other people or their pets/property. If I let my dogs roam or attack other animals, I wouldn't be shocked if one of my neighbors ended it.

If you're feeling charitable, warn the yob you're going to shoot his dog, and give him a chance to correct the situation.

Otherwise, if the yob presses the point, you already have the tool in hand to protect yourself.

[iverglas]

74. yeah, well, sorry

Not an available option, for a variety of reasons both personal and legal (even had it seemed necessary, which it very obviously wasn't). As I thank my stars for constantly.

[AtheistCrusader]

82. I know.

I'm just pushing electrons around.

Did you press charges?

[marksmithfield]

75. It's all about

learning to aim!

"I guess I could have zipped inside and grabbed my glock out of its unsecure hiding spot and ... okay, I give up. Done what with it? On a densely built up downtown street with a bunch of kids playing some 10 yards away?"

Why iverglas I cant believe you have an unsecured weapon just laying about! I would have thought for sure it would take you at least 10 minutes to work the combination on the safe you keep your Glock in and another 10 for the ammo safe.

[mrbarber]

79. "On a densely built up downtown street"

Comparing the necessity of keeping firearms in the city compared to in rural communities is like comparing apple and oranges.

[iverglas]

89. uh huh

Comparing the necessity of keeping firearms in the city compared to in rural communities is like comparing apple and oranges.

Now, if only somebody had done that, your entire post wouldn't be a great big

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. BTDT, but I dropped the attackers

Over the years we have had stray dog problems like that. We like living way out in the country, and its more common there than many realize. Sometimes its feral dogs sometimes its local dogs going out at night and do damage. I've lost stock and pets to both kinds of packs. To solve the problem I prefer a .22LR vice a .45.

The issue afterwards is what do you do with the dead animals. In one particularly egregious case I dropped the carcasses in front of the owners property the rest of them were shoot/shovel/shut up. While that seems harsh, once dogs go rogue there is no recourse.

[dixiegrrrrl]

41. Around here, people don't spay or neuter.

Instead , they let the puppies play in the road.
That's their idea of rectroactive birth control.
And of course they let their dogs loose at night to run.
Which sets off every dog who is caged/chained up outside.

Rabies shots? NOT a tradition for 98% of the "pets" running around..

[8 track mind]

112. or my favorite

dumping a box of puppies in the middle of a dirt road. I was hauling ass on my dirt bike out in the sticks one day many years ago when i turned a corner and there in the middle of the road was a box of puppies. I laid the bike down to avoid hitting them but i wound up hitting one anyway. I tried to render aid, but they took off into the woods and my leg was bleeding and swelling up from road rash, so i couldn't run very well.

Unfortunately this is a common practice in the country. People don't give a fuck about animals out in the sticks. There are times when my Dad had to kill some feral dogs. I didn't like it, my dad a vietnam vet, sure as hell didn't like it.

[jeepnstein]

54. That's how I learned to shoot.

The first lesson was that killing is just no fun at all. The second lesson was that the poor dogs deserve to get it as quickly cleanly as possible. If ever there was a chore I hated that was it. People would dump their dogs in the country and think they were going to live happily ever after on some farm. The reality is they go feral and start killing livestock.

Warning shots don't work because the dogs will keep coming back. That's the sad reality of it.

[gorfle]

44. Good job, mountain man.

You have to protect the furry members of your family, too, and you did.

Pay no mind to those who ask why you didn't pull a MacGyver and use a pocketknife or belly-button lint or some other garbage instead.

[slackmaster]

56. Good quick thinking - I'm glad your children are OK

Best of luck at the vet.

I'm sorry you are being treated to so much mean-spirited Monday morning quarterbacking in this thread, but you knew that was inevitable.

[Stephanie]

57. "I was unable to get a good shot at either of her attackers, so they got away"

So more than just a defensive shooting, you also attempted to use your gun to administer justice, as the dogs were running away.

[Indy Lurker]

92. Justice?

Doggy Court?


Many places it's within the law to shoot wild dogs, even if they haven't been convicted.


Even if they haven't mauled your pets or children, you can still shoot them.


They do not have a right to Beagle council, Cat scans, or Lab results.

[Stephanie]

104. The OP is asserting he was involved in a "defensive shooting"

Shooting at dogs who are running away is not "defensive." It's retribution.

[virginia mountainman]

117. Who said I was shooting at them??

The sound of the shots broke up the fight, their was NO retribution...

[nichomachus]

58. So, basically you scared them away with a loud noise not a defensive shooting

Dogs don't know what guns are. They reacted to the loud noise and your intervention -- something that could have been accomplished by banging a pot.

Humans know what guns are and would react -- or not -- to a warning shot. To dogs, it's just a loud noise.

[iverglas]

62. great minds

Posts 21 and 29, if I may quote myself.

Doesn't actually take a great mind, does it? ;)

[slackmaster]

66. True enough, but unlike other noise-making devices

A gun in that kind of situation could come in handy as a weapon.

[Longteeth]

65. Hope the dog heals up. You should probably get to a vet as soon

as possible. You'll need some good antibiotics to be administered profolactively. The dog will also need a rabies booster, and of course the wounds need to be addressed.

With regard to the attackers. Is it legal to put out bear traps? Dogs don't often fall for a coon style trap but that would be a good alternative.

BTW, glad to hear you had a handgun ready to go and easy to get to!!!

[wildflowergardener]

71. Dogs

Sorry about some of the responses to your post.

I hope your dog will be ok. I don't care for guns, myself, but glad you had something to defend yourself with if the dogs came after you when you tried to break up the fight. If that was all you had readily available, that was all you had - the suggestions of other things you might have used are not really that helpful I think - since you probably didn't have them at hand.

Though I think i would keep a shovel or something handy near the door until the strays are caught - cause I'm sure if they had attacked your children it would have been too risky to shoot.

Meg

[Scout]

72. some people fence their yards to protect their children and pets

from stray dogs and wild animals

:shrug:

[Raskolnik]

77. Some people don't. So what?

Some people live in high rise apartments, and some people live in the country. Not everyone lives in a gated suburban community which lends itself to fencing one's property off from its surroundings.

[Scout]

97. some people do. so what? what the fuck do you care? n/t

[Raskolnik]

98. Um, I think that's the precise question I was asking you.

You made the statement that some people fence their yards to protect their children and their pets. How is that relevant to the OP? Would it have made you happier if the OP had fenced his yard? Do you even know if that is feasible in this instance?

[Scout]

101. making an observation

perhaps should have said MOST people use fences to keep unwanted animals out of their yards.

i don't have any emotions one way or the other about the OP's yard. don't see how i could be "happy" about it one way or the other.

you got a problem with other posters making observations about the topic of a thread?

[Raskolnik]

102. Oh, don't try to be a tough-guy.

you got a problem with other posters making observations about the topic of a thread?

Uh, no sir, no problem here, sir.

[Scout]

109. well then good, we understand each other.

and i'm not "trying" to be anything, much less a tough guy.

[mrbarber]

80. Do you live in the country?

[Scout]

96. i grew up in the country

what does that have to do with anything?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

123. So this is all the OP's fault for not having a 6 foot privacy fence?

[Scout]

135. keep making shit up Dave, that's what you're good at. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

137. It was a question, not a statement. Hence the question mark.

[iverglas]

149. No, it wasn't, Dave

It was an assertion with a question mark stuck on the end. Bad on the grammar front. Even worse on the civility front, since your assertion falsely attributed a claim to someone who had not made or implied it, as your "so" said she had.

I think that if you tried, you really could formulate an actual question some day. You could try practising and see how it went.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

156. You are just wrong. No question about it.

[lebkuchen]

76. In the country where I live now

Germany

dogs can't run free, though they can be in restaurants on a leash, provided they've been to dog school and are insured

therefore, there's no need for everyone to pack a pistol to shoot them.

[iverglas]

87. amazing, isn't it?

Some people are happy to live with no public services, no enforcement of the rules of civilized society.

One almost thinks that having no public services and no rule enforcement make awfully good excuses for having guns at hand everywhere one goes.

So it would be a dangerous idea to suggest that maybe these places that have no rules about uncontrolled dogs and nobody to enforce the rules were there any should maybe get themselves some of that stuff. Then nobody would have tragic stories to hang their gunhead demands on.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

99. isn't amazing that you can not conceive of areas where firearms are a required part of everyday life

Canada has some truly rural areas. You might try and find them sometime.

[DrCory]

107. In the Area

In which I once lived, public services were entirely inadequate in dealing with the feral dog population. These dogs were often quite aggressive and accomplished killers/injurers of livestock, pets, and in one case, a child. No one had any misgivings about shooting the animals. In fact, such action was the advice of the various law enforcement/animal control agencies. This had an interesting effect, most folks were very careful to control their dogs.

[spin]

84. I wonder how a cattle prod would work...

against an aggressive dog?

I feel virginia mountainman did the right thing under the circumstances. Thankfully the dogs didn't attack his children. I have absolutely no problem with using a firearm to stop an aggressive dog attack in progress. But it's hard to find the opportunity for a clear shot on the attacking dog when he is attacking another dog or a person.

The question is, what might work in a such a situation.

The obvious problem with banging pots and pans is what do you do if that tactic doesn't work, or if the dogs attack you or your children.

I understand pepper sprays are formulated just for dogs. (A police officer told me that the spray the police use on humans will usually deter a dog but may not work against a truly vicious dog who is attacking.) I might consider something like this:



An expandable baton like the police use might be an adequate weapon. A good quality ASP baton like the one shown below will run somewhere around $80. You could seriously hurt a dog with one of these, which might be an advantage or a drawback depending on the situation.



But the cattle prod idea also sounds interesting. You can usually find these at a farm supply store for somewhere around $60 to $100. I did read a couple of posts on the internet where people had stopped aggressive dogs with cattle prods and said they caused no permanent damage to the animal.

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

91. Bullets are about 25 cents each if you're equipped to use them. (n/t)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

100. They all require close proximity which can be a bad thing

Firearms allow you to *reach out* and solve the issue when needed

[spin]

103. A firearm is a great rural weapon against a dog attack...

But I live in a more urban environment. There is a possibility that the local authorities would frown on discharging a firearm in the city limits even for a dog attack. If I were to use a firearm, I would probably wait until the dog had launched the attack and was busy chewing on my arm or something I managed to jam in his mouth.

If the dog was busy attacking my dog or another individual, I would probably have to get close to make sure of the shot.

We have a large number of stray dogs in the community, but the situation has been improving since the dog catcher who didn't catch dogs retired. The new dog catcher approaches his job with a little more enthusiasm.

About a year ago, a neighbor in her late 60's let her dachshund out in the morning to do his business. He was attacked by a stray rottweiler. The neighbor did manage to get her dog inside the house, but the rottweiler tried to break the door down to continue the attack.

The neighbor was fortunate not to be injured, but her dachshund spent two weeks at the vets recovering. The rottweiler was never found.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

105. I won't live in an urban area in the US anymore...and I try to express a rural perspective here

when I can. In a urban situation a machete, brush axe, or Woodsmans Pal may be the best you can do. The same people who frown on firearms tend not to be big on edged weapons either, so a battle axe or war hammer is not going to be acceptable to them either.

[jeepnstein]

108. Well...

I was taught in Taser school that it was a good tool for dog attacks in a crowded area. It works really well if there's only one dog. You could drive stun after you fire the cartridge but that would mean getting close. Having dealt with large dogs for almost my entire life I wouldn't have a problem with that.

A squirt gun with household ammonia will drop a dog in it's tracks if you can hit it in the face. They'll remember you and avoid you like the plague after that. I'll vouch for that one personally.

O.C. spray? I've used it on a pig with great results but never a dog. Given how sensitive a dog's nose it I'd have to say it would be painful enough to stop an attack.

If you've got one mauling a child you've got to use a tool that will get between them and not kill the kid. I keep a five-iron on my back porch for such work, as well as a little practice on the swing from time to time. It's all about the right tool for the job, that's what keeps us on the top of the food chain.

The last pit bull "attack" I had to deal with was broken up with a couple of cookies and a tummy rub.

[spin]

110. I did find a "stun baton" which looks interesting...

The device is 18" and packs an impressive 800,000 volts.

http://www.beststungun.com/streetwise-stun-baton.html

The five-iron does seem to be a good solution, similar to the ASP baton but longer.

[wartrace]

114. There are other options than using a handgun.

I keep one of these loaded for emergencies.


It makes it easier to hit your target at a distance. The only use I have for a handgun is personal protection carry.

[iverglas]

115. "I keep one of these loaded for emergencies."

Like, for when the Martians land ...

If you don't care much about killing your own dog in the process - i.e. the process under discussion here ... I guess that's a good plan.

[yay]

116. He's right you know.

.308 has far to much penetration, even with expending ammo. Considering the size of your average dog, and the fact that .308 is an effective caliber for large game hunting, you would have issues. Over penetration is not only a possibility, it's the most likely outcome.

But I ramble.

Good job OP. Personally I think glocks feel like crap though.

[wartrace]

118. Who cares about over penetration?

As always, people look at their situation and apply it to others. In my case I have no neighbors nearby, the closest is over a half mile away. ALSO, I am surrounded by hills AND I know enough not to shoot in the general direction of a neighbors property. FURTHERMORE, I have been having coyote problems and have bought ammunition specifically designed for fragmentation upon impact. It is RBCD brand if you care to investigate it further. One shot puts down a coyote quickly with no suffering. I might add that the M1a is a very accurate rifle which is a lot better than having to shoot multiple times in order to get a hit.

I'm afraid I have the poster you replied to on my "list" and can not see what they posted.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

122. She apparently thought your rifle was an automatic weapon that should be spray fired from the hip.

Because that's what responsible gun owners do when children and our own animals are about.

David

[iverglas]

127. you apparently thought you were being clever

Oops.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

133. Rarely is it the butt of the joke that finds it funny.

[iverglas]

126. "As always, people look at their situation and apply it to others."

Oddly enough, this thread is ABOUT something. You chose to reply to a post that was ABOUT someting. It was about breaking up a dog attack to rescue a pet.

"Over-penetration" -- or a moving target -- is something that just might be a concern to the person in that situation.

Your situation really has nothing to do with this thread, does it now?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

132. If one of my dogs is being attacked by pit bulls then a gun will be involved in the rescue.

Although I haven't found it necessary to use one to break up the dozens that I have broken up.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

121. A fine example of complete ignorance.

[wartrace]

124. Almost tempting enough to read it.......

Almost.

[iverglas]

129. somebody want to tell this one it's sailing close to the shoals?

Your choice what you choose to read and not read, buddy. You choose not to engage in democratic discourse, your choice. And then you stfu about it.

[jmg257]

154. Why would you be at a forum, and then choose to "ignore" people?

I never got that.

How can we learn if we do not converse with those who might think differently, probably for good or understandable reasons - usually just experiences that are different then yours?


:shrug:

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jmg257]

159. Yep. nt

[iverglas]

161. and hell

Why limit the amount of material available to interfere with getting work done??

[iverglas]

128. I know how short your attention span is, Davey

So maybe you'd like to reread the opening post and consider the usefulness / advisability of using the item in question for the purpose in question.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

134. Your comments are what revealed your ignorance, that's what I commented on.

[virginia mountainman]

119. UPDATE!!!!!

Dog is fine, went to the vet the next morning, got her some antibiotics, and all is well, but she did 'mope' around the house for a few days, but today, she is running and playing happily outside as I type this.

My pup, and my family thank all you well wishers for your good thoughts!!

And to the rest of you....That sat back and debated every little point even down to the point of implying that we are somehow "uncivilized" can just .. F O ..


I mean it, in my original post, I pointed out that I went from cooking on the stove to gunfire in 30 seconds, if not less, I did not have time to find a way that would not upset the elitists among us. And besides their is an important fact that you elitists overlooked, I was standing in the kitchen, and i heard dogs going nuts, and my kids screaming.... this was all the information I had.

I had no idea what was going on, only that is was VERY BAD, and demanded immediate action..

I live in the mountains, I have national forest on 3 sides of my property, I do, have a Bear problem, their are bobcats, and other potentially dangerous animals... The dog could have been fighting a bear for all I knew, and we all know pots, shovels, air horns, shouting, water hoses, "and telling them to quit", will stop a bear attack...NOT...I am sorry, when lives are at stake, I will choose tools that WILL WORK, not political palatable ones for those of us, who have no idea on what reality is in a rural area.

In all truth, the .45 was barely adequate,to run into a unknown situation with, I should have grabbed a rifle, but that would have taken time, and at that moment that I was standing in the kitchen, with my children screaming

DADDY!!! DADDY!!!!! DADDY!!!!!!

I just did not have any time.

[X_Digger]

120. Glad to hear she's okay!

Good on ya!

[wartrace]

125. I'm glad she is doing better.

It is amazing how resilient dogs are, isn't it? I had a pup who chewed out her spaying stitches and she was running around the yard like nothing was wrong at all. It sure gave me a considerable amount of concern, she was fine after a restitch.

You need to get rid of these dogs. I suggest a large "Have a heart" trap, most dogs will go in after meat. The trap WILL NOT work with coyotes though, I tried and they are too smart to go in. ALSO, I am not trying to tell you what is best but a nice fence would contain the dog in a safe place. I was forced to put one up around my house this past fall due to the coyote problem & the size of my dogs (beagle sized). It was the best investment I ever made, now I can let them out when they want out. I used to have to make them ALL (six) go out together for safety. They no longer run off chasing rabbits, no longer come home smelling like skunk. They seem to be OK with being confined in the half acre I set aside for the fence, I wish I could afford to do the entire property but that would cost 30 to 40 thousand dollars to do right.

[iverglas]

130. "the elitists" "you elitists"

Where am I again, now?

[iverglas]

131. there's a very simple fact here

You did NOT USE a firearm in a "defensive shooting".

You did NOT NEED a firearm for the purpose for which you used it.

Your subject line was misleading, and was obviously intended to be misleading.

There may well be instances when firearms are needed, and used, to protect people or animals from dog or other animal attacks.

It is also very obvious from your story that there are many times when firearms are NOT needed, and actually can NOT be used, for that purpose.

They aren't magic talismen. Really. Please accept that.

[Scout]

136. "... have a Bear problem, their are bobcats, and other potentially dangerous animals..."

all the more reason to fence in at least part of your yard.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

138. Blame the victim, typical.

[Scout]

142. what victim would that be Dave?

i thought we had a successful defensive use of a gun, how could we have a victim?

most people, if trying to protect their domestic animals and children choose to fence in part of their yard, not leave a loaded weapon laying around and then wait for their children to scream in terror so they can run out and use their gun ... this incident was totally preventable.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

143. The dog silly.

Your logic is flawed though. Many people who successfully defend themselves are injured prior to doing so. Many things could have prevented this incident, better animal control to capture the stray dogs, both children catching the flu so as to miss school. I think just about anyone could come up with many scenarios.

David

[Scout]

147. so if the dog is the victim, how was i blaming the victim for anything Dave? n/t

[iverglas]

148. that dog

was obviously shirking its duties. It shoulda had the fence built by now.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

158. See that wasn't hard. Even Iverglas go the joke.

[iverglas]

160. actually I didn't

But if you say it was a joke, then it was a joke.

Dry humour is just so unexpected hereabouts. And has been known to be claimed under dubious circumstances.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

157. You completely lack the capacity for understanding humor.

[wartrace]

145. What if the family dog hadn't been out there? The kids would probably have been attacked.

An unloaded weapon is called a "club". The poster didn't wait for his children to scream in terror so he could run out & use his gun, he used his gun BECAUSE his children & his dog were in serious danger. I am fed up with people who have no concept of life outside the city limits. When you people get in trouble what do you do? You CALL for help from someone who HAS A GUN (the police). It's as if you are incapable of believing that sometimes having a gun handy is better than waiting for your local civil servant to come to your aid with his/her gun.

edited for civility.

[Scout]

146. a fence around his yard would have prevented that

i grew up in the country, not that it's any of your business.

i never mentioned calling the police in this instance.

i'm sick of gun nuts making up shit about people.

i am fed up with people who are just dying to kill someone, and keep loaded weapons around just in case they might get a chance to do so.

[wartrace]

150. You really need help.

You are tired of people making "shit" up about people YET you claim that those who keep a loaded gun in their home are dying to kill someone. HELLO? WHO is making "shit" up about people? It seems as if all you gun grabbers are suffering from "projection" issues. (look it up)
I keep a loaded weapon in the house in case I am forced to kill something. By your analogy a man who keeps a charged fire extinguisher "WANTS" to put out a fire?

Goodbye.

[iverglas]

151. "in case I am forced to kill something"

Howzat now ... by somebody holding a gun to your head??

Hahahahahahaha.

[Scout]

153. good on ya' for that one iverglas ;-) n/t

[Scout]

152. does that mean you're putting me on ignore?

i'm crushed. not.

it pisses you off when people make shit up doesn't it? see why i'm pissed now?

[CarinKaryn]

139. Oh brother.

You didn't NEED a gun to scare off some dogs. You're obviously getting your rocks off by posting an "I was there!" type of armed responder story. You'll really get a better response on the NRA board or somewhere that everyone thinks they need guns all the time to repel zombie attacks. Probably have a few people there able to also say "I picked up my gun in something similar. Didn't really need it then either."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

140. Isn't freedom a wonderful thing?

[Iktomiwicasa]

141. Too bad...

..you weren't able to finish off the attacking dogs. You could have made a huge pot of stew outta 'em :)