Bill to limit sales of handguns falters (NJ)

[davepc]

A bill that would restrict handgun purchases in New Jersey to one per month stalled in the state Senate yesterday.

The bill was held by its sponsor, Sen. Sandra B. Cunningham (D-Hudson), after it received 20 votes, one shy of the 21 needed for passage. No Republicans voted for the bill, drawing a rebuke from Senate President Richard Codey (D-Essex).

Cunningham and other supporters argued the bill would cut down on "straw" buyers who purchase guns for criminals. The bill (S1774/A339) would allow the purchase of up to 13 guns a year, one every 30 days.

New Jersey would be the fourth state to adopt such a limit. Gov. Jon Corzine, a Democrat, had pushed for the bill earlier this month, saying it was "close" to approval.

"This bill is critical to public safety," Codey said. "This is a common sense measure to put a stop to in-state 'straw' purchases of large numbers of handguns that are then sold illegally and used by criminals and gang members."

...

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey/index.ssf?/base/news-12/123545314436320.xml&coll=1

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

1. Good

[billyoc]

2. Good.

[Double T]

3. Restrictions on the purchase of legal weapons should never be allowed.

[Longteeth]

4. Great news!

[old mark]

5. "Common sense", ?

Criminals, by definition don't obey the law - this penalizes only would-be gun owners who buy firearms legally.
The FBI states that most guns used in crime are stolen from a family member or aquaintance of the criminal, and the "straw purchase" is already illegal.
No sense is more like it.

mark

[davepc]

6. Fact is, because of NJ's Firearms ID card and hangun purchase permit system (one permit per gun)

Straw purchasers are going to drive down to Virgina or another state that doesn't require anything more then a NICS check.

[iverglas]

10. I wonder what Bobby Kennedy would say

Fact is ...

"Some people see things as they are and say why? I dream things that never were and say why not?"

Imagine ... if the good burghers of Virginia were to start giving a shit about their fellow citizens and adopt measures to reduce the incidence of these straw purchases of firearms used to commit crimes in other states of their union ...

[iverglas]

9. you seem to be short of it

Criminals, by definition don't obey the law

Fucking DUH.

But licensed firearms dealers presumably do?

Put your thinking cap on, now.


this penalizes only would-be gun owners who buy firearms legally

It doesn't penalize anyone.


the "straw purchase" is already illegal.

So is shoplifting.

No reason for stores to have all those detection devices at the exits, right?

[gorfle]

7. I'm ambivalent.

Any decent firearm is going to set you back at least $400.

I'm lucky to buy one every five years. 13 firearms a year would be $5200 a year in firearm purchases.

Who actually does this? Do you know anyone who does this? I want to be their friend.

[yay]

12. Well...

.22 pistols and some older style/surplus guns can be had sub $200. I've seen makarovs go for under $200 regularly.

It's supposed to prevent straw purchases. Some people can buy guns for multiple people

EDIT: I don't support this bill, just sayin.

[57_TomCat]

13. Well some of have.

There was a period in my youth when I bought a large number of handguns but most were a case of buying one and trading in another. Five or six a month on several occasions.

In one case I walked into a gun store while on duty and traded my S&W Model 15 Combat Masterpiece in .38 Special for a S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman in .357 Magnum. Later that day I got word the revolver I really wanted was in the shop from a trade so I went back and traded up to a Nickled S&W Model 19 Combat Magnum. I called the wife and she was pissed. Seems she wanted the Model 15 for a house gun. Got off duty and went and bought that sucker back. Three "purchases" in one day. :)

[TheWraith]

8. If you think you've got somebody making straw purchases, why not INVESTIGATE THEM?

What they describe is highly illegal. Instead of simply encouraging these people to drive to another state for their purchases, why not investigate them and see if you can actually prove that they're doing something illegal?

[iverglas]

11. can you explain how that would work?

I'm curious, and I'm sure all those silly Democrats proposing the legislation would appreciate your insight.

[TheWraith]

14. Knowingly supplying guns to criminals is illegal.

If we want a law, pass one saying that a gun store is obligated to inform law enforcement about any purchase of three or more handguns. Thus the police have the discretion to note any large or repeated buys, and conduct and investigation to see if the person is reselling the weapons illegally. As it stands, banning more than 13 a year would just send the straw-buyers on a road-trip to other states. This way you could at least catch some people who were trying to game the system.

[iverglas]

15. and they know it how?

If we want a law, pass one saying that a gun store is obligated to inform law enforcement about any purchase of three or more handguns.

And this would not send them on a road trip to the store on the other side of town?

You're saying three or more handguns in a single purchase? Like, 93 handguns a month?

I must not be getting something here.


Thus the police have the discretion to note any large or repeated buys, and conduct and investigation to see if the person is reselling the weapons illegally.

I'm still asking what this investigation would be. Do they knock on the door and say Please, show us your handguns so we can be sure you haven't sold them?

What the hell else would someone making "large or repeated buys" be doing with them??


As it stands, banning more than 13 a year would just send the straw-buyers on a road-trip to other states.

And gosh, just imagine if other states had the same rules ...

I suppose, yes, someone in NYC could make monthly trips down the I-95, stopping in each state along the way and buying a handgun to bring back home, if there were no rules other than state rules, i.e. no nation-wide bar to more than one purchase a month.

Just imagine if there were such a nation-wide rule ... or even if each state's rules provided that purchases in other states counted, or that non-residents had to show they had not already made their monthly purchase elsewhere, and if there were a way of checking such purchases ...


This way you could at least catch some people who were trying to game the system.

I'm not really seeing it. But the one-gun-a-month rule would at least stop some people currently engaging in illegal trafficking, it seems to me.

[Furyataurus]

16. The ATF

is automatically alerted when someone buys a minimum of 5 handguns in a week or a day regardless of what laws a state has, I can't remember which. The ATF knows who's buying guns by the bulk, its just that they are too busy to get to the people that are doing these "straw" purchases.

Limiting firearms is unconstitutional anyways...........is there a limit to how many books you can buy? a limit how many times you can use the 6th Amendment? the 5th? the 1st? how about the 4th? Or how about any other of the Amendments?

[TheWraith]

17. What about this other proposal wouldn't just mean a longer road trip for them?

"And this would not send them on a road trip to the store on the other side of town?"

As noted, you can buy all the guns you want in Virginia with only an NICS check, and that's not very likely to change. There's always going to be somewhere where it's easier to buy--you might as well at least leave the opportunity to keep them there and bust them.

"You're saying three or more handguns in a single purchase? Like, 93 handguns a month?"

I was more thinking something like three in a month. You could reasonably make an argument that somebody buying two pistols isn't uncommon enough to warrant notifying law enforcement.

"I'm still asking what this investigation would be. Do they knock on the door and say Please, show us your handguns so we can be sure you haven't sold them?"

Same way you investigate somebody you think is a drug dealer. Stakeout and surveilance.

"And gosh, just imagine if other states had the same rules ..."

Which is never going to happen.

[iverglas]

18. "and that's not very likely to change"

Where is that Bobby Kennedy when you need him?


There's always going to be somewhere where it's easier to buy

Why?

Or, as Bobby would have said, why not make sure there isn't somewhere where it's easier to buy them?


Same way you investigate somebody you think is a drug dealer. Stakeout and surveilance.

Still trying to figure out how to figure out who to stake out and surveille.

Not to mention how many person-hours it would take to do that for each suspicious set of purchases.

All those cops who are already only those precious minutes away ... it'll be hours away, at that rate.

I so often get the feeling that nobody here is really interested in solving any problems. They just want to make sure that people go to jail.

[Furyataurus]

19. Thats easy

the ATF will have your SS and DL number and that makes it easier to track you down. With your SS number they can see what kind of credit cards you have and track you that way. Unless they use nothing but cash of course..........

[TheWraith]

20. Was not Bobby Kennedy in favor of enforcing laws?

"Or, as Bobby would have said, why not make sure there isn't somewhere where it's easier to buy them?"

Because in Virginia you can buy unlimited weapons with only an NICS check. Because if Virginia changed their laws, they would buy in Alabama or somewhere else. And if you passed a federal law--assuming you could even get a federal law through congress--they'd bring them in from Canada, Mexico, or elsewhere. Trying to legislate it away just exports the problem: better off trying to catch the people who do it. Otherwise you're kicking the can down the road, and trying to make the straw buyers somebody else's problem.

"Still trying to figure out how to figure out who to stake out and surveille."

Start with the people who buy three or more handguns within a month. Or you could start at the top, with people who buy ten or twenty guns a month. Any kind of law enforcement takes time--that's what we pay the police to do, and this would be less difficult than finding drug dealers, since you already know who they are. It's not like there's going to be that long a list of people who are buying that many guns.

"I so often get the feeling that nobody here is really interested in solving any problems. They just want to make sure that people go to jail."

When somebody is breaking a law, the solution IS that they go to jail. You on the other hand seem bound and determined to avoid prosecuting criminals as an excuse to pass a law--even an ineffective law.