Here's a good website for gun crime statistics

[Lefty48197]

This website is from the Dept. of Justice. I know many of the NRA members were skeptical of Federal statistics during the Clinton years, but since Bush Jr. and Ashcroft are now in charge of the DOJ, I'm guessing the they now have a lot of faith in those government statistics.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/weapons.htm

I don't think it's any big surprise that handguns are the clear favorite weapon of choice for murderers. I am curious about the spike in handgun murders from the mid 80's up until early into the Clinton era.
Does anyone agree with me that maybe the hateful rhetoric of Ronald Reagan caused the street violence to skyrocket, because of how he taught people to disrespect others?
Also, is the inverse relationship between the economic prosperity of the Clinton years, and the murder rate a given?
If so, wouldn't the best way to fight murder actually be to provide a healthy economy so that the most desperate people won't turn to murder? Am I over simplifying this? Wouldn't it benefit the NRA to have their members support Democrats so that we could have a healthy economy, resulting in less gun murders, and therefore less pressure to increase gun regulations?

[bread_and_roses]

1. Thank you

for the website, I was not aware of it. I am no scholar of this subject, but I doubt that RR's rhetoric had anything to do with increased violence. Intuitively, I would guess that the degree of prosperity in any group has something to do with the level of violence in that group, but again, I am no scholar. I think you left out the abandonment of the inner cities and the criminalization of drugs in your speculations. I would speculate that both have a great deal to do with the rise of gun violence, but that leaves the drop unexplained, since Clinton did nothing much to impact either problem. I will be curious what others, perhaps better informed than I on the issue, think.

[Lefty48197]

2. Are you serious?

I mean, Detroit's unemployment rate was 8.5% when Clinton took office, but it dropped to 3.1% by the time the Supreme Court started deciding elections. It's been great to see the tremendous amount of rebuilding of downtown Detroit that began with the 1990's prosperity. It's amazing how big a difference jobs mean to a local economy, especially in a big city like Detroit.

[bread_and_roses]

3. I am serious

about the conditions of those - particularly minorities - who live in the worst poverty-stricken areas of the large metropolitan areas. Nothing in what I read, in the experience of a friend who worked in Chicago's public housing areas well into the Clinton years, or in what I have seen in NYC leads me to believe that conditions under Clinton improved much - if at all. The official unemployment rate, as I am sure you are aware, does not tell the whole story, since it does not count those who have dropped out of or never entered the job market. And even so, just today I heard on the news that the unemployment rate among African American/Black youth is twice the rate of white youth.

[Lefty48197]

13. Blacks fared better economically under Clinton that ever before

Here's a good link. The comments are from Asst. Secretary of Labor Bernhard F. Anderson in Jan 2000.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/media/speeches/1-17-00.htm

Here are some quotes from the speech,

"Black unemployment rate is now 7.9%, the lowest level in 30 years"

"Homeownership and business formation are both at record levels among racial minorities"

"The rate of poverty among black families is 26%, and among Hispanics, 28%, poverty rates lower than they have been at any time since the statistics have been collected"

Unless the Assistant Secretary was lying, it seems pretty obvious that African Americans were much better off towards the end of the Clinton administration than at any other time in our nation's history.

[bread_and_roses]

14. well and good

as in a rising tide lifts all boats, I suppose. I am talking about the hard core poverty of those in the inner cities, and those impacted by the racist, divisive, class-war welfare "reform" and "war on drugs." Both of which Clinton supported and abetted. And the superficiality of those gains can be seen in the stats now on Black/African American unemployment, poverty, and incarceration. And the WHITE poverty rate during the time you reference, was, if my memory serves me, about 8%.

[Lefty48197]

15. It sounds like you're blaming Clinton for the problem

When in fact, he did more to end the problem than anybody else. Are you trying to claim that George Bush is helping those people you are referring to? The truth is that those good numbers during the Clinton adminstration, no longer exist. We have regressed tremendously in just three short years.
What is your plan for economically liberating Black America? Four more years of Bush?
No thanks. I'll take Bill Clinton's America anyday. At least racial minorities had a chance under his policies. Now, they're just another statistic for economists to count.

[bread_and_roses]

17. How do you turn

criticism of Clinton into support for Bush? The world is not quite that black and white. I am no fan of Clinton, which does not mean I supported his R opponent or, goddess forfend, that I support the current occupant of the White House or his evil minions. Nor do I pretend to "a plan" for "liberating Black America." I do not deny that better economic times have a "trickle down" effect on the poverty rate of Black/African Americans. I do dispute that Clinton's policies impacted the deeply embedded racism that keeps the poverty rate among this group two or three times that of white Americans. And I will argue that his welfare "reform" pandered to racism in the worst and most dispicable way, from a man both intellegent and I believe aware enough to know it.

[Lefty48197]

19. It still sounds like you're blaming Clinton

in spite of the facts.

[leanings]

4. The late 80's-early 90's

spike has been attributed to the introduction of crack and the attendent gang turf violence every time I've heard it mentioned. I seriously doubt Reagan had anything to do with it.

[happyslug]

5. Also the death of the last depression era mobsters

Occurred during that time period and an increase in Murders follows a fight for dominance in orgainzeed crime. A generational change the young "punks" of the 1930s finaly dieing of old age and with their death a fight for their turf. Someone won that battle, I hope DEA knows who.

[Withergyld]

6. Here are several more good sites

The National Institute of Justice
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/welcome.html

Bureau of Justice Statistics
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/
(you linked above, but this is the home page)

FBI uniform Crime Report Data
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

These are three of the top of my head. I trust the data on these sites a whole lot more the the NRA, GOA, VPC, Brady Center et al.

[MrBenchley]

7. Jeepers....

"Wouldn't it benefit the NRA to have their members support Democrats so that we could have a healthy economy, resulting in less gun murders, and therefore less pressure to increase gun regulations?"

You don't suppose this gun rights crap that the NRA is peddling is just a way to fire up some of the worst people in America and get them to vote for the Republican party, do you?

"Last year, in an effort to understand NRA spending habits, the Campaign for a Progressive Future researched NRA expenditures during the 2000 election cycle. We discovered the following:

* NRA members ran 52 get-out-the-vote phone banks -- all on behalf of Republican candidates.
* The NRA did not endorse a single Democratic candidate in a competitive House or Senate race.
* By a ratio of 317-to-1, the NRA spent its independent expenditure money on Republicans in 2000.
* The NRA also made huge soft money donations to the national Republican Party apparatus (perhaps that's why the NRA is so hostile to Sen. John McCain's campaign finance reforms).


In short, the NRA in 2000 was just another Republican special interest group; indeed, among the GOP's biggest, loudest, wealthiest, and meanest special interest groups.

So the NRA plays the Wizard of Oz: pretending it's not a subsidiary of the GOP, and hoping that its power boast will obscure both the truth of its weak electoral showings and another little problem it faces -- the future.

By far the NRA's best support group has been rural white men, especially those who grew up hunting. These are the supposed victims of the "culture war" that so fixates Charlton Heston. This is also a shrinking demographic group, both in the general population and at the voting booth. "

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/5608

[Valarauko]

8. Everybody SANE is hostile to the campagn finance reforms

You don't have to be a repukenazi to oppose them.

[Valarauko]

9. Especialy as

they are of most harm to Democrats.

[Lefty48197]

16. Whew!

Good thing you got that point in, because I was just beginning to think that you supported the special interest groups such as the NRA, that fund the Republican assault on working America's economic health.

[MrBenchley]

10. Is that so?

Gee, there went the RKBA crowd's little tin hope, Dr. Dean.....

"Dr. Dean, the former governor of Vermont, had pledged to stay in the system, saying, "Campaign finance reform is just something I believe in." "

http://nytimes.com/2003/11/05/politics/campaigns/05DEAN.html?hp

Amazing that you'd impeach the sanity of the man with the NRA's "A" rating...but I've learned never to underestimate the penchant for unintentional humor from "enthusiasts."

[Valarauko]

11. So you believe

that if you agree with someone, you must agree with EVERYTHING he says, no holds barred?

[MrBenchley]

12. I find it hilarious

that you don't think the guy who got an NRA "A" rating is sane...and said so out loud.

[1a2b3c]

18. Are we talking about the war on "some" drugs?

Does anyone agree with me that maybe the hateful rhetoric of Ronald Reagan caused the street violence to skyrocket, because of how he taught people to disrespect others?

That would be my guess as to why the crime skyrocketed in the 80's.

[Lefty48197]

20. Not really

I wasn't really talking about the "war on drugs", or any of the billions and billions of dollars wasted on it.
I was speaking generally of the vengeful rhetoric that WAS Ronald Reagan.
It seems to me that he spent all of his time claiming that any economic woes were the fault of SOMEONE ELSE. Whether it was "those Black welfare mothers" or "those damn Black male criminals", that he incessantly ranted against, Ronald Reagan always seemed to be fomenting hate towards other human beings.
Once you are taught that it's Ok to hate others, then it becomes easy. The violence against those people often follows.