Where ARE the non-racist gun owners?

[MrBenchley]

There's no question that the leadership of both the National Rifle Association, the largest gun owner's group, and the Gun Owners of America, the second largest gun owner's group, are sprrinkled with virulent publicly racist individuals. NRA board member Bob Barr was keynote speaker at the white supremacist C of CC convention; NRA board member Ted Nugent said black people have "bones in their noses" and that apartheid was dandy; and NRA board member Jeff Cooper has called black people "orang-utangs." Meanwhile GOA head Larry Pratt is so racist that even Pat Buchanan had to flee his company.

So, if as we are told, all gun owners are not racist, why are NO gun owners speaking out about these folks at all on any of the many gun owners' forums?

You'd think there'd be at least one gun owner who has spoken out on one of the gun owners many forums and called for Ted Nugent to publicly apologize or for Larry Pratt to resign from the GOA?

When Dr. Dean made his misstatement about the Confederate flag, Democrats spoke right up. And what Dean said was only insensitive; it wasn't overtly racist.

Ted Nugent opened his yap this summer, spouted his bigotry, and got bookings cancelled. Why was there no pressure at all put on Nugent by gun owners to resign from the NRA at that time, do you suppose?

The NRA's enemies list, so lately in the news, contains just about every group that can be thought of working against bigotry...did that give ANY gun owners anywhere pause ON THE RECORD?

It's not that there's a shortage of places for gun owners to spout NRA propagand--I mean, their opinion.

So where are the threads on gun owner forums complaining about the open racism of some of the loudest "gun rights" voices?

The closest thing I can find is this thread denying there's any problem at all from the folks at highroadrage.com, who seem to have paused in their efforts to sneak on here with names like "Leftofstalin" to post this rubbish.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=4ba0415aa2cc014bbb75a0313050478e&threadid=46925&highlight=racist

BTW: Don't miss the guy on highroadrage who jokes about "the Negro Removal Association."

[TexasMexican]

1. gee...

Maybe us gun owners are just more tolerant of what others say.

[CO Liberal]

2. Or.....

....maybe you selectively gloss over things, as long as someone supports your agenda.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

3. Ahh, kinda like saying that someone breaking into a house with a club

is a 'victim'.

Nope no glossing over things in order to support an agenda.

[CO Liberal]

6. He Became a Victim......

....the instant the asshole fired his gun.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

7. See there you go

glossing over the situation to fit your agenda.

I guess you'd consider a rapist killed by a woman he was trying to rape a victim too...

I guess you really do hold to the belief that a woman raped and murdered is morally superior than one explaining why the rapist has a hole in his chest.

[CO Liberal]

11. And There YOU Go

Defending an asshole simply because he had a gun. The guy did NOT have to use deadly force. And because he did, he's an asshole, as far as I'm concerned.

In the interest of DU tranquility, I will not respond to any more of your posts concerning that story. Any attempts by you to drag me into another discussion on it will be considered baiting, and will be referred to the moderators.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

12. Sure thing

But if somebody is breaking into MY house with a 3 foot stick in his hand he will get shot.

In the situation we were discussing the use of deadly force was perfectly appropiate.

You simply dont like it because the homeowner used a gun.

And you continued use of the word 'victim' to describe the aggressor in said situation just go to show that you ideas of what are 'good guys' is seriously whacked.

You seem to think that the 'good guys' are people doing break in with deadly weapons.

[TexasMexican]

15. no...

He was an asshole if he shot his neighbors dog.

He was not an asshole because he shot someone who was going to break into his house to assualt him.

[DoNotRefill]

24. Heh...

One of the "racists" Benchley mentions is Bob Barr. He is currently working for....the ACLU. I guess the ACLU must be a racist organization too in Benchley's book...

Benchley can say anybody's a racist. That doesn't necessarily make it so.

[CO Liberal]

25. And Just Because Someone Owns a Gun ....

....does not make him a fine human being. There are too many assholes in the pro-gun leadership as far as I'm concerned.

[MrBenchley]

29. Amazing, isn't it?

None of the RKBA crowd seems to be even bothering to look for any condemnation or even mild criticism of Nugent on the gun forums...as if they know there won't be one.

[el_gato]

34. Your zero-sum view of the world is truly amazing

I'm not an NRA member or even pay attention to them
but somehow I'm responsible for that corrupt organization.

hmm.... that's pretty rich!

psst hey benchley, let me tell you a secret, the world is a complex and diverse place.

[MrBenchley]

38. Gee, then add one to the zero sum

"somehow I'm responsible for that corrupt organization."
Who said that? Did I MAKE you jump into this thread?

All I said was that I wondered if anybody can produce a gun owner or group of gun owners publicly complaining (or even slightly concerned) on a gun owners forum about the open racism of figures such as Larry Pratt and Ted Nugent.
Nobody has even attempted to.
Wonder why that is?

If nothing else, it seems I'm a fair way along proving no gun owners are sufficiently troubled by open racism to ever speak out condemning it to their peers.

[el_gato]

43. boring

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

"no gun owners are sufficiently troubled by open racism to ever speak out condemning it"

and the implication is?

that all gun owners tacitly support racism.

next

[MrBenchley]

48. Guess you can't do it then.

"no gun owners are sufficiently troubled by open racism to ever speak out condemning it"
and the implication is?
that all gun owners tacitly support racism."
Since you're on this logic kick...what does it mean when people claim "A is not true" but are:
--utterly unable to disprove any of the evidence that shows "A is true" and
--utterly unable to produce even a speck of evidence that shows "A is untrue"

[el_gato]

52. to disprove a blanket statement

all you have to do is find one counterexample

all the people on this board that are examples of
gun owners who are not racist provide this

thus you blanket accusations are demonstrably false.

your arguments are getting rather flaccid now

[MrBenchley]

58. So lets see the counter-example, gato.

"all the people on this board that are examples of
gun owners who are not racist provide this"
So let's see your posts condemning Nugent or the NRA on some gun owners forum.

[DoNotRefill]

65. So in order to disprove an argument on DU...

we now need to go to other message boards?

I'm wondering if Roy Innis hates black people...he's on the NRA board...

[MrBenchley]

73. Nice try, refill

"I'm wondering if Roy Innis hates black people...he's on the NRA board..."
I'm wondering how desperately far afield the RKBA crowd will wander trying to get away from the uncomfortable truth...

[DoNotRefill]

67. Every group has assholes in it...case in point: Zell Miller.

eom

[CO Liberal]

68. But Zell Miller Does Not Speak On Behalf of the Democratic Party

Ted Nugent, on the other hand, speaks on behalf of the Nuts Ruining America. And with a racist as their spokesman, it doesn't look good for them. Kinda like having Cardinal Bernard Law speak for the Catholic Church.

[MrBenchley]

72. Furthermore, plenty of Democrats condemn Zell

and yet it seems, the RKBA crowd can't find even ONE gun owner even mildly critical of racist Ted on a gun owner forum.

[sybylla]

78. Hence, we're all racists?

Hence, all Dems go to repuke forums to bash racist repukes?

Pleeeaaase. You have no desire to get to the truth, Benchley, or you wouldn't couch your assertions and demands in such a manner. You are free to live in your own world, Benchley. It's not my job to force your eyes open. I can speak truth to racism, I can speak truth to prejudice like yours, I can't make you see it if you don't want to.

Enjoy your ignorance. :toast:

[MrBenchley]

79. Gee, it wouldn't take much to show that to be false

and yet none of the RKBA crowd here even seems to be trying to do so.

"It's not my job to force your eyes open. I can speak truth to racism."
My eyes ARE wide open...and I see none of your fellow gun owners are speaking any of that truth aloud to any other gun owners...especially to the ones spouting racist bilge in public.

[DoNotRefill]

115. Miller is an elected Democrat....

just as Nugent is an elected board member.

Does Miller speak for all Democrats? Nope. Does Nugent speak for all gun owners? Nope.

[bobbieinok]

4. People I know who own guns

....use them responsibly; sometimes hunt, sometimes skeet shoot.

....don't consider it a big deal.

....are not 'joiners', so it would never occur to them to read/post on internet gun forums.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

5. not in the NRA

i'd say most of the non-racist gun-owners are not in the NRA, and could care less about the NRA's stance on anything. It's pretty plain to see that the NRA is a racist organization more than anything else.

[papau]

9. I agree

:-)

[MrBenchley]

13. So where are the posts on gun owner forums

saying so?

"It's pretty plain to see that the NRA is a racist organization more than anything else. "
You won't get an argument from me.

[slackmaster]

28. How many "gun owner" forums do you read regularly?

If you hop into one looking for evidence of racism I'm sure you can find it. That's like walking on the sidewalk looking for chewing gum. If you really want to step in it you can always find some.

[CO Liberal]

31. Especially When It's So Abundant

[el_gato]

35. but somehow you want to lump everybody into that category

when the truth is there are all kinds of people in the world
including gun owning liberals

[CO Liberal]

40. Let Me Try This ONE MORE TIME......

1. Not all gun owners are racists.

2. Some gun owners are racists.

3. Many leaders of the pro-gun movement (such as Ted Nugent and Larry Pratt) are racists. This does not make all gun owners racists. But when the majority of gun owners do nothing to distance themselves from the Nugents and Pratts, it casts all of them in a bad light.

[el_gato]

46. and thus guilt by association is all you have to offer

NEXT!

[CO Liberal]

47. That Does It

You're on my "ignore" list.

[el_gato]

54. it's better you ignore things that contradict your phoney arguments

otherwise you might have to acknowledge the truth

[MrBenchley]

62. Interesting, isn't it?

More than sixty posts in this thread...and not a single member of the RKBA crowd has even tried to put up a link to any gun owner forum where some non-racist gun owner is even criticizing Ted Nugent mildly.

Are you surprised there's no link? I'm not surprised.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

113. You Spin

You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round round round

[Man_in_the_Moon]

59. try this one

1- Not all anti-gunners are racists (or elitists, or classists, or republicans).

2- Some anti-gunners are racists (or elitists, or classists, or republicans).

3- Many leaders in the anti-gun movement are racists (or elitists, or classists, or republicans). This does not make all anti-gunners racists (or elitists, or classists, or republicans). But when the majority of anti-gunners do nothing to distance themselves from the Bradys, it casts them in a bad light.

[MrBenchley]

36. So then it ought to be a piece of cake for you, slack

"How many "gun owner" forums do you read regularly? If you hop into one looking for evidence of racism I'm sure you can find it. "
So all you have to do is show us one of these common occurrences, and all the posts that follow from gun owners condemning it.

[Liberal Classic]

8. Inplication: There are none.

I guess any Democratic gun owner is likewise a racist too. Way to go, Bench.

[MrBenchley]

16. Hey, find us even one then....

"I guess any Democratic gun owner is likewise a racist too."
Funny these Democratic gun owners don't speak out, isn't it? Or are you trying to pretend that no Democratic gun owners ever go near these gun owners sites?

[sybylla]

18. A Democratic gun owner going to gun forums

is like a DUer going to Freeperland. Basically, it is preeeeety pointless. But I bet you go over to Freeperland and point out their idiocy every chance you get, don't you, Benchley?

[MrBenchley]

22. Say what?

"A Democratic gun owner going to gun forums is like a DUer going to Freeperland."
A-a-and why is THAT? After all, we're constantly told down here that this is an argument that does not conform to party lines, that Democrats are welcome wherever gun owners gather, and that there are plenty of rootin' tootin' gun-totin' liberals.

[sybylla]

45. Because as you demonstrate rather well, Benchley

just like freepers, many people hold onto ideas about gun ownership regardless of their logic and no amount of discussion and facts will sway them. So why bother?

[MrBenchley]

51. You have strange ideas of what a "demonstration" is

"many people hold onto ideas about gun ownership regardless of their logic and no amount of discussion and facts"
So far we've had ZERO logic and ZERO facts from the RKBA side. All we've got is this constant refrain about how unfair, somehow, it is to ask this very reasonable question.

Remember, it's not like there's any shortage of gun owners forums with gun owners spouting off on nearly every subject under the sun. But not only do there seem to be none condemning this very noticeable racism by gun rights spokepeople....it is as if the RKBA crowd already knows there will be none.

[sybylla]

66. Ah, the old "change the subject" trick.

Useful for avoiding facts.

[MrBenchley]

75. Keep trying it....it might work for you

but so far it's a total bust.

[pnb]

10. Because they are not related

The people in the NRA are concerned with the beliefs about GUNS of the NRA leaders. That's what matters to them.

Its only people like you who need to reach for ways to villify people in order to attempt to prove a point who think that two should somehow be related.

[MrBenchley]

17. The hell they're not.

"Its only people like you"
Liberals?

"who need to reach for ways to villify people"
Don't have to reach at all...Nugent spouts his bigotry right out loud for all to hear.

[sybylla]

19. Ever study logic?

Nugent is a gun owner
Nugent is a racist
Therefore all gun owners are racists.


Your logic fails.

[MrBenchley]

23. Yeah I did...

"Nugent is a gun owner
Nugent is a racist
Therefore all gun owners are racists. "
Yeah, but that's not the argument, and you know it. For one thing, Nugent is not just any two-bit gun owner BUT one of the heads of the largest gun owner group in the country and a screaming honking BIG racist. What does it say that no gun owners can be found condemning him?

Even more to the point, what does it say that the gun owners here don't seem to be even attempting to look for a gun owner who is condemning him?

[el_gato]

37. ha ha ha ha ha

"Nugent is a gun owner
Nugent is not just any two-bit gun owner BUT one of the heads of the largest gun owner group in the country and a screaming honking BIG racist.
What does it say that no gun owners can be found condemning him?

Even more to the point, what does it say that the gun owners here don't seem to be even attempting to look for a gun owner who is condemning him?"
Therefore all gun owners are racist.


same shit

[MrBenchley]

39. So show us one, gato....

"what does it say that the gun owners here don't seem to be even attempting to look for a gun owner who is condemning him?"

[el_gato]

49. your phoney arguments don't fool anybody

does beleiving in the right to gun ownership make me racist?

I'm living proof your arguments are flawed.

[sybylla]

50. See post 42

Or are you afraid to look at the truth? Go on, discredit me. One gun owner knocking Nugent down won't be good enough for you, will it. You want more. You need more. Your arguements are like an addiction and you cannot let go. Come on, admit it. One gun owner has stood up and said Nugent is and asshole and shouldn't be on the board of the local community privy (or at least I do now).

[MrBenchley]

53. I'm not afraid to look at the truth...

But the truth seems to be that there's nary a gun owner on any gun owner forum willing to condemn Nugent's racism....and that the RKBA crowd here knows it perfectly well.

"One gun owner knocking Nugent down won't be good enough for you, will it."
At this rate, we'll never know, will we?

[el_gato]

55. i have several times

but you pretend otherwise

[Man_in_the_Moon]

112. You Spin

You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round round round

[pnb]

21. Wow MrB

"Its only people like you"
Liberals?

Not liberals...people who can't use logic to back up their argument and look for anything to "back up" their agenda.

"who need to reach for ways to villify people"
Don't have to reach at all...Nugent spouts his bigotry right out loud for all to hear.

No matter how often it is pointed out to you, you just don't (won't) get the fact that your logic does not follow in the slightest bit. You can villify Nugent for being racist all you want...but to apply that racism to all gun owners because Nugent also likes guns is just plain wrong.

All cats are mammals
I am a mammal
Therefore I am a cat.

That is the logic you are using. And that goes back to the first point as well.

[MrBenchley]

27. Wow right back atcha

"people who can't use logic to back up their argument"

<sarcasm>A claims B
Therefore I say they know no logic, put forth a simplistic syllogism having nothing to so with the issue and claim victory.</sarcasm>
Ah, RKBA "logic"....glad I don't have any.

"to apply that racism to all gun owners because Nugent also likes guns"
In fact, I haven't applied any racism to any gun owners. I'm just wondering aloud why there isn't even the slightest sign of any gun owner anywhere who's willing to "villify Nugent for being racist" in public, given this aversion to racism you guys are claiming.

What I find even more significant is that nobody on the RKBA side seems to be even looking for that sort of a post by a non-racist gun owner. It's almost like you know there won't be even one.

[sybylla]

14. How many times in one month are you going to march this one out

I don't even go to the gun dungeon and this is at least the second time you've tried to fly this flag.

First, you say "So, if as we are told, all gun owners are not racist". Do you really think all gun owners are racist? For that is the implication if this statement is not true.

Second, there are many gun owners such as myself who don't belong to gun organizations for many reasons.

Third, speaking out against a board member of the NRA, an organization to which I don't belong, will get me as far as speaking out against a board member of PETA, another organization to which I do not belong (for similar reasons, I might add).

Lastly, once again I meet someone on DU who sees the world only in black and white. I'm either with the NRA or agin it. I'm either with you or agin' you. I wish the world were as simple as you view of it, MrBenchley. Then elitism, posturing and puffery would be the easy solution to everything.

[MrBenchley]

20. It's a fair question.

"Do you really think all gun owners are racist?"
I've never claimed any such thing...and NOW I'm openly inviting evidence to the contrary. Let's see some evidence of the hordes of gun owners speaking out to condemn the open racism of figures who loom large in their world....Or even one of them doing so.

"there are many gun owners such as myself who don't belong to gun organizations for many reasons. "
So? Did you have to be Republican to condemn Trent Lott when he openly yearned for the days of Jim Crow?

"once again I meet someone on DU who sees the world only in black and white"
And once again I meet someone claiming to be a gun owner dodging a simple question.

[Liberal Classic]

30. You absoltely have claimed the gun vote is the racist vote

People in this forum are accustomed to prevarication from you, Mister Benchley. You know very well that you have said in plain language the gun vote is the racist vote, and I am unsuprised you now deny it.

Nor do you invite evidence to the contrary, since any example is immediately dismissed. You said that the Pink Pistols either do not exist in reality or if they do they are an NRA front organization.

So, I am quite convinced you're inviting flames not debate.

[MrBenchley]

44. So liberal, prove me wrong...

Let's see even one message on a gun owners forum condemning Ted Nugent's racism...

you have said in plain language the gun vote is the racist vote
And messages on a gun owners forum condemning Larry Pratt for racism would certainly prove me wrong...yet nobody seems to have any. Or even be looking for any.

"You said that the Pink Pistols either do not exist in reality or if they do they are an NRA front organization."
And I pretty much proved it too.....imagine "gay activists" who haven't got boo to say about right wing shits who want them dead and in hell, but are bent out of shape by the American Academy of Pediatricians recommending parents keep guns away from kids. It's not even particularly plausible as a front...and their own website links to the right wing think tank that cooked them up.

[Liberal Classic]

71. Here is proof you claim the gun vote is racist

"So liberal, prove me wrong..."

You do claim that anyone who supports the individual right to own firearms is racist. You tirelessly dance around the issue hoping the moderators won't pull your post because you are only implying racism, but on occasion your temper gets the best of you and you post what you truly believe.

Here is a link to my post, which quoted your post. Convienently for you, your post was removed by the moderator for containing hateful speech.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=19938&mesg_id=19989&page=

Here is the whole thread, which is quite long.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=19938#19989

Here is your removed post. Not much to see after the censor's razor:


Name removed (0 posts)
Tue Nov-04-03 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Alert Printer Friendly | | Top



And here is my reply to your post. Fortunately, I quoted your rather blatant remarks. You once dared me to prove you had claimed belief in the individual right to firearms was synonymous with racism, but your post had been removed and I could not conclusively reply.


Liberal Classic (1000+ posts)
Tue Nov-04-03 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. There it is again: anyone who doesn't support gun control is a racist


The gun nut vote hates blacks, gays, Jews and uppity women as much as they love them guns...

Plain to see by all.

Alert Printer Friendly | | Top


After this post you tried to deflect the issue, drawing parallels to the Knights of the Ku Kluck Klan and other unsavory people, but not refuting my point that you believe gun owners are racist. You even went so far as to point to the KKK and claim they supported gun rights for African Americans, and another time you claimed Phred Phelps believes in gun rights for gays. More evasion.

It is plainly clear that you do believe that gun owners or anyone who believes in an individual right are racist. You react with hostility to anyone who questions your position, whether they are a gun owner or not.

I would ask politely that you cut it out. There are plenty of things to debate such as the nature of the framer's positions, the utility of firearms in the modern world, etc. But your racist jibes are a losing proposition, and they make Justice/Public Safely an unhappy forum.

Can't we all just get along?

[MrBenchley]

77. So liberal

I guess this thread pretty much backs up my position, then.

"The gun nut vote hates blacks, gays, Jews and uppity women as much as they love them guns..."
Guess I was 100% accurate after all, eh? And the gun nut vote don't seem to be in the least upset by open bigotry expressed by their leaders...while nobody here can find a page on a gun owners forum where any gun owner expresses any contrary opinions to the ones I've characterized.

I find it interesting that nobody here seems to be even trying to....

[Liberal Classic]

80. So, you do not deny that you believe the gun vote to be the racist vote

"The gun nut vote hates blacks, gays, Jews and uppity women as much as they love them guns..." Guess I was 100% accurate after all, eh? And the gun nut vote don't seem to be in the least upset by open bigotry expressed by their leaders...

Your true colors show after all. I am not a member of the NRA, nor am I a member of the GOA. I happen to hate Nuget's music and think Barr, being one of the biggest drug-warriors, is one of the worst politicians in D.C.

You, Benchley, are every bit as bigoted as they are.

[MrBenchley]

82. Gee, at this point

I got damn few doubts myself. I find it hilarious that none of the RKBA crowd is even trying to produce anything that can be characterized as evidence otherwise...probably because they can't find any.

"Your true colors show after all."
Yup, I'm happy to say I'm all for blacks, gays, Jews and uppity women. More power to them. Long may they wave.

"You, Benchley, are every bit as bigoted as they are."
Not even close to true...but it's hilarious of you to pretend so.

[Liberal Classic]

83. Some things on which we agree

Yup, I'm happy to say I'm all for blacks, gays, Jews and uppity women. More power to them. Long may they wave.

Me too.

However, when it comes to anyone who supports the individual right to own firearms, you immediately jerk your knee. Maybe you should get it checked. Some of those African Americans, Jews, Asians, Native Americans, and so forth own guns. They might not be racists after all. If there's anything we need to get out of this discussion is to understand that painting all gun owners as racist is itself bigoted.

[MrBenchley]

85. Thank Koresh for small favors

"when it comes to anyone who supports the individual right to own firearms, you immediately jerk your knee"
And with good reason it seems. Again, let's see even one post on a gun nut forum condemning Ted's racism. Or let's see one condemning a specific instance of racism by another gun nut.

"Maybe you should get it checked."
So far it's checking out as right on the money..

"Some of those African Americans, Jews, Asians, Native Americans, and so forth own guns."
A-a-a-a-a-and how many of them know that what John AshKKKroft, Wayne LaPierre and Bob Barr are all peddling on every issue is a great big steaming pantload? I'd wager pretty much all of them do.

[Liberal Classic]

87. No, painting all gun owners as racist is wrong. Plain and simple

"Some of those African Americans, Jews, Asians, Native Americans, and so forth own guns."

A-a-a-a-a-and how many of them know that what John AshKKKroft, Wayne LaPierre and Bob Barr are all peddling on every issue is a great big steaming pantload? I'd wager pretty much all of them do.

I'm sure a lot of them dislike Ashcroft and Barr. Heck, I do too. But that doesn't mean I believe gun owners are racists. If Ted said any of that white pride crap then he is a racist, and I'll condemn him up and down the block. But that doesn't change the fact painting all gun owners as racists is of itself a form bigorty. It's wrong, Benchley.

[MrBenchley]

89. Prove it.

"But that doesn't mean I believe gun owners are racists."
Fine. Find us any gun owner on any gun owner forum condemning Ted's very public racism. Or condemning any of the other racist statements and actions of the leaders of the two largest gunn owners groups. Or even complaining out loud about any racist statements and actions of the leaders of the two largest gun owners groups.

"If Ted said any of that white pride crap then he is a racist, and I'll condemn him up and down the block."
If?

[Liberal Classic]

90. I'm condemning it.

Barr and Ashcroft really suck, particularly because they hold public office. I'll read the Common Dreams link later. But it is still wrong to paint all gun owners as racist. It is a form of prejudice to believe that all gun owners are the same as Heston or Nuget.

[MrBenchley]

91. So prove it.

Let's see any statement by any gun owner on any gun owner forum condemning Nugent...or even criticizing him slightly.

[Liberal Classic]

92. I've already proved you wrong once

Let's see any statement by any gun owner on any gun owner forum condemning Nugent...or even criticizing him slightly.

Obviously it's not good enough for you to take the my word, or the word of anyone else in Justice Public Safety. I've already proved you wrong once, I don't see why I should do so again just to satisfy your perpetual denials and negativity. You'll just say "oh, he's the only one" or stuff like that.

Painting all gun owners as racist is wrong. You know it, I know it. Stick to condemning people like Ashcroft and Barr and we'll all be better off. Paint all gun owners as racists and you're going to annoy some fellow Democrats.

[MrBenchley]

93. Too too funny....

"Obviously it's not good enough for you to take the my word, or the word of anyone else in Justice Public Safety."
So you're telling us there ARE gun nuts criticizing Ted Nguent on gun nut forums...but we're just to take that on faith? Hahahahahaha!

"You'll just say "oh, he's the only one""
Too TOO funny. So far even he seems to be as real as Iraq's WMDs. Why, if there was even a minority of gun owners who aren't racists, the gun nut forums ought to be bristling with criticism of Ted....but there isn't even one.

[Liberal Classic]

94. Hey, I don't read gun fora.

But the folks I know in person aren't racists. I don't associate with Kluckers.

Why, if there was even a minority of gun owners who aren't racists, the gun nut forums ought to be bristling with criticism of Ted....but there isn't even one.

You do read gun boards? Which ones?

[MrBenchley]

96. Funnier and funnier

[sybylla]

42. What questions did I dodge?

Didn't see you ask any. You're just making statements and daring people to refute them.

Yes, I condemned Trent Lott and I condemn Ted Nugent and any other's like him for their racism - publicly. But Trent Lott only backed down from his assinine statements when members of his own party condemned him and Ted Nugent will be Ted Nugent and have a position on the board of the NRA until members of the NRA speak out against him. As I am not a member of the NRA, very little I can say will make a difference, just like, as I am a Democrat, very little I can say against repukes will do any good.

And once again you HAVE met someone claiming to be a gun owner and I certainly claim to not be racist. Of course, the only way I can prove any of it it to you is to find a television station that will put my face on it and show me holding a gun denouncing the Nugents of the world.

And once again I meet someone claiming to be a thinking liberal, but the only evidence I have of that is his illogical postings on DU. Where's the evidence, Benchley?

[MrBenchley]

56. The central one

Let's see some evidence of the hordes of gun owners on any gun forum speaking out to condemn the open racism of figures who loom large in their world....Or even one of them doing so.

So on what gun owners forum did you condemn Ted Nugent?

"Where's the evidence, Benchley?"
Mounting up by the minute, it seems.

[sybylla]

63. That's not a question, its a demand.

You don't get to define the arguement, Benchley. Demand all you want. Why should we do your research for you? You appear to feel the need to pointlessly argue. Why don't you go to these forums and look for yourself?

Already answered your gun forum question at post 18. We're just feeding that addiction, aren't we?

[MrBenchley]

81. Hahahahahahaha....

"You don't get to define the arguement, Benchley."
Uh, yes I do. I started this thread.

"Why should we do your research for you?"
Uh, because you're trying to claim that gun owners aren't raccist...and doing a really poor job of it too.

"Why don't you go to these forums and look for yourself?"
Been there, done that. That's how I know you guys are going to have heavy weather trying to find even one. What amuses me no end though, is that nobody on the RKBA side is even making an attempt....it's almost as if they know racist comments are common on gun owners forums (just as slack said) and go by the assembled bunch without the slightest murmur of complaint or criticism...

[slackmaster]

26. They're all around you, MrBenchley

People like me and others who contribute to these discussions.

Your neighbors, acquaintences, relatives, co-workers, maybe even friends (if any). People you see walking on the street or dining in the fine restaurants of New Jersey. Go out to the mall or to a movie and you'll be surrounded by them.

Gun owners are people like everyone else, MrBenchley. There are bad ones and good ones, smart ones, dumb ones, old ones, young ones. Rich, poor, educated or not, and in every color that skin comes in.

Remember this, MrBenchley. Any random adult stranger you see has about a one in three chance of being a gun owner.

Remember.

[MrBenchley]

33. Hahahahahahahaha....

"Gun owners are people like everyone else, MrBenchley."
Gee, it isn't too hard to find people like everyone else, generally disgusted by racism of the sort Nugent and Pratt openly display. So how is it that nobody can find any gun owners willing to speak up on their own forums among their peers?

[slackmaster]

41. I see you haven't made much effort to find them yourself

I respect your right to embrace and take comfort in your prejudices, and your right to remain ignorant.

[MrBenchley]

57. Gee, slack

I dug enough to satisfy myself that they're scarcer than hens' teeth. Their absence speaks volumes. But thanks for the BIG laugh.

[sybylla]

69. And your absence in Freeperland bitchslapping racist repukes says volumes

You must be a racist liberal. How can you say you're not racist if you don't spend every moment of every day shouting down racists in Freeperland, LoopyLuciville and others? Fucking Dems anyway. They're all a bunch of racists.

Try again. Prove that non racist RKBA supporters don't exist. Prove that they don't appear on gun forums taking down racists. Prove that they have never spoken against Nugent, the NRA and others like them.

[MrBenchley]

84. Mostly it says "the RKBA crowd is REALLY desperate"

"Prove that non racist RKBA supporters don't exist."
Seems like you guys are a fair way along doing just that. You'd think one of you could find even one post on some gun nut haven that was even mildly critical of Nugent's open racism. It's not like he's been particularly shy in expressing it.

Again, it's not like I'm asking all of gun nut-dom to stand up and be counted. But there doesn't seem to be even one who speaks up where his fellow gun nuts can hear him.

[el_gato]

32. guilt by association is all this dynamic duo have to offer

it's old but it's like a broken record that someone forgot to turn off

logic is not benchly's strong point

[RoeBear]

60. You had my blood pressure going through the roof...

...till I started to read the thread.

You excerpted:
BTW: Don't miss the guy on highroadrage who jokes about "the Negro Removal Association."

The entire post is:
"Back when Winchester's Black Talons were causing such a ruckus, a commentator for NPR called NRA the Negro Removal Association, only she used a different word for Negro..."
If it's a joke, he's joking about a racist working for NPR.

The next post in the thread says:
"Shooters are too polite and level-headed to stoop to racism."

And the first poster reponds:
"Oh that I wish that were true, Wolf."

Not the worst conversation I've ever heard.

[MrBenchley]

64. Not the best, either...

[RoeBear]

116. No, but...

...you put it forth as some wild eyed gun owning racist spouting about killing blacks.

[Hammie]

61. What the hell are you talking about?

I am a memeber of both the NRA and the GOA. I've never heard, or read, any racist comment by the leaders of either organization. I don't know that it would matter too much if they did hold those views as long as it wasn't reflected in the official activities of the organization.

Since you claim that these people are overt racists please post authoritative references to support your assertion.

BTW, authoritative does not include anonymous posters on an internet board.



IBTL

[MrBenchley]

70. Ho-kay.....

"I've never heard, or read, any racist comment by the leaders of either organization."

"MUSKEGON, Mich. (AP) -- Derogatory racial remarks from rocker Ted Nugent have cost him a gig at the Muskegon Summer Celebration.
Festival officials canceled Nugent's concert following an interview last week with two Denver disc jockeys in which the DJs say he used slurs for Asians and blacks. The festival was scrambling to find a replacement."

http://www.staugustine.com/stories/051903/com_1545346.shtml

"Just because one is given the freedom of speech doesn't mean that one must go around insulting and bullying others of differing opinions," wrote Gayle. "Years ago, before I knew this side of him, I was a Nugent fan. Now, I just think he is pathetic and wouldn't buy an album or ticket if someone held a bow and arrow to me (and Nugent probably would)."
"I attended the KISS concert at the Meadowlands and Ted Nugent was totally off base there also," Jose revealed. "He made many racist remarks and also wore his beloved Confederate flag. Ted Nugent seems to forget that the only real Americans are the Native American Indians. He claims to despise immigrants but if he does his research I'm sure he will find that his ancestors were immigrants also. So if Ted Nugent doesn't like the fact that America is made up of immigrants he can keep his country a** in the woods." "

http://www.vh1.com/artists/news/1436724/07212000/nugent_ted.jhtml

National Rifle Association (NRA) Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre has once again demonstrated the core values of the NRA's leadership: hypocrisy and racism. As a guest on CBS News' Face the Nation this past Sunday, LaPierre was asked about a recent column he wrote for American Rifleman in which he stated: "There are many politicians willing to sacrifice the Second Amendment as the first step in the homogenization of American culture."

Denying that the statement contained "racial overtones," LaPierre claimed that the NRA "has a proud relationship with the African-American community." Research by the Violence Policy Center (VPC), however, finds that LaPierre's "homogenization" concerns are simply the latest in a long line of racist statements by NRA officials. For example:

-- Current NRA President Charlton Heston, in defending "white pride" in a speech before the Free Congress Foundation, urged the audience to "draw your sword and fight" against a variety of opponents, including "blacks who raise a militant fist with one hand while they seek preference with the other." He told his listeners, "Mainstream America is counting on you."

-- Current NRA Board Member Jeff Cooper, in dismissing urban gun victims - the majority of which are young black males - wrote in Guns & Ammo that "the consensus is that no more than five to ten people in a hundred who die by gunfire in Los Angeles are any loss to society. These people fight small wars amongst themselves. It would seem a valid social service to keep them well-supplied with ammunition."

-- Current NRA Research Coordinator Paul Blackman, echoing Cooper's views, has written that "studies of homicide victims -- especially the increasing number of younger ones -- suggest they are frequently criminals themselves and/or drug addicts or users. It is quite possible that their deaths, in terms of economic consequences to society, are net gains."

-- Current NRA Board Member Ted Nugent, commenting on South Africa, has observed that "apartheid isn't that cut and dry. All men are not created equal."

http://www.commondreams.org/news2000/0516-03.htm

"Rep. Bob Barr, R-Ga., NRA Board Member
In 1998, Rep. Bob Barr, R-Ga., gave the keynote address at the semi-annual meeting of the Council of Conservative Citizens (C of CC), an ultra-conservative, white-supremacist organization. The C of CC has warned that interracial marriage "amounts to white genocide" and that Jews have "turned spite into welfare billions." Before his keynote at the meeting, Barr sat through a youth panel, during which "the racial views of some of the members were made explicit." He was also photographed with the C of CC’s president. A picture of Barr embracing a C of CC national director appeared in the organization’s official newspaper, the Citizens Informer. According to Gordon Lee Baum, the C of CC’s chief executive, Barr "knew what we were all about before he spoke to us. We don’t invite people and let them walk into the dark on us." "

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/5597

"In 1996, Larry Pratt served as Buchanan's presidential campaign co-chairman. Pratt heads Gun Owners of America, but more important, is a key figure in American militia circles. Pratt attended the infamous October 1992 militia planning session in Colorado hosted by the notorious racist Christian Identity pastor Pete Peters. Pratt has shared the stage at rallies with Aryan Nation Chief Richard Butler and former KKK leader and guerrilla warfare specialist Louis Beam. Pratt resigned after the media exposed his ties to the neo-Nazi and white supremacist fringe."

http://www.columbusalive.com/1999/19990930/bob.html

[CO Liberal]

74. I Believe MrBenchley Has Made His Point

Any comment, Hammie?????

[Man_in_the_Moon]

76. He had a point?

What was it other than to insult fellow members of DU?

[MrBenchley]

88. No insult, moon...

It was a dandy chance for rootin' tootin' gun-totin' DUers to brag in public about all the times on gun owners forums when they spoke up against Ted Nugent's racism...or condemned other gun owners who spouted racist claptrap in public...

Still is.

[slackmaster]

103. Your search skills leave much to be desired

Five minutes on ONE firearms-related discussion, five negative remarks about Ted Nugent found by a simple search:

"Ted Nugent is an idiot... His only redeeming value is that he is pro-gun.
Take a look at his book, if you have any sort of logic in your life, you will see that he is an idiot."

"As a person with morals, I agree. He is a pretty crass individual. As far as I know he has never come out and said thet he regrets his past actions with women.

I value him as a musician and as a RKBA advocate, I would not hold him up as a role model for my children."

"Any of you guys see the VH1 show "Surviving Nugent?" I watched it today, and thought it was outstanding. The guy's a nut job, but the show was hilarious."

"I thought Ted shooting at them with the paintball gun was a little over the top but what the hell."

All found while waiting for a database restore job to finish.

[MrBenchley]

105. Let's see the link, slack....

By the way, not a single word in what you quoted about his racism...which is, after all, the topic under discussion.

[slackmaster]

110. Membership is required - Links would be pointless

Do your own research MrBenchley, and I suggest you try doing it with an open mind for once. As I've pointed out several times, if you go looking for shit you can find it just about anywhere. If all you look for is shit you will end up with a big sack of shit and have learned nothing about the world.

I don't give a rat's ass what Ted Nugent says. I think he's a mediocre musician and an idiot. He says stupid things all the time, and has been doing so for about 30 years now. Ted Nugent can paddle his own goddamn canoe. You're apparently the only contributor to this discussion who thinks Ted Nugent's views or idiotic remarks make jack shit difference to anyone. If we all went on a witch hunt every time a prominent Democrat said something stupid and got into hot water for it we wouldn't have much time for anything else.

Ted Nugent does not represent my views. Only I represent my views.

Five minutes of my time looking for pro-RKBA people who agree that Ted Nugent is an idiot plus five more to type this is all I care to invest in a futile effort to convince you to let go of your bigoted ideas.

Remember, there are gun owners everywhere.

[MrBenchley]

114. Yeah, surrrrrrrrre....

"As I've pointed out several times, if you go looking for shit you can find it just about anywhere."
And if you go to a gun owners forum, you'll find the mother lode.

"You're apparently the only contributor to this discussion who thinks Ted Nugent's views or idiotic remarks make jack shit difference to anyone."
Gee I didn't put that racist imbecile on the BOARD OF THE LARGEST GUN OWNERS GROUP IN THE WORLD, slack. Gun owners did....and they seem utterly unconcerned about him being openly racist. It would be a swell time for somebody to prove how wrong that perception was IF THAT PERCEPTION WAS WRONG with JUST a few links...and yet nobody seems able to do so.

"Remember, there are gun owners everywhere."
And it appears the ones spouting this gun rights rubbish think having a racist imbecile representing them is just hunky dory.

[MrBenchley]

86. Interesting isn't it?

Seventy five posts in, and nobody can link to even one statement on a gun owners forum even mildly critical of the openly racist scumbags heading up the gun owners' groups.

Nobody has even tried to. Instead there's all this wailing about how unfair it is to point out the absence of these posts because...well, it's unfair, that's all.

Are you surprised? I'm not surprised.

[Superfly]

95. I think I speak for a lot of DUers here

when I say that you, Mr.Benchley, have gone off the deep end.

[MrBenchley]

97. Prove it fly....

Let's see even one gun nut bitching about Ted Nugent's racism on any gun nut forum.

Funny as hell that the RKBA crowd can't come up with even ONE.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

100. I dont think we cant come up with one

I think it is more that we dont think this useless and assinine topic deserves the time.

I would think that anyone with more than half a brain would be able to figure that one out, err sorry if that leaves you out.

[MrBenchley]

104. Gee, moon, you might as well go to personal attacks

It's pretty clear that the RKBA crowd's come up dry on FACTS again. Just as it's clear that for all the hooting and bellowing, there's not a single gun owner on any gun owners forum even mildly critical in public of the open racism of the two largest gun owners groups' leaders.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

106. I have yet to see you with a fact

As a matter of fact in the months you have been here I dont think I have ever heard you spout a fact or even the truth.

I find it funny that since your facts have not held up you are not relegated to accusing anyone that disagrees with you of being a racist.

It really goes to show you lack of argument, facts, and truth.

[MrBenchley]

108. Cry me a river, moon.

I've dealt in nothing BUT facts.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

109. What a pantload

nt

[1a2b3c]

98. At last check i wasnt racist

Although i do think asians have to be the WORST drivers on the planet.

[beevul]

99. Where ARE the non-elitist gun grabbers?

Let's see even one gun grabber bitching about sara brady's elitism on any gun grabber forum.

Just one shouldnt be too hard, right?

Sauce for the goose.

[MrBenchley]

101. So you don't have even one either.....

"Let's see even one gun grabber bitching about sara brady's elitism"
Jeeze, you mean she's part of the <gasp!> liberal elite? <snicker> So am I. Better that, than be part of the racist scum clogging the aisles of gun shows.

And we've reached 100 posts without even one non-racist gun owner post from a gun owners' forum even mildly peeved in public at racist Ted Nugent. Who is surprised nobody can find even one?

[beevul]

117. Just pointing out...

I was just pointing out that ANYONE can pick up a wide brush and paint.


"And we've reached 100 posts without even one non-elitist gun grabber post from a gun grabbers' forum even mildly peeved in public at elitist Sara Brady. Who is surprised nobody can find even one?"

Same brush, different shade.

[BullDozer]

102. How many strikes do you get?

"So where are the threads on gun owner forums complaining about the open racism of some of the loudest "gun rights" voices?"

It's quite simple really, they just aren't jumping up at something that isn't there! Open racism my ass! It's spin spin and more spin to try and apply the dreaded racist label. A crying shame for you that it won't stick when it's looked at by reasonable people.

From the thread on thehighroad.
"when you have your back to the wall, just call the other side racist. "
Sounds familiar to me.

I'm telling you if those "comments" are the best thing you have going to try and prove that someone let alone an organization as a whole is "virulent publicly racist" then your cause is totally lost.


Ted Nuget
http://www.unearthed.com/news/2003/05/0000017449.shtml
"Moreover, throughout my 40-year career in the media, I have constantly praised the long list of black musical influences that shaped me as a young musician and continue to inspire me today. Furthermore, I have hired blacks and Mexicans to play in my band. Yet I'm a racist? I'll admit I'm a racist when you admit that one plus one equals seventeen. Shock and awe that. If you're waiting for an apology, I suggest you pack a lunch." "

How is it that Bob Barr is such a "virulent publicly racist" that the ACLU hired him as a consultant?


On Larry Pratt
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/Scoundrel_Time_Is_Back.htm
"Larry once attended an informational meeting about the federal government's killing of Sammy and Vicki Weaver. Among the other people who attended the meeting were leaders of racist organizations, and the meeting was organized by a racist.

In other words, Larry must be guilty by association. (sounds like a familiar weak ass tactic Even though no one denies that Pratt told the racists at the meeting that he rejected their views. In addition, Pratt was reported to have spoken at rallies that were attended by people in racist groups. What is Pratt supposed to do, post guards at every speech he makes to keep out anyone who may be a racist? Even by this high standard, Pratt has done pretty well. "
snip
"At a "Preparedness Expo," Larry went to the show's promoter and successfully urged him to order several racist organizations to remove their booths from the premises.

"When Dr. Dean made his misstatement about the Confederate flag, Democrats spoke right up. And what Dean said was only insensitive; it wasn't overtly racist."

Why was it immediately defended because it was being taken far out of context and intent that's why which is exactly the same damn thing the anti-gun whackos are trying to do with the racist bullshit.

If you want to make a charge of racism stick you'd damn well better to a much better job of it than you have so far. Only the hypersensitive or anti-gun zealots would fall for your "evidence" as you've presented it.


Now go on and peddle your stolen bullshit from the radical ban all handguns right now VPC.

[MrBenchley]

107. Too funny, dozer....

You want to stick up for those racist swine Nugent and Pratt, go right ahead.

"If you want to make a charge of racism stick"
I don't have to. Your post does it for me.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

111. Spin baby SPIN!!!

nt

[FlashHarry]

118. Locking

This is a continuation of a series of previously locked threads.

FlashHarry
DU Moderator