Can we list some of the big anti-gun lies or half truths.?

[Tim01]

I want a list of the things that actually make people anti-gun. These are the things I would like to straighten out. These are the things that would probably help us the most.

For example the intentional lie that "assault weapons" are machine guns. Let me know, thanks.I've already told my story of my Army pistol team friend who said "No hunter worth his salt needs a machine gun to hunt deer." That kind of misinformation is what I am talking about.
He is no longer in favor of the AWB by the way, and he is kind of pissed that he was tricked.

[iverglas]

1. for example

the intentional lie that "assault weapons" are machine guns

any old crap you can pull out of an orifice.


Take your best shot.

I'll put Ted Nugent and many more up against anything you can come up with.

[TPaine7]

28. See post 26.

What do you have from Ted Nugent that compares to the misogynistic, barbaric, illogical, irrational, criminal coddling BS that a woman cannot use deadly force to protect herself from the threat of AIDS, hepatitis, HPV, drug resistant syphilis or the like?

Name one right winger who is that depraved.

[iverglas]

2. "my Army pistol team friend"

I want a list of the things that actually make people anti-gun.
... I've already told my story of my Army pistol team friend who said "No hunter worth his salt needs a machine gun to hunt deer." That kind of misinformation is what I am talking about.

So hm. He was "anti-gun", one assumes.

No, that seems unlikely.

Just really, really, really stupid?

Or just saying what your average normal person would agree with, regardless of what anybody called the bleeding things.

[Buzz cook]

3. "No hunter worth his salt needs a machine gun to hunt deer."

I guess that's a lie. Tim wouldn't lie about that.

[Tim01]

7. My assault weapon I hunt deer with isn't a machine gun.

Do you get it now?

[Buzz cook]

21. But that's not what you said. nt

.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. When you call a semi-auto 'assault weapon' type rifle a 'assault rifle' you are using specific

military nomenclature that means 'machine gun'. Part of the definition of 'assault rifle' is select-fire, meaning, the capability to fire fully automatic or burst, which means 'machine gun'.

Assault Weapon is fine, it's legal nomenclature that defines various things like a semi-auto with a pistol grip or the ability to accept large capacity magazines. But using 'assault rifle' carelessly, is disingenious. It means 'machine gun'. It is misleading.

[DissedByBush]

53. By definition an assault rifle has these features

An individual weapon designed to be shoulder-fired.

Detachable magazine.

Selective fire (single shot/burst/automatic).

Fires a round more powerful than a pistol but less powerful than a standard rifle. Only a few types of assault rifle ammunition get to 30.06 power while most are far less powerful because those are uncontrollable on full auto.

[Tim01]

40. Of course that's not what I said. And that is my point.

The gun control organizations have admitted they intentionally confused people by making up the term "assault weapon".
My friend thought an assault weapon is an assault rifle, which it is not. And so, he, like so vary many who do not sit down and study this word game, came to believe that people all these semi-autos are actually fully autos.
He believed my black guns that I hunt deer with, were fully auto because he was told they are assault weapons.

Many people are kind of disgusted by the image of a guy going into the woods with a machine gun and spraying a deer with bullets. And that is exactly what the gun-ban organizations were trying to do. It worked.

Just try to explain to some average people that assault weapons are not machine guns and see what happens. Don't take it from me, find out for yourself. I just went through it AGAIN with my friends from D.C. I think they still can't believe I am right on this.

[friendly_iconoclast]

44. Some gun owners *still* aren't getting the distinction

Fortunately, the rift between ~some~ hunters and other gun owners seems to have mostly healed over

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=461705&mesg_id=462331">There still are a few bitter holdouts, it seems

This particular poster seemed put out that the gun-owning public at large wants to own guns designed less than a century ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=461705&mesg_id=462752">I pointed out that his 'traditional' guns were derived from ones used to kill millions during various wars

[Tim01]

45. It kills me sometimes. I'm glad to see we are making ground though.

Who would have ever thought the banning of assault weapons would be the thing to catapult them to top of the popularity list of american guns? Not me. I SHOULD have seen that one coming, but I didn't really.

And now people are starting to understand the lie.

[rl6214]

43. Anyone familiar with the lies

Knows exactly what he was talking about. Are you really that dense or do you just intentionally want to yank his chain?

[Buzz cook]

46. I intentionally want to yank his chain

Why should I allow him to get away with a lack of specificity?
I've read enough of the threads here that it looks doubtful that a supporter of unlimited gun rights would return the favor.

"The Colt 1911 is an automatic pistol" OK try not to correct that ;-)

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Semi-autos are critical for hunting some game.

In olden times (70 years or so), when hunting (or just encountering, they are incredibly dangerous) wild boars, the saying was 'shoot once, drop the rifle, climb a tree'. With a semi-auto, you could reasonably put more than one round into the boar, better ensuring not only your safety, but a clean kill, wherein the animal does not needlessly suffer. You might also need a follow-up shot for the boar you DIDN'T see. Hunting is not a one-way street.

Even for a relatively non-threatening deer, a fast follow-up shot may make the difference between a clean kill, and an animal that struggles off for a couple miles, and bleeds out slowly.

Semi-auto is not the enemy. A lot of people, especially military, will assume 'Assault Rifle' means machine-gun, because the term is often inappropriately applied to civilian semi-auto rifles by many different sources. A member of the military would be genuinely puzzled by the need to use an 'assault rifle' on deer, since the cartridge most assault rifles fire, is insufficient, and frankly, illegal in most states, for hunting deer. Plus, full-auto is pointless.

[Buzz cook]

38. While I don't have a problem with semi-autos for hunting

I am a hunter and the preference is for bolt or lever action rifles. That would be by a wide margin.

Most of the hog hunters I know think a pump action shotgun is the way to go. They also tend to recommend lever action rifles, with the old .30-30 being the popular choice. Several hog hunters use dogs to hold the hog and a knife to kill them.

Your one shot and run up a tree dictum might be from the era of muskets. 70 years ago hunters had access to semi-autos, they opted for the Win. 94 or if they could afford one a Win. 70.

[Katya Mullethov]

41. Lots of feral hog hunters here

And they pretty much exclusively use AR's and night vision scopes . In the last five years there has been a move to supressed subsonics like the SOCOM .

[Buzz cook]

42. I'm kind of surprised

Night vision scopes can be put on just about any type of rifle or shotgun. I would expect an AR-10 would be a good EBR choice.

I'm guessing your guys hunt over bait.

[Katya Mullethov]

47. Why would you guess that ? nt

[Buzz cook]

49. Night time hunting nt

.

[spin]

39. Wild boar are still very dangerous...

I watched an excellent video on the Discovery channel called Pig Bomb which dealt with the possibility that Russian boar hand been imported into the United States to increase the size of the wild boar population. Russian boar are even more aggressive and dangerous than the common wild boar.

When hunting a wild boar a semi-auto weapon is a good idea, and also a large caliber handgun. If you do end up a tree, you usually leave your rife behind. If the boar hangs around, you can always shoot him with your handgun.

Note: I am not a hunter, nor do I play one on the internet. However I have known several hunters that ended up in trees when they pissed off a wild hog. After the experience, some carried .44 mag revolvers.

I will include a couple clips from the program Pig Bomb

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/discovery-channel-monster-animals/

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/pig-bomb-sinister-swine.html

[Wallew]

54. Raging against self defense - or what is wrong with people like this

http://www.vcdl.org/new/raging.htm

From a physciatrist...

[NBachers]

4. "Seven people shot to death last night in different parts of the city"

This really happened in my part of the country. It took about an hour and a half.

How do we deal with the fact that any violent criminal shithead can get ahold of a gun and easily blast people to death whenever they want?

How do we deal with the fact that warped, mentally and emotionally crippled kids with no judgement are running around right now looking for a chance to shoot someone with their guns? Child soldiers on the streets of America.

"Two and four year-old girls shot in their beds by bullets flying through the wall as they sleep."

This happened last month.

There are people who shouldn't have guns. They kill and maim. How do we keep guns away from them?

Don't flame me. Don't give me a cut 'n' paste reply. Give me sensible, usable information to help solve this problem.

[iverglas]

5. too bad the recent changes

still don't allow for recommending posts within a thread.

:toast:

... that looks too cheery by half for the subject matter, but it's the best I can think of.

[Tim01]

8. My solution is to send criminals to jail.

There are real solutions that the corporations and the people of this country are not willing to do. I think the fact that one kid will murder another kid for his expensive sneakers pretty much sums up what I mean. But those problems are not going to be fixed.

History and studies have shown us that a small percentage of people do most of the violent crime, it's the same people. As long as they are in the jail, they are not hurting other people. So put them in jail and keep them in jail.

[SteveM]

15. A lot of this kind of crime is concentrated in the "inner city"...

These areas, mostly minority, have for generations been plagued by unemployment, poor family life, bad schools and discrimination. Attention to these problems (through "standard" progressive or "liberal" social policies) has been only somewhat effective, and now cut back severely. Compounding this is the rigid stupidity of the War on Drugs, Inc., and the failing economy. Some efforts to "solve" the problem might include:
1. Concentrate new business/job opportunities in these areas;
2. Vastly improve the schools in these areas
3. End the vastly destructive War on Drugs, Inc. (yet another form of prohibition -- like gun control proposals)
4. Convict, sentence and keep behind bars those convicted of gun crimes (often a sentence-reducing bargaining chip to crims)
5. End firearms prohibition where it exists in these areas so crims don't think they are getting a free ride.

Keep in mind that there is considerable status, "street cred" or "juice" when a thug shoots someone -- anyone, including a child -- and this plays well among a thug's friends -- shows how hard and cold he/she is. I don't know how to deal with the cultural empowerment this kind of social dynamic affords a criminal; it's in the same league as a "Public Enemy" (the movie)-type who is routinely romanticized in American culture.

But like the drugs they sell and the guns they use, you can't prohibit an object and expect to do any good.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. Open up NICS to the public

one way or another, and require the seller establish that a buyer is legally eligible to purchase. That way, private transfers will not place guns in the hands of criminals.

There are privacy concerns around the NICS check that need to be addressed, but this should be a goal. Private transfers that establish the buyer is eligible, and place the burden of proof on the seller.


We could maybe do federal reimbursement to FFL's to handle private transactions, and require all private sales go through a FFL perhaps?

[AtheistCrusader]

27. Another: Registration with iron-clad grandfathering.

I would happily register all of my firearms, if I had solid legal guarantee the weapons could not be post-facto banned and collected. If what I have now would remain forever legal to possess, I would be fine with registration.

Banning new production of weapons for certain criteria is ok, but the chanceg something I spent thousands on, could be banned after the fact, and force me to turn it in for destruction, is unacceptable to me.

[Statistical]

30. I wouldn't trust it.

They would simply pass another law making the one saying your weapons are grandfathered un-grandfathered.

I won't be for registration ever.

[burrfoot]

32. I think

it's already been covered, but I'd be on board with opening up NICS to public use; as well as some hard line sentences for illegal possession of a gun. Like, felon caught with a gun= 5 yrs. Felon commits a crime with a gun= sentence for the crime + 10 yrs, whether he used it or just had it on him. Nobody gives a shit about carrying illegally (I mean the ones who choose to do so don't care about the law) because nothing happens to them when they're caught doing it, by and large. Also, active recovery of weapons legally held if the owner is convicted of a crime that would disqualify him/her.



As a country, we've not been successful in preventing illegal things from coming in. Even if we stopped production, we'd end up with smuggled foreign weapons in the hands of criminals. I think that we have to address it from the user end to make any difference.

Also, there are the broader social reforms- education, public assistance (not welfare), etc.

I know that "we don't need more laws on the books, we need to enforce the ones we already have" is often seen as pro-rkba cliche, but I think it's nonetheless true.


What are your thoughts about the measures that have been suggested (not just in my post)?

[avatar4281]

51. What if there is no solution?

Suppose that whether or not guns are legal, we cannot keep them out of the hands of all criminals. There are arguments that gun control would not reduce illegal gun ownership, and maybe they are correct, maybe not. However, it is fairly certain that some criminals will always have guns, mostly to protect their illegal drug trade. They would procure these weapons in the same manner that they procure illegal drugs, and there is no shortage of supply, internationally or domestically.

I argue that the only real solution is a combination of gun control and decriminalization of drugs. Criminals need guns to protect and obtain illegal drug distribution networks. With decriminalization the price of drugs would be reduced; it would become a taxed and regulated industry. The need for guns would diminish because even criminals must have some sort of risk management thought process, and the gain of drug profits would not exceed the risks of gun crime.

We will not repeal the 2nd amendment in this century, so control is pretty much the only option. Legal guns are hardly enforced, much less tracked or traced. I am a gun owner and had one stolen, and even knew who did it, but the police did nothing. Sure, it was probably already sold, but they did nothing. If I wanted to sell them illegally, I could buy as many as I could put my hands on and just say, "Oops, they were stolen," or sell them at a gun show.

[flamin lib]

6. I don't think of myself as anti-gun but there's a bunch of "law abiding

citizens" I'd just love to grab the guns from. The bozos who shoot traffic signs for instance. I live in the largest metropolitan area in Texas and as soon as you leave one of the major city limits every sign has bullet holes in it. What really chaps me is that less than 1,000 feet behind some of those signs are new home developments.

It's not lies that make me "anti gun" if that's what I am for wanting to grab up a few from time to time, it's gun owners, or at least some of them.

[Tim01]

10. No arguments from me. I would strongly support punishing road shooters.

I think some of it has to do with that whole Texas culture. Shooting signs. Drinking and hunting. Drinking and driving. Getting in fights.
Texans are awfully proud of that whole rowdy cowboy image.
When I went to school in Texas it was common for the boys to talk about spotlighting deer. And if they got caught it would be a slap on the wrist. My dad drove drunk nearly every single evening of the week, he never got arrested, not once.

Where I live now if you are caught poaching deer they can take everything you used, including your vehicle.
I came home from a party recently on an average saturday night and police had the entire highway blocked off. Every driver on the road got checked for alcohol.

I live in an area where there is a real gun culture. Some of the best shooters in the country are my neighbors. I know people who shoot 20,000 rounds a year, one precise shot at 1000 yards at at time. I shoot some advanced shoot and move pistol stuff and we will go through 600 rounds per day each.
It is very rare to see a shot up sign around here, being a shithead with a gun is not in our culture.

[Caliman73]

22. Those people are not law abiding, responsible, or respectful of life.

I own firearms and would never think to shoot up public property or discharge my firearms in an unsafe manner. The kind of people who think it is okay to discharge their firearms for vandalism and with disregard for others are criminals.

[Taitertots]

9. The same old lies

Assault weapons are not machine guns.

Almost no one in America has AK-47s.

Assault weapons are Superior for hunting

90% of Mexican guns came from America

[Tim01]

11. You have truths and lies in the same post. Did you mistype? nt

[Taitertots]

12. That wasn't as clear as I had hoped

Edit: No posting before coffee anymore.

[Tim01]

13. I can relate. nt

[Deadric Damodred]

14. How about the disgusting lie that they only...

...want to ban "assault weapons"? That's all, just "assault weapons"...doesn't sound too much to ask if you are uneducated. Problem is, they are now trying to inlcude as many firearms as possible to fit under the term....semi-automatic rifles, handguns, even some bolt-action rifles. So that's the lie since they are going out of their way to proclaim damn near all guns are "assault weapons".

[chibajoe]

16. Gun control reduces crime

Kinda like how the crime rate in Washington DC and Chicago are so low because of the success of the gun control laws there.

[JonQ]

17. The 2nd amendment is about hunting

or confers the collective right for the state to arm a militia.

Banning guns will prevent criminals from having them.

It is unlikely if not impossible to use a gun successful in self defense, most likely the criminal will take it away from you effortlessly and use it against you.

They will stop with banning only "assault weapons".

Assault weapons are more dangerous than other firearms.

Actually pretty much anything they use in defense of the AWB tends to be a distortion if not an outright lie.

Concealed carry will lead to epic increases in gun violence.


Not quite a lie, but sneaky and misleading is the practice of including suicides and self-defense in the gun-related deaths stats. Actually they use a lot of bad statistics.

[Deadric Damodred]

18. Owning "assualt weapons" is the equivalent to owning nukes.

Anytime they ask "so you should own nukes as well", that really means "we think that you owning an assault weapon is the equivalent to you owning a nuke". And you know, KNOW, they just like attaching the "so you want to own nukes" statement to any weapon they don't like. If they had all guns but double-barrel shotguns banned, then they would start saying "oh you want a double-barrel shotgun, so should you have nukes as well?" I'm sure that right now there is some grabber in the UK that is saying right now "oh so you want a pointed kitchen knife, should you have nukes as well?"

[michreject]

19. A gun in the home make homicide 2.7 times more likely.

Th Kellerman study has been rebuked as a simple lie.

[spin]

20. Thousands of children die annually in gun accidents...

False. Gun accidents involving children are actually at record lows, although you wouldn't know it from listening to the mainstream media. In 1997, the last year for which data are available, only 142 children under 15 years of age died in gun accidents, and the total number of gun-related deaths for this age group was 642. More children die each year in accidents involving bikes, space heaters or drownings. The often repeated claim that 12 children per day die from gun violence includes "children" up to 20 years of age, the great majority of whom are young adult males who die in gang-related violence.
http://rockoutwithmyglockout.blogspot.com/2008/02/gun-control-lies.html

[TPaine7]

26. "Mere" rape is not a serious threat to women and therefore

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x231574">"mere" rape does not justify potentially lethal defensive force.

[eqfan592]

29. Wow...

...that thread really disturbed me. I don't want to start up the same conversation here and get this thread locked, but if you look at the replies, it won't be hard to figure out what disturbed me about it...

[TPaine7]

33. Anything for gun control. Anything.

When "feminists" throw women under the bus, you know you're seeing the "gun control reality distortion field" in action.

[eqfan592]

31. Here's one I just heard about recently, from here I think..

..that the incendiary rounds that can be shot by some rifles are "heat seeking" rounds. And there's the classic "barrel shroud - shoulder thing that goes up" incident.

I guess the myth I'm addressing is the myth that anti-gun spokespersons know a lot about firearms, their uses, etc. They are shocking ignorant about the things they wish to ban.

[X_Digger]

34. 'cop killer bullets'..

.. hard metal core (armor piercing) have been civilian restricted since the 90's for handguns, and up to .308, if I recall correctly. Of course, any hunting gun bigger than a 22 will pierce the body armor worn by cops, as it's _designed_ to stop handgun rounds (the most likely round cops are getting hit with.)

[Tim01]

35. Oh, that is a good one. LIke the Black Talon. nt

[spin]

36. Plastic guns...

The hysteria over "plastic guns" arose in the mid-1980s when the Austrian company Glock began exporting pistols to the United States. They were labeled "terrorist specials" by the press, and fear spread that their plastic frame and grip would make them invisible to metal detectors. Nobody mentioned that there was over one pound of metal in them. Try going through an airport detector with that. In fact, no working guns have ever been produced without at least some metal and nobody has even shown that such guns can be made.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/lott/lott21.html

Strange that this feared "terrorist special" became the most popular police weapon in the United States.

The Glock 22: America's best-selling police pistol

There are more reasons than low bid why this 16-shot .40 leads in US police handgun sales. More police departments seem to have adopted the Glock 22 than any other make and model. For years, the FBI has given new agents their choice of a 16-shot G22 or the slightly smaller 14-shot Glock 23.

From the frozen wasteland patrolled by the Alaska State Troopers to the 120-degree streets covered by Phoenix PD, the Glock 22 is standard issue along with numerous other state police agencies and countless sheriff's departments.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_54/ai_n25469319/

[beevul]

37. The biggest lie of them all "We're not a gun ban organization. We don't push for gun bans."

"Paul Helmke:...We're not a gun ban organization. We don't push for gun bans."

Posted July 3, 2008 - Just over a year ago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-helmke/nra-gun-licensing-and-reg_b_110778.html


And yet, here we have "Captain Tupolev" (the esteemed mr helmke) saying something quite to the contrary:


Helmke favors a middle ground. He would limit how many guns people can buy at one time, ban sales of semiautomatic rifles and increase law oversight of gun sales."


http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090511/NEWS/905110327


Thats it right there - The biggest whopper of them all:

"We're not a gun ban organization. We don't push for gun bans."

I assume I wont be needing to list the ways in which that is a complete lie...

They did after all support the DC gun ban.

[Katya Mullethov]

48. 85% of 17%of the confiscated Mexcian Narco guns are from the US

More bullshit numbers . Meant to impress .

[jody]

50. IMO nearly all anti-gun propaganda are either lies or half-truths. Whether they are "big" ones is

debatable. :shrug:

[DissedByBush]

52. "Armor-piercing pistols"

"Assault rifle" to describe a semi-automatic civilian rifle.

"High-powered" to describe assault rifles and their civilian derivatives, which by definition fire an intermediate round, not high-powered.

"Assault weapon" in any use as a vague, scary term to describe civilian rifles. It has no civilian meaning other than what gun banners have invented.

Calling any civilian rifle that uses the AK-47 action an AK-47.

Using the term "armor piercing" to scare us when most hunting rifles can pierce body armor.

Saying Teflon makes a bullet armor piercing.

Stories of the arms moving from US retail stores into Mexico and then describing machine guns, grenade launchers, armor-piercing pistol ammunition and other things that are not available for retail sale in the US.