Sports bar owner to hand out water pistols in protest of TN law allowing guns in bars

[guruoo]

Water pistols to be handed out at sports bar

By Associated Press

Originally published 10:03 a.m., July 14, 2009
Updated 10:03 a.m., July 14, 2009

JOHNSON CITY, Tenn. - Patrons headed to a Johnson City sports bar will be handed water pistols on
the first day when state law allows guns in bars.

Dan Numan said the gimmick is a facetious protest of the new statute, which he called "ignorant."

The first 100 people who visit Numan's Cafe and Sports Bar today will be offered the water pistols.
A massive water gun fight was anticipated.

Numan said he and several other restaurant owners in the city intend to post signs, as allowed by
the legislation, that lets them opt out of permitting real handguns in their establishments.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/jul/14/water-pistols-be-handed-out-sports-bar/?print=1

On edit:
The Tennessee Firearms Association, a “grass-roots” gun advocacy group, declared the override a major victory
in a blast e-mail to its members but said, “We have other issues on the horizon such as parks, long arms, school
grounds,” and others — references to legalizing guns in parks and school grounds and loaded rifles and shotguns
in private vehicles, all for gun-carry licensees.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/jun/04/guns--restaurants-bill-goes-effect-july-14-after-s/

[slackmaster]

1. As the owner of the bar, he does have the right to refuse to allow concealed weapons in his business

If that makes him happy.

[cslinger59]

50. Pretty funny and creative and I am on the other side of the issue.

The reality is all he has to do is post a sign. No drama etc. but I love the idea/creativity of the protest.

Actually the reality is even with a posted sign the same number of people will carry into his establishment as before with the same results. Without the sign he might see a slight uptick in folks carrying legally but those folks have proven time and time again that they are more statistically likely to be law abiding then the general population so again he won't know and there will be no additional incidents.

Still, I like the way this dude thinks. :D

[michreject]

51. Bar owners don't want to do that

They want the state to do it. Then they can say the ban isn't their fault. They can remain blmeless.

[cslinger59]

53. I think you are correct in this.

By placing a big sign that says we don't want carry holders while armed pretty much will drive more folks away then before if for no other reason then out of spite. It may even drive boycotts etc.

Before there were folks who would and folks who wouldn't carry whether with or without a permit(not advocating this) and life went on. There was no ire to be had towards an individual business.

Now it forces certain establishments to choose a side so to speak and accept both the pros and cons of said decision.

At the end of the day August will roll around and everything will be pretty much business as usual. Maybe a few more folks will carry legally into restaurants but that's about it.

[Abq_Sarah]

59. They don't want to be put into a position of advertising

That they are a gun free zone.

[Mike Daniels]

2. Honestly, what bar owner wants a bunch of guns in their establishment?

I understand the law says you can't drink if you're carrying. So....?

Are the bars going to have doormen that ask if you're carrying? If you answer yes do you get a stamp on your hand so that bartenders know not to serve you? If you are carrying are you really going to admit it because why are you going to a bar if it's not to imbibe at least one drink?

Was there really a demand from bar owners to allow people who carry concealed weapons into their establishments or is this just the government ramming it down the owners' throats as a sop to the gun industry?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

3. The owner has the right to post a "no guns allowed sign"

And then gun owners can't carry firearms on the premises. The law is to allow people to carry in restaurants that SERVE alcohol. Most places that serve alcohol are NOT bars. Further more, there are quite a few people that visit bars and do not drink.

Laws like this have been passed in MANY states in the past without any fuss or repercussion. For people that like to CCW a weapon, this make life much more convenient... not having to arm/disarm (handle your gun) anywhere that has a wine/beer list on the menu. Just leave it where it is and enjoy your lunch. It all boils down to freedom and choice (both good things).

The real question you should be asking is, "What's stops people from carrying concealed weapons in bars currently?"
Criminals will do what they please. Law abiding citizens are not the concern here.

[guruoo]

4. Next, they want to extend gun carry to school grounds...

See my updated OP

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

8. That seems like a debate for another thread.

When they say schools, I think there needs to be subdivision of "schools".
Colleges, high school, and elementary.

Colleges: I am supporter of SCCC and many of their stances
High School: I think that licensed adults & teachers should be allowed to attend scholastic functions and be on school grounds to attend to school related business (PTA meetings, conferences, dropping kids off, etc).
Elementary: I think that only teachers should be allowed to carry on school grounds. Licensed adults only at approved extracurricular functions and transporting their kids.

I'm a firm believer that MANY if not most of the deaths involved in school shooting could have been mitigated if a CCW were present.

[tnlefty]

12. It was to go before the Gen. Assembly a few years ago when mine

were still in elementary school and even the repup Moms were banding together with us to express their outrage, and it didn't go up for a vote. Perhaps we parents should tell them to cram their truancy policy and keep our kids out of school and protest.

The people that I know who are employed in state parks are pissed about that bill being signed into law, and 2 members of the Chatt. City Council are pushing for an exemption for city parks. I wish them luck, maybe it'll push some momentum out into the county.

[SteveM]

55. "gun carry in school grounds" already occurs. Haven't you noticed? (nt)

[Hippo_Tron]

5. Laws banning guns in bars aren't about a crazy guy coming in and shooting up the place

This is a situation where the idea is to in fact deter non-crazy people from carrying a concealed weapon into a bar. Bars tend to have bar fights and if there is a gun in the room the fight could escalate and somebody could do something stupid.

[guruoo]

6. It would likely turn into a question of who's the bad guys, and who's shooting at whom?...

And who would the cops shoot when they got there?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. I often see this concern

about cop/ccw confusion and mistaken targets, but have really never seen this happen. Quite the opposite infact - where the CCW people have the cops/911 on the phone and are giving them intimate deatails about the crime scene unfolding thus helping the police stategize very informed responses.

Are you aware of any such incidents where an officer shot someone with a firearm mistaken for the bad guy?

[guruoo]

10. The TN guns in bars law just went into effect today.

[X_Digger]

15. True, but there is history in other states..

33-36 other states allow concealed carrying where alcohol is being served (the fuzziness is because different states have slightly different standards.) Stats from TX and FL (the two I'm familiar with because they report separately on crimes levied against CCW holders) show that CCW holders don't have a problem refraining from drinking while carrying now, and have an overall crime rate lower even than cops.

[guruoo]

23. The issue is still young. Time will tell.

[X_Digger]

24. Washington state would be one to check..

.. they've had CCW since 1961 and Florida has had it since 1987.

[guruoo]

26. They've allowed guns in bars since 1961?

[X_Digger]

29. WA has.. (just never restricted, not specifically allowed like TN)

Florida states it as- "any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;" (ie, stay out of the 'bar' portion of a restaurant, etc.)

[guruoo]

34. Interesting. We'll see how things go as it's expanded throughout the country.

[X_Digger]

36. If the map at opencarry.org is correct..

.. there are only 9 states left that prohibit restaurant carry (again, variations in 'restaurant vs bar' make it hard to be specific..

http://opencarry.org/restaurant.html

[SteveM]

56. I believe alcohol sales of 51% in Texas = bar/tavern...

Short of that number, the establishment is considered a non-bar/tavern; typically, a restaurant. As such, there is no law prohibiting licensed CCW in those establishments. But, as has been mentioned, the owner of any establishment can post a sign barring the carrying of weapons.

[paulsby]

47. WA prohibits carry in liquor establishments

iow bars. in restaurants that have a seperate bar area, they are allowed, but the bar must be delineated from the restaurant area, and they will have signs at the entrance. i've lived in WA a long time, and i'm a cop here. i'm aware of the law. the only people who can carry in bars are cops (off or on duty). it's a misdemeanor to violate this law.

[X_Digger]

48. yah, sorry, meant restaurants, not bars..

So confusing from state to state. TX has the 51% rule, which is also confusing.

[Euromutt]

70. Not in bars, no....

Carrying a firearm is prohibited in any premises declared by the Washington state Liquor Control Board to be off-limits to persons under 21; i.e. bars, "lounges" and bar areas of restaurants. But it's perfectly legal to carry in an establishment that serves alcohol but is not designated a bar.

It's actually not even illegal to drink while carrying, though if you're caught legally under the influence (BAC of over 0.08%) while in possession of a firearm in public, you're in a world of hurt.

[paulsby]

46. yes, but

usually it's a cop shooting an OFF duty cop with a firearm. this happened in east providence iirc not too long ago. the primary difference is that cops are use to having their guns out around other cops and don't (if not properly trained) distinguish "off duty mode" where the cop is going to have no idea that you are an armed cop. iow off duty cops just reflexively respond in "cop mode" and forget that the responding cops are going to see "guy with a gun" not off duty cop. i've responded to countless incidents with CCW holders. in the few instances where they had had their gun drawn at some point in the incident, they holstered it at or before my arrival. i've never seen it to be an issue.

[guruoo]

60. What happens if the cops arrive in the middle of a firefight where both CCW and non CCW

holders (presumably all bad guys) are involved?

[eqfan592]

61. This is a question born of the movies...

...in reality, "firefights" do NOT last long, and if one were to last long enough to actually allow for the police to arrive, the likelihood of them having no ability to ID who was in the act of committing the crime or of the CCW holder being able to ID himself/herself to them is very slim.

In either case, this is not a good argument against CCW.

[guruoo]

64. I'm not against CCW.

Becoming obvious that we're not going to get anywhere here, so
we'll just save it for another day.

:hi:

[eqfan592]

65. I didn't think my post was all that aggressive toward you or anything...

...but if you say so!

:patriot:

[paulsby]

62. sorry if this sounds vague, but...

it depends. i've been a cop 20 yrs. i have seen all sorts of shootings, including self-defense shootings. i have never heard of an incident where a CCW'er was defending himself from some criminal, and shot by the police. i ma not saying it never happens, i am just saying it's not much of a concern statistically. the #1 rule is if a cop arrives and says "drop it", you drop it, whether you are the bad guy or the good guy. but it's not a perfect world. yes, any time you draw a gun, you risk other people (cops or civilians) thinking you are the bad guy/a threat.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. CCW Permit Holder Stops Mass Murder In Progress (In a bar)

Three Men Killed in Winnemucca Shooting on Sunday

Deputies with the Humboldt County Sheriff's Office are investigating a shooting in Winnemucca early Sunday morning that left three people dead and others injured.

The shooting happened at the Player's Bar & Grill on South Grass Valley Road.

Investigators say a feud between two local families is behind the early-morning shooting inside the bar. Three men from Winnemucca died from gunshot wounds, and two others are in critical condition at the hospital.

Deputies say about 2:25 a.m., 30-year-old Ernesto Villa Gomez walked into the bar and starting shooting. 20-year-old Jose Torres and his 19-year-old brother Margarito Torres were killed. When Villa Gomez was reloading his semi-automatic gun, a man from Reno took out a gun and shot Villa Gomez. That man has a concealed weapons permit.


http://www.ktvn.com/Global/story.asp?S=8378732

Everyone seemed to figure it out when it counted.

David

[guruoo]

22. Now imagine a crowded bar w/3, 4, 5, CCW's that don't know each other being added to the mix

Alcohol and guns don't mix. IMO, it's just a matter of time

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

43. Of course that hasn't happened despite 41 states having similar laws. The sky won't fall.

[AlinPA]

67. Let's wait until football season gets underway.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. People with carry licenses learn about

the legalities and warrants of deadly force in thier training classes. They know that they are not allowed to consume alcohol and that use of thier weapon would be no different outside the bar than inside it.
Why should one citizen's rights (to bear arms) be infringed upon because another person decides to get drunk and beligerent. Surely you're not suggesting the guy that is not drinking is the problem here?
To the best of my knowledge, there are laws against drinking while carrying a firearm and public intoxication. Both of these laws provide necessary tools for avoiding the situations so many are giving a knee-jerk reation to.

A bar fight is no different than a fights outside of bars. The duties to retreat and warrent of lethal force are the same.
Why restrict the rights of a law abiding citizen when they are not the problem?

If someone is attacked with a broken bottle, pool cue, pocket knife, etc... they should be allowed to use the force authorized by law to defend themselves... whether the attacker is drunk or not.
Being drunk is not an affirmative defense to actions committed in any situations.

[guruoo]

11. I hope you're right, and your trust in expanded carry laws is not in vain

[walldude]

17. All your arguments hang on the fact that people who have a

license to carry a firearm are going to be responsible about it. Funny, my experience with gun owners must have been quite different then yours. I know many people who love to do nothing more then go buy a couple cases of beer and some ammo and go out and give their guns a workout. Your comments make it sound like all gun owners are totally responsible people and I shouldn't worry about them. Funny, the reality I see doesn't match the one you present as fact.

[Tan Gent]

18. There is a big difference between plinking out in the boondocks and

carrying a concealed firearm in populated places. Also there is no training required for the former. But those facts aren't of much interest to people with an anticonstitutional agenda.

[guruoo]

25. "anticonstitutional agenda"? n/t

[eqfan592]

32. Yes, "antioconstitutional agenda." Glad you got that figured out. (nt)

[guruoo]

38. Enjoy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IzNPEGWNos

[eqfan592]

41. Hmmm

...while I did laugh my arse off at the video, I fail to see the relevance to our current conversation.

[X_Digger]

20. "most gun owners" != CCW licensees n/t

[eqfan592]

31. And you're trying to make it seem that...

...all gun owners are drunken idiots.

Nobody is saying that all gun owners are 100% A OK. There is NO group that you can point too that doesn't have some number of total idiots in it. Take driving for instance. I know several people that drive drunk regularly. Is this representative of the entire population of drivers? Of course it's not, and it imply such is disingenuous at best.

Nobody suggests we ban cars at bars because somebody will be drinking. We have laws in place that state if you are going to drive, then you can't get drunk. CCW laws have the same rules in place. I really don't see the difference here.

[X_Digger]

33. wrong place. n/t

[eqfan592]

35. How so? (nt)

[X_Digger]

37. Sorry, I replied in the wrong place :) n/t

[eqfan592]

40. lol, no worries :D (nt)

[TheWraith]

42. Licensed concealed-carry users have a lower rate of violent crime than do police.

The license restrictions tend to weed out people who are not going to be responsible with their weapon, or don't know the proper way to behave.

[pipoman]

21. Do you think that a law prohibiting

carry of guns...anyplace, will stop someone who intends to shoot someone? These laws are enacted as much to allow people who are licensed to carry a gun an option other than leaving their gun in their unattended vehicle as anything. The bar owner can put the sign up if he wishes, I hope he considers that the sign will mean different things to different people depending on the person's motive. Some 43 states already have a similar law on the books with literally millions of CCW holders, yet no (or damned few) problems at all.

[dysfunctional press]

13. in a litigous society like ours, isn't he asking for trouble?

i would assume that there's some kind of crime involved with shooting someone with a squirt gun, even if it's just simple assault.

as long as they don't put someone's eye out with those things.

[tnlefty]

14. A creative way to push back!

Cool.

[Statistical]

16. The law allows any business (not just a bar or restaurant) to post a sign to prohibit firearms.

Don't want a gun on your property. Post the sign.

[Redneck Socialist]

27. I don't know what he's worried about

His fears are misguided, but it is certainly his prerogative to not allow CCW on his property.

:shrug:

Much ado about nothing.

[X_Digger]

30. It's Johnson City..

ETSU brings in some strange politics to Johnson City (I lived there for four years).

[Chota]

54. When I was there in the early 80's

It was still a fairly decent place to live, now no so much.

[SteveM]

57. Steve Spurrier is from Johnson City (nt)

[Chota]

63. That's certainly nothing to brag about...

........

[benEzra]

28. And still the MSM repeats the "this is all about bars" meme...

and people accept it without question...

[Katya Mullethov]

39. If he is smart he will prefill and put them on ice

If that is the way the political wind is blowing in his neck of the woods "All Wet Guevara Tee Shirt Night " could create the buzz with all the little rebels . The bill no doubt generated a spat of alarmingly informative news stories ,thus setting the stage for just such a promotion .

Mr manboobs managers comments aside , as long as there are plenty of real boobs , he'll make out fine .

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

44. Good stunt to get some free adverts for a failing business.

[proteus_lives]

45. He has options.

If he doesn't want guns in his place, he can install metal detectors.

[Tim01]

49. All this whining when he could just put up a sign? That's stupid.nt

[aikoaiko]

52. What is a drunken water gunner puts vodka in the gun and squirts it into someone's eye?

Oh, no!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

58. I wish Ohio would allow me to carry a gun in restaraunts that serve alcohol.

Chipotle is my favorite place to eat and it's a pain having to handle to my gun everytime I want to eat there. Seem slike uneccessary risk in my opinion. Plus, most fine restaraunts and family places have beer on the menu too. I'm pretty much restricted to fast food, amish diners, and drive through. I'm mostly worried about somebody seeing my disarm and then break into my car to steal it.

But make no mistake, monster-burritos are worth the hassle :)
(Veggie buritto: rice, black beans, onions/peppers, tomatos, hot salsa, sour cream, cheese, and guacamole.)

[JonQ]

66. Couldn't he just put up a sign?

Saying: I want the only people carrying firearms in my bar to do so illegally.

[423aaron]

68. Just over a week...

http://timesnews.net/article.php?id=9015461

I just found it interesting that just 8 days after the owner of this bar made a spectacle of him self this happens in his place.

No, I do not think that this incident would have turned out necessarily better if the victim or the victims
GF were carrying.

It does demonstrate that idiots are in bars with weapons regardless of the signage on the door.

The only people who pay any attention to the sign on the door are people who would not be a problem anyway.

Let the poo flinging begin again...

Aaron

[eqfan592]

69. I don't think any poo flinging is necessary here.

I think you are correct that in this very particular case, the victim carrying may not have really helped much as he was attacked from behind while already engaged in a fist fight.

And you are correct that this incident underscores the fact that only people interested in obeying the rules will actually do so.

Though I have to ask if the sign on the bar says "no guns" or "no weapons/no ccw." There may not be a legal difference, but there could be a practical one.

I also get a kick out of the commenter on the page that seems to think getting stabbed is a step up from getting shot. My guess is that she's experienced neither.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

71. He'll be out of business by next year.