"‘Cookie bandit' a B.C. cold case killer" - story ends in New Mexico

[iverglas]

The RCMP cpl interviewed on CBC this morning described the still-active warrant, typed many years ago.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/cookie-bandit-a-bc-cold-case-killer/article1225298/

One of Canada's most wanted criminals, an American draft dodger who eluded police for over three decades after murdering a young couple in British Columbia, is dead after killing a police officer in a shootout in a New Mexico cabin.

New Mexico State Police have identified a petty thief dubbed the “Cookie Bandit” as Joseph Henry Burgess, wanted for the brutal slaying of Leif Carlsson, 21, and Ann Durrant, 20, on a Vancouver Island beach in 1972.

... In June of 1972, Mr. Carlsson and Ms. Durrant, a University of British Columbia student, were found shot to death in their sleeping bags on a beach in Pacific Rim National Park near Tofino, B.C.

... Cpl. Lagan said the RCMP has been investigating the case continuously since 1972 and that it was reassigned to a new officer just last week. He said that Mr. Burgess had been featured on websites operated by the RCMP, U.S. authorities, as well as the television show America's Most Wanted .

... “I feel relieved,” Mr. Creally said. “But I think it's very unfortunate that a law enforcement officer had to die for him to be identified. That's a sad, sad way for an ending.”

http://www.officer.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=2&id=47594

"I'm going to catch that guy."

That was the last thing Sgt. Joe Harris told a secretary at the Sandoval County Sheriff's Office before setting out to bust a burglar known as the "Cookie Bandit," who had eluded police in the Jemez Mountains for close to a decade.

... Harris and his partner were on a stakeout when they caught the man breaking into a cabin in the early morning hours of Thursday. State Police said that the man had never been confronted by officers and that Harris and his partner, Deputy Theresa Moriarty, tried to take him into custody.

The man had a handgun, and shots were exchanged.

http://www.koat.com/news/20124240/detail.html

Widow Speaks Out About Cookie Bandit

Burgess was wanted for a double murder in Canada 37 years ago. Police are investigating whether he killed more people in the U.S. before he started burglarizing cabins in the Jemez Mountains for 8 years.

... Tonia Harris plans on contacting the families of the victims Burgess killed.

"I want to have contact with the victims families that he murdered so that they can see that my husband advenged their deaths."

Basically, I just think it's an interesting story, and it does involve guns, so here it is.

I'm going to keep an eye on it, because I'm curious about Burgess, and how he came to be in Canada.

Of course I'm curious about his handgun, too.

[dixiegrrrrl]

1. I remember hearing about the murders in '72. People were shocked.

appreciate you finding the rest of the story.

[MADem]

2. He came to be in Canada because he was dodging the draft.

I also think it's unfortunate that a law enforcement officer had to die to get that bastard, but I can't say his passing brings a tear to my eye. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[iverglas]

3. yes I know ...

-- actually, at the time, we called them draft resisters. ;)

I'm just curious whether he was formally accepted for residence here, and how long he was here, what he did, etc.

The bits of articles I didn't reproduce indicate that while he was in Canada he was a religious fanatic of some sort.

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Tofino+sleeping+double+murder+suspect+killed+Mexico+shootout/1812452/story.html

Burgess, a transient draft dodger from New Jersey, had been known as a religious zealot who didn't like the fact Durrant and Carlsson were living together in a beach commune as an unwed couple.

(The Vancouver Sun refers to them as a "hippie couple", of course.)

Also:

Crime experts speculate Burgess may be responsible for later killings in Washington and California that appear to have similar characteristics.

... RCMP Cpl. Darren Lagan told The Province investigators with RCMP's Vancouver Island Integrated Major Crime Unit will now work with authorities in New Mexico in an effort to close the Tofino double-murder case. Lagan said he could not speak on the possibility Burgess is responsible for other murders in the United States, but said RCMP will assist in any U.S. police investigations.

"Absolutely, we'll do whatever we can in sharing information about the history of and giving access to <his> fingerprints," Lagan said.

[spin]

23. I thought about heading to Canada when I found out I was up for the draft...

during the Vietnam war.

(My mother had a friend on the draft board who told her my name was on the list for the next month.)

I joined the Air Force. Never did I have to go to Nam. I served my time in Texas, Mississippi and Massachusetts (Cape Cod). I had a lot of fun and did a lot of fishing. The only drawback is that I can't tel my grandchildren any exciting combat stories.

Oh well.

[iverglas]

25. well, there's a bonus

The only drawback is that I can't tel my grandchildren any exciting combat stories.

You don't have to tell them about napalming children, bayonnetting families, bombing villages and destroying the environment of a nation.

I'd have thought that might compensate.

[spin]

26. Damn right it's a bonus...

I've know a lot of Vietnam vets and also soldiers from Korea and WWII

Those who actually were in combat are very reluctant to talk about it. If you could have a few drinks together, they might loosen up and tell you about their experiences. Often the conversation isn't pretty.

The Vietnam combat vets I've talked to never described autocracies. I'm sure some did, however the majority just didn't want to be in Vietnam fighting an useless war.

I remember taking to one Vietnam vet who remembered entering a village with his best childhood friend by his side. They had enlisted and went through basic training together and were sent to Nam. They were green troops, unfamiliar with combat. A woman was approaching them. She suddenly shot my friend's companion with a hidden AK-47. She ran and my friend's companion died.

This is merely one story I heard. Most of the stories were bullshit from those who wanted to portray themselves as heroes.

None talked about committing war crimes, despite of how much they had had to drink. I really don't believe that those I knew who had served in Vietnam ever were responsible for atrocities. That doesn't mean that some soldiers didn't exceed the limit.

But I'm glad I don't have to live with the memory of combat in Vietnam. All to often it's a nightmare.

[iverglas]

4. and in different but also interesting news

James Kopp, ultimately exradited from France after years as a fugitive, and tried and convicted of the 1998 murder of Dr. Bernard Slepian in NY state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Charles_Kopp

was also wanted for the attempted murder of a doctor in Ontario. We were ready to take him any time NY state was tired of him. ;)

http://www.thestar.com/article/640988

James Kopp, serving a life sentence for killing a U.S. doctor who performed abortions, will not face charges in the attempted murder of an Ancaster physician, the OPP say.

"Following consultation with the Hamilton Crown Attorney's office on the evidence relating to the attempted murder of Dr. Hugh Short, the Ontario Provincial Police and Hamilton Police Service joint investigation team has decided not to proceed with charges at this time," according to a press release.

... The OPP press release gave no specific reason for the decision not to pursue charges.

But it suggests that Kopp remains "an accused person and a person of interest" in other non-fatal shootings. Those include abortion doctors Garson Romalis of Vancouver and Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, both shot in their homes in 1997, as well as a Rochester, N.Y., doctor also shot that autumn.

... U.S. prosecutor Kathleen Mehltretter, acting U.S. attorney for the federal Justice Department Western District New York, told the Star last night: "He's (Kopp) currently serving a life sentence here and that means life. There's no parole. There's no release."

I don't know the reason, but I suspect it simply has to do with prosecutorial discretion in a case where there is no chance of conviction. When the person is never going to be in the jurisdiction, there's not much hope.

Kopp got his rifle (rifle??) at a pawn shop.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93645&page=1

According to the affidavit unsealed Monday, James Kopp, used the name B. James Milton on a fake Virginia driver's license to buy a Russian SKS rifle from the A-Z Pawn Shop in Nashville, Tenn. on June 16, 1997. Kopp was arrested in France last week after a two-and-a-half year manhunt in the slaying of abortion provider Dr. Barnett Slepian.

Patricia Osborne, the owner of the pawn shop, told The Associated Press the FBI contacted her in 1998 about a sale.

"I barely remember the transaction, could never have identified his face," Osborne said. "I only know what the FBI told me."

... The allegation of Kopp's fake ID comes two weeks after the General Accounting Office released a report that found undercover federal agents were able to use fake identification to purchase guns. The report — and the revelation in Kopp's case — points out apparent weaknesses in the National Instant Criminal Background Checks System (NICS), which gun dealers are required to consult before completing every gun sale.

The system checks the name of the purchaser against an FBI database of the names of people legally prohibited from owning firearms — such as convicted felons, illegal aliens, and people dishonorably discharged from the military. But NICS is unable to verify the name provided by the buyer is actually his.

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. points out apparent weaknesses in the National Instant Criminal Background Checks System

I have always maintained that no check that self-identifies as 'instant' can ever be comprehensive.

There is NO reason in the world that there cannot be a 30 day waiting period, during which time all the given information can be verified. Works also as a 'cool down' period, too.

[gorfle]

6. There's also no reason.

points out apparent weaknesses in the National Instant Criminal Background Checks System

I have always maintained that no check that self-identifies as 'instant' can ever be comprehensive.

There is NO reason in the world that there cannot be a 30 day waiting period, during which time all the given information can be verified. Works also as a 'cool down' period, too.

If the background-check system has accurate data, there's no reason why the system can't do it's check in seconds, which is exactly what it does today. If the system doesn't have accurate data, fix the system - don't penalize firearm purchasers.

If the guy was a convicted felon, he would have bounced a NICS check when he tried to buy a gun through an FFL. Odds are it was stolen or purchased from a private individual, which requires no background check.

[iverglas]

8. excuse me, but can you explain

If the guy was a convicted felon, he would have bounced a NICS check when he tried to buy a gun through an FFL. Odds are it was stolen or purchased from a private individual, which requires no background check.

Well, first of all, I guess, whether you read the information you are purporting to talk about.

Kopp purchased his rifle from a pawn shop, and a NICS check was done. What guy are you talking about?

Next: how exactly does an instant NICS check weed out people using fake ID?

A delay, such as a 30-day wait, or such as the processing of a licence application in Canada, allows the information submitted to be checked.

[gorfle]

10. OK, so I was wrong.

Kopp purchased his rifle from a pawn shop, and a NICS check was done. What guy are you talking about?

I did not see this information in what you quoted. So I was wrong. How did he pass the NICS check if he was a convicted felon? Is it because he had not been convicted of any disqualifying crimes in the United States?

Next: how exactly does an instant NICS check weed out people using fake ID?

It doesn't. Did Kopp use a fake ID to pass NICS?

A delay, such as a 30-day wait, or such as the processing of a licence application in Canada, allows the information submitted to be checked.

If you make sure the data in the database is accurate to begin with, there's no need for a bureaucratic hold-up. If there's a big problem with people using fake IDs to buy firearms from FFL dealers (which I doubt - why not just buy one through the local newspaper and get a cheaper price AND avoid the paperwork hassle?), make IDs harder to counterfeit.

[AtheistCrusader]

30. Cripes...

YES HE USED A FAKE ID.

What is unanswered by the article is, was the fake ID completely fake, or did it correspond to a real person's ID. Would NICS catch a completely fake ID with no valid SOC, no valid Drivers License, etc? I'm betting 'yes', but do not know.

[iverglas]

32. how would it do that, please?

Would NICS catch a completely fake ID with no valid SOC, no valid Drivers License, etc? I'm betting 'yes', but do not know.

As I understand it, NICS contains *only* information about individuals who are in some way ineligible, by law, to possess firearms: criminal conviction, involuntary commitment for mental illness, things having to do with familial violence orders, and the like.

I would think that ID that, on its face, identified someone as a resident of the state in question, of the requisite age, and whatever else is required,* would simply result in a no-ineligibility result.

* - edit - e.g. a fake driver's licence; I don't know what other kind of ID is usable, and I don't know what an SOC is. ;)

[AtheistCrusader]

34. SOC is a Social Security Number.

A required piece of information on the BATFE form 4473, which is the basis for the NICS request.

If the SOC does not match the name, I would expect a 'delayed' response, wherein the NICS phone handler will pass the call off to an FBI agent who will perform an actual background check. There are many criteria that will cause a delayed flag, one of which may be sharing a name with someone who has comitted a crime. The SOC and birthdate are two pieces of information that are used to cross-reference which name belongs to which crime.

I would be very surprised if entering 'Joe Bob' soc '1234567890' didn't raise hell. But if you entered a real name, with a real corresponding SOC, I expect you might get away with it.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Depending on how fake it is...

"Next: how exactly does an instant NICS check weed out people using fake ID?"

I expect NICS might return 'no such person'. Which would be a red flag of it's own. But if the fake ID was a stolen identity of a real person, AND that person happened to have no disqualification that would appear in NICS, then he would get a good-to-go response.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Fake ID.

Instant check reveals nothing. A REAL check, during a waiting period, might have revealed that the name on the fake ID had not lived at that address for years. Or that name belonged to a dead person.

All the instant check shows is that that name is NOT in police databases as a felon, thus ineligible. No verification that that person even really exists.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. Do we know that?

I don't know the internal workings of the NICS sysem. I would EXPECT that it correlates Drivers License Number and SOC to a real name, but of course, if the fake ID is using a real person's SOC/DL, then yeah, as long as the real person behind it hadn't committed any crimes, it would return good-to-go.

You could add residence info to it really easy for an 'instant' check if you wanted. If it's not already there. (Its illegal in this state to fail to update your residence info on your DL within a certain time period, for instance.)

[AtheistCrusader]

28. He used a fake id, which came back clean.

Likely because the fake id corresponds to a real, law abiding individual that exists, and would pass a NICS check.

[iverglas]

7. yup

Imagining that Kopp was the only one ever to beat the system with fake ID, let alone by multiple other methods, would be a fool's game.

[gorfle]

11. Why bother?

Why bother with the added expense and risk of obtaining a fake ID to buy a firearm from a dealer when you could buy it for less money and no paperwork through your local Penny Saver?

[iverglas]

12. you do want to read what I reproduced

Yes, Kopp used fake ID. Yes, he bought from a pawn shop.

Maybe there were no SKS-s for sale in the Pennysaver. He apparently called ahead to arrange the sale.

But then, that was over a decade ago.


Oh, and of course: how would a glaring flaw in the whole background check system (exclusion of private sales) be an answer to the assertion of other flaws in it?

:wtf:

[gorfle]

17. It just doesn't seem logical.

you do want to read what I reproduced

I didn't see anything in what you quoted about pawn shops or fake IDs. If I missed it I apologize.

Yes, Kopp used fake ID. Yes, he bought from a pawn shop.

Maybe there were no SKS-s for sale in the Pennysaver. He apparently called ahead to arrange the sale.

But then, that was over a decade ago.

I wonder if there is any data available on people using fake IDs to buy firearms from dealers? I never considered this angle. What about fake FOID cards?

Oh, and of course: how would a glaring flaw in the whole background check system (exclusion of private sales) be an answer to the assertion of other flaws in it?

I'm just pointing out that it doesn't seem logical. I would expect not many ineligible people would go to the effort and risk, considering there are much cheaper, less risky ways to go about it.

[spin]

13. Koop bought the weapon in 1997, NICS was implemented in 1998.

According to the affidavit unsealed Monday, James Kopp, used the name B. James Milton on a fake Virginia driver's license to buy a Russian SKS rifle from the A-Z Pawn Shop in Nashville, Tenn. on June 16, 1997. Kopp was arrested in France last week after a two-and-a-half year manhunt in the slaying of abortion provider Dr. Barnett Slepian.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93645&page=1
emphasis mine

From the FBI web page:

The National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, is all about saving lives and protecting people from harm—by not letting guns and explosives fall into the wrong hands. It also ensures the timely transfer of firearms to eligible gun buyers.

Mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998, NICS is used by Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to instantly determine whether a prospective buyer is eligible to buy firearms or explosives. Before ringing up the sale, cashiers call in a check to the FBI or to other designated agencies to ensure that each customer does not have a criminal record or isn't otherwise ineligible to make a purchase. More than 100 million such checks have been made in the last decade, leading to more than 700,000 denials.
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics.htm

emphasis mine

And we have been attempting to improve the NICS background check since then. Even the Brady Campaign agrees.

On January 8, 2008, the President signed the National Instant Check System (NICS) Improvement Amendments Act of 2007. The NICS system was first implemented in 1998, as required by the Brady Law.

****snip****

The Problem: Many states fail to supply thousands of records of prohibited gun buyers to the national Brady background check system. That means felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into a gun store and buy weapons without being stopped.

The Threat: Allowing dangerous people to purchase guns at gun stores threatens the safety of our families and communities.

The NICS Improvement Act Helps Fix the Records Gap Problem: The NICS Improvement Act will help encourage states to provide records of prohibited persons to NICS, and will require federal agencies to do so. The Act assists states by supplying grants and imposing financial penalties for failure to supply records.

Conclusion: The NICS Improvement Act is a major step forward in ensuring that records of dangerous people who are already prohibited from buying guns get into the Brady background check system. It will prevent more dangerous people from getting guns and help prevent gun violence.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/issuesarchive/nics/background/

[iverglas]

14. any idea

why he would have bothered producing ID, or the pawn shop owner would have requested it?

State law?

[spin]

16. I believe so...

I remember buying handguns prior to the NICS background check, and I had to show ID. (Florida)

I believe that there also were interim national provisions after 1993 while the NICS background check was being set up.

I favor the NICS background check and would like to see it extended to private sales, either on a voluntary basis or as a requirement.

I usually have little respect for the Brady Campaign but their support of the NICS background check was a noble effort.

Of course, the NRA also supports the NICS background check and improvements to the system.

After 52 years in Congress, John Dingell knows it sometimes takes a "rather curious alliance," such as between the National Rifle Association and the House's most fervent gun control advocate, to move legislation.

That's what took place Wednesday when the House, by voice vote, passed a gun control bill that Rep. Dingell, D-Mich., helped broker between the NRA and Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y.

With the NRA on board, the bill, which fixes flaws in the national gun background check system that allowed the Virginia Tech shooter to buy guns despite his mental health problems, has a good chance of becoming the first major gun control law in more than a decade.

"We'll work with anyone, if you protect the rights of law-abiding people under the second amendment and you target people that shouldn't have guns," NRA chief Wayne LaPierre told CBS News Correspondent Sheryl Atkisson

"As the Virginia Tech shooting reminded us, there is an urgent national need to improve the background check system" to keep guns out of the hands of those barred from buying them, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said.

The measure would require states to automate their lists of convicted criminals and the mentally ill who are prohibited under a 1968 law from buying firearms, and report those lists to the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS.
http://www.populistamerica.com/nra__democrats_team_up_to_pass_gun_bill

[iverglas]

18. aw, that's sweet

Of course, the NRA also supports the NICS background check and improvements to the system.

Of course, the NRA only supported NICS initially, i.e. agreed not to oppose the bill containing it, and fearing the bill's inevitable passage, in order to have the waiting period initially included in the bill removed.

As I understand it. ;)


Of course, its current position, cited above by you, highlights its willingness "work with anyone, if" it gets its own way, and damn anyone whose rights might be trampled, or interests overridden, along the way.

But we've discussed that one to death, and no need to get back into the violation of medical privacy involved in that little measure; just wanted to say.

[spin]

20. The medical privacy issue may be touchy...

true. Still, we should be able to work around it. Allowing people with severe mental problems to legally purchase firearms is, at the minimum, stupid.

It could be argued that the entire NICS system is an invasion of privacy. It probably embarrasses the hell out of someone who is denied when he attempts to buy a firearm from a dealer.

[SteveM]

37. The "cool down" period (30 days) works? 'Have sources for this? (nt)

[iverglas]

38. read much?

The order and placement of words in sentences really does matter. And other people really can see what they are, even if you can't or would like to pretend you can't.

What was said:

Works also as a 'cool down' period, too.

What you replied:

The "cool down" period (30 days) works? 'Have sources for this?

Maybe you'd like to ask that of someone who said something to which it is relevant.

[SteveM]

39. "You talking to me?" (I heard that somewhere.) (nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

27. Correct, the SKS is just a rifle.

Fixed 10 round magazine. Semi-Auto only. They can be modified (or decay) into something more resembling an 'assault rifle' by damaging the action in such a way it might fire multiple rounds with one pull of the trigger, or some extreme modification to allow it to accept detachable magazines, allowing large capacity ammunition feeding devices, making it an 'assault weapon', but barring extreme modification, it's a battle rifle, with a wimpy cartridge. Modifying it to fire full-auto is extremely unsafe, due to it's design and materials. I would not be surprised if it energetically dissasembled in your hands.

Apologies for the run-on sentence.

The fake ID sucks. Not much you can do, with the NICS check being a no-go check that only denies if a crime is reported to that identity. We'd need another sort of system to positively identify and authenticate someone, and establish their background is clean to eliminate that. Worth looking into. NICS is a good first step. But only a first step.

[iverglas]

33. sorry for being cryptic

My "(rifle??)" indicated my, er, incredulity at the idea that someone would have gone out and bought a rifle for the purpose of committing murders, and then committed murders with it.

Yes, handguns are used in most murders. Because of the nature of some murders, e.g. the premeditated killing of doctors from a distance, a rifle may be the best tool for the job, I think.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. Ah I see. Well, it makes some sense, in a rational way

however irrational a perpetrator of such a crime might be. Bringing a pistol to a rifle fight is a recipe for disaster. The 'DC Sniper' could never have gotten away with as much as he did, had he used a pistol. So some will unfortunately select a rifle and use it to greater effect than any handgun. Fortunately, the numbers who seem to realize that, or care to think about it, are quite low.

A side thought on the relative capacity for reason this sort of criminal seems to posess, an SKS is a pretty crappy choice. This is a role even the Chinese Military did not intentionally use this weapon for. Long range ballistics are not great with this cartridge. There are other rifles for 'reaching out and touching someone'. The contemporary equivalent for the Chinese would have been the NDM-86, their version of the Russian Dragunov. 7.62x54R, much longer and flatter trajectory than a shorter barreled SKS firing 7.62x39mm.

[iverglas]

36. perhaps he was setting up his defence ;)

It was, after all, that he wasn't intending to actually *hit* Dr. Slepian.

That unfortunate richochet, he said ...

[spin]

15. K&R (n/t)

[iverglas]

19. ooo!

Just because it'sinteresting?

That's when I do. ;)

[spin]

21. Sure, if the thread makes me think...

I hit recommend. If it's stupid and a waste of the internet, I hit unrecommended. It really doesn't matter which side of an issue the poster favors.

I can find plenty of forums where everyone agrees with my pro-gun views. I find agreeing with the political views on those forums as a mind numbing exercise in typing. I like posting on DU where not everyone agrees with me. Sometimes I learn new things.

[Historic NY]

22. he is suspected in a 2004 homicide of another young couple

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20090721/ARTICLES/907219964/1021/SPORTS05?Title=Possible-suspect-in-Jenner-slayings-dies-in-shootout

[iverglas]

24. details emerging

I'd seen the references to possibly linked incidents, and we will undoubtedly get more.

It seems that his culpability in the Canadian case is pretty much beyond question. If nothing tangible can be found to link him to the Washington state case it would be too bad, as it's always nice to know that the person responsible for such a crime is no longer in circulation, and of course provides some relief for families (and police).