Bicyclist allegedly shot at boys he said harassed him

[RamboLiberal]

On Wednesday evening, a 27-year-old Norristown man, Joseph James DePaul Jr., fired six rounds from a semiautomatic pistol during an encounter with two teenagers on the trail/bike path in Plymouth Township, police said.

The boys, 15 and 17, were not identified because of their ages. DePaul is facing criminal charges.

According to court records, DePaul told police he was riding his bike on the trail and almost crashed into a fence after a boy kicked him in the ribs near the 900 block of Conshohocken Road. DePaul said the boy had a BMX bicycle. Upset, DePaul fired all six rounds at the boy from a distance of 200 to 250 feet, the records say he told officers.

The younger boy told police that DePaul fired five shots at his friend and one shot at him that flattened his bike tire, the records state.

-----

Police charged DePaul on Thursday with two counts each of attempted murder, voluntary and involuntary manslaughter, aggravated assault, and reckless endangerment. All are felonies. (His permit was also revoked).

-----

The district attorney also said she and her husband were riding bikes on the trail near Norristown at 6:30 p.m. on a recent Sunday when they saw a group of teenagers enter the trail.

The group spread across the trail, partly blocking the way, Ferman said. As she and her husband approached, her husband lowered his shoulder and knocked one of them out of the way, according to her account.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20090725_Patrols_to_guard_the_trail.html

Sounds like some thuggish teens are taking over this trail and bike riders are in some danger. But at least from the report this guy was wrong to shoot at them. I don't think it would have been wrong though if he felt in danger to brandish the gun at the thugs.

[imdjh]

1. DId he hit anyone?

I've read the article twice, and I will grant you that I am tired, but I don't see where it says whether he hit either of the boys with his shots.


BTW, I have seen this sort of aggressive behavior by teenaged boys on the PInellas Trail. They use it as a footpath to get home from school and they will spread out to block a bicyclist's path. Others simply hang out on the path now and then and harass people. I've often thought that one would be shot eventually. The police make regular patrols, but the trail also has entrances and exits police cars can't use.

[iverglas]

4. good lord

I've often thought that one would be shot eventually.


We have ongoing contretemps between pedestrians and cyclists on various paths in various cities in Ontario -- cyclists using pedestrian paths, pedestrians occupying cyclists' side of the paths ...

But never, not once, have I ever thought that any of them would be shot eventually.

Colour me agape.

[imdjh]

6. This is something quite different.

This is not animosity between the power walkers, the duration cyclists, and folks wandering along at a snail's pace. These are teenaged boys who can be dangerous, and yes, one day one of them will probably go too far. When someone physically attacks you, and he's six feet tall the fact that he might only be 15 does not mean he is a child or is to be regarded as harmless. It doesn't happen all that often, and almost never on weekends when the trail is busy.

This is also not an artificial trail though a state park, it's a former railway and it's a thoroughfare used by cyclists and walkers to get places. It's like a road without cars. It's also popular with senior citizens who can't use their electric scooters safely on some of the secondary roadways. This trail runs from downtown St Pete all the way to Tarpon Springs, some 28 miles. And because it is a former railway, it runs through some industrial and pretty shabby residential in addition to the more stylish newer homes which advertise their convenience to it.

There has been some crime associated with this trail, but to date I haven't heard about a serious battery. I'd hate to give you a bad impression of the place, but assume that you know that bad things can happen anywhere. The difference might be that in Florida many people are armed.

[iverglas]

8. whatever

The difference might be that in Florida many people are armed.

No, the difference would seem to be that in Florida some people are assholes. And I'm not just talking about the yobs doing the harassing.

Assholes with guns, now there's a fun combination.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. We have a problem near Seattle,

with drug dealers actually on some of the trails. It's odd, but it makes some sense, since the police can't openly approach without being seen. All they have to do is watch out for the plainclothes officers.

[iverglas]

30. yeah, but

if they want to keep plying their trade in peace, they'd be pretty dumb to start trying to kick cyclists off their cycles. ;)

[AtheistCrusader]

32. True, but

the cyclist may have done something, which I would admit is somewhat dumb, but he might have said something to them about it. Things tend to spiral out of control pretty quick.

Better to just call the cops if you see something. Especially if you're carrying, because you'll be held to a higher standard.

This is all speculation of course, just suggesting it might not be as cut and dried as the initial news reports paint it.

[oneshooter]

5. He came close

"The younger boy told police that DePaul fired five shots at his friend and one shot at him that flattened his bike tire, the records state."

Using a 9mm at that distance, and being angry(high pulse and heart rate) is not recommended for accuracy.
That being said, at that distance the boys were no longer a threat. A charge of "attempted murder" would be filed in Texas. As a CCL holder he would have his permit pulled at once, and if convicted would face 2-5 years incarceration and loss of all of his rights to possess a firearm, forever.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Wickerman]

2. Gun control is critical

in incidents like this.

Upset, DePaul fired all six rounds at the boy from a distance of 200 to 250 feet

[Tim01]

3. Attempted murder. nt

[slackmaster]

7. I sometimes carry a weapon when I ride - This was a bad shoot

Shooting a handgun at that range is pointless and basically prima fascia evidence that you are not in danger.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. Agreein' with this.

Hope it wasn't actually the case, but yeah, 250 feet? Sorry pal, not only did you have little to no hope of hitting them, but pretty clear lack of danger to justify the shots.

[krispos42]

9. Oops

He'll be in jail for a while, I think. Deservedly so, unless one of those boys was packing a rifle.

[eqfan592]

10. Just to get on the record here...

...before somebody like Sharesunited shows up and starts claiming how "many of us" would view this as a "good shoot," this was not a "good shoot." He was clearly out of danger, at least from the evidence that is currently provided. I see nothing about the kids being armed in any way, and at that distance they were no threat to him.

[iverglas]

11. no true law-abiding gun owner

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/pennsylvania/20090723_ap_dapacrimevictimshouldnthavefiredgun.html

Montgomery County District Attorney Risa Vetri Ferman
says Joseph James DePaul Jr. was
carrying the gun lawfully.

Of course, when the numbers are added up, he won't count, because he didn't actually succeed in killing anybody.

[iverglas]

12. oh dear

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20090725_Patrols_to_guard_the_trail.html

At the same time, <Sheriff John P.> Durante moved to revoke DePaul's permit to carry a concealed firearm because, he said, carrying a firearm on any trail in the county or in its parks is "illegal and a violation of the rules and regulations of the Montgomery County park system."

To obtain a permit to carry, gun owners submit to a background check. The permit can be revoked by the sheriff at any time if the owner breaks the law.

"This guy was clearly the aggressor," Durante said. "That's why his permit is being revoked."

Durante said it was up to Ferman to decide if additional charges would be filed against DePaul for alleged firearms violations. Ferman declined to comment.

How can that be? Illegal to carry a firearm on a trail or in a park??

Surely the gun militants are working on that one.

[iverglas]

14. and sure enough ...

"Welcome to the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Forum ..."

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-open-carry-121/66745-sheriff-no-carry-park.html

... Sheriff: no carry in park
Here we go again:
Quote:
At the same time, Durante moved to revoke DePaul's permit to carry a concealed firearm because, he said, carrying a firearm on any county trail or in its parks is illegal.


... Re: Sheriff: no carry in park
Bike ride anybody?

... and oops again ...

http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-10/66729-bike-trail-fears-page-3.html


... Re: Bike trail of fears.
I sent an e-mail this afternoon to the writer / reporter of the Inquirer article:

... I can tell you with utmost certainty that the following statement attributed to Sheriff John P. Durante in your article is absolutely FALSE and incorrect. It is totally legal for any law abiding citizen to open carry and handgun or a citizen with a valid license to carry a firearm (LTCF) to carry a handgun concealed in any state, local or municipal parks or trails.


... Re: Bike trail of fears.

... We should make it clear that no LTCF is needed to open carry in county or municipal parks.

So hmm. If everybody has it right, he had a permit to carry a concealed firearm, carrying a concealed firearm on the trail is illegal, carrying a firearm openly on the trail is not illegal ...

I wonder which way he was carrying it? Openly, as a law-abiding gun owner would do, or concealed, as a non-law-abiding holder of a permit to carry a concealed firearm would do?

And I wonder how much reasonable, decent people care. ;)

[oneshooter]

18. iverglass you need to read what you post first

to Quote "It is totally legal for any law abiding citizen to open carry and handgun or a citizen with a valid license to carry a firearm (LTCF) to carry a handgun concealed in any state, local or municipal parks or trails.

It is legal to A. "any law abiding citizen to open carry and handgun"

And B."or a citizen with a valid license to carry a firearm (LTCF) to carry a handgun concealed in any state, local or municipal parks or trails"

If he had a CHL then he could carry either open or concealed, and be LEGAL in doing so.

"At the same time, Durante moved to revoke DePaul's permit to carry a concealed firearm"

He had a permit to CCL.

Slow down and check your own posts before you make an even bigger ass of yourself.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[iverglas]

20. tell it to the sheriff, and those PA open-carry people

If you are correct:

If he had a CHL then he could carry either open or concealed, and be LEGAL in doing so.

then I believe all you have done is provide grist for my mill, there, in any event. Eh?



edit - from the open-carry folks:

http://forum.pafoa.org/pennsylvania-10/66729-bike-trail-fears-page-2.html

Ummm, yea (maybe a nitpick) but an important one,
OC is NOT legit in STATE parks, LTCF or not,
AND LTCF is required OC or CC in the municipality of Philadelphia.

Looks like Martian to me, but maybe it with help you.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. Someone's going to have to do it in court.

IIRC, there was already a lawsuit pending by the NRA against the municipality of Philadelphia regarding it's ordinance, which is in violation of state law. It may have been tossed out due to the NRA itself not having standing. Someone, possibly the fellow in the story above is probably going to have to wade in with his ass on the line to fix it.

Seattle's mayor made the same mistake, until the state AG smacked him in the head for it. We have a very similar pre-emption state law.

[iverglas]

41. at the moment

it seems he's been charged with attempted murder and a few things along that line, but not with "firearms offences" specifically, so he may not get his chance to argue how excellent it is to let people like him tote their guns up and down the public trails.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Agreein' this guy doesn't sound like much of a champion.

But I'll withold judgment until the facts come out at trial. Been an awful lot of 'so and so did (X)' when it was really (Y), in the news lately.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. If open carry is legal

concealed carry with a legal license is legal too. Unless that state has some bizzarre provision I am not aware of, and not able to find.

Can you find a Penn statute more restrictive on locations you can CCW with a license, than you can open carry? I looked, I didn't find anything obvious, but that might be a failing on my search prowess.

[iverglas]

42. I was the one asking!

I saw conflicting assertions, and thought some kind soul might sort them out.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. By 'illegal' he means

they tacked up a sign that says it's illegal, with no force in law.

[gorfle]

46. As they should be.

How can that be? Illegal to carry a firearm on a trail or in a park??

Surely the gun militants are working on that one.

As they should be.

If this guy had shot his aggressors as he was being assaulted, rather than waiting until they had finished and were some 300 feet away, we'd all be congratulating him for his forethought.

Well, everyone except you, of course.

[Tim01]

13. If you moved from the U.S. you would have nothing to bitch about.

You should try that. Just leave the U.S., end of your hardships. Go to Canada. Then you will have nothing to whine about. Easy solution.

[iverglas]

15. as I was saying just yesterday

A day without the Guns forum would be like a day without The Three Stooges.

[Tim01]

16. You enjoy complaining. Noted. nt

[iverglas]

19. I'd love to see your notes

I'd also love to know what I was complaining about, of course.

[oneshooter]

21. iverglass is Canadian

he/she just doesn't like American law. Believes that we should all be subjects, not citizens.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas


PS he/she does like to bitch, moan, and complain!

[iverglas]

22. spoil-sport

he/she just doesn't like American la

If that's the case, it's about as relevant as my not liking Cheerios.


Believes that we should all be subjects, not citizens.

And that's just a lie. A really stupid lie at that. Maybe you heard it somewhere and are just innocently repeating it, eh?

[Tim01]

23. "The stab wounds on his hands told the tale of a furious fight for his life."

Canada sounds like a dangerous place.

"This region of polished high-rises, emerald spruce, azure waterways, and feel-good vibes finds itself in the midst of a gang war that has killed at least 18 young people this year."

"It got so bad this spring that police erected concrete barriers outside the homes of two gangsters to slow down potential drive-by assassins."

"Drug dealers are gunning down women (one with her 4-year-old son in the back seat), high school students with no gang allegiances, and, especially, one another, in broad daylight"

"The province became an important player in the Mexican cocaine marketplace in part by bartering its powerful home-grown marijuana, “B.C. Bud,’’"

http://www.boston.com/news/world/canada/articles/2009/07/05/fatal_gang_violence_racking_vancouver/

Be safe Canadians.

[iverglas]

24. oooooh, gooooogle

and continuing, the bit you skipped over:

Authorities trace the violence to the recent government crackdown on cocaine traffickers in Mexico, which has squeezed profit margins for cocaine north of the US border. Canada’s outlaw retailers are fighting to the death over market share, police say, a situation exacerbated by vendettas and vacuums left by the arrests of gang leaders.

"The war in Mexico directly impacts on the drug trade in Canada. . . . There’s a complete disruption of the flow of cocaine into Canada, and we are seeing the result," said Pat Fogarty, operations officer for the Combined Forces Special Enforcement Unit, British Columbia’s main law enforcement agency targeting organized crime.

The province became an important player in the Mexican cocaine marketplace in part by bartering its powerful home-grown marijuana, "B.C. Bud," which helps fuel what is estimated to be a $6.3-billion-a-year industry.

You folks decriminalize possession of cannabis and we'll do it the next day. We'd have done it years ago if your govts didn't keep threatening to destroy our economy if we do.

Now, I'm not actually ignorant enough to believe that decriminalizing any drug will eliminate organized crime and the horrors that accompany it, myself. It would probably have some beneficial effect, though.

Shutting down the gun pipeline from the US, by some responsible legislation being enacted there, would do at least as much.

Or did you think the guns those gangsters are using came from the local Abbotsford gunne shoppe?



typo fixed

[Tim01]

25. Go get your own economy. We are not your big brother. nt

[iverglas]

26. go take a high school economics course

- oh, and one in ethics, if they have one.

The relevant concept here is "trade". It's what happens between economies. We have one, thank you very much. So would Cuba have, if it weren't for your governments.

Trade. You know ... the thing that gets you all the natural gas and stuff you use down there ...

[AtheistCrusader]

36. And Prius batteries.

Heck of a nickle mine/smelter you have up there. (Sudbury I think?)

[iverglas]

43. the Big Nickel!

I spent a decade in Sudbury one summer ...

That was back when it was still moonscape, caused by fallout from that smelter. They had recently made the chimney higher, so the fallout falls farther away.



Hee hee. No, really --



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/pacificnw/2009264793_pacificpjason31.html




It sounds like time for Stompin Tom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkHhx3y__9w

Oh the girls are out to bingo
and the boys are getting stinko
and we think no more of nickel
on a Sudbury Saturday night ...

[AtheistCrusader]

47. Not a moonscape anymore?

Last I looked at satellite photos, there was a huge bare patch downwind.

(Why is Kennedy on that coin/monument?)

[iverglas]

49. yeah, but it's farther downwind ;)

Kennedy on the nickel is a commentary on the foreign ownership of Canadian resources, I suspect.

[eqfan592]

28. wow, I didn't think what I said was all that controversial...

...and yet I see it spawned a lengthy sub-thread! But most of the posts are from folks I have on ignore. :P Oh well! I guess I'll just use my imagination on what Iver had to say in response....

[Mercracer]

39. Spot on

You were spot on with your post. Iver came along and tried to crap on it.....

[virginia mountainman]

17. Their is no immediate threat to your life...

When your assailant is riding AWAY FROM YOU ON A BIKE....

Bad shoot, he should get some time for this.

Now excuse me, as I get ready to go for a ride on the New River Trail....With my sidearm.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. What, are we ALL bicyclists?

We've got black bears, and cougars here, how about you?

*Refuses to be an unarmed snack*

[virginia mountainman]

40. LOL!! I agree!

I have bears and coyotes that live in the woods around my home. Lots and LOTS of bear signs.

I don't plan on being a snack neither.

[Statistical]

27. Bad shoot. Even with incomplete informaiton we know the distance.

250ft.

1) He is an idiot. Almost nobody can hit anything past 50ft in combat conditions (adrenaline, stress, moving, moving target). He was shooting at 5x the max effective range.

2)At 250ft unless the kid was shooting at him with a rifle he wasn't in danger of bodily harm.

3)Generally speaking shooting at a fleeing suspect just so they don't escape is a stupid idea.

Even result is he ruined his life. He is looking at massive legal fees, jail time, felony conviction for the rest of his life, and will never lawfully own a firearm. No sympathy.

[aikoaiko]

31. I don't think I understand what happened?

Was the shooter attacked or did he do the attacking?

Was he kicked in the ribs while riding and the assailants were 65-85 yards away? Were they advancing?

Or was he just shooting in anger over some bullying?

I don't get it. :shrug:

[iverglas]

44. I think you got it ;)

"Or was he just shooting in anger over some bullying?"

*allegedly* !

[gorfle]

45. Confusing article.

The first half of the article sounds like there was a fellow who was assaulted on the trail who then fired back at his attackers after the threat was gone. Bad use of a firearm.

Then we hear from the District Attorney's wife that that same weekend she and her husband were blocked on the trail by a bunch of teenagers, and her husband rammed one of them with his shoulder, knocking him out of the way.

Not sure what the latter has to do with the former, and I'm not sure why there weren't charges pressed against the District Attorney for running people down with his bicycle.

[iverglas]

50. not quite that confusing!

A man and his son are in a car crash.
They both go to different hospitals in different ambulances.
The doctor walks in to the ER and says:
"I can't operate on this boy -- he's my son!"


Then we hear from the District Attorney's wife that that same weekend she and her husband were blocked on the trail by a bunch of teenagers, and her husband rammed one of them with his shoulder, knocking him out of the way.

"The district attorney also said she and her husband were riding bikes on the trail near Norristown at 6:30 p.m. on a recent Sunday when they saw a group of teenagers enter the trail."


but slightly confusing, yes.

[SteveM]

51. Keep the gun strapped and put a cow-catcher on the bike (nt)