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Observations from my South Carolina Beach Vacation, re CCW

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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:15 AM
Original message
Observations from my South Carolina Beach Vacation, re CCW
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 01:19 AM by virginia mountainman
I recently got back from a wonderful vacation, in sunny South Carolina. My wife, and our two kids had a wonderful time staying along the Grand Strand, and had a blast.

My wife and I carried our defensive sidearms practically the whole time. I noticed, that most of the "no guns" signs are history now, at privately owned businesses and most of the few that remain, are unenforceable under South Carolina law.

I know several of us, DU'ers hold CCW permits, have you all been noticing the same thing over the years? Less and less businesses are posted "no guns" for y'all as well?

We stayed for almost two weeks, and the only times we needed to lock our sidearms up, was when we ate at a high end restaurant, that serves alcohol, where we where prohibited by statute. Or when we went swimming.

Out of ALL the stores, and shops we went too, NONE where posted "no guns" NOT A SINGLE ONE, and boy, my wife and daughter had at it!

NONE of the restaurants we saw, or ate at where posted "No Guns"

The condo we stayed at had a NO GUN policy, but it excepted "Lawful CCW" holders, it was only noted on the BACK of the papers they gave us when we picked up the keys, it was in the small print, and was clearly unenforceable under South Carolina law, their where ZERO signs on the property. But their was a sign about not getting into the pool, if you have diarrhea.

Only ONE "activity" we did, was posted as a "No Guns" place, but the signs where completely invalid, as they did not comply with South Carolina law. **SEE BELOW FOR SOUTH CAROLINA's SIGN REGULATION**.....Actully, I did not see ANY, LEGAL, "No guns" sign in South Carolina...

We WHERE going to go to Fort Sumpter, but we did not get to this year.

The tide has definitely turned, seemed like back in the late 1990's the NO GUNS signs where almost ubiquitous, but not no more, now they are the exception, rather than the rule.

What are your experiences with this?

**
SECTION 23-31-235. Sign requirements.

(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.

(B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:

(1) clearly visible from outside the building;

(2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;

(3) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black one inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal;

(5) a diameter of a circle; and

(6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building’s entrance door.

(C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:

(1) thirty six inches wide by forty eight inches tall in size;

(2) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black three inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;

(4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety six inches above the ground;

(5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises.
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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think it's really weird you feel the need to carry a gun everywhere
and you only take it off at a "high end restaurant" or a "swimming pool".

Just saying. :shrug:
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Not weird, just prepared...
Just like the spare tire, fire extinguisher, and first aid kit....

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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. If you were in class at VA Tech I can see it coming in handy...
but other than that, I don't really get it. Aren't you 100x more likely to shoot yourself or have your kid shoot himself by lugging that thing around everywhere? :beer:
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. VT is just down the road from me..
My wife's Uncle, is one of the head Deans their.

And NO, We practice, strict gun handling procedures here..We have never, ever, even had an Accidental Discharge. Guns are only tools, and as such, they are only as good as their user.

Statistical, Shooting Sports, are among the Safest sports you can take part in.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. VA Tech
Do you think a single person at VA Tech knew they were going to need a gun that day? At Luby's cafeteria in Kileen the police found that 4 of the victims had guns in their cars that would have stopped the killer (who ran to the back of the restaraunt and killed himself as soon as the cops showed up) but they weren't allowed to carry them under Texas law (at the time). The logic behind carrying a gun all the time is the same as the logic behind keeping your spare tire in your car, or a fire extinguisher in your kitchen. You may NEVER need it but if you do you're going to need it real bad and right now
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. university of Washington
gun carry is legal at washington state colleges.

you shoudl SEE the carnage!
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. CSU also NT
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
70. "If" is the key. Nothing is handy unless it is within reach.
BTW, where do you get the "100X more likely to shoot yourself..." datum? Did I miss this variation on the Kellerman study?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
47. which, of course,
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 04:53 PM by iverglas

Just like the spare tire, fire extinguisher, and first aid kit....

... you arrange tastefully about your person wherever you go ...



html fixed

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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
66. i carry CPR mask on me
foldable. at all times. it's as routine as a wallet... or a gun.

is there a NEED to? no. i could perform CPR without one, but i've already performed it twice without one, and that's enuf for me. thx.

i have fire insurance. i even had one on my house i had paid off (iow was not required). did i NEED it? no.

i chose to.

i have about 6 months of dry food supply in my house. do i NEED it? no. i choose to.

i carry a firearm sometimes. do i NEED to? no. it's a choice

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. Ooooh!

i have fire insurance.

Does your fire insurance put out fires???

Please tell me where you got it. Maybe they have a Canadian branch.


i carry a firearm sometimes. do i NEED to? no. it's a choice

I wonder who it is you're talking to ...
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. the need canard!
it's #1. with a bullet!

debunked numerous times, but still has a beat you can dance to. and still gets trotted out in most gun threads.

it goes like this.

why do you NEED to carry a gun in...

i don't ever NEED to carry a gun, or NEED to exercise my rights under the 1st, 4th, 5th, etc.

nobody need ever justify their expression of civil rights by demonstrating an individual NEED of them/

and somebody carrying a firearm... it doesn't follow that they have a NEED to do so.

i carry a foldable CPR mask. always. do i NEED to? no. i CHOOSE to.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. the "need canard" canard!!!

nobody need ever justify their expression of civil rights by demonstrating an individual NEED of them

Not big on analytical thought, are you?

No one suggested that anyone had to JUSTIFY carrying a firearm by a need to do so.

The fact is that people do things for REASONS, and not because they have a right to.

They may not have to explain the reasons to anyone, but they have reasons.

And you have just spat out a big honking strawball.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
44. If I could PREDICT when I NEED to carry a weapon...
I would rarely carry one (if ever).

In all probability most concealed carry permit holders will never NEED a weapon. You might carry one your entire adult life and hopefully you will never find yourself in a position to use it.

But there is that extremely rare chance that you might have a reason to use your concealed weapon. Having it with you at that time helps.

I wish someone would come up with a computer program that would remind me that on a given day, I should carry my weapon. Much simpler, and in reality on that day I probably would just stay home.

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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Sometimes I get mad at people. Add alcohol, and...
I'm just saying it doesn't seem like a great idea. The one time you find yourself in some saloon and a gunfight breaks out, perhaps I get it. Otherwise, just seems like you're a lot more likely to have something bad happen.

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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Good, you should realize your limitations...
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 05:07 PM by spin
If you have problems with anger management or you tend to abuse alcohol then guns are NOT for you.

I haven't been in a "saloon" or a bar in twenty years. I do carry a conceal weapon in the restaurant portion of an establishment, but I don't visit the bar.

My carrying a weapon will not cause something "bad to happen". If however, something bad does happen it might help save my ass or my family.

edited for typo
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #45
59. I'm Glad You Recognize Your Limits
Please don't try to impose them on me
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Welcome to DU. (n/t)
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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. LOL - ummm...
Whatever...tote your guns. Do you support the yay-hoos who bring them to Obama rallies?

:beer:
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Are they breaking any laws? n/t
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. As I understand they brought firearms NEAR the rallies...
and because they open carried their weapons they were looking for their 15 minutes of fame.

They didn't do anything illegal nor did they in any way endanger Obama, but they didn't do responsible firearms owners any favor.

If I was going anywhere near a gathering that involved a President when I lived in Tampa (assuming I knew about it), my firearms stayed home. Note: I didn't state I planned on attending the event, I said if I was going to be anywhere near the event.

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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Guns At Town Hall
Why not? I carried at our TH last thursday. My gun never once jumped out og my holster and began shooting people
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #45
71. "...more likely to have something bad happen." Any data on this? (nt)
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. I don't recall a 'no gun' sign. Ever. It used to be understood.
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 01:24 AM by babylonsister
That makes you happy?
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Not really happy..
Just glad that common sense is taking hold!

I think Texas is another state, with strict sign reqirements aswell.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/signposting.htm

PROHIBITING HANDGUNS IN A BUSINESS OR OTHER ENTITY

In order to provide notice that entry on property by a license holder with a concealed handgun is forbidden, Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(A) requires that a written communication contain the following language:

"PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN."

"CONFORME A LA SECCIÓN 30.06 DEL CÔDIGO PENAL (TRASPASAR PORTANDO ARMAS DE FUEGO) PERSONAS CON LICENCIA BAJO DEL SUB-CAPITULO H, CAPITULO 411, CODIGO DE GOBIERNO (LEY DE PORTAR ARMAS), NO DEBEN ENTRAR A ESTA PROPIEDAD PORTANDO UN ARMA DE FUEGO."



Penal Code Section 30.06(c)(3)(B) further states that a sign must meet the following requirements:

includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
72. At some of the many outdoor concerts in Austin...
an announcement is made in the form of a request to "leave your guns at home." It gets a round of laughter, applause and smart-assed comments. I don't carry at these events; in fact, most folks don't. But some do. I just don't worry about it (hell, if you can't see 'em, what's to worry about?).
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. The only places I have seen a "no guns" sign was on government buildings,
such as the Post Office, and I have seen them at airports. I have never seen them on a store or restaurant.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. LOL where is "Zombie Nation" at??
Yea, government entities, are about the only ones left. Seems like the No Guns policy, works so well at Post Offices, and Schools.

They have all but disappeared in the private sector.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
38. I've never seen one on a business in Washington State either.
I have some friends that have asked me not to carry in their homes, and that's fine (I ask permission), but nothing in the private sector.

There are some 'no guns' signs in public spaces near my home, but they are illegal and unenforcable under state law, so oh well.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. Nothing quite says "I'm ready to relax at the beach," like a gun strapped to your side!
n/t
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. It is relaxing, when you are out with your loved one
For a late night walk along the beach, in your bare feet, listening and feeling the surf that is stirred up by an offshore hurricane. Knowing you have a way to protect your spouse from a violent felon that would like to take advantage of your remote situation if the need arises.

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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Good lord, I can't imagine what our beaches here would be like without guns...!
Oh wait....
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givemebackmycountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
9. Gee, what a country!
A country where "my wife and I wore defensive firearms almost the entire time" on my vacation.
Sounds like utopia Bro...

Couldn't you get the kids packing too?
Because you never know, maybe Plaxico Burress was vacationing there.

54 years on this planet, and NOT ONCE have I ever said "Gee, I wish I had a DEFENSIVE FIREARM" since I'm going on vacation.
I bet you were pissed when you discovered that you could not take your "DEFENSIVE FIREARM" swimming.

What are your experiences with this?

Avoid going on a vacation where there are people with DEFENSIVE FIREARMS.
I find that works well when I am happy and 3/4 of the way through a bottle of Chinaco tequila and a fair amount of smoked God's flowers.
The last thing I want to run into is YOU.
And your DEFENSIVE FIREARM.




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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well since you asked..
My wife and I, are coming to Florida, in a few months..

Our Virgina permits, are good in Florida as well...

Actually, since you live in Florida, your probably around people all the time that are armed, and YOU, never know it...
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givemebackmycountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I'm man enough, that I will take that chance.
I don't care if I die with a chest full of slugs.
I'll die a peace loving sort.

It's sad that you think you need to be armed everywhere you go.
But, that's the country you lock and load folks have worked so hard to create.

And to tell me your "coming to Florida in a few months" sounds like a threat to me.
Why is that germaine to the conversation?
You could be going to freaking Alabama for all I care.

Your a BIG MAN with your "DEFENSIVE FIREARM".

You never asked me if I own one or two as well.
Maybe I DON'T BRAG ABOUT MY DEFENSIVE FIREARM.

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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. No, it was no threat it was a....
..statement, of truth! We are going to visit my best friend's family, before he goes overseas for several years! Their is no threat of Violence? Why do you think that?

Why are you so defensive? No threat was made???

You said, that you did not want to be around "defensive firearms" I was jokingly referencing Florida's since 1987, shall issue Gun Permit laws.

I was pointing out the fact, that you probably, if you go out to town, are around several people, that are legally armed, and you would never know it.

The ONLY way you would have anything to worry about me is, if you are planning on attacking, me, my wife, or my kids...

Since you are so wound up, I must ask...

ARE you planning on committing a violent attack against ME?!
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givemebackmycountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. YOU, were the one that felt compelled to tell me that ...
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 02:24 AM by givemebackmycountry
"YOU were coming to Florida"
Bringing your "DEFENSIVE FIREARM".

Obviously you took the time to read my profile and felt you had to tell me that.
Did I say "I'm coming to Virgina?"

Tell you what.
Live your life.
Leave me the hell alone.
I'm sorry I ever responded to your post.
As I was doing it, I was thinking... "man don't do this"
Now, I know why.

George Tiller was murdered with a "DEFENSIVE FIREARM".

Come to Florida.
Enjoy the sunshine, and the afternoon rains.
And PRAY you don't run into someone just like you.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Wow, what amazing amounts of hostility..
What does George Tiller have to do with this???

Actually, I think his offices, where "No Gun" zones as well.

Run into someone like me?? That would be cool. I am the most laid back person I know! :hippie:

But you, on the other hand, are SCARRRRRRY :scared:
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. the NEED canard again!
interlaced with some subtle suggestions towards the penis canard, but not yet realized. see the "BIG MAN" comments...

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. get a grip

before you choke to death on the straw.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
40. If you ran into me on the beach
You'd never even know I'm carrying.

That's the point of concealed carry. It remains concealed, until and unless.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. Ok, well we know you won't be the guy in the speedo NT
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Yeah, we don't really do speedo's on the NW coast.
Even in August it was too cold.

If the weather permitted such skimpy clothing, I would keep the gun in the car, on the beach with me, or maybe in the soft side housing of the cooler, or something. I would remain armed.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Unless I'm Wearing Scrubs I'm Armed NT
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
73. Plaxico Burress? Who fears him other than Plaxico Burress?
"The last thing I want to run into is YOU. And your DEFENSIVE FIREARM."

If you don't know the poster (or anyone) is carrying, how would you know what not to run into?
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:58 AM
Response to Original message
18. Return of the Wild Wild West
Shoot out at OK Corral at High Noon, only this time is will be shoot out at the parking lot.

Makes me feel really, really, reeeealy safe!


Someday I will accidentally cut of some guy with a testosterone problem and bam, he will blow my head off.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Blood In The Streets
Is a common theme among anti gunners but it has yet to happen. The truth is that crime rates drop in states that have “shall issue” permit systems. In Florida had a rash of car jackings that only ended after the state made it legal to carry a fire arm in your vehicle W/out a permit. In Vermont no permit whatsoever is required to legally carry a concealed fire arm, haven’t heard of too many folks up that way getting in to gun fights.

Also in the “old west” they had fewer (per capita) violent crimes than New York City
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Yet to happen?
It happens all over America every night. The cities are full of people being SHOT. As shot by people with guns.

Open up the newspaper in any city and look a the numbers of bystanders killed by stray bullets from a shoot out in the street.


I lived in the rural midwest, and let me tell you there are crazies there with guns too.


YET TO HAPPEN MY ASS!
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Shootings are down..
The crime rate has dropped to levels not seen since the 60's, media sensationalism notwithstanding.

Funny thing is, crime has dropped faster in most states with 'shall issue' CCW than others without. I wouldn't say there's a causal link, but it's worth exploring.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. People are stabbed too. And beaten to death.
Crime is directly related to the economy. And not at all related to people carrying guns.

If you look at the numbers it is really really obvious.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. You're more likely to be shot by a police officer than by a concealed carry holder.
Concealed carry holders commit violent crimes at half the rate of police officers, and one third the rate of "normal" people.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Take a look at who the shooters are.
In the bulk of the cases they are people who are engaging in a business that is both violent and a plague on society, namely dealing drugs and the associated gang activity protecting turf.

Sure there are other causes for shootings. The bulk of it, however, is directly related to illegal drug sales. Dope dealers, for the most part, don't bother complying with the CCW laws of their states any more than they do the sections regarding the sale of drugs or crimes of violence.

Show me any State where CCW holders are a significant percentage of criminal offenders. I'll let you set the bar wherever you wish.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. The Difference
Yes there are shootings every night in most American cities. Shootings by crooks and gang bangers using their weapons to commit crimes. I have yet to hear of a shoot out involving a CHP holder in which an innocent bystander has been hurt BY THE PERMIT HOLDER. The bad guys (who ignore gun laws anyway) will still have guns disarming the good guys isn’t the solution
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
41. Yet to happen by lawfully concealed carry members.
There have been a couple exotic incidents, but the people shooting each other at night in the inner cities, don't even have concealed carry permits. Nor are most of them legally eligable to posess a permit, let alone a firearm.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
65. The majority of the shootings you describe involve career criminals or...
criminal drug gangs fighting over turf.

Obviously, criminals by nature tend to ignore laws.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. But, in the
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 02:58 PM by billh58
"Old West," most civilized towns and cities had "no carry" policies. You had to check in your guns with the local cops, and pick them up when you left. The Hollywood version of a chaotic, anything-goes, "Wild West" is mostly a myth, and gun fights in the street were a rare occurrence. That actually came later, during Prohibition.

CCW and open-carry in crowded public areas is a relatively recent phenomenon, and is a resurgence of the "don't let a bully kick sand in your face," self-defense school of thought (not a judgment, but an observation). The fear that Democrats will somehow weaken the 2nd Amendment, along with the election of the nation's first African-American president, has also fueled a frenzy to acquire firearms before the "grabbers" take them away. It is telling that most (but not all) of the recently relaxed CCW and open-carry laws have been enacted in "Red" states, and backed up by a Right-leaning SCOTUS.

All forms of self-defense have been morally justifiable, and legal, since the dawn of civilization. As the proliferation of firearms escalates, however, so will the number of people carrying guns -- both good guys and bad guys. We are witnessing a fear-inspired arms-race by not-so-well-regulated civilian militias (comprised of "evil-doers" on one side, AND "patriots" on the other) and our Constitution guarantees their right to possess the means to instantly kill each other.

As for the other part of the argument that it is every citizen's patriotic duty to be armed in the event that our Federal Government becomes tyrannical, the question remains: who decides when that time has come? Will it be the Texas secessionists, and their Southern brothers and sisters (again)? Will it be the Aryan Nation? Will it be the KKK? Will there be a vote? Or, have we learned anything at all from the bloodiest war ever fought on American soil?

Luckily, I live in Hawaii (a decidedly Blue State) where 99% of the citizens who own guns only use them for home protection, and hunting. Not a single strap-on in sight, nor much need for them, as Hawaii enjoys the lowest gun-death rate per capita in the nation...;-)

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Only for the cowtowns.
"Old West," most civilized towns and cities had "no carry" policies. You had to check in your guns with the local cops, and pick them up when you left.
That only applied to the towns that were at the end of the cattle drives. It was because of the problem of the drovers raising hell in the towns. Towns with a different economic basis than the trail herds didn't have that policy. Notice that the James gang and The Daltons met their end when townsfolk noticed that the bank was being robbed and everybody started shooting at the bandits. The James gang at Northfield, MN, and the Daltons at Coffeyville, KS.

I can't prove it, but I strongly suspect that the no-carry rule wasn't applied to residents.
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Right, because there are shootouts all the time.
Those who carry are ALWAYS just shooting it out, right?
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. two more canards
1) the wild west canard. hint: the wild west was mostly a hollywood created myth.

2) the FEELING canard. it doesn't matter what the facts are, i don't FEEL safe around CCW. therefore, it's bad.

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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #34
75. During the "wild west" era, crime rates in Eastern cities were higher (nt)
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. A misnomer
murder rates in the wild west were actually remarkably low, despite the easy availability of firearms.


Hollywood inflated the numbers, same as the media does today.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
74. Still watching those old B&W T.V. shows? Still listening to the Bradys? (nt)
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katmondoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
19. The whole story makes me sick
this is the wild west. We are going backwards in time.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. You really should check in with reality from time to time.
Gun proliferation is up and violence is down. That's the bottom line.

Is violence gone? Nope. The only way a country of humans will get the violence down much more is with a dictator. Freedom involves risk. There are no free rides.

In countries with a lot lower crime, criminals are quickly executed by the dictator. Crime goes down with all the criminals dead.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
46. Currently DC, Chicago and New York are far more violent then the "WILD WEST".
read some history in between watching TV and movies. Don't accept the Bray Campaign propaganda as gospel.

* In Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year.
* In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, not a single person was killed in 1869 or 1870.

Zooming forward over a century to 2007, a quick look at Uniform Crime Report statistics shows us the following regarding the aforementioned gun control “paradise” cities of the east:

* DC – 183 Murders (31 per 100,000 residents)
* New York – 494 Murders (6 per 100,000 residents)
* Baltimore – 281 Murders (45 per 100,000 residents)
* Newark – 104 Murders (37 per 100,000 residents)

It doesn’t take an advanced degree in statistics to see that a return to “wild west” levels of violent crime would be a huge improvement for the residents of these cities.

The truth of the matter is that the “wild west” wasn’t wild at all … not compared to a Saturday night in Newark.
http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minneapolis-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m2d17-Dispelling-the-myth-of-The-Wild-West
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
76. "This is the wild west"? Then where are all the hunting grounds? (nt)
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
20. Even though VA doesn't require a specific sign there are a lot less no guns signs.
Nobody tends to look for a store that has a "no gun" sign but plenty of people go out of their way to avoid stores with "no gun" sign.

One of the boards I frequent at one time had a list of "gun unfriendly" establishments in Hampton Roads. They stopped a while ago simply because there are so few now.

Business learned a long time ago that gun owners are a principled type of customer. I won't provide revenue for hoplophobes even when I am not carrying. I will let management know. Most national chains prohibit individual stores from setting policies like that so notifying national management often will get the sign removed.

The antis tend not to be in large enough numbers nor motivated enough to only shop at "no gun" stores to make up for the numbers of people who stop shopping.

Right after VA passed "shall issue" laws thousands, maybe tens of thousands of no gun signs went up. Today 90% of them have come down.

If VA passed something similar to SC with a specific language on the sign likely more would come down and never be replaced.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. I'm not educated in this area.
What law are we talking about that S.C. has that Va doesn't?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Specific signage.
Edited on Tue Sep-01-09 08:47 AM by Statistical
To have any standing a sign in NC must meet specific criteria. For example they can't simply say "no gun" or have no sign posted and later find out the have a "no gun policy". In NC the sign must meet the criteria the OP listed such as the exact words "NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED".

Since VA allows open carry the language would obviously need to be different. The general idea is that the sign should be clear, obvious, standardized, post at ALL entrences (one mall in Hampton roads only has no gun signs on some door WTF?) and not use vague terms like "weapon use prohibited" (I saw that at a BB&T bank), or be in ultra tiny print mixed in with other info like hours of operation and the mgt companies address.

Not a big deal but a minor point I would like legislature to pass someday.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
49. In Florida, when we passed concealed carry...
a lot of establishments posted "No gun" signs.

I used to call the manager of the business and explain that he had just lost a customer. Many other permit holders did the same.

In a reasonably short period of time the signs came down.

In reality, the business owner initially reacted to concerns by the anti-gun crowd who had their panties in a wad. After all the furor died down, the business owner wisely took the signs down.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
50. ah, the South

I haven't been there since 2003. Before that, about 1998. What year did Seinfeld end? That year. Watched the final episode in Florida.

Love those retailers. All the "AMERICAN OWNED!!!" motels. And the guy trying to sell me a bicycle who decided to tell me a tale about some other customers of his. You know, those nnnnnnnn people. My ears were stunned. Me, a total stranger, a tourist looking to spend money, being told racist tales by a racist.

I wonder whether he has a No Guns sign. Kinda doubt it. I know how much he'd love to have a No Nnnnnns sign.

So many reasons to vacation at home.


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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Yep, the 9500 a week beach house is fine with you not there
so I can carry a weapon legally and hopefully more whiny people will choose fire island over my place. I meet plenty of racists in my travels, no shortage of them anywhere i visited.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
53. K&R. Some good discussion. (n/t)
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-01-09 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
56. I've never seen a no guns sign, federal buildings excepted
But then my state has had concealed and open carry for as long as I can recall.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #56
67. What State, if you don't mind tellin' us? NT
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-02-09 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. New Hampshire n/t
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