Study: Gun Shows Main Source Of Guns Used In Crime

[kpete]

Source: CBS

Sep 2, 2009 6:53 am US/Pacific
Study: Gun Shows Main Source Of Guns Used In Crime
More Local News
DAVIS, Calif. (CBS13) ―

Assault weapon offered for 'private sale' at a gun show in Jacksonville, Florida. The buyer will not have to go through a background check or fillout a Firearms Transaction Record unless the seller happens to also be a licensed retailer.


A new report from UC Davis researchers finds that American gun shows are the leading source of guns used in crimes, not just in the United States, but Mexico and Canada as well.

The undercover study by UC Davis Violence Prevention Research Program is called "What Goes On When Everybody Thinks Nobody Is Looking". The report includes hundreds of hidden-camera photographs and video taken from 78 gun shows in 19 states.

The report shows the two-thirds of gun sales at gun shows are through licensed vendors. The others are sold through unlicensed vendors or private gun show attendees, who do not have to do background checks or file any paperwork. The study state that 85% of recovered crime guns have gone through at least one private party transaction following their initial sale by a licensed retailer.

Hidden camera pictures in the report show dozens of private party or unlicensed gun purchases where no identification is requested or shown.

Read more: http://cbs13.com/local/gun.shows.crime.2.1159216.html

[slackmaster]

1. The conclusion does not follow logically from the data, and does not agree with DoJ survey results

The study state that 85% of recovered crime guns have gone through at least one private party transaction following their initial sale by a licensed retailer.

I don't have any reason to doubt that factoid. Most people who commit violent crimes already have criminal records that make them ineligible to buy a gun from a licensed dealer. They buy them from friends, acquaintences, and family members, and from other criminals.

However, not all private-party transfers happen at gun shows. (I personally have never bought a gun from a private individual at a gun show, and I have bought several from private individuals.) And although the researchers documented private-party transfers at gun shows (not in California BTW), they present absolutely no evidence that ANY of the guns sold in those transactions were subsequently used in crimes. It's complete bullshit.

:dunce:

Here is some contradictory data from the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics:

According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%

- a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%

- family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

K&U

:kick:

[NashVegas]

2. The Girl Who Killed Steve McNair Got A Gun From a Friend

No telling where he got it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

18. She got the gun from a convicted murderer for whom it was illegal to possess.

[iverglas]

44. fucking duh

And he got it when it fell like a lawn dart from the sky.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

97. I'll be praying for you Iverglas.

[Xithras]

13. The authors own data cites show that only 13% come from shows.

And under 10% of juvenile gun crimes follow sales originating at gun shows.

I read the first couple sections of the report, and it basically boils down to this: "It's easy to get a gun at a gun sale, so that must be where all the gun crime comes from. Although my data says that I'm wrong, and although I could only find a single high profile example of a gun show weapon being used in a major crime, I don't like the people who run them or the way they work, so I'm going to make that assertion anyway. Even though my own data shows that I'm wrong."

[slackmaster]

15. The report is filled with photos of Nazi crap and other nastiness

The imagery is not representative of any of the gun shows I have attended. There is quite a bit of cherry-picking.

[Euromutt]

101. This thread actually prompted me to take a look at "The Turner Diaries"

Seeing as how it gets mentioned whenever the topic of gun shows comes up. Not that I bought a copy, you understand; I found a .pdf online. Good thing too, or I'd have wanted my money back.

The main thing it reminded me of was Birth of a Nation, only set a century later and without the cinematographic innovations that keep Birth of a Nation from sinking into otherwise well deserved oblivion. It's pretty much the work of a psychopath (well, that goes without saying, really, but even if you didn't know who the author was, a reasonable person would come to that conclusion), who can't articulate why the antagonists in the book (blacks, Jews, liberals) are evil without resorting to caricatures with zero basis in reality. It reads like a rather bad fanfic (I'm given to understand the Left Behind series suffers from this problem as well).

I got about a third of the way in before I decided I had better things to do. If that's the best the racist right can do for a Bible, they're in pretty bad shape.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. The priceless hypocrisy of the gun grabbers, it never ceases.

[imdjh]

21. What a stupid fucking statistic. WEASEL ALERT

"- family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
"

Well, you can drive a harvester through that one.

[slackmaster]

42. The relevant figure is the 2% figure given for acquisitions at gun shows and flea markets

:hi:

[iverglas]

45. "family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%"

And they all got them when they fell like lawn darts from the sky.

[Tim01]

3. This is because gunshows have magical powers.

Seriously, gun shows are no different than the rest of florida. They do put a lot of sellers and a lot of buyers together in the same place.

Pro-gun people have been asking for a system to check out people before selling a gun for a long time now. But we are not getting it.

A system that made it so we could be sure the buyer is not a fellon, and still doesn't leave a paper trail of the purchase would not a big trick. But we can't seem to get the radicals on either side to get on board with it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. "...gun shows are no different than the rest of florida."

Yeah. That's what's so scary.

[PavePusher]

57. Why the panic?

No-one is trying to force a gun into your sweating, trembling hand.

Yeah, I know, Charlton Heston is so going to jack-slap me when I die...

[iverglas]

69. why the disingenuous misrepresentation?

"Panic". How cute. Why the disingenuous misrepresentation?


No-one is trying to force a gun into your sweating, trembling hand.

Your face, your back, maybe ... I doubt that anyone is really concerned about their hand.

[PavePusher]

77. "disingenuous misrepresentation" indeed.

So glad to see you never disappoint us. Good night to you.

[iverglas]

80. I think I've seen you bid me good night

At least 3 times tonight.

Could you just get it over with?

[WeDidIt]

4. Here's a solution to the loophole

All gun transactions must go through licensed dealers. Even a private transaction would require that a licensed retailer be the go-between for the transaction.

This would add to a "well regulated militia".

[slackmaster]

6. That is how it's done here in California, for ALL private sales (not just at gun shows)

It's up to the states to regulate private sales. The federal government has no power to do that.

[derby378]

9. Even between parent and child?

I think that's a stretch.

[WeDidIt]

17. All transfers of ownership, regardless

There can be no exceptions.

[Xithras]

30. California is has a decent system, and doesn't require it for parent/child transfers.

The background check and waiting period isn't required for any parent/child transfers, but there is a stipulation that handgun transfers have to be reported within 30 days. Long arms don't have to be reported for in-family trades at all.

[Tim01]

That's called gun registration, and it's expensive. No thanks. There are better ways. nt

[pipoman]

62. If it were only that easy it would have been done years ago..

the whole "gun show loophole" has been in campaigns since NICS was made law in 1994, still no fix. The reason is that intrastate commerce is outside of the jurisdiction of the Fed. If a state passes such a measure, like Cali, fine..the federal gov't. can't mess with in state transactions. The only solution I have stated in the past is to allow use of the NICS system through FFL's on a voluntary basis for a low statutory fee of say $20. Allow any seller who chooses to use the system immunity from prosecution either civilly or criminally if they use the system to transfer their gun and the gun is later used in a crime. At gun shows have an BATFE free (or not) NICS check station for private sales. Then run a public awareness campaign to encourage private sellers to use the system. I believe that even the NRA would support such a proposal.

[Hoopla Phil]

116. Please look op the definition of "well regulated militia". It does not

mean what you think (maybe want) it to mean. A little research and you will find that "regulated" in this context means of same type.

[Recursion]

5. Huh? The author seems to think all private transactions happen at gunshows

I'm confused here.

[slackmaster]

7. No, you are not confused

The conclusions are nonsensical.

[iverglas]

46. "I'm confused here."

You certainly seem to be.

Can you refer to the portion of the study that gave you the impression that:

The author seems to think all private transactions happen at gunshows

?

[sandnsea]

8. And this is LBN, please leave it here

Most people don't want to go to crazyville for gun news.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. I concur. Leave this idiotic study and it's false conclusions here to be picked apart.

[slackmaster]

31. You jinxed it

Shame on you.

[SteveM]

10. How does this study comport with those which indicate other sources?

I am struck by the photo montage: Turner Diaries, Rebel flag on the Capitol, "assault weapons," etc. Sounds like the UC Davis "researchers" have a bone to pick. Where is the funding for this study coming from? I always have suspicions when a study like this emanates from a health sciences origin (we do remember the CDC fiasco concerning a public health "model" for gun control).

Had a camera been at my local gun show, they would have spotted me legally purchasing two firearms from an "unlicensed vendor."

And how is the "85% of recovered crime guns have gone through at least one private party transaction" linked to "gun shows are the leading source." I could have sworn the leading source were various iron-ore ranges around the world.

[slackmaster]

11. I didn't know you were a criminal, Steve

;-)

[SteveM]

24. Strange things happen when you find yourself retired.

[Euromutt]

37. Yeah, call me cynical

But I can't help feeling that something calling itself the "Violence Prevention Research Program" has an agenda to pursue, and consequently isn't fully proof against allowing bias to guide the research towards predetermined conclusions.

[Euromutt]

38. Oh, it's by Garen Wintemute!

Why didn't anyone say so? Then I'd have known immediately the whole thing was tendentious bullshit.

[slackmaster]

41. Pretty much, and every publication by that group is about firearms, not the real causes of violence

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/publications/

They obviously have an axe to grind.

[Euromutt]

63. It's not what you'd call a group

It's really just Wintemute's personal project; it consists of him and three support personnel.

[iverglas]

82. jezus fucking christ

They obviously have an axe to grind.

Just like those people who study the effects of toxins on mammals ... damn biased so-and-sos!

Anybody who studies anything just has a giant axe to grind. That's it.

[SteveM]

117. Mmm, that doesn't work. You research genuine problems...

Which requires that you establish what the problems is. These "studies" have not done this. They have proclaimed gun shows as a problem, then fill in the blanks.

"Toxins on mammals," yeah, that's a problem. Gun shows? Where is the data?

It should be clear, even to you, that "Windemere" has a problem with gun shows and is throwing stuff at them to see what sticks.

On second thought, maybe he shouldn't be grinding axes considering all the stuff that's sticking to the study.

[iverglas]

47. ah, yes; what would he know?

Only a "professor of epidemiology and an emergency room physician at the University of California, Davis".

So many smarter more impressive people hang out here at the Guns forum.

And of course there are always Eugene Volokh, Don Kates, John Lott ... Mary Rosh ...

:rofl:

[Treo]

49. ER Docs

So Being an ER doc makes him an expert on crime in America?

[iverglas]

50. I dunno

So Being an ER doc makes him an expert on crime in America?

Did somebody say it did?

Right at home here, aren't ya?

[Treo]

53. Right at home here, aren't ya?

Why, yes thank you very much for asking

[X_Digger]

51. I go to a doctor to check my colon, not pack it with more shit. n/t

[SteveM]

118. "Professors" and "physicians" are OK as long as they don't work on my car (nt)

[onehandle]

12. Gun shows also ground zero for domestic terrorists.

[MercutioATC]

16. ...and a gun show once turned me into a newt!

I got better...

[SteveM]

23. And certain truck-rental agencies. (nt)

[jasi2006]

14. This is one of the shames of America. nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. If it were only true.

[SteveM]

25. The shame is that gun show prices aren't much lower than elsewhere (nt)

[proteus_lives]

60. True Dat.

[GreenStormCloud]

119. Here in the DFW area gun show prices tend to be about 20% lower. N/T

[villager]

26. since you posted in the gungeon, the apologists and proliferationists will swarm the thread

with their Lewis Carroll style reasonings that nothing need be done, and all is fine in gun-heavy Wonderland...

[Statistical]

27. You mean provide analysis that shows the "conclusion" is not supported by the facts?

[villager]

33. Like the stat that 85% of guns used in crimes passed through at least one such sale?

It's typical proliferationist cant: Dismiss any study that impinges the ideology that undergirds the gun fetish; cite links to obscure pro-gun sites by way of rebuttal, etc.

All formulaic, all inevitable...

[AtheistCrusader]

35. Here's a clue:

Most private transfers don't occur at gun shows. Don't believe me? Look in your local newspaper's classified ads. FAR more volume than a once-a-month, in a couple places per state gun show.

Clue #2: Most gun shows are swarming with off-duty and retired police officers. Sellers and buyers. Not the sort of environment criminals flock to.

[slackmaster]

40. One private sale? Easy to believe, because most criminals can't pass the background check

So they acquire their firearms from other sources. Any acquisition from anyone other than a dealer is a private transfer. Since a large majority violent crimes are committed by people who already have criminal records, the 85% figure is quite believable.

But concluding that 85% of guns used in crimes were sold at gun shows does not follow from the data and is not supported by other available information.

...cite links to obscure pro-gun sites by way of rebuttal, etc....

Obscure pro-gun sites like the US Department of Justice?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

[Statistical]

43. Like this "gunshow"

1) Villager buys a firearm from a retail store involving background check.
2) Criminal A breaks into Villager's home and steals firearm.
3) Criminal A sells firearm to criminal B (private sale).
4) Criminal B robs someone with firearm.

By the "logic" of the study that is a "gunshow" gun. Despite their being no gunshow and the only private sale was between two criminals neither of which could legally own a firearm.

In related new 100% of people who died were alive prior to dying. "Being alive makes you die. OH NOES!"

[slackmaster]

28. The only thing that needs to be done is to keep known violent criminals incarcerated

Most of us are perfectly capable of owning firearms without misusing them.

[iverglas]

48. yeah, fuck that Constitution thing

Some people support their Bill of Rights ... one part of it ...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. How is incarcerating violent felons for their crimes unconstitutional?

That's the dumbest thing ever posted on DU.

[Tim01]

32. Anti-2nd amendment radicals are a small, loud group.

The fact is there are lots more liberals.

[kpete]

29. worse

then the dungeon,
never been HERE before,
kpete

[X_Digger]

34. Holy Irresponsible Headlines, Batman!

The report doesn't match the study and the study doesn't back up the assertion with data, either.

Bad reporting + bad study + hyperbolic headline = fail!

[Treo]

36. How does one respond to something so stupid? NT

[JonQ]

52. A study shows that

many guns are purchased from private vendors at gun shows (and they document that thoroughly, no problems so far).

They then use the stat that many guns used in crimes are purchased or acquired from private vendors. If true then no problem.

Then they make the huge leap to assume that the only private vendors in existence are the ones at gun shows. Big problem.

If they hadn't come to the "right" conclusion, namely that guns = evil then this study would have been put up only as an example on how not to put together such a report.



My new study: Fact 1) most cocaine is grown in south/middle america.

Fact 2) Most south/middle americans speak spanish.

Conclusion: Spanish causes cocaine. If we were to prevent people from learning that language we could win the war on drugs.

[gorfle]

54. Let's look at this article.

A new report from UC Davis researchers finds that American gun shows are the leading source of guns used in crimes, not just in the United States, but Mexico and Canada as well.

But this is not what is claimed at all:

The report shows the two-thirds of gun sales at gun shows are through licensed vendors. The others are sold through unlicensed vendors or private gun show attendees, who do not have to do background checks or file any paperwork. The study state that 85% of recovered crime guns have gone through at least one private party transaction following their initial sale by a licensed retailer.

Just because 85% of recovered crime guns have gone through a private transaction does not mean that that private transaction happened at a gun show.

"Illegal transactions were often conducted entirely out in the open," said Garen Wintemute, professor of emergency medicine at UC Davis School of Medicine and a leading researcher on firearm violence who authored the report. "The sense of impunity among sellers and purchasers in these cases was remarkable."

How did he know they were illegal transactions?

"Undocumented private party gun sale transactions account for as many as 40 percent of all gun sales," said Wintemute. "They are quick and convenient, and their anonymity attracts those who put privacy at a premium. These same attributes make private-party gun sales a principal option for a felon or other prohibited person."

Well holy fucking shit, imagine the audacity of people who put their privacy at a premium!

I have no doubt that private party gun sales account for many gun sales. Open up your town's local penny saver and you will find many firearms available for sale.


"We also need to update existing laws so that all private-party gun sales, not just those at gun shows, are subject to the same safeguards now in place for gun purchases from licensed dealers."

As long as they can provide for anonymous firearm ownership, I'm all for it. Otherwise, forget it.

[iverglas]

55. "holy fucking shit, imagine the audacity of people" who don't read

what they're talking about.

Any other time, it would be WHINE WHINE WHINE about the inaccurate media.

This time, it's LET'S PICK THE MEDIA REPORT APART and pretend we've accomplished something.


I've only read the executive summary of the report so far, but it appears to be more than a single person in this thread has done.


http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/pdf/IGS/IGSexecsummweb.pdf

Preliminary Inferences

Though the relationships between gun shows, gun commerce generally, and gun violence are complex, the available evidence suggests the following:

The proportion of all gun sales nationwide that occur at gun shows is relatively small;

Most sales at gun shows involve licensed retailers;

Private party sales at gun shows account for a relatively small percentage of gun sales in the United States;

Licenced retailers are probably the primary source of crime guns acquired at gun shows.

I've just had to type that out because it won't copy, and I couldn't find an html version, so that's all you get.

Feel free to read it and more for yourselves, and to stop embarrassing yourselves by yammering about something you haven't even bloody read.


edit to add -- just for example:

How did he know they were illegal transactions?

Are straw purchases illegal? If someone is obviously buying a firearm for someone else, is that legal?

Was that a rhetorical question, amounting to "I can't be bothered reading what I'm talking about, so I'll just hope somebody swallows my baseless insinuation and nods"?

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. I read chapter 3: "Buying and Selling". Dr. Wintermute needs to get a lawyer.

I expect Dr. Wintermute will shortly be getting a subpoena from the Feds.

As he claims to have witnessed and/or recorded several felonies being committed and didn't report them.

That ought to be interesting. Perhaps some kind soul will file a FOIA request so we can *all* see his raw data!

[iverglas]

65. maybe you can get a lawyer

to give you one of those half-hour free consults like we have up here, and explain how

I expect Dr. Wintermute will shortly be getting a subpoena from the Feds.
As he claims to have witnessed and/or recorded several felonies being committed and didn't report them.
... Perhaps some kind soul will file a FOIA request so we can *all* see his raw data!

you're spouting nonsense.

If you witness a mugging and don't report it, will you get a subpoena? What proceedings will this subpoena be in relation to?

If I file an FOIA request, can I see your bank statements?

[paulsby]

99. misprision of a felony is not illegal in most jurisdictions hth

not that i agree he DID witness (necessarily) ILLEGAL transactions.

the VAST majority of private ones (gun show or not) are legal

[Treo]

58. If someone is obviously buying a firearm for someone else, is that legal?

Yes it is it's called buying a firearm as a gift. My wife has bought two of them for me. Well, to be fair she bought me one and she bought herself one and didn't like it so I took it.
EDIT: Typo

[iverglas]

66. if someone behaves like a disingenuous jerk

is he engaging in civil discourse?

[Treo]

68. That's A Question That Only You Can Answer Dear NT

[iverglas]

70. it was a rhetorical question

[friendly_iconoclast]

61. Unfortunately for Wintermute, I *did* read it- it's full of inaccuracies

My advice is to download it quickly before it gets pulled for the various howlers contained within

Chapter 3, for example has people buying and selling 'assault rifles' which - aren't.

And photos of guns described as 'assault rifles' which -also aren't

But "what would he know?", He's an epidemiologist and an MD- he can't be expected to
be an expert on guns, now can he?


Guess I'll go to the next local gunshow and get advice on triage and the transmission
of arboviruses during warm weather...

[iverglas]

67. you people and your "assault rifle" meme

You're so amusing.

If I send you a copy, will you autograph it?



The Adherents of the Repeated Meme

[raimius]

71. Mean...not meme

...but I did laugh at the Doctor Who reference!
Good one.

[iverglas]

72. well

Somebody finally got it. ;)

(The absence of curiosity I observe daily on the net ...)


But hm, "mean"?

[friendly_iconoclast]

73. Are you saying fact checking is optional if your heart is in the right place?

Wintermute's statements were 'fake but accurate'?

You're right about the meme. I propose a new meme- TNAMG

"That's Not A Machine Gun"

By the way, what's the margin of error on these "scientific" papers before they are considered inaccurate?

One per chapter? A certain percentage?

[iverglas]

74. I'm saying that no normal people

give a shit about your terminological diversionary grooming.

[friendly_iconoclast]

75. Hope he isn't making the same error between H1N1 and regular flu

Recording and reporting fact is very important for an epidemiologist and emergency MD, considering the possibility
of a pandemic. You're the one who touted his credentials in an earlier thread, remember?


Still maintain the accuracy (or lack thereof) of what he publicly reports is trivial?

[friendly_iconoclast]

76. Pointing out error is 'diversionary'? Ohhh-kay...

I understand your point of view. Wouldn't want the punters questioning the faith-promoting rumors they are given.
That might lead them to question other things they've been told. Can't have that, now can we?

What temerity, expecting accuracy of a guy who works in (and is published by) a university teaching hospital.
Whose job depends on accurate reporting of what he sees.

Answer me this:

Would you be so cavalier about the accuracy of what Wintermute presents as fact if this were his day job
and bungled a diagnosis of communicable disease?

Or would that also be diversionary?

[gorfle]

64. I have not read the actual report yet

I have not yet read the actual report yet.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

84. So you would agree the news story is ridiculously inaccurate. That's good to see.

[krispos42]

59. A picture is worth a thousand words

[Bushido1979]

78. 3rd_Grade_Propaganda

Here is a link to a story worth noting with at least a little more balanced perspective:

We need to start showing up at these events and getting a rational response communicated to the public regarding this propaganda (like Jesse Bengson did in the following link):


http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-tv-gunshowsales,0,4377474.story

[X_Digger]

79. Nice find..

Another UC Davis researcher who attended the press conference hoping to see scientific data linking gun show sales and crime was disappointed.

"None of that was presented," said Jesse Bengson.

Instead, he said he saw anecdotal inferences and personal opinion. He said you can't condemn flea markets for bad things that happen in them and that individuals are responsible for how guns are used.

Wintemute conceded that the data isn't there.

"It'sjust as a matter of logic that private party sales are more likely to result in criminal use of firearms, but it's an inference at this point," he said. \

But Wintemute defended his report saying it was not meant to be a scientific study. Instead, he said he wanted people to see what happens at gun shows to encourage a closer examination of gun policy.

The emergency room doctor is well known for is articles on guns and their effects on violent deaths and injuries. He said the type of weapon used in violent incidents matters."

[iverglas]

83. you disagree???

"It'sjust as a matter of logic that private party sales are more likely to result in criminal use of firearms, but it's an inference at this point," he said.

Hmm. Those "law-abiding gun owners" may acquire their firearms from licensed dealers.

The criminals can't.

Hmm. Now, how do criminals get their guns? Private party sales, maybe? Would that not kinda automatically mean that a larger proportion of private party sales than of licensed dealer sales is to criminals?

Can't see any way around that one, myself.

Given as how guns don't really drop like lawn darts from the sky.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

87. I don't disaggree.

But I certainly don't think that there is evidence enough to enact legislation against private sales. Guns are things... inanimate objects... private property. I would expect substantial evidence before enacting legislation to limit the sale of ones private property. This report offers no such evidence and is based on speculation, inferences, and personal antigun opinions.

[iverglas]

90. wtf??

But I certainly don't think that there is evidence enough to enact legislation against private sales.

So you disagree with thin air? Thin air thick with straw, that is.

No one has proposed enacting legislation against private sales.


I would expect substantial evidence before enacting legislation to limit the sale of ones private property.

Firearms dealers are subject to those limits now. Hamburger dealers are not. Huh.

[X_Digger]

96. Did you read the article?

No one has proposed enacting legislation against private sales.

Wintemute also says more needs to be done to prevent these unregulated and illegal gun sales at gun shows.

"Law enforcement needs to have an expanded, proactive program at gun shows to prevent the illegal sale of guns," said Wintemute. "We also need to update existing laws so that all private-party gun sales, not just those at gun shows, are subject to the same safeguards now in place for gun purchases from licensed dealers."

Off your game today?

[iverglas]

103. please may I borrow you funny specs?

article:

Wintemute also says more needs to be done to prevent these unregulated and illegal gun sales at gun shows.

"Law enforcement needs to have an expanded, proactive program at gun shows to prevent the illegal sale of guns," said Wintemute. "We also need to update existing laws so that all private-party gun sales, not just those at gun shows, are subject to the same safeguards now in place for gun purchases from licensed dealers."

what I replied to:

But I certainly don't think that there is evidence enough to enact legislation against private sales.

You seem to be asserting that there is something in the quotation from the article that supports a claim that someone is seeking to "enact legislation against private sales".

Perhaps you could point it out, maybe in red letters? I seem to be missing it.

Firearms transfers by licensed dealers are subject to the purchaser passing a background check.

Are firearms transfers by licensed dealers banned?

[X_Digger]

120. No funny glasses required.. here, in bold..

"We also need to update existing laws so that all private-party gun sales, not just those at gun shows, are subject to the same safeguards now in place for gun purchases from licensed dealers."

To me, that reads as seeking to "enact legislation against private sales".

[JonQ]

88. That's a nice cop out

Present it as a scientific study until someone calls you out on that, then step back and say woah, we were just pointing this stuff out, it wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

Typically grabbers.

[Euromutt]

110. And give it a few more months

And it'll be back to being presented as a scientific study again, and anti-gunners will cite it as evidence of the evil of gun shows and transfers between private parties.

[friendly_iconoclast]

115. Perhaps someone at UC Davis noted the rather unscientific nature of this

and objected to it, as it was published under their imprimatur.

No worries, when it is inevitably touted again as a 'scientific survey', we can refer to this thread....

[iverglas]

81. No.1 with a FoxNews link!

You may have won some sort of prize.

Another UC Davis researcher who attended the press conference hoping to see scientific data linking gun show sales and crime was disappointed.

"None of that was presented," said Jesse Bengson.

Instead, he said he saw anecdotal inferences and personal opinion. He said you can't condemn flea markets for bad things that happen in them and that individuals are responsible for how guns are used.

Well, what a tasty and wholly irrelevant opinion that was!

Oooh, a grad student in nothing relevant at all:

http://mindbrain.ucdavis.edu/people/jjbengso

But Wintemute defended his report saying it was not meant to be a scientific study. Instead, he said he wanted people to see what happens at gun shows to encourage a closer examination of gun policy.

Just love that loaded language. First he's "admitting" something he's never denied, now he's "defending" his report againt completely improper allegations.

It ain't his fault how the media portray it - and he isn't answerable for anyone else's imaginations about what the report is, or required to "admit" that it isn't that, or "defend" it against claims or insinuations that it is.


Anybody read the report yet?

[Bushido1979]

92. considering irrelevant fields of study:

How is a medical doctor qualified to promote legal and socio-economic policy that concerns HUMAN BEHAVIOR (the grad student's field of SCIENTIFIC STUDY)?



It is hard to believe you would consider the following and OPINION:

"Instead, he said he saw anecdotal inferences and personal opinion. He said you can't condemn flea markets for bad things that happen in them and that individuals are responsible for how guns are used."


Since it is a simple fact; one the Garen conceded.

I empathize with the anti-gun perspective. As an adolescent I had a class-mate who was shot. I initially and reflexively blamed the gun (as a result of an emotional reaction). I realized, as I grew older however, that it is ridiculous to blame an object for behavior. Violence is a problem that is rooted in deeper systemic and socio-economic issues, not caused by GUNS themselves.

[iverglas]

104. lalala

It is hard to believe you would consider the following and OPINION:

Huh. I guess I really should have said that somebody mouthing the gun militant line "individuals are responsible for how guns are used" was spouting meaningless noise, rather than irrelevant opinion.


I empathize with the anti-gun perspective.

Well good on ya. If I see it hanging around somewhere, I'll tell it to hunt you up for its daily dose of empathy.


As an adolescent I had a class-mate who was shot. I initially and reflexively blamed the gun

Kind of a delusional adolescent, were you?


I realized, as I grew older however, that it is ridiculous to blame an object for behavior.

Phew. That's a relief. Otherwise, I'd be chatting with a person suffering from a psychosis, and I might rather not.

[friendly_iconoclast]

107. So, when are you giving up your computer, CD/DVD burner, and DVR?

After all, they just make too easy for a 'law abiding' computer owner like yourself to become a video pirate.

Ditto for the broadband Net connection and hi-cap hard drive. Who knows when you'll flip out and start hosting
violent porn or the wit and wisdom of Ernest Zundel? You simply shouldn't have the ability to do these things at all!

Huh. I guess I really should have said that somebody mouthing the gun militant line "individuals are responsible for how guns are used" was spouting meaningless noise, rather than irrelevant opinion.

It's not your fault you are being tempted. It's on the head of those irresponsible assholes at Bell, Rogers, Emachines,
Apple, Dell, Phillips, et al that people do bad deeds with the stuff they make and supply.


You're giving the old Disney/Universal line in the "Betamax Case" - having the ability to do something is the same as doing it, so you shouldn't have the ability:

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/B/htmlB/betamaxcase/betamaxcase.htm

BETAMAX CASE

U.S. Legal Decision

Universal City Studios, Inc. et al. v. Sony Corporation of America Inc. et al., commonly known as the Betamax case, was the first concerted legal response of the American film industry to the home video revolution. After nearly a decade of announcements and false starts by one American company or another, Sony, the Japanese electronics manufacturing giant, introduced its Betamax video tape recorder to the U.S. consumer market in early 1976 at an affordable price. In its marketing strategy Sony promoted the machine's ability to "time shift" programming--that is, to record a television program off the air even while watching another show on a different channel.

The plaintiffs, Universal and Walt Disney Productions on behalf of the Hollywood majors, charged that the ability of the Betamax to copy programming off air was an infringement of copyright and sought to halt the sale of the machines.
The studios were ostensibly trying to protect film and television producers from the economic consequences of unauthorized mass duplication and distribution. However, Universal might have also wanted to prevent Betamax from capturing a significant segment of the fledgling home video market before its parent company, MCA, could introduce its DiscoVision laserdisc system, which was to scheduled for test marketing in the fall of 1977.....


....The Betamax case went all the way to the Supreme Court, which reversed the appeals court decision on 17 January 1984.....

FURTHER READING

Harris, Paul. "Supreme Court O.K.'s Home Taping: Approve 'Time Shifting' for Personal Use." Variety (Los Angeles), 18 June 1984.

[iverglas]

111. if your post related to a single thing in my post

I wouldn't think you were just behaving like an obsessed dimwit.

[friendly_iconoclast]

112. Just pointing out your special pleading about guns, my dear iverglas

Are there any other items with a potential use in crime you'd like to see severely limited, or done away with?

or just teh scary gunz in the hands in the hands of brutish and primitive Yanks?

[iverglas]

113. if your post related to a single thing in my post

I wouldn't think you were just behaving like an obsessed and very disingenuous dimwit.

[Bushido1979]

114. easy to ignore iverglas now

I know when some-one is on the losing end of a debate: when they can only resort to insults and sarcasm.

[slackmaster]

86. Wow, something from a Fox outlet that actually is fair and balanced

Thanks for posting that, and welcome to DU.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

85. The proportion of all gun sales nationwide that occur at gun shows is relatively small.

That's from the study.

[JonQ]

89. I think we should all step back for a moment and consider the absurdity of this study

they are proposing banning a legal item, sold to law abiding citizens, on the premise that some may turn around and sell it to someone else, who then sells it to someone else and so on until eventually it winds up in the hands of a criminal.

Imagine applying that logic to any other item: sorry, no pain meds for you, you might sell them and we don't want to promote illegal drug use. You can't buy a new car sir, there's a chance you'll sell it at some point and the new owner may prove to be a drunk driver, who may then kill someone.

Absurd. They only get away with this "logic" and such an obscenely butchered study because they are politically acceptable to some people.

[iverglas]

91. we don't need to go very far to see the untruth in your post

they are proposing banning a legal item

There it be.

[JonQ]

93. I'm sorry that you are having difficulty seeing the rather obvious

implications they are making with this study.

I really am.

But unfortunately I can't help you.

[LAGC]

94. Should we ban all private-party sales?

That's the real argument at hand here. Even if we were to "close the gun-show loophole" you'd still have all those guns listed in the Classifieds and what not, with no background check performed during the transaction. So criminals would still easily be able to obtain guns that way. No, I think banning private-party sales at gun shows is only a "means to an end" of banning all private-party sales, so that every transaction can be RECORDED for posterity, so that when the day comes when entire classes of guns are to be banned, the authorities know just where to look for the offending items. Sounds like a noble goal if what you are after is the creation of a POLICE STATE!

[JonQ]

95. Sadly that is what they are after

The gun grabber philosophy is built on a totalitarian mindset.

They will claim they are only working for the common good, but everything they propose leads to fewer rights for individuals and more power for the police.

Freedom is something to be doled out, not something inherent. And more of it leads to more tragedy.

[iverglas]

105. what a strange question

Did something in particular bring it to mind here?


Even if we were to "close the gun-show loophole" you'd still have all those guns listed in the Classifieds and what not, with no background check performed during the transaction.

Hmm. I wonder whether there might be a solution to this problem ... hmmmmmm ...


No, I think banning private-party sales at gun shows is only a "means to an end" of banning all private-party sales, so that every transaction can be RECORDED for posterity, so that when the day comes when entire classes of guns are to be banned, the authorities know just where to look for the offending items. Sounds like a noble goal if what you are after is the creation of a POLICE STATE!

Well, if I told you what I think -- either of the only two available options that I can see -- I'd be breaking some rules, so I'd better just let you look at your words and see whether you can guess.

[PavePusher]

100. I'm going to the gun show here in Tucson...

this weekend. I'm specificaly looking to buy full-auto conversion kits, RPG's, deadly 4-mile sniper rifles, armor piercing/heat seeking ammo, "cop-killer" bullets and maybe even "a shoulder thing that goes up", all without background checks or other legal restrictions. Then I'm gonna take it all down to Mexico and sell it to drug cartels at a 200% mark-up, cause it's all stuff they can't get on the free market.

I'll let you know how it went tomorrow night.

Uh... don't wait up...

Do I have to? Oh, O.K....

:sarcasm:

[Tejas]

102. researchers rec'd $175,000 from the Joyce Foundation.

"We need some $, what're we gonna do?"

"Hey, I see where the Brady Bunch gets a million bucks from the Joyce Foundation for BS, let's get some of that action!"

"Kewl!"

[iverglas]

106. I just love a little anti-intellectualism

with my evening diet coke. It's so ... liberal. And progressive. And d/Democratic!!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

108. After all money never affects research. The drug companies are great examples.

[friendly_iconoclast]

109. A paid shill is a paid shill -unless you agree with them

*Then* they become a 'compensated researcher'.