Open Carry Good Idea Or Not?

[Treo]

I OC occasionally most people don’t even notice (unless I wear my Gold Anodized DE:evilgrin:) but I can see it going both ways. Several years ago you could legally open carry in city government buildings until a guy started showing up at city council meetings W/ a canary yellow shot gun W/ a happy face on it (the guy said the happy face made the shot gun more “user friendly”). It didn’t take two weeks and the city council banned OC in city buildings

From the Springs Gazette
Open carry is legal in Colorado, except where specifically banned. Locally, open carry was the subject du jour in 2003 when a man began carrying a shotgun with him as he went about his business. When his business included attending City Council meetings, council members took notice and banned open-carry in city-owned buildings. El Paso County has a similar law. Other than government buildings, including public schools and post offices, carrying firearms openly is legal most places in the Pikes Peak region
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum13/12044.html

So I’m curious do you think OC helps or hurts the cause of RKBA? Should those who OC change a legal behavior that doesn’t harm other people just because some others find it offensive? Should OC be banned?

[billyoc]

1. Good idea?

Or the BEST idea...

:evilgrin:

[Oregone]

2. Good idea.

You know what douchebags to ignore at parties. Seriously. If you are so obsessed about that shit, you probably aren't the coolest cat in the room.

My guns are for shooting. Not for fashion.

[TheWraith]

3. I wouldn't do it, but I don't approve of banning it either.

I simply wouldn't consider it, since it seems like it would attract too much of the wrong kind of attention from everybody else: cops, criminals, and civilians.

Disclaimer: I don't own a pistol, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

[Treo]

4. You'd be surprised

People are so wrapped up in their own little world that they hardly notice you. I've had one person give me the stink eye and I was waiting in line at an ATM so I can kinda see his point

[Piwi2009]

46. We were one of the most anti Obama, right wing states and

we don't have open carry here, just concealed carry. I don't think it's opposed, so much as it's just not a good idea. Why would you show everyone you have a gun and give up the element of surprise, which is the real strength in a fight.

[Euromutt]

5. I'll second that

I'm actually moderately supportive of the OC movement, though it's not something I feel the urge to do myself. Maybe if I lived in a more rural area, but I live in the urbanized part of King County, WA.

I don't have a lot of time for the "tactical advantages of concealed vs. open carry" debates which have become as commonplace (and interminable) on gun fora as "9x19mm vs. .45 ACP" and "AR vs. AK." To my mind, both modes of carry serve slightly different purposes, and you can't judge either by the objectives of the other. Like so many matters gun-related, it's largely a matter of personal preference; whatever works for you is what's best for you.

[old mark]

6. I always carry concealed - I know a lot of people who support OC,

but it's not for me.

But you can certainly do what you want.

mark

[MaineMan2]

7. concealed

When we carry concealed, if a situation does arise, we should be one step ahead of the intruder...however, if with OC the situation might not have happened to begin with. It's a tough call, but I prefer concealed carry.

[Tim01]

8. I used to be against it.

But I have seen no evidence to support the tactical advantage argument. I now think the tactical advantage argument is one of those things that seem to make sense, but don't hold water in practice. Recently in Richmond Va a guy open carrying a Colt six shooter got into it with a robber at a convenience store, and won. Nobody even noticed he had that big hog leg strapped on his hip before the shooting began. Not even the robber.

And I think open carry is a very good thing if the person doing it can remain very calm and level even in the face of hostile criticism. If a person is open carrying I want everybody to get the idea that people who carry guns are very mild and easy going. The hostile "from my cold dead hands" radical type mentality does not help our cause.

[Treo]

9. One Of The Things That Really Impresses Me

About D/U is that this forum is actually much more libertarian on this issue than most of the "conservative" gun forums (I.E. THR/TFL) They tend to talk a good game but when it comes down to it they're (IMO) firmly on the side of No OC, Licensing for ALL gun owners and registration.
Interesting

[spin]

12. Interesting, I rarely visit those sites...

occasionally a Google search will land me on one, but I'm usually searching for info on firearms not firearm policy.

So you're saying that many on this DU forum are more pro-gun than those on the pro-gun sites? Wow, I'm proud of us.

[SteveM]

16. I think DU is not so much libertarian on guns as traditionally liberal...

Before the 1968 Democratic Party Platform, there was NOTHING in previous platforms addressing firearms and gun-control. Our leaders (JFK, LBJ, FDR -- and Eleanor --) spoke about guns only in the context of their full support of the Second Amendment. Somewhere along the line, the gun-controllers pasted together a "movement" and slapped the label "progressive" on it. Through the efforts of the Brady Bunch, the VPC and others, the Democrats are regularly bludgeoned at the polls over this issue; and as policy, gun-control has had no effect on the problems purported to be solved by this policy.

Frankly, I think gun-control has from the beginning been about culture war. First, to disarm blacks (as a result of the many ghetto riots of the 60s), then to create a "legitimate" channel to focus hatred upon "white" men, especially white Southern men (the controllers stand history on its head and claim -- you'll see it in the Gungeon threads -- pro-gun laws are somehow used to keep blacks and women in their places; the "lefty" equivalent of a tea-bagger's logic).

Anyway, welcome to the deepest and darkest of Gungeons.

[iverglas]

25. and of course that is all utter bullshit

The agenda of the gun militants who populate the Guns forum is neither "liberal" in any modern sense nor "libertarian" in any honest sense.

It is pure right-wing crap.

Firearms control is about the same thing that any other apect of "liberal" (in the USAmerican sense) / progressive / democratic social policy is about.

The public interest. Or, as your founders and framers called it: the general welfare.

The "culture war" is the war being waged by the gun militants and all of their right-wing fellow travellers in their various brigades -- the anti-choice, the "free speech" provocateurs, etc. -- against any vulnerable group that gets uppity.

[raimius]

31. It is extremely libertarian

The whole concept is to let people do as they want, unless it harms another.
Non-aggressive carry of firearms follows that idea.

This is directly from the Libertarian Party's website:
"Let us put the responsibility where it belongs, on the owner and user of the gun. If he or she acts responsibly, without attacking others or causing injury negligently, no crime or harm has been done. Leave them in peace. But, if a person commits a crime with a gun, then impose the severest penalties for the injuries done to the victim. Similarly, hold the negligent gun user fully liable for all harm his negligence does to others."

[iverglas]

19. oh, what nonsense

The High Road in favour of licensing/registration.

Sing us a new one.

This forum is full of links to ugly right-wing outfits like Ohio Open Carry and its other state siblings.

Do you actually think anybody believes such shit?

The denizens of this forum are just as right-wing on such issues as the right wing anywhere is.

[Treo]

20. Do you eat W/ that mouth?

I've seen links here to sights purporting to show how Obama is part of the NWO does that mean DU supports that or that the server sold advertising space?
ETA
For your enjoyment

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=456314


Here’s one where they’re arguing about how evil carrying at a town hall is
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=467406

Arguing OC
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5745476#post5745476

[iverglas]

22. what the fuck are you on about?

I've seen links here to sights purporting to show how Obama is part of the NWO does that mean DU supports that or that the server sold advertising space?

This is somehow remotely relevant to what I said? -- that people in this forum link to places like Ohio Open Carry, an ugly right-wing bunch of thugs, all the time?

You're mistaken if you think I'm clicking on a THR link. In any event, I specifically challenged your claim that THR (its administration or its usual gang of users) support licensing/registration.


... Crap, now my head hurts. I found google's cached version of that first thread, and encountered a bunch of uneducated morons debating the nature of "rights". No idea what you thought that might prove, but trust me, it didn't.

[Treo]

23. Does your mom know you talk like that? NT

[iverglas]

24. how about: if you have nothing meaningful to say

you consider shutting the fuck up?

Not that I'm telling you to do any such thing. I'm suggesting that you consider the option.

[Treo]

26. If we only posted when we had something meaningful to say

You'd never post again.
BTW you never did answer the OP

[iverglas]

27. oh, har har

Open Carry Good Idea Or Not?

Good idea -- if you're a thug whose intent is to intimidate the public in general and any individuals in your immediate vicinity in particular.

There ya go.

[Treo]

28. Don't you know hate is not a family value NT

[Tim01]

29. What is with all the cursing? Try to chill out, no need to be so insulting. nt

[Hoopla Phil]

10. As a CHL holder in the VERY hot state of Texas. I'd love the option of O.C. as

it would solve a number of "issues" with carrying in the middle of summer. In 95 I went out and bought an all stainless steel 1911 (NOT cheep) just for carry duty because of the perspiration issue.

[slackmaster]

11. I think the main effect is to scare people, so it's not a good idea in urban and suburban areas

Out in the sticks, no problem.

[PavePusher]

37. I think everyone in cities should be forced to turn in all their books and magazines...

And denied permission to carry any around with them. After all, you've got perfectly good libraries within easy travel distance. You can even call ahead and reserve books. You certainly don't need them under your arm. Heck, have you SEEN the garbage some people read? Scary, smutty, fantastical, subversive and plain old bad for you, most of it. Carrying books makes them too easy for criminals to steal, and most people can't afford to properly secure them at home. Dangerous, I say. We don't need to spread ideas so freely, people might start getting used to free thought.

Besides, Civil Rights should be based on need and geography, right?

[spin]

51. On top of that a tightly wrapped magazine is a hell of a weapon...

you can stab and strike and do a lot a damage with one.

The very liberal cites should outlaw the carry of wrapped magazines and newspapers and study metal pens such as:


Benchmade Tactical Pen Series Charcoal Anodized Body, Blue Ink
Part Number: BM11001

This is a full size, lightweight pen from Benchmade. It is built for work in addition to being a very good writing instrument. This pen features a CNC machined 6061 T-6 aluminum body and has a pull-off cap and an aggressively pointed end so it can do some real work. Heavy duty pocket clip.
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=BM11001

[PavePusher]

52. I forgot to mention that...

Thanks for filling in the gap there.

And ooooo, I want the shiney....

[Statistical]

13. I am pro-choice (Open Carry, Conceal Carry, No Carry = individual choice) n/t

[raimius]

32. Agreed!

As long as you handle the firearm safely and don't commit crimes or threaten people (which is usually a crime anyway), I don't have a problem with you carrying a firearm.
*I would, of course, reserve the right to ask you to leave my property, if I thought you were acting dangerously/stupidly.

[Piwi2009]

47. I wish women would O.C. at the abortion clinics

LOL I think that would throw the fear into the prolifers : "We're Pro Choice and we SHOOT!"

[Scout]

48. that is the LAST thing a woman should do if she has to run the

gauntlet of those shitstains and asswipes that "sidewalk counsel" at the clinic.

you've apparently never been a clinic escort? or am i mistaken?

[Euromutt]

50. That's an interesting idea...

A friend of my wife's volunteered as a clinic escort for a while. It's something I wouldn't mind doing myself, except I suspect I'd be too hot-headed for the job; escorts are supposed to avoid confrontation and not provide propaganda fodder for the anti-choicers by behaving aggressively.

But when you're not being confrontational, but you are wearing a large caliber handgun in a retention holster, well, most anti-choicers are also pro-gun, so they can hardly complain now, can they?

[GreenStormCloud]

14. I asked my wife what she thought.

She is firmly for OC, and if it were legal in Texas would OC instead of CC. Her reasoning is that it is an advertisement that says to human pretators, "Don't mess with me." For a mugger, an assault upon a known armed person is a very high risk attack. If for any reason the attack goes wrong, the mugger could end up dead.

However, she feels that a person who OCs should meet the same requirements as CC with regard to being licensed. She definately believes that not just anybody should be allowed to strap on a gun, OC or CC.

I am modestly in favor of OC, although I would still CC. OC would give protection if the gun were accidently revealed, although with my CC placement and accidental revelation is very unlikely.

OC seems to get people nervous. But then again, if OC became common, it would no longer be a big deal.

[Statistical]

15. OC is a good backup for CC.

OC would give protection if the gun were accidently revealed, although with my CC placement and accidental revelation is very unlikely.

I like this fact. Some states consider accidentally revealing a concealed firearm to be brandishing. VA does not because OC is legal. The "VA tuck" is when you tuck your shirt behind the firearm to reveal it. CC is illegal in restaurant w/ alcohol but OC is not.

OC seems to get people nervous. But then again, if OC became common, it would no longer be a big deal.

Honest going about normal day's business (I wouldn't recommend OC at political event or around media) 99.9% of people never notice. We are socially conditioned to not stare at someones waist/groin. Plus the way our brains work is we routinely "hide" information that isn't relevant to avoid sensory overload. Lots of people have stuff on their belt (PDA, ipod, mp3 players, cellphones, etc). For most people it is "hidden in plain sight".

I normally CC but sometimes in the summer it is difficult to conceal carry well. From past experience (single incident in 10 years) a poorly concealed weapon is more likely to create a hysterical reaction then a weapon in plain sight.

[Israfel4]

17. Can't open carry where I live.

But would like to since our state only has 2 types of weather: Hot and Hotter :rofl:

[PavePusher]

18. I O.C. nearly everywhere.

I currently live in Tucson, but travel to Utah, Vermont and New Hampshire. I have never had a disparaging comment.

And it's way more comfortable to O.C. when it's 100-and-frikken-burned-to-death in August in Tucson or Pheonix.

Of course, it's easier to C.C. when walking to the bookstore in Salt Lake in January.

[east texas lib]

21. I prsonally would not carry openly...

But opinions vary.:o

[GreenStormCloud]

30. On further reflection...

There are several states that have legal OC. It does not seem to be a problem for those states, therefore I support OC.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. Bad idea in the cities.

For a few reasons.

1. You are designated target #1 if actual 'bad guys' appear and begin shooting. You have given away initiative by announcing to everyone in the loudest possible terms, that you are armed.

2. You are now a spokesman for firearm owners everywhere, because your behavior will be held to a higher level of scrutiny than joe schmoe on the street. Try not to be a dick. If you are, you will be held up as an example why legal open carry should be stripped away via new law or initiative.

3. You are now exposed to the same grappling dangers uniformed police officers face. Meaning, someone pretending to be nice and friendly can get within grabbing distance of your firearm without any hostile pretense. You might have to walk by that person. That person might be next to you in line. Again, you have surrendered initiative. Many uniformed police officers are killed with their own service weapons for this reason.


Out-of-doors, in the woods, only #2 applies. Having a weapon 'unlimbered' and easily accessible is great for protecting yourself from aggressive wildlife, which won't be attempting to grapple for your weapon, and will not select you as a primary threat based on your possession of a weapon.

[Treo]

34. Common Argument

1. You are designated target #1 if actual 'bad guys' appear and begin shooting.

I hear this one a lot, I haven't seen any evidence though there was actually a recent case where a robber tried to rob a store and an OCr W/ a Colt's SAA took him out. The BG apparently didn't realize the guy was armed until he started shooting.

2. You are now a spokesman for firearm owners everywhere, because your behavior will be held to a higher level of scrutiny than joe schmoe on the street. Try not to be a dick. If you are, you will be held up as an example why legal open carry should be stripped away via new law or initiative.

100% true

3. You are now exposed to the same grappling dangers uniformed police officers face. Meaning, someone pretending to be nice and friendly can get within grabbing distance of your firearm without any hostile pretense. You might have to walk by that person. That person might be next to you in line. Again, you have surrendered initiative. Many uniformed police officers are killed with their own service weapons for this reason.

Meh. maybe, maybe not I tend to be hyper vigilant anyway and I freak a little if ANYone I don't know gets W/ 3-4 feet. I'm not discounting the risk but at the times I OC I deem that the benefits outweigh the risks.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. True, but something that meaningful statistics are not kept on.

Bad guys may see the weapon and move on. Bad guys may not see the weapon at all and proceed 'normally'. Really isn't a clearinghouse of data we can examine on it. We can play if I were a criminal and reason out who we might take out and why, in such a situation, but criminals are not necessarily rational, so it's a pointless exercise.

But on the vigilance, I agree, I value my 'personal space' like no other, and am extremely vigilant. BUT, there are situations where, in the city, you will come into close proximity or even contact with other people. Certainly well within the 21-foot 'tuller drill' range. You will be at a disadvantage if someone close (arms reach) grabs for your gun. Your best hope might be to prevent them from getting it out of the holster at that point, but that means you are also denied the intended purpose of the weapon.

[PavePusher]

36. Retention holster.

I like the Serpa's myself.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. But that still means you cannot use the weapon for it's intended purpose.

That being, protecting yourself. Best case scenario, the weapon is still locked safely in it's holster, and you have to use your hands (or a backup gun if you carry one) to defend yourself.

[Statistical]

41. There a courses that deal specifically with close quarters combat with pistols.

I recommend them even for conceal carry. At point blank range a criminal may see your move to draw and attempt to prevent you from drawing a concealed firearm or gain access to the weapon.

The goal in situation like that is not to win the battle by hand to hand but rather create a gap (both in space and time) to draw and fire repeatedly.

Even a situation where you WILL LOSE the hand to hand fight given enough time you can gain a temporary advantage which you exploit to draw and delivery lethal force.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. Agreed.

However, the number of criminals that might recognize an attempt to draw from concealment and know what to do about it is a small percentage of the number that can easily see a weapon slung on your hip, and might grab at it.

CQB training is good stuff, I wish more people who carry would take it. Could make all the difference between a good day, and a tragedy.

[raimius]

49. Yes, and very easily at that.

Retention holsters are becomming standard for MIL/LEO, and a few civilians.
A level 2 Serpa holster does not take any longer to draw from. You simply disengage the retention button with your index finger (which should then wind up along the slide of any semi-auto). I know guys who run timed competitions with retention holsters and they are not slowed by a serpa.

Most of the Safariland holsters have a backstrap. All it requires the user to do is rotate it out of the way with their thumb, as they grasp the pistol.
Thumbbreak holsters are pretty similar, except the user hits the snap to release the backstrap.

[Statistical]

38. While it likely "does" happen I doubt it happens with any regularity.

I mean the deadliest method to try and acquire a firearm has to be grabbing it.

Steal a purse -> use profits -> buy firearm
Break into a house -> steal firearm
Sell some drugs -> use profits -> buy firearm

vs

Intentionally target an armed individual and attempt to wrest control of a firearm you are not familiar with from someone who is.

is it in retention holster?
how does this particular retention holster release?
does it have a safety?
where it is?
up is safe or up is fire?
is there round in chamber?

while armored car operators are killed (and sometimes there weapons even are stolen) the intent was not to acquire a firearm the intent was to rob the armored car. The weapon was simply an obstacle.

Compare that to a mugger. He has 100,000 victims around him, some old, some weak, some sleepy, some handicapped. Is he going to pick the one person alert and armed with a deadly weapon?

Armed armored car operators are targeted because there are no unarmed, handicapped, weak, old armored operators. If there were unarmed armor car operators those armored cars would likely be targeted over armed ones even if the criminal was also armed.

http://www.wtvr.com/wtvr-shooting-golden-food-market-090711,0,2691670.story

Criminal robbed a store. Guy was open carrying a Colt 45 (pretty damn big firearm). The man didn't draw until the robber shot the clerk at which point the OC open fire and killed the robber. Anecdotal I know but criminals aren't soldiers. They aren't doing sweep and clears and dumping full magazine of suppressive fire on any potential threats. Many have little training or skill with firearm. They use them for intimidation and often it is not hard to hit a compliant victim at 2 feet away.

[AtheistCrusader]

40. You are assuming criminals are rational.

Many are provably not rational. What may seem unreasonable to you or I, might be the cat's pajamas to an irrational criminal.

Weapons are generally valuable on the grey and black markets. Quickly liquidated for cash. That weapon may be used to commit further crimes. Removing it from your control may enable the original planned crime (Perhaps robbery of the store)

A purse and it's contents may not be immediately valuable. You'll need to find a secondary neer-do-well that can make something of stolen ID, or find a way to extract money from non-cash bank or credit cards. The purse probably can't be used to further criminal activity, short of putting a brick in it, and whacking people over the head.

[Statistical]

43. Agreed however if criminals had that logic....

there are a large number of uniformed armed people.

We would routinely see security guards and armored car drivers attack for their weapons.

We do have one stat which indicates criminals reluctance to engage armed threats albeit in an indirect way.

The burglary rate in US is lower than most countries with low ownership of weapons.
More importantly the "hot" burglary % is much lower. Hot burglary being when home is occupied.

Burglars in the United States have learned (collectively) that breaking into an occupied home in the US runs the risk (about 40%) that the household is armed.

Still I believe carry is a personal choice. Open carry, conceal carry, no carry I respect all three.
However there is no evidence to indicate that open carry should be prohibited due to any inherent danger not present in conceal carry.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. I didn't say it should be prohibited.

I said it's a 'bad idea'. Especially since ANY perceived misbehavior on the part of the carrying individual can be used to support an actual ban on Open Carry.

With the amount of time I spend in the woods, Open Carry is a critically important thing to me. In the cities, it's an increased risk I will not take, and so I conceal/carry. I would hate to lose Open Carry in the woods, from backlash from some idiot, or even well-intentioned mistake made by people in the city, open carrying for no particular reason.

[paulsby]

55. true about hawaii

i used to be a cop there, and we had TONS of occupied burg's. why? because the criminals knew that they would not be armed, if they were tourist especially.

where i work now, there are tons of guns. occupied burglaries are rare.

[Treo]

44. When bricks are outlawed......NT LOL

[paulsby]

56. i take issues with #3

armed police officers are attacked for their weapons ALMOST ALWAYS in arrest/detention type situations.

that's not really analogous for civilians. civilians are involved in defensive shoots, but don't routinely tell bad guys "you are under" arrest, or get attacked at a traffic stop, etc.

it IS true that about 3/4+ of the times that a cop gets his gun taken from him, it will be used against him.

criminals are almost never going to target a civilian open carrying just to get a gun. guns aren't that difficult to get.

[Euromutt]

53. Re: police gun grabs

Gun grabs from LEOs rarely come out of the blue; they typically occur while the officer is trying to arrest and/or restrain the subject.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

54. I would rather see it now than see it later.

[AlinPA]

57. Open carrying / holding a revolver in your hand going into a grocery store

would shake up a lot of people where I live. Coming in with a hunting rifle in your hands would also scare the hell out of people.

[Euromutt]

58. Legally, there's a difference

Carrying a firearm in your hands can get you nailed on a "brandishing" charge. Carrying a holstered or slung firearm is a different story. Sure, some people might still get rattled, but in Washington state at least, the courts have ruled that that's really their problem, not the carrying individual's.

[AlinPA]

59. So can people in WA carry guns around in their hands? Holsters and slings I can see,

but walking into a place of business (a currency exchange store or a bank!) with a revolver in your hand seems hard to accept. Wild.

[Euromutt]

60. No; that would be "unlawful carrying or handling"

I seem to have expressed myself ambiguously. To clarify: if you get upset about somebody carrying a holstered handgun in WA, all other things being equal, your alarm is considered unwarranted for legal purposes. Carrying a long gun in your hands... well, it's one thing if you're wearing orange and it's hunting season. Carrying a slung rifle is still a bit uncertain; carrying it loaded and in a position from which you could very quickly bring the muzzle to bear will get you in trouble.

[AlinPA]

61. My view is that people need to get used to holstered guns; I was in a grocery store out west

(WY? not sure) and a guy had a holstered gun and he looked as normal in that setting as anyone else. I still can't see why people get upset about it. Though walking around with a weapon in your hands in public places is really stupid. (Hopefully nobody gets upset with me saying that here)

[IWannaKnowWhy]

62. Good idea

The mere presence of a gun doesn't create violence. Heck, in the hands of somebody legally OCing it probably does a damn good job PREVENTING violence. That is why we give them to cops after all.

However, I also have no problem with business owners declaring that their place of business is a gun free zone. As long as they post a visible sign (putting a big target on them as far as I'm concerned) they are well within their rights to do so.