(Boy) Scouts to no longer bring penknives on camping trips (UK)

[davepc]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6145785/Scouts-to-no-longer-bring-penknives-on-camping-trips.html

New advice published in Scouting, the official in-house magazine, says neither Scouts nor their parents should bring penknives to camp except in "specific" situations.

Scouts have traditionally been taught how to use knives correctly, using them on camping trips to cut firewood or carve tools.

At one point Scouts were allowed to carry a sheath knife on their belt as part of their uniform although this is no longer the case. In recent years the Scout Association guidance has been that parents should carry knives to camps or meetings.

Dave Budd, a knife-maker who runs courses training Scouts about the safe use of blades, wrote that the growing problem of knife crime meant action had to be taken.

"Sadly, there is now confusion about when a Scout is allowed to carry a knife," he wrote. "The series of high-profile fatal stabbings highlighted a growing knife culture in the UK.

"I think it is safest to assume that knives of any sort should not be carried by anybody to a Scout meeting or camp, unless there is likely to be a specific need for one. In that case, they should be kept by the Scout leaders and handed out as required."

...

I guess there must of been a rash of Boy Scouts stabbing each other with 2" blades.

[Captain Hilts]

1. This rule is silly. nt

[iverglas]

24. this rule is non-existent

Did you manage not to notice you were in the cesspool of lies and stupidity known as the Guns forum?

The rule is about CARRYING knives. About children CARRYING knives. Not about using knives to whittle or carve or clear brush. CARRYING knives.

[JonQ]

32. Fortunately when you need them

knives will magically materialize. So there is no reason to CARRY them anywhere.

You are absolutely allowed to own knives, you just can't have them on you at any point. Which would make getting them home from the store illegal, so technically it is impossible to legally own knives even at your own house unless you make them on your property. But that's a mere technicality, this is in no way a ban.

Remain vigilant citizen and together we can stamp out rampant knife violence among 12 year old boyscouts.

[iverglas]

36. wot a weirdo

You are absolutely allowed to own knives, you just can't have them on you at any point.

We really just are not talking about me. I'm not 12 years old. I was once a Girl Guide, though.

If you're talking about adults in the UK (a subject that has nothing to do with this thread), you're making a false statement.

[JonQ]

44. As this article was about banning young people from having knives

I would say my statement makes perfect sense. Only if you take it out of context does your rebuttal have any relevance. Now if I were you I would get all pissy and indignant and demand you apologize.

Yes or no, does banning carrying knives for people under 18 amount to an effective ban on knives for people under 18? Or are the things (as you seem to believe) going to magically appear in their hands when needed and disappear as soon as they are done?

I'm sorry you live in such constant fear of boyscouts with penknives, but the numbers don't really back those fears.

[grantcart]

2. idiotic be prepared - have your parent bring a knife for you.

[Toasterlad]

3. The Boy Scouts Get Rid of All Hazardous Things.

Knives, gays... Fire is next to go.

[Chipper Chat]

6. Maybe knives are no longer considered "morally straight"

:rofl:

[PavePusher]

12. Actually, as far as I know...

The British Scouts don't give two hoots if you're gay or not. But I could be wrong. Fire, however, was being discouraged last I heard.

[Toasterlad]

13. Ah, I Missed the UK Tag, Sorry.

That makes more sense. UK keeps gays and outlaws weapons, America outlaws gays and keeps weapons.

I still think it's silly to take pocketknives away from boy scouts, though.

[PavePusher]

19. Oh, I agree with you.

Britian is trying to apply wa-a-ay too much government bubble wrap, but the only people who seem to suffer are the honest citizens. It's a shame.

[TheWraith]

45. The British think a police state can solve their crime problem.

Pity they don't have any actual liberals in power over there to explain things to them.

[iverglas]

27. I'm just constantly amazed

Did it really escape your notice that the OP is NOT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES? It's amazing but true: not everything in the world is.

Scouting originated in Britain, did you know? Do Boy Scouts and Girl Guides (or whatever you call them down there) not learn about the Baden-Powells at all?

There are NO policies excluding gay scouts and lesbian guides in the UK.

And scouts in the UK have NOT got rid of knives. The issue here is the CARRYING of knives by scouts because of the need not to put children in possible legal jeopardy under laws governing the CARRYING of knives.

But you go ahead and get your news and views from the right-wing media in the UK, and then ignore the fact that it's about the UK altogether ...

[RandomThoughts]

4. Do they still have singing in the boy scouts?

She works hard for the money.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2024787/v2147910

[Treo]

5. I think I still have

My BSA logo'd jack knife this is ridiculous. And while we're here who the Hell uses a 2 inch pocket knife to cut firewood

[X_Digger]

14. Whittling for tender..

At least that's the reason we always gave for why we were sitting around a campfire whittling.

[PavePusher]

21. Ummm, "tinder"...? 8>) n/t

[X_Digger]

22. fingers faster than eyes :) n/t

[raimius]

7. Idiotic

The sharp blade is one of the most useful tools in the history of the world!
I would never go camping without AT LEAST two knives (usually a folding knife and a multi-tool).

I think the Boy Scouts are dead in the UK. It's going to turn into a social club, at best.


EDIT: Why is this the guns forum?

[Statistical]

8. UK banned guns to "solve" rising violent crime.... criminals turned to next available tool.

Crime is still high and now they are passing more and more draconian restrictions on knives.

Food for thought to those who think if we could just ban guns crime would be substantially reduced.

[iverglas]

25. falsehood upon falsehood upon falsehood

UK banned guns to "solve" rising violent crime

Nope. False. Utterly and completely false in not just one way. In so few words, too.


.... criminals turned to next available tool.

Nope. False and false. In even fewer words.


We'll have to think of what your prize should be. I think you deserve a really big one.


Food for thought to those who think if we could just ban guns crime would be substantially reduced.

Be sure to tell those if you run into them.

Remind them how much more fortunate they would be if they were the victim of a gun crime rather than a knife crime, too. Who wouldn't rather face a gun than a knife?

[JonQ]

35. Uh-oh

Facts are anti-gun control! Why do statistics hate the children?

[iverglas]

37. lookit that, wouldya????

19 handgun injuries per million population!!!

1140 handgun injuries in England and Wales in 2006!!!!!!

Kinda like there were, oh, 5500 handgun injuries in the US in the US in 2006.

:rofl:

There were more handgun HOMICIDES than that in the US in 2006.

What's that? About 50 handgun homicides in the UK in 2006?

16 homicides per million in the UK in 2006 ... and how many was that in the US? 55 or so?

:rofl:

Them's some pretty pictures you got there. Too bad they're so transparent, eh?

[JonQ]

43. Oh lookit that, someone lacks a basic understanding of statistics

The murder rate was lower than ours before the ban went in to effect, and rose afterwards. So for Britain it made things worse, not better as their versions of your persona believed. Do you understand?

Only a grabber could turn a massive increase in violence crime immediately following a gun ban in to a victory for gun control.

[iverglas]

47. only a person with complete contempt for the truth

could call what those graphs show "a massive increase in violence crime" (sic).

[JonQ]

50. A 30% increase in homicides and greater than triple

the number of injuries, nope nothing significant there.

If the murder rate in your town were to jump by that much clearly the authorities would simply shrug it off and ignore it, as would you.

Before you could have claimed ignorance, but now that you know the facts I have to ask, why do you favor an increase in violent crime?

[iverglas]

52. and I have to ask

Before you could have claimed ignorance, but now that you know the facts I have to ask, why do you favor an increase in violent crime?

Why are you such a dishonest asshole?

I can't answer your question because it's loaded with a false premise.

What you do with my question -- an EXACT MODEL of yours, please note -- is up to you.



typo fixed

[JonQ]

63. Hmm

so you know that a ban increases violence (now that I have educated you against your will), and you favor a ban, but you do not favor an increase in violence.

Interesting.

About like knowing that shooting someone may cause death, and being in favor of shooting someone, but claiming to not want to hurt them.

I wonder, how do you reconcile these contradictory goals in your mind?

[spin]

51. At close range the jiu-jitsu training I had years ago...

taught me how to disarm an individual with either a knife or a handgun.

I found the knife harder to deal with. Knives are nasty weapons and in skilled hands VERY deadly.

However, they are also very useful tools and banning knives accomplishes little.

[iverglas]

53. yeah

taught me how to disarm an individual with either a knife or a handgun.

I found the knife harder to deal with.


Funny how a person with a handgun can kill / injure / rob someone without ever getting close enough to be within disarming distance ...

[spin]

59. When they are at say 10 to 15 feet...

I was trained to do a judo roll out and come up beside the attacker and then try to use the close techniques for disarming. The instructor told us that if you used this procedure, your chances of not getting shot were at the best 50/50.

At my age and with my bad hip and screwed up back, if I tried the judo roll out, I would hope that the bad guy was so busy laughing at my attempt that I might have a slight chance of disarming him.

I should add that the instructor always told us "the eyes are the mirror of the soul. If you believe when you look at the persons eyes that he intends to harm you, then use the techniques you have learned. Otherwise, just give him your wallet. All the things in your wallet can be replaced. Your life can't."

He also advised carrying a wallet with a couple of $20 dollar bills and some outdated credit cards. The important stuff you carry in a money belt or another wallet.

[virgogal]

9. Madness!

[yost69]

10. I feel sorry for the boys cutting firewood with penknives.

[iverglas]

28. I feel sorry for the maliciously ignorant

What the scouting guidance says:

Knives are tools and should be treated as such: use the appropriate tool for the job (don’t use a large fixed blade for carving or a penknife for clearing brush).

[spin]

11. A knife is a very important survival and hunting tool...

and a 2" penknife is a poor tool for camping.

I would recommend (at the minimum) a fixed blade knife such as the RC-4 made by Rat Cutlery.



This is the "wilderness" model of the popular RC-3 tactical knife. With its 3/16" thickness, full flat grind, rounded pommel, Micarta handles and light weight, it can serve as a primary backpacking and wilderness survival knife, or fitted to your modular system for duty carry in a tactical environment.
http://www.knivesshipfree.com/RC-4

Damn good thing I don't live in the U.K.

Note: I don't own an RC-4 but I own the slightly smaller RC-3 which would also be a good camping knife. The RC-3 is a great EDC (every day carry) knife.

[gorfle]

31. They banned "sheath knives" a long time ago.

I'm an Eagle Scout. I got my Eagle in 1988. Just as I was towards the end of my Scouting involvement there was a move to ban "sheath knives" - any fixed-blade knife that required a sheath. Of course, I thought this was absurd. A rugged survival knife is one of the absolute best survival tools available. And a machete was one of the most useful camp tools.

Getting your first pocket knife is one of a boy's rights of passage. I can't believe they are seriously talking about removing knives from Boy Scouting.

[spin]

48. I never had the chance to be a scout...

but I did somehow get a boy scout's pocket knife when I was six years old.

I learned the hard way that a slip joint knife will cut the hell out of your fingers if misused. All my pocket knifes have a blade that will lock in place. Of course, such blades are illegal for most citizens to carry in the U.K. as they are effectively fixed blades.

And I remember carrying a pocket knife when I went to school in the fifties and sixties. Most guys carried one. One of my friends carried a gravity knife. That knife opened almost as fast as a switchblade. One day when he was walking across a field, a German Shepard attacked him. He killed the dog with the knife and survived the attack without serious injury.

At home, I carried a 5" fixed blade knife at all times. I lived in the country on 29 acres of weeds and trees. The fixed blade got a lot of use. When I was wandering around through the woods on my property and adjoining properties, I usually carried a British army machete. It's absolutely amazing how useful a machete is. To me it's far more useful than a hand ax or hatchet.

[east texas lib]

15. Be Prepared...as long as you have authorization from the Knife Nazi...

Modern scouting, Brit style. Hmmm.:o

[iverglas]

40. modern reading comprehension

US style. Hmmmmmmm.

[iverglas]

16. isn't google just fucking wonderful?

The truth is out there.


http://www.scouts.org.uk/news/225/scouting-refutes-knife-ban-claims

(press release, copyright not applicable)

Scouting refutes knife ban claims

09/09/2009

Several incorrect stories have appeared in the media this week reporting a knife ban in Scouting.

In fact, Scouting's rules on the subject have not significantly changed since the late 1960s.

Knives may still be used by young people and adults during supervised camps and other outdoor activities.

Scouting encourages young people to learn to respect knives, and use them sensibly to learn outdoor skills such as fire lighting, shelter building and backwoods cooking.

The Movement provides a safe supervised environment in which young people can learn how and how not to use them - including how to avoid injuring themselves and others.

The Scout Association does not condone young people carrying knifes on their person as a matter of course, unless there is a specific need for one.

Scouting recommends training in the handling of knives not only for young people, but also for their adult leaders. Advice on the use of knives in Scouting is updated periodically and most recently an article appeared in Scouting magazine, the publication that goes out every two months to Scouting's 100,000 adult members.

This is part of regular advice and guidance offered to the Movement since the wearing of a knife with uniform was discontinued in the late 1960s. Over the years the advice we have offered is always based around two key points:

i) We need to comply with the law of the land (so we remind people of the current legislation).

ii) We remind people in which situations it is appropriate to teach young people how to use knives safely and when it is not appropriate to use a knife.

Providing skills, training and opportunities
Scouting provides opportunities to explore the outdoors to 400,000 boys and girls across the UK, supported by 100,000 adult leaders, each of whom benefits from a comprehensive adult training scheme.

A leading outdoors expert recently commented on knives in Scouting: 'When we give knives to young people, we tell them they are being entrusted and that responsibility is one of the most important parts of their education.'

Visit Scouting's UK Chief Commissioner's blog to get a personal take on the issue from UK Chief Commissioner Wayne Bulpitt, who along with Chief Scout Bear Grylls leads and manages the 100,000 adult volunteers involved in Scouting across the UK.

[iverglas]

17. "never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

http://www.scouts.org.uk/ccblog/6/the-truth-about-scouts-and-knives

... A Mail on Sunday journalist approached us on Friday having read the latest guidance we issued in Scouting Magazine/online in December 08 and April 09 on advising Scouts on the situations in which they can use a knife as part of normal Scout Activities. He was looking to make the story into "Scouts Ban knives shocker". The media team took them through the facts and sent them links to our various documents and magazine articles giving him the following info,

- The Rules changed about wearing knives with uniform in 1968
- We have issued regular guidance to the Movement on this matter ever since 1968 e.g. early 1980's , 1996, 2008 and 2009 (the latest being the magazine article in April/May)
- We need to support leaders with information to help them support young people

Despite making these facts available the Mail on Sunday published the piece, They used a few selective statements and quotes some out of context..

A number of newspapers this morning (Times, Telegraph, Express, Mirror, Sun) have taken the text from the Mail on Sunday (without talking to us) and have run with the story.

The UK's finest right-wing budgie cage liners ... and of course our own fine davepc and his little friends.

[iverglas]

18. "Can Scouts Carry Knives?"

btw, I'm recommending this stupid, stupid thread, just in the interests of shining light into this place. Quick, unrecommend it!!


http://www.scouts.org.uk/documents/News/080909/Pages%20from%20scouting.pdf

Knives and Scouts

The Scout Association provides additional guidance:

• Knives should be carried to and from meetings by an adult.
• Knives should be stowed in the middle of a bag/rucksack when transporting.
• Knives are tools and should be treated as such: use the appropriate tool for the job (don’t use a large fixed blade for carving or a penknife for clearing brush).
• Knives should be stored away until there is a need for them to be used.
• Campsites are considered public places (when used for a camp) and so knives are not to be carried.
• Except for reasons of religion, knives may not be worn with uniform.

I think it is probably safest to assume that knives of any sort should not be carried by anybody to a Scout meeting or camp, unless there is likely to be a specific need for one. In that case, they should be kept by the Scout leaders and handed out as required.

I would also suggest that proper training in the use and care of knives (and other tools) be taken, not only by the Scouts themselves but also by the leaders in charge.

[PavePusher]

20. Bubble wrap the children.

"I think it is probably safest to assume that knives of any sort should not be carried by anybody to a Scout meeting or camp, unless there is likely to be a specific need for one. In that case, they should be kept by the Scout leaders and handed out as required."

I can only dream that my life would be so neat and orderly that I would always know when and where I would have a "specific need" for a sharp-edged tool.

Ooooo, I know, we'll let dull-edged ones TELL us when we need them! How easy was that?!

After all, we certainly wouldn't want to teach youngsters how to think for themselves. Someone in a position of authority will always be there to do their thinking for them.

[iverglas]

23. you don't have a clue, do you?

"I think it is probably safest to assume that knives of any sort should not be carried by anybody to a Scout meeting or camp, unless there is likely to be a specific need for one. In that case, they should be kept by the Scout leaders and handed out as required."

BECAUSE carrying a knife in public can put the person carrying it in legal jeopardy, and there is no reason for children to be put in that position.

You apparently realize we're talking about children, here.


I can only dream that my life would be so neat and orderly that I would always know when and where I would have a "specific need" for a sharp-edged tool.

Are you 12 years old?

One certainly does suspect as much.


After all, we certainly wouldn't want to teach youngsters how to think for themselves. Someone in a position of authority will always be there to do their thinking for them.

Did a bang-up job on you, somebody did.

Unable to make an iota of sense, but always have a knife about your person, apparently.

[beevul]

26. Out of context?

"Scouting helps to prepare young people with valuable life skills, while keeping them safe by not carrying knives."

Ok, The piece you replied to the OP with, says quotes taken out of context, and you obviously believe that enough to post what you posted.

Seeing as you do, what exactly IS the context of this statement, in YOUR opinion?

[PavePusher]

30. If you don't see my point, I can't help you.

"but always have a knife about your person, apparently."

Since the age of six. It's a wonder I haven't lost a limb yet.

[iverglas]

38. I think the point stabbed you in the eye and blinded you

Since the age of six. It's a wonder I haven't lost a limb yet.

The scouting policy in the UK has nothing to do with the risk of injury to a child carrying a knife.

Get a grip. Try not to make it on the blade of that thing. No point in losing your fingers along with your sight.

[spin]

54. Nothing wrong about having a knife about your person...

as I type this I have two knives on my person.

One is a small fixed blade with a blade length of 2.88 inches. This little fixed blade really has impressed me. Usually I carry a larger fixed blade knife with a 4" blade, but this blade is a little easier to carry in a kydex sheath with numerous carry options. I carry mine on my belt, but many find that the Izula is a great pocket knife.



Rat Cutlery Izula



{i] Izula in sheath

http://www.ratcutlery.com/neck_knife.htm

The other knife I have in my pocket is a Spyderco Endura. The fully serrated blade is very useful for many tough jobs.



It's amazing how many times a day I find a use for a knife. Because, I carry two, I never have to waste time getting one.

{i] edited to add:

During the time I was typing this post and just after I finished, I used both knives. I opened a bottle of hot sauce with the Izula and opened a package from UPS with the Spyderco.

[iverglas]

56. you read the post you replied to?

And yet you didn't answer:

Are you 12 years old?


I know no one in the real world who carries a knife on their person with them in public. No one. If I need a knife or other cutting tool in my home or office, I go and get one. How one opens a bottle with a knife, I wouldn't know. I open parcels by ripping the tape off or going and getting something sharp from a drawer and cutting it.

What any of this has to do with CHILDREN CARRYING KNIVES IN PUBLIC, the subject of this thread, I guess I will never know.

[spin]

62. I carried a fixed blade knife when I was 12 years old...

and often I carried it in public (with my father). I lived in Ohio and nobody paid any real attention.

My grand kids often carry small locking blades around our small town. The police have no problem as long as they are under 4". As I have often posted, a local police officer used to room with us. At time time I bought the knives for the grand kids, one was 13 and one 14. The younger one managed to lose his as he would use it and not put it back in his pocket.

The knives I bought for them were Benchmade Griptilian folding knifes with a locking blade.



The top of the bottle of hot sauce was tightly wrapped with plastic. I used the knife to cut and remove it. The hot sauce was Dave's Ultimate Insanity hot sauce. I love hot sauce and this is HOT.



I also used the Uzula fixed blade knife to cut through some plastic covering on a cup of Maruchan
Hot & Spicy shrimp flavor noddles. I added several drops of Dave's Ultimate Insanity hot sauce and made it HOT.

Knives are very useful as an everyday tool.

Life is good.

[iverglas]

66. well, I'm still not seeing a point

You lived in Ohio a half century ago on 29 acres of bush.

The children in the situation under discussion live in England in the 21st century and undoubtedly most of them live in large urban areas.

What does you carting a knife around 50 years ago in rural Ohio have to do with anything?


I lived in Ohio and nobody paid any real attention.

People DO pay attention, in England, this year.

A child carying a knife in public would be at risk of problems with authorities.

The scouts organization has decided it is best that scouting activities not carry that risk for scouts. Knives will be provided on camping trips for scouts to use -- the appropriate knife for whatever purpose it is being used for.

What on earth is anyone's problem with this?

These kids aren't being denied their liberty or their lunch, for fook's sake. They are being kept from being put at risk of problems they don't need, that activities associated with scouting, but NOT ESSENTIAL for scouting, might cause them. A scount does NOT need to carry a knife around in public. Period.



typo fixed

[spin]

68. Did you notice that my two grandsons tote locking pocket knives,..,

called "flick knives" in the U.K., around town without any problem. Most of their friends also carry these useful tools. In the U.K. adults would be prohibited from carry these knives in public without damn good reason.

True, my grandsons do not live in a large urban area, but when I lived in Tampa, many teenagers carried similar knives and a high percentage of adults did also. Most of the adults were also shooters and owned firearms and many had concealed carry permits. Some of my friends and both my daughter and her husband carry switch blades because they are legal in Florida.

Knives do not cause stabbings, irresponsible people cause stabbings. In all the years I've carried a knife, I never threatened or attacked anyone with one. I'm not unusual.

But, to be honest, I can understand that different societies have different cultures. Canada is different from the U.S. and the U.K is also different from both Canada and the U.S.

That's far from a positive statement. The Brits may be totally incompetent of handling any tool that could be used to attack people. Hell, they can't even behave at football games (soccer). The Canadians that I've met through the years appear to be very polite and courteous. (But then maybe they are terrified of Americans with guns and knives.)

[iverglas]

71. why do you spew such nonsense?

The Brits may be totally incompetent of handling any tool that could be used to attack people.

Maybe you really think that. If you did, you'd be an ignorant bigot, right?

The Brits have decided that they do not want people walking around in public armed with weapons. A knife, like anything else, is an object that CAN BE USED AS A WEAPON. It is much more suited for use as a weapon than almost anything else that a person might carry around in a pocket. And a very very large number of people in the UK - ESPECIALLY CHILDREN AND YOUTHS - do carry knives around to use as weapons. And do use them as weapons.

The US does not have a huge problem with "knife crime". It does not have a serious problem with adolescents robbing people at knifepoint and trying to kill one another with knives. I have no idea why a 12-yr-old in the US would need or want to carry a knife around 24/7. Whatever. But I will bet you -- your grandchildren DID NOT carry their knives into the classroom, not in the last decade, anyway. Am I right?


Hell, they can't even behave at football games (soccer).

Well, that ignorant bigotry line is well within view now.

Perhaps you actually know something about social conditions in the UK and the history of football hooliganism -- perhaps you even know, for instance, that all the people who died at Hillsborough died because of official incompetence and negligence, and attitudes just like the one your statement reflects; nothing to do with hooliganism. Perhaps you're just pretending to be testing the waters over the ignorant bigotry line ...



typo fixed

[spin]

76. Actually, I just wanted to see if I could stir you up...

I'm a Gemini and occasionally the naughty twin takes over.

As to my grandsons carrying their knives in school you of course are right. No sharp pointy items are allowed n school. The schools I attended half a century ago were a lot different. And from what I can see, one hell of a lot better.

As to the issue of knife crime in the U.K., I wonder if it's not do to minor punishment for those caught carrying weapons.

When it comes to reducing knife and gun crime, patently, weapons amnesties and lightweight community service sentences for those caught carrying a weapon are having little real effect on the problem. In fact there appears to be a growing anger and resentment amongst the general public at the governments continued commitment to tough words but limp action.

Those dealing with the issues on the ground within the community have long been saying that the growing weapons culture and the easy willingness to use them is a symptom of deep rooted problems in our society. Poverty, lack of opportunity, the "must have now" culture (fuelled by the easy access to credit - even to those unable to afford it), the growing divide between the rich and poor, the break down of family values and discipline, are just some of the issues which probably have to be tackled if we are really going to solve the problem. Such a cultural change may take a generation or two to achieve, but unless we get started, things are likely to get a lot worse before they get better.
http://www.insight-security.com/facts-knife-crime-stats.htm

A slap on the wrist may not be enough. I also feel that's one of the biggest problems in gun violence in the states. All too often charges of illegally carrying a firearm are plea bargained away. Five to ten years in prison might discourage many from everyday carry and might stop a lot of killings caused when a person carrying an illegal weapon is "disrespected".

Football hooliganism seems to be an ingrained part of British society.

Football hooliganism in England dates back to the 1880s, when what were termed as roughs caused trouble at football matches.<5> Local derby matches would usually have the worst trouble, but in an era when travelling fans were not common, roughs would sometimes attack the referees and the away team's players.<103> Between the two World Wars, football hooliganism diminished to a great extent, and it started to attract media attention in the early 1960s. A moral panic developed because of increased crime rates among juveniles, and because of the mods and rockers conflict. Football matches started to feature regular fights among fans, and the emergence of more organised hooliganism.<103> Fans started to form themselves into groups, mostly drawn from local working class areas. They tended to all stand together, usually at the goal-end terrace of their home football ground, which they began to identify as their territory. The development of these ends helped bring about national gang rivalries, focused primarily around football clubs. With the growth of fans travelling to watch their local club play away matches, these gangs became known as hooligan firms, and during matches they focused their attentions on intimidating opposing fans.<103> Some hooligans travelled to games on the Football Specials train services.

****snip****

Despite hooliganism declining domestically, death threats by English hooligans have become more common in the 2000s. Rio Ferdinand was the target of death threats from Leeds United fans, as was Peter Ridsdale.<129><130> Swedish referee Anders Frisk quit his position after receiving death threats from Chelsea F.C. fans.<131> Reading players Ibrahima Sonko and Stephen Hunt also received death threats from Chelsea fans in 2006.<132> A steward died after serious clashes between firms from Aston Villa and Queens Park Rangers after a Carling Cup game in September 2004.<133> It has been documented that most English hooligans are in their late teens or early twenties, although it is not uncommon for older hooligans to take part, usually as leaders. They usually come from working class backgrounds, mainly employed in manual or lower clerical occupations, or (to a lesser extent) are working in the grey market or are unemployed.<103[br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism#England

Societies and cultures are different and interesting. In our culture we have a fondness for firearms. To people from a different culture that's not familiar with firearms this seems sheer madness. Indeed many people who live in large very liberal cities with strict gun laws have the same attitude.

Yet when you travel to a state that has very liberal gun laws, you don't find many people upset about gun ownership. Firearms are very common in these areas and most are owned by responsible people. Your doctor, your lawyer, your minister, your TV repairman, your postman and your next door neighbor may all own firearms and it's quite possible they have concealed carry permits.

[iverglas]

78. yes, well, for your information

I just got back from hospital for my pre-op. Next week, I have a do-over on the lens replacement, a vitrectomy to get rid of the scum in my eyeball, and removal of scar tissue on my retina. I'll have the glaucoma permanently. If anybody can find a doctor who will screw up a perfectly simple cataract operation, it's me. (The toothache that turned into a root canal, two broken teeth, a cap, an infection that lasted two months and a bridge ... that fell out. And that was two different dentists and an oral surgeon over the course of 8 months.) This time the file will have postems all over it saying SEDATIVE++++

(It was you used to ask after my eyes, wasn't it? Well, all that. When I was decades too young for a cataract in the first place. That's what being a brown-eyed smoker gets you, I guess.)

And I'll still be forced to watch English Premier League soccier football on Saturday morning.

[spin]

79. No, I wasn't the poster who asked about your eye problem...

but let me express my concern and hope that the procedures you face will help.

My doctor tells me that I'm a candidate for a hip replacement and that I have severe degenerative disk disease. I'm on a strong dose of a medicine called Gabapentin that appears to be helping my back pain to a degree. On Friday, I get some steroid shots in my back that might help.

Shit, I retire and I can't walk a city block without severe pain. My daughter told me to get a handicapped tag so I can park closer to the stores we frequent. I exercised for 30 years, jumping rope, using a rowing machine, a Nordic Track ski machine, running and walking. I enjoyed the exercise and still use a stationary recumbent exercise bike. I think i overdid it when I was younger.

But as I said, good luck on your procedures. While I'm not noted for being religious, I'll say a prayer for you.

[benEzra]

29. "The growing problem of knife crime meant action had to be taken."

The growing problem of knife crime by Boy Scouts?

If I had to hazard a guess, I would suspect that the rate of knife crime among Boy Scouts was far lower than the rate among young males at large, and that the UK kids stabbing each other with blades are by and large not the ones with involved parents who took them camping in groups and taught them to use tools responsibly.

But moral crusades are not often known for their logic, I suppose...

[iverglas]

39. dog, but there are some deceitful dullards around here

Dave Budd, a knife-maker who runs courses training Scouts about the safe use of blades, wrote that the growing problem of knife crime meant action had to be taken.

"Sadly, there is now confusion about when a Scout is allowed to carry a knife," he wrote. "The series of high-profile fatal stabbings highlighted a growing knife culture in the UK.

The growing problem of knife crime has led to increased enforcement activity to deal with the CARRYING OF KNIVES IN PUBLIC.

Action had to be taken TO ENSURE THAT SCOUTS ARE NOT IN LEGAL JEOPARDY as a result of ***CARRYING*** KNIVES IN PUBLIC.


But moral crusades are not often known for their logic, I suppose...

There is no crusade, the policy has nothing to do with morality, and the logic of a policy that ensures that children are not at risk of violating laws against CARRYING KNIVES IN PUBLIC is unassailable.

For the love of fuck, have you people neither a grain of sense nor a shred of integrity?

[benEzra]

41. Hadn't noticed that the law wasn't new; I thought this stemmed from a change in the regulations.

So I suppose the change in Boy Scout policy is not shifting from new regulations, then, but from the realization that said regulations were so stupidly written as to make the possession of penknives while camping a crime?

[iverglas]

42. well

Actually, there hasn't been a huge change in scouting policy. Knives ceased to be carried as part of the uniform in 1969.

the realization that said regulations were so stupidly written as to make the possession of penknives while camping a crime?

Why don't you inform yourself as to what the LAW in England regarding the carrying of knives IS, and get back to us?

Or you can just keep making false and stupid statements and pretending they're questions ...

[Scout]

46. "For the love of fuck, have you people neither a grain of sense nor a shred of integrity?"

in most cases, no they don't.

apparently they don't read well either.

[Remmah2]

33. No more finger carving merit badges I guess. nt

nt

[JonQ]

34. This is no laughing matter, a gang of penknife wielding boyscouts

recently killed an entire family in my neighborhood.

Seriously we all live in terror of them.

I would attempt to stop them using a gun or knife myself, but I know from extensive lectures that that would only provoke them further and result in them taking my weapon away and using it on me.

One of the little bastards, when caught, revealed that all he wanted was to do well in school, read the bible, respect his parents and become a humanitarian worker, but the availability of knives, the ease of access, and living in a pro-knife culture all forced him in to a life of crime.

We need to ban knives, for the children (and for the adults murdered by children).

[spin]

49. Great post. (n/t)

[rd_kent]

55. The bottom of the slippery-slope.

This is where we are headed if the grabbers have their way. Be afraid, be very afraid.

[iverglas]

57. ... is where one finds all the disingenuous dimwits

all piled on top of one another.

[rd_kent]

58. How's the view from down there, ivar?

Especially from the bottom of the pile. Or does the queen of the disingenuous sit atop the pile?

[Spoonman]

60. Anatomy refresher for you......

The ass is always on the bottom!

[rd_kent]

61. You would know, considering how big of one you always make yourself.

Today is no exception.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rd_kent]

65. OK, my bad.

Not sure that you make me look like a grabber, but ok, you win this one.

[iverglas]

67. well, that was fun

And such a fine illustration of what I said!

Leave them to their own devices for a couple of hours while I get some work done, and look what they get up to.

I love it when they eat their young.

[Spoonman]

73. At least his was an honest mistake,

as opposed to your normal blatant disregard for fact.

[rd_kent]

77. Get some work done?

What, did your broom need some repair?

[Indy Lurker]

69. Boy Scouts in the US recommend a fixed knife for camping.

The best type of knife for camping trips — and most any other outdoor activity, for that matter — is a short, fixed-blade knife with a beefy handle.


http://boyslife.org/outdoors/askgearguy/4856/choosing-a-hunting-knife/

Cub Scouts can carry a knife o scout functions starting in 3rd grade (8yrs old)


Safety Guidelines

Use of Knives by Cub Scouts

To earn the right to carry a pocketknife at Cub Scout functions, the scouts must be in third grade and have earned the Whittling Chip by completing the Shavings and Chips Achievement 19 in the Bear Cub Scout Book. Please don’t give the boys knives until they meet these requirements. We encourage this award as we feel it teaches and conveys respect for safety and personal property.

[iverglas]

81. ha ha ha

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33289924/ns/today-today_people/

Wed., Oct . 14, 2009

Yesterday he faced 45 days in reform school. This morning, Zachary Christie is on his way to school for the first time since he made the mistake of taking his favorite camping utensil to school and ran into his Delaware school system's zero-tolerance policy.

On Tuesday night the school board made a hasty change to its code of conduct. The seven-member board voted unanimously to reduce the punishment for kindergartners and first-graders who bring weapons to school or commit other violent offenses to a suspension ranging from three to five days.

... A Swiss Army-type combination of fork, spoon, bottle opener and knife, the tool has been Zachary’s favorite ever since he got it to take on Cub Scout camping expeditions. “He eats dinner with it, breakfast and everything else, so it never occurred to him that this would have been something wrong to do,” the 6-year-old’s mother told TODAY’s Meredith Vieira Tuesday morning from Newark, Del.

Those stupid Brits.

Oh wait ...

[spin]

82. Good to see you back.

Missed your posts.

[iverglas]

83. just passing through

Happened to see the news item as I was looking at something completely different on the net. It just cried out to me.

The eye surgery has left me with astigmatism that means the eye is useless for now. (The size of the incision needed has caused corneal distortion.) I find out in a couple of weeks whether that's permanent, and will call for glasses to be worn for all purposes at all times, or can be expected to abate. I am not a happy girl guide camper.

[gorfle]

84. We'll keep an eye out for you.

:)

[friendly_iconoclast]

85. I second that. You definitely class up the joint.

The level of intellectual discourse here has been sadly lacking wthout you

[S_B_Jackson]

70. What utter foolishness.....

knives of any sort should not be carried by anybody to a Scout meeting or camp, unless there is likely to be a specific need for one. In that case, they should be kept by the Scout leaders and handed out as required.

Now, I admit it's been quite some time since I was a boyscout, but as I recall the motto was "ALWAYS BE PREPARED!" When camping, there's always a need for a knife: to cut meat, trim a sapling branch to make a "fishing pole", to cut rope, etc..... Sadly, it seems that "common" sense is an increasingly rare commodity.

[iverglas]

72. indeed, indeed

What utter foolishness.....

As displayed by people who read a report in the UK's right-wing media and then spew an opinion in public based on nothing but their eagerness to believe something the right-wing media has served them on a plate.


Sadly, it seems that "common" sense is an increasingly rare commodity.

It is, particularly among people who post on internet discussions boards, eh?

[Spoonman]

74. Hmmmmm........

It is, particularly among people who post on internet discussions boards, eh?

Your lastest post count is: 29,441

[57_TomCat]

75. Gander meet goose...

Nailed it spoonman! You da man!


Your lastest post count is: 29,441

Ah the sweet irony. :)

[Israfel4]

80. Not being allowed to CARRY a knife/knives???

I didn't think that country could fall any farther..................................I was wrong :(

[Xela]

86. And they're falling even further...

In case you missed it:

"Pubs warn over plastic pints plan

Plans to replace the traditional pint glass with one made of shatter-proof plastic will not be accepted by drinkers, the pub industry has warned.

The Home Office has commissioned a new design, in an attempt to stop glasses being used as weapons.

Official figures show 5,500 people are attacked with glasses and bottles every year in England and Wales."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8217775.stm

Xela

[jeepnstein]

87. It's not like that here.

I'm taking off in a few minutes for a weekend campout. I'm teaching shooting sports this weekend with a heavy emphasis on safety and range commands. It should be lots of fun.

Knives? I don't know how you camp without one. It had better be sharp.

[iverglas]

88. "Knives? I don't know how you camp without one."

A propos of -- what?

Gosh, you'd almost think there was something in this thread about somebody camping without knives.

[OttavaKarhu]

89. Finland just died laughing

Finns get knives as soon as we can deploy our opposable thumbs.

Got my first puukko at age 3. Unless I was born with more than the normal number of digits, I still got em all.

I don't understand how making kids stupider and less able to deal with adult tools and skills is somehow going to fix the pandemic of piss poor parenting.

[Taitertots]

90. When I was a boy scout we all had knifes that we carried on us

before we even went to camp. We all used them constantly, most of the time when adults were no where to be found.

Back then I would carry a fixed blade knife in a sheath on my belt when camping, and a 5" folding knife when in the city. No one ever questioned it.


What is wrong with the UK if they are so violent that they can't handle knifes?