Federal Judge rules on open carry

[oneshooter]

Federal judge rules police cannot detain people for openly carrying guns.

Story here: http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m9d9-Federal-judge-rules-police-cannot-detain-people-for-openly-carrying-guns


The Judge's straight shootin' message to police: Leave open carriers alone unless you have "reason to believe that a crime afoot."


Great news!!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[abelenkpe2]

1. That will make everyone else feel safe

Enjoy.

[POAS]

2. how?

[Euromutt]

25. That cops can't hassle you for doing something that's not illegal?

Yeah, that does make me feel better, frankly.

Whatever your opinion on the legal status of open carry, I'd like to think we can all agree that it's dangerous path to take to allow law enforcement to harass private citizens for behavior that's perfectly legal. Whether you think that behavior should be legal is an entirely different matter.

[tridim]

3. Please Mr. President, never visit Texas.

[Libertas1776]

5. Kennedy

certainly learned that the hard way.

[Statistical]

6. Kennedy was killed by a weapon in the open? "learn" something new everyday. n/t

[Libertas1776]

9. FYI

I was responding to post #3, not the OP.

[Xenotime]

118. HA!

[Treo]

7. OC isn't legal in Texas....yet NT

[Euromutt]

22. The incident occurred in New Mexico

Try actually reading the article next time.

[TxRider]

49. We have laws against open carry in Texas...

You can still carry a long gun though I believe.

[rl6214]

84. Moron

I would gladly welcome the president to my state.

[benEzra]

88. Or Vermont....

FWIW, I'm sure you are perfectly aware that carry, whether open or concealed, in the vicinity of the President is a violation of Federal law, and the Secret Service enforces that rule pretty thoroughly...

[SteveM]

89. Candidate Obama visited Austin in '08: drew 20,000

The biggest demonstration since a 1970 anti-war crowd. Got a problem with that?

[tridim]

97. None at all. I just don't want him to get shot in today's political climate.

[SteveM]

99. The hate mongers know no political boundaries.

[virginia mountainman]

107. Once again, your putting on full display your ignorance on this subject..

To help you, with your problem, a map for your edification, Texas is NOT, a open carry state...



Their are ONLY 7 States, that ban open carry, Texas is one of them.

[RamboLiberal]

114. Amazes me that 5 of the restrictive states are southern

Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, South Carolina and Florida - what's up with that?

[Treo]

120. That's because most gun control laws were originally Jim Crow laws

Specifically aimed at disarming blacks

[msongs]

4. yep gotta let the gun nuts wave em in everyone's face with impunity lol nt

[Treo]

8. I OC frequently

Most folks don't even notice

[Arctic Dave]

10. You must live in a totally shitty neighborhood or are surrounded by wild animals.

[PavePusher]

13. I live in Tucson, does that fit your description?

I'm so glad Constitutional rights are defined by geography...

[Arctic Dave]

34. From what I remember of Tuscon, Yes. :)

I don't know if it's more of a constitutional rights question as a common sense question. But do as you want if you get your rocks off.

[paulsby]

38. penis canard variation

didn't take long

[Arctic Dave]

66. Does the card apply to myself since I own several guns also?

Do you live in the bad streets of the suburbs too? Apperently they've gone to hell and I no idea.

[paulsby]

72. i said CANARD not CARD

penis canard is one of the most popular illogical memes that pops up in gun threads.

i highlight as i see it.

[PavePusher]

59. Well, since I also exercise this right in...

Utah, Vermont and New Hampshire, I really don't know how to decode your statement. Maybe we should just leave it as it's not your cup of tea, just as reading Mao's Little Red Book in front of a Tibetian Monastary wouldn't be mine.

[Arctic Dave]

64. I do carry, when I'm out in bear country.

As a matter of fact I was out fishing for silvers today but I didn't take one because I wasn't going out very far. I can't really see myself needing one to go pick up the kids from soccer practice though.

[Treo]

75. Bears have been captured in Downtown CO Springs

EDIT As a matter of fact bears have been frequently captured in downtown CoS/EDIT There you have it I'm justified

[PavePusher]

77. Umm, well documented that criminals, car-jackers for instance,

really don't give a rats' butt if you are going to pick up your kids, or already have them in your car. I don't carry in non-hunting situations for protection from animals of the four-legged type.

[Treo]

24. Middle class Neighborhood in CO Springs

I just happen to like OC

[Euromutt]

28. It does expand your choice of apparel

With OC, you don't have to worry about a cover garment, is it too warm? will my gun print? etc. etc.

[Treo]

50. It really doesn't get "too" warm in Co Springs I just like to tuck my shirt in occasionally NT

[Arctic Dave]

33. The suburbs have gone to hell I guess.

Remember to put the extra bolt on the door.

[Treo]

48. I don't get it.

I carry all the time ( I happen to be carrying right now) I always carry the same gun. The only thing that changes is some times I cover it up some times I don't.

So why are you so freaked out just because this time you can see it?

And again, I'd like to point out that when I do OC most people DON'T notice, and just so we're clear I'm talking about walking through Wal-Mart not out in the sticks somewhere.

PS I do have an extra bolt on my door

[Arctic Dave]

61. Well that's wonderful. Like I said the suburbs must have gone to hell.

Too bad.:(

[Treo]

69. You didn't answer my question NT

[Arctic Dave]

74. I guessing the question is if i an freaked out by a person carrying a weapon.

For the most part, that would be a big no. Seeing someone in Walmart(are you for real) carrying one I would be a suspect of the persons mental faculties.
Seeing someone out in the woods carrying a weapon would seem about as natural as rain.

[Treo]

76. In some places

People carrying in Wal-Mart is as natural as (yes I'm serious)rain

[PavePusher]

12. O.C. is not "waving em in everyone's faces".

That would be brandishing, with a very specific legal meaning, and only legal under very strict circumstances (self-defense).

But don't let facts get in the way of a good hand-wringing spasm.

I sure hope YOU don't exercise any Constitutional rights in full veiw of a weak-kneed public.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. At least try and be honest.

[TxRider]

51. Nope waving a gun in a person face would be illegal, a holstered gun is not.

[ManiacJoe]

81. .

No sense piling on after the other three corrections have already been posted.

[SteveM]

90. Any links showing "gun waving in everyone's face?" No? Thought so (nt)

[OregonBlue]

11. Guess we know what you're compensating for!! Real men don't have to OC.

Wouldn't you be more comfortable over at Free Republic? They really do like men who need to carry guns to make themselves feel "bigger".

[PavePusher]

14. "Real men don't have to OC."

What, you too scared?

Yeah, I'll play your game for a few minutes...

[Treo]

26. It only took 11 posts to get to the obligatory "penis" reference

I'm impressed

[Mojorabbit]

47. So am I. nt

[Euromutt]

30. There are some other anti-RKBA types on this forum...

...who insist that those who carry should OC "so that we can tell who the crazies are" (or words to that effect). Y'all should get together and thrash out a consensus on how you'd like carriers to behave, and when you've collectively made up your minds, we might give a pile of fetid dingoes' kidneys what you think.

[PavePusher]

32. Check.... and.... Mate! +1!

[paulsby]

39. ah, the NEED canard

we;ve hit two of the three classics within just a few posts.

NEED canard and PENIS canard.

nice!

[rl6214]

85. Oregonblue, as in little blue pill?

What are YOU compensating for, huh?

[SteveM]

91. There you go -- the ol' penis reference comes a-shakin' (nt)

[JonQ]

96. How about women?

Are they allowed to open carry? I mean, they probably don't want to be "real men" (whatever that means).

[safeinOhio]

15. Nothing more unsafe than OC

First, bad guys know you are carrying. Two, anyone can wack you from behind and take your gun. I don't care what you do, just think you are dumber than a rock to open carry.

[Statistical]

16. Of course since it is so easy you have hundreds of instances where that happened.

How about just one hundred? How about dozens? Ok I will settle for 3. Can you cite 3 examples where a criminal targeted someone open carrying an "wacked them from behind" and took the firearm.

[safeinOhio]

17. /Not a one

My advanced training instructor gave me that tidbit and it makes sense to me. Like I said, do what ever you want. I just can't for the life of me see why you'd want to carry not concealed. I carry to protect myself and others, not to show off. Surprise is my advantage. I use ever advantage I can come up with in life or death situations. I know cops that say they would never carry and want anyone to know they were armed, that is why they conceal their weapon when off duty. You might want to ask one why he conceals his or hers when off duty.

[PavePusher]

27. "I just can't for the life of me see why you'd want to carry not concealed."

Comfort.

Convenience.

Many places I am not required to beg permission from the government to exercise a Civil Right if I chose to O.C. C.C. is a licenced, taxed permission from the government in all but two states, Alaska and Vermont, forbidden entirely in Wisconson (O.C. only state) and Illinois (all carry forbidden), and heavily restricted (only the rich/famous/politically connected) in too many others.

Please note that O.C., despite any hand-wringing from the weak-kneed, has not lived up to the cries of "They'll steal your gun or shoot you first" as applied to non-LEO Civilians.

Why in the hell should I have to hide my exercise of a Civil Right? Do put your books in a brown paper bag when you go to/from a library?

Some police jurisdictions, off-duty officers are required to conceal by their departments. I don't understand that at all.

I don't understand how you equate self-defense to "showing off". Do you "show off" your First, Fourth, Fifth and Ninth Amendments rights when you walk down a public street without harrasment? Nope, you are just enjoying the freedoms of being in America. Welcome home, Citizen!

[paulsby]

42. in regards to your point about

"Some police jurisdictions, off-duty officers are required to conceal by their departments. I don't understand that at all."

in my state (and my agency doesn't require us to carry at all off-duty and doesn't tell us how to do it ) that would be arguably unconstitutional.

a police agency that prohibited their officer, while off-duty , from open carrying would be violating state constitution and precedent imo.

i have not heard of one in WA that has such a restriction, but there may be one out there.

in WA, open carry is clearly a civil right. it's black letter law

[PavePusher]

106. Adding info to point 3...

http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m9d10-Open-carry-101

[safeinOhio]

18. By the way, here you go

http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/crime/20040916/4/1119

It is a scenario that, while not commonplace, happens with enough frequency to alarm law enforcement professionals nationwide. Last year, 10 police officers were shot and killed in the United States after a suspect managed to get control of an officer’s weapon. Nearly one in five officers killed as part of a crime last year were shot with their own (or a partner’s) weapon, according to the National Center for Law Enforcement Technology - the highest number of such deaths in 18 years.

[PavePusher]

20. Has nothing to do with Citizen O.C.

Police are out looking for trouble... and regretably regularly find it. Your average self-defense Citizen... not so much.

Even if it was relevant, one data point does not equal a trend.

[paulsby]

45. as a cop, i say 100% true

it was a silly analogy. i have never in my entire career heard of one case of a cop being disarmed while they were just walking down the street, etc. it's ALWAYS during some sort of arrest/detention etc. and the analogy to citizens OC'ing is ridiculous. i've never , in 20+ years, heard of it happen even once.

it's a baseless worry.

[Euromutt]

21. How about examples of private citizens?

Gun grabs from police officers are typically committed while the officer is trying to restrain or arrest a suspect. I don't think I've every heard of someone grabbing a cop's gun and shooting him without provocation (or what passes for provocation in the suspect's mind).

Private citizens don't have to get up close and personal with criminal suspects as part of their daily routines, and thus aren't anywhere near as exposed to the risk of having their gun grabbed. Moreover, suspects know cops are carrying; where there's a uniform and/or a badge, there's a gun. By contrast, quite a lot of people who OC have through their entire day without anyone noticing that they had a handgun on their belt.

[safeinOhio]

19. More from article to consider

Even with substantial training, however, the danger is always present. To further protect officers, safety holsters – gun holders with a variety of mechanisms to help “lock” a gun in place – began to be developed in the 1970s. However there are trade-offs: Features that make it more difficult to disarm an officer can also slow down an officer’s ability to draw.

[Statistical]

23. There are very good retention holsters than do not substantially slow drawing.

Of course training is always key.

[PavePusher]

31. SERPA by Blackhawk is my current personal favorite.

Heck, even many police who know how they work, can't easily get a firearm out of someone elses retention holster. If I recall correctly, the majority of police shot with their own gun had the gun wrestled from their hand, not taken from the holster. I don't remember the source for that, and could well be wrong, but it sounds right to me.

[rl6214]

86. I like using a Fobus holster

It really makes it difficult for a gun to be easily taken out of the holster by someone in front of you or even behind you, it's designed so only the wearer can draw easily.

[Euromutt]

87. I think the holster in this video is a Fobus...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDeKtgkZKmQ

Ignore the sidebar commentary, but you might want to think again about OCing with that particular brand.

[Treo]

102. That was a FOBUS

But I also noted that the "victim" just stood there and llet him do it. It even looked like he was helping at one point
EDIT typo

[RamboLiberal]

116. I saw a live demonstration of this by a tactical firearms instructor

It's the rivets that allow a Fobus to be easily broken away. I wouldn't OC in a Fobus. Ok for range work, but not for defensive carry.

[Treo]

119. I don't doubt it

It's just that that one demo look really staged. I have a fobus holster somewhere I can't stand it

[rl6214]

109. I don't OC

It isn't legal in Texas, yet. I use my Fobus when I CC.

[Treo]

29. Does that include

All those stupid OCing cops?

Also can we get some evidence of OC'rs being targeted for their guns? I certainly never have

[safeinOhio]

44. Only thing worth more than your wallet

is that custom 911 on your hip. It is your right to carry all of your $100 bills where anyone can see them too.. Other than doing it because you can, no one has explained the advantage to OC over concealed. I have said it twice, I don't give a fuck what you do. Scream and yell all you want, you are at a disadvantage around bad guys. Other than screaming about your rights and ideology, you might try critical thinking for a change. I've said nothing, I repeat NOTHING about the right to OC. I will point out that it is stupid if you have the brains to pass the CCW class. This is what I carry. It doen't even look like a gun. I can keep it in my back pocket, looks like a wallet, and no one knows. However, I keep it in my front pocket. Just the way I want it.

http://www.seecamp.com/laser.htm

If I wanted to I could take your gun away from you in a second. I'd know you have one and there is no way you would know I did. In the wild west it was called "getting the drop on you".
By all means, please go ahead and carry that expensive cannon on your hip. It is your right where ever it is legal. I could give a shit.

[Treo]

55. I think you mean

1911, and I carry a CZ75B.

If I wanted to I could take your gun away from you in a second.

I gather you're the baddest dude on the internet

you are at a disadvantage around bad guys.
Can you document this statement?

I could give a shit.

That's fairly obvious, given the anger in your posts

[paulsby]

40. bad guys can get guns relatively easy

"wacking" an armed person to get theirs is stupid and exceedingly uncommon

i work as a cop in an open carry state.

in 20+ years, i have never heard of ONE case of somebody who was open carrying being assaulted and disarmed.

not one.

it's a baseless worry.

[safeinOhio]

58. Kind of the same thing

Many gun dealers have had their stores robbed at gun point even though there were openly displayed guns all over the place. Seems criminals would steal guns at gun point even when displayed in the open. If I wanted to steal guns I'd go after those that I knew had em.

[OregonBlue]

82. Well this is not about safety, it's about ego and those who are into proving how "tough" they are.

They can rationalize all they want, it doesn't change the fact that they are overcompensating. It doesn't change the fact that they are insecure, attention seeking idiots. Also note that most of the people on this site that are so pro open carry are newbies and probably trolls. I just wish they'd go find a nice Libertarian site to play on. They are a waste of time.

[Treo]

83. Where did you get your degree in Psychology again?

And how can us Newbies be trolls if we're following right down the line W/ what most of the established pro RKBA members of this forum are saying? The last time I checked a troll was someone who was trying to cause trouble and strife not agree W/ most of the people on the forum.

Or where you referring to the Antis that seem to leave so many drive by posts here in the "gungeon"

[OregonBlue]

98. The University of Washington as a matter of fact. I can only assume OC people drive big trucks or

Hummers to and we all know what that means. I assure you "most of the people on DU" do not agree with you. Please go find a nice Libertarian site you can haunt. It really would be more productive but then again, what with the Tea Parties coming up and all, I suppose you will be busy for a while. At least you will be with those who think like you and appreciate your "defense" of civil rights.

[Treo]

101. Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME

I can only assume OC people drive big trucks or Hummers

Ford Escort Wagon actually

assure you "most of the people on DU" do not agree with you.

Never said they did I specifically said the pro-RKBA types

[SteveM]

92. Lots of "facts" floating around out there...

Just because you use "overcompensating," "insecure," "attention seeking," etc. doesn't really prove any "facts." These are just your unsubstantiated opinions.

FYI, I don't open-carry, but have been around folks who do. It doesn't bother me or anyone around these other folks. And I don't get the sense that they are "overcompensating," are "insecure," or are "attention seeking."

[katandmoon]

36. And yet you would be arrested for showing your actual DICK in public. But a dick extension? A-OK!

[spin]

41. Are you still pushing that sad and lame supposed insult? ...

Come on, you can do better than that and actually engage in the discussion with some interesting arguments.

I don't mind the fact that you are opposed to firearms, that's fine. Good arguments and discussions are rewarding and worthwhile and often educational.

Merely insulting others does little to encourage debate and to a degree shows a lack of maturity.

Your insults bother me and most other gun owners like droplets of rain.

Come on, join the discussion with some good arguments. The Gungeon is beginning to lack good advocates for the anti-gun position.

There are plenty of valid arguments on your side of the issue. Do some research and present them. Google is your friend.

And remember, there are plenty of insults pro-gun people could hurl at anti-gun people. We just chose to be polite.

[SteveM]

94. Hey, the poster and too many other gun-constrollers love culture war.

They would rather engage in this crap than change things in the U.S. for the better.

[spin]

103. That's sad, we could work together to find solutions...

name calling reminds me of school kids on recess.

[paulsby]

46. PENIS CANARD

woohoo!

[Euromutt]

53. So move to New Mexico and get the law changed

This court ruling isn't about the legal status of open carry of a firearm; it's about how the cops can't hassle for doing something that's not illegal. Nullum crimen sine lege and all that.

But if you think it's just fine for law enforcement to manhandle, detain and threaten people for something that you personally think shouldn't be allowed, even if there's no law that says it's not, don't come crying to the ACLU when somebody arbitrarily sics the cops on you.

[Treo]

56. This may come as a shock

but there really are places in America where guns really ain't all that big a deal. People( except you) really do not give a crap if I OC
EDIT typo

[SteveM]

93. She's back! And brandishing as usual! (nt)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

95. I am embarrassed for you.

[paulsby]

37. as a cop i heartily agree

fwiw, we have had specific training in my agency to address this.

simply put - people open carrying are exercising a civil right and ANY stop/detention made of a person solely because they were carrying (absent reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, or a civil infraction) will NOT be tolerated.

fwiw, most cops i know in my agency are all for civilian carry, to include open carry.

ime it is citizens in rich neighborhoods who flip out when they see some guy walkin' down the street with a heater on his hip.

dispatch gets complaints and people are told it's LEGAL and they flip out

[safeinOhio]

52. Thats you

My instructor is a retired detective with 30 some years on the force. He gives CCW training and advanced training to police forces all over the state. He disagrees with you. He tells people not to OC for safety reasons. As a cop you know that there are very crazy people out there that do all kinds of crazy things. No one may ever take your gun from you. Great. That one time is all it would take, so for me, I feel safer concealed.
Of course those assholes that wore a gun, and carried an carbine to Obama rallies were in there right. Even the Presidents spokesperson said so. They are still assholes that were looking for trouble or attention.

[paulsby]

57. you misunderstand me

i am not saying that i think OC is a good idea.

i am saying that i, and most of the cops i know, fully support one's RIGHT to do so

do you grok the difference?

i don't OC off-duty. i carry concealed.

and i am well aware that anybody may try to take my gun from me. one of my coworkers had a naked deranged crack addict, get his from him, and shot him in the head , emptying the clip.

[safeinOhio]

62. I fully support the right to OC

I just think it is smarter to keep it concealed. Looks like that idea is frowned on here. I'm still sticking with it and only hope some of these people would consider the advantage. For just stating it I get raked over the coals like I'm against the Second Amendment, even though I take advantage of it every day.

[paulsby]

63. i can see where OC might be preferable

for example, on a camping trip. like if i was going to a park or something like that, then i could see it.

or hiking for example

stuff like that.

in an urbanized area, i think CCW is far preferable.

i don't think the 2nd amendment protects a right to carry OPENLY. i just think it protects a right to carry.

[Treo]

67. At the time

The second amendment was written weapons were generally carried openly.

[paulsby]

71. i agree with that

but i'm going with the plain text.

it simply says "right to keep and bear arms".

it doesn't say "openly or concealed"

my point is i think a state that has SHALL ISSUE CCW is not violating the 2nd, if they restrict it to concealed.

but i can see the other side of the argument, too.

i think any state that is not shall issue, is clearly in violation of the 2nd

i know that is not the opinion of the scotus... but they are wrong :)

[PavePusher]

78. Restriction=Infringement

I partly addressed that in post #27

[Treo]

60. He tells people not to OC for safety reasons

Even though he can't document a single case?

I feel safer concealed.

Response 1 So, because YOU feel safer CCing, I'm an idiot for OC?

Response 2 So, objective reality has nothing to do W/ this it's all about your feelings?

And a question

Since you (W/ no knowledge of me, my physical condition, any martial arts training I may have had or how flat out mean I may or may not be)can disarm me in a split second at whim, why do you even need to carry? Why not just wait till the BG draws and use your mad ninja skillz to take his gun?
EDIT TYPO

[safeinOhio]

68. I have no knowledge of your martial arts training etc.

Still if you OC I can get the drop on you. Lots of armored car drivers have been disarmed by the element of suprise. Any armored car hold up would document my case. Dat be objective reality dude.

[Treo]

73. Apples and oranges

Armored car robberies (by no means a frequent occurrence) are planned hits on specific targets. How often do you suppose some crack head on the street just happens to show up at 7-11 at the same time as Brinks and decides to knock over the truck?

The only thing that would validate your point is a large instance of Oc'rs being successfully attacked for their gun

[Statistical]

100. risk vs reward.

how many security guards, cops, soldiers, armored car drivers (or any other profession that open carries) has been disarmed FOR THE FIREARM.

Armored car drivers are disarmed for the contents of the armored car. They aren't singled out by criminals looking for an "easy" (most likely lethal) way to acquire a firearm.

They are targeted because the armored cars contents are very valuable.

If the armored car had nothing valuable armored car drivers would never be attacked.

The risk vs reward doesn't make it worthwhile.

Risks of attacking someone who is armed:
you get shot and killed
you get shot and goto hospital where you are arrested
you get shot attempt to aovi hospital and bleed out and die
you don't get shot but shots are fired and that attracts rapid police response and you get caught
you don't get shot take the weapon, get away but police still catch you and you do an extra 5 years for felony possession of firearm
you don't get shot, take the weapon, kill the OC and no just escalate a 2-5 year sentence (risk) to a 20-life sentence

Compare that to the lower risk and lower consequence of simply robbing the 99% of Americans who are not armed. Among those it is relatively easy to find someone weak, distracted, tired, drunk, lost, or high.

Armored car guards are attacked for the contents of the armored car not the guards firearm. If tomorrow every armored car driver was disarmed they would still be attack.... for the contents of the armored car.

[paulsby]

105. he's using the "feel" canard

which is usually used by anti-gunners. i am NOT a big fan of open carrying (in urban areas at least), but i support the RIGHT to do it on principal. regardless, using the "feel canard" is not QUITE as bad as the penis or need canard. but it smacks of emotionalism not logical argument

[spin]

43. Strangely, I've never seen a criminal carrying openly. (n/t)

[safeinOhio]

54. Damn, a few months ago

some idiot carrying a long gun in the open went into a museum in DC and killed a guard. Now I didn't see it either, just saw it on the news and in the papers.

[Treo]

65. And that same day

The other 100 plus MILLION legal gun owners in this country didn't

[safeinOhio]

70. WACK

your not thinking with your dipstick, Jimmy. He said criminals not legal gun owners.

[Treo]

79. I concede that point NT

[paulsby]

104. also note the convicted felon thang

convicted felons (and people subject to certain restraining orders, and people convicted of DV misdemeanors, etc.) are legally prohibited from carrying a gun.

most career criminals are convicted felons. by a long shot. i deal with them every day.

the local cops KNOW many of these players

the idea that a criminal (who was a convicted felon at least) would choose to OPEN carry is ridiculous.

if i see joe blow walk by with a gun on his hip, i keep driving

if i see johnny dirtbag, whom i know has 3 felony convictions, walk by with a gun on his hip, i arrest him for VUFA.

thus, i agree that it is highly suspect that a criminal (which usually means convicted felon, unless we are talking about petty stuff), would carry openly.

[Statistical]

110. Which is the reason why concealed carry was illegal in early history of the United States.

The earliest and most uniform "gun control" was a prohibition on concealing a firearm in public.

The thinking was if you have honest intentions why would you need to conceal a firearm?

[paulsby]

111. and i understand that

it sounds kind of quaint now, but it makes sense.

regardless, i think CCW works REMARKABLY well, even though it may have been illegal back in the day.

[Statistical]

112. Agreed. I support choice carry (open carry, conceal carry, no carry = your choice) n/t

[paulsby]

113. that is the TRUE liberal position

CHOICE. it's what's for dinner

[proteus_lives]

80. Great news!

I'm always happy to see a judge respecting and protecting the rights of the people!

[gorfle]

108. When I see someone open carrying, I assume the are a police officer of some kind.

I saw a woman in a restaurant yesterday at lunch wearing a pistol. I assumed she was carrying it in some official capacity. I didn't see any badges or anything though. Maybe she was just open carrying?

[RamboLiberal]

115. What state? - could very well be she was open carrying

I think most cops will usually have their badge displayed.

[gorfle]

117. alabama. n/t

.

[Israfel4]

121. All I have to say is that...............

Whether or not you "open" or "conceal" carry it is the carrier's RESPOSNSIBILITY to be aware of his/her surroundings at all times. I have heard a story where a POLICE officer was killed while eating lunch when someone came up from behind him and put a bullet in his head and then proceeded to kill his wife/girlfriend.

If you want to carry, that's fine, if you don't want to carry that's fine as well. No one is forcing you to carry, its YOUR choice NOT to carry, just don't strip away our RIGHT to carry just because you don't like it. Your fear is not our fear.

[aikoaiko]

122. Correct -- open carry in itself is not a threating action.

Even though the fear mongerers who frequent this forum would have you believe so.