It isn't about the money, or about stuff, it is about the violence.

[GreenStormCloud]

Routinely, whenever there is a discussion about an incident in which a person uses a gun to defend themselves, some of the anti-RKBA crowd will complain that the death penalty was dished out over a small amount of money. They say that over a TV, or over the small pain of a hangnail, we are ready to kill. They claim that for the crimes of assault, burglary, auto theft, etc. we are ready to kill.

That is not true. In each case, we are responding to a threat of deadly force with deadly force. When a robber pulls a knife and demands my money, he is displaying an instrument of deadly force with an announced intention to use it on me. Depending upon the disparity of force involved, even his fists may be deadly weapons. If a burglar is breaking into my residence, I have no way of knowing what he intends to do and I can't wait around to find out. When I am faced with a serious threat of deadly violence against myself, I am justified in using deadly force to repel the attacks. As soon as the threat is over, so is my justification for using or displaying deadly force of my own. If, in the event of stopping an attack upon myself or innocent others, the attacker dies, that is his bad luck. I did not shoot intending to kill him, but to render him incapable of further violence. If the medical system can save him so that he can be charged and tried for his crime, that is good.

It would be nice is the anti-RKBA crowd would actually discuss the issue instead of hurling insults, calling names, and making personal attacks. But I am not holding my breath. I might turn blue if I did.

[frebrd]

1. K&R! n/t

[proteus_lives]

2. Well said.

:thumbsup:

[AtheistCrusader]

3. WOULD I give a robber money if I knew they would then go away, and not harm me?

I don't know. I've never credibly considered it.

I will, under no circumstances, entertain a lein placed against my life by some fuck to extort money out of me. I do not trust such a person to honor the 'terms' of such a 'contract'. There is nothing in such a person's nature to justify any level of trust whatsoever.

I would proceed immediately to fight or flight. Chances are, I wouldn't even give them time to make their demand.

[GreenStormCloud]

4. Hypothetically, Yes, I would turn over the money.

If God Himself, (It's an idiom. Let's not start a religious discussion, please.)were to give me an ABSOLUTE GUARANTEE that the robber would peacefully depart, then I would turn over what money I have. I rarely carry much on me, anyway.

My reason is that it would be worth it not to have the memory of watching someone die from my bullets. Violent death is ugly. Also the money that I have on me is worth less than the money I would have to pay in attorney's fees if I shot someone. So I have two reasons. But in real life, God isn't going to give me that guarantee. And I have the robber making a credible threat that he will kill me if I don't comply, and my knowledge that compliance produces the greatest percentage of victim injuries. In real life, the fight is on. My gun is coming out and shooting as soon as I am on target.

[Tim01]

6. Some gunfight trainers suggest throwing money at the badguys.

It is considered a viable tool to some trainers.

Group of ruffians try to surround you in a dark alley, throw a $20 at them and tell them to buy themselves a drink. Keep the bill folded in your pocket so that it will fly far away from you as possible, or put it in a matchbook. While they are trying to figure out exactly what happened, and if it is real money, and how to split it up, you get away before things get out of hand.

So you loose $20 and maybe feel like a pussy. VS You spend the next 5 years in court and loose everything you own and maybe your family, trying to stay out of prison because you chose not to run away.

[Treo]

7. What are you doing in a dark alley in the first place ?NT

[GreenStormCloud]

9. OK. Mall parking garage at night. NT

[Tim01]

10. My personal police escort had a family emergency.

I had to take care of myself just like a grownup until they found a replacement.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. Traveling from point A to point B?

I go through whatever's closest.


Is it my fault if the shortest route isn't the safest? I ought to be safe ANYWHERE in the United States. I have a reasonable expectation to walk down the alley between 2nd and 3rd in Downtown Seattle at 2:30am on a work night, and not be accosted.

Someone may ask me for change. May ask me for a cigarette. May ask me for whatever. What they may not do, is demand something to forestall the threat of physical violence.

[Treo]

18. The point behind my question

I have always been trained that one of the responsibilities incumbent on anyone who carries a weapon is to do everything in your power to mitigate your chances of having to use it. Walking into a wonderful place for an ambush doesn’t meet that standard (IMO) that’s why I asked.

The best rule of thumb I’ve ever heard was this, “If you wouldn’t do it unarmed, don’t do it armed.”

[S_B_Jackson]

27. I was meeting friends for dinner at a local restaurant....

when I got there, I discovered that all of the parking in the front parking lot was taken. However, there was a sign that prominently advertised, "Parking in Rear"...so I parked in the rear and then walked through a short alleyway from the back of the restaurant to the front entrance...We had a pleasant evening, and stayed until the restaurant was closing at 10:00 p.m. As we walked out the front door all of my friends, who had arrived before I did, walked to their cars, I even escorted one of the ladies to her car, and then I proceeded back through the dark alleyway to the rear parking lot where I was accosted by said punks demanding my money. Good enough for you??????

Thankfully, I live in a "Castle Doctrine" state which - provided a shooting is deemed lawful - grants me civil immunity, and imposes NO DUTY TO RETREAT UPON ME. I'm simply minding my own business, it is my attackers who are the criminals. (at least in this hypothetical discussion)

[GreenStormCloud]

8. You have been reading Massad Ayoob?

He advises exactly that.

[Tim01]

12. He may have been cited as the source. I really don't remember. nt

[Euromutt]

22. But when he first wrote that, it was still $5

Inflation, eh? (Still, better inflation than unemployment, in my book.)

I think he first voiced that idea in In The Gravest Extreme, and suggested wrapping the bill around a matchbook to provide the necessary heft.

[GreenStormCloud]

23. That book is a classic of self-defense with a handgun.

At the time he wrote that, very few citizens could legally carry concealed. Now almost forty states have shall-issue laws. I read it in the early 1980's and still have a copy on my bookshelf. I looked up the passage. Chapter 12: The High Price of of "Handgun Machismo". It was "$5 or $10" dollars. $20 would be a minimum now.

He does need to write an update. Many firearms laws and court decisions have changed, and firearms that are available and ammunition have all changed.

Over and over in the book he stress avoiding situations that could lead to having to use the gun. Make trouble come to you, not you go to it.

[slackmaster]

11. Yes, I got that one in an edged weapons class

Throw your wallet on the ground. When the assailant reaches for it, you either make a run for it or attack furiously.

[spin]

17. My Jiu-Jitsu instructor said to carry a "throw down wallet"...

a wallet that had a $20 dollar bill and some $! dollar bills and a few outdated or canceled credit cards. He suggested giving the wallet to the mugger or throwing it on the ground if you felt the guy was only after your money. If however, you felt they guy might decide to hurt you even after you gave him you money, then you use the techniques he taught.

Jiu-Jitsu is basically street fighting with some judo, karate and Aikido thrown in.

[slackmaster]

19. That is an outstanding idea

:hi:

[spin]

21. He also advise women to keep their important items...

such as credit cards and drivers license in a separate wallet or a money belt, have a good strong purse and practice using it as a weapon. Women carry so much crap in their purses that they are often very heavy. Start slinging a purse with all that weight around and you can do some serious damage.

He also liked to show how a person could use a tightly wrapped magazine for self defense.

Of course, he emphasized situational awareness and always tried to stress not going to bad areas unless absolutely necessary and if something gives you a bad feeling - leave. The techniques he taught in class were designed to do a lot of damage in a very short time.

But similar to classes on concealed carry, he told us to never use these techniques unless absolutely necessary.

He also was very careful in his choice of the students he allowed in his class. If he suspected that an individual had an anger management problem, a dependence on alcohol or drugs or was looking for training to use in bar fights, he would not allow the person in his class.

[IWannaKnowWhy]

26. pretty good advice

"Of course, he emphasized situational awareness and always tried to stress not going to bad areas unless absolutely necessary and if something gives you a bad feeling - leave."

That right there is both the most important thing to do, and the hardest to accomplish.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. That is a good idea.

[Piwi2009]

28. Thats a good idea about the cancelled credit cards and checks

Keep current cards and checks at home and never carry em around until needed. If the robber gets cancelled cards and checks,
when they (or more likely their associates) try to use those, they will be thwarted and maybe get their pics on videocameras.
This is helpful to police.

Course, there are a lot of dumbasses behind store counters who don't ask for ID or don't notice expired cards.

[PavePusher]

5. It is exteremely odd...

that so many anti-gun people seem to trust criminals not to hurt them, but don't place the same trust in legal gun owners...

That says something about their logic and life philosophy that I find... disturbing.

[spin]

13. K&R (n/t)

[Treo]

15. what does "K&R" mean ?

[GreenStormCloud]

16. Kick and Recommended.

The poster emphatically agrees with the post and recommends the post. The he put K&R in the subject line as a post to make the thread go to the top of the topic forum for others to see.

[JonQ]

24. Yep, well said

Using lethal force in self-defense is often equated with individuals dealing out the death penalty. A terrible argument, it isn't a penalty, your concern is not about giving them their just punishment under the laws of the US, it's literally just self-defense.

[GreenStormCloud]

25. What happened to the anti's. I gave a thread and they didn't show.

Good thing I didn't try to hold my breath.