Nickels: Ban guns in places where kids go

[paulsby]

Source: seattle pi/komo news

Mayor Greg Nickels on Friday proposed a rule to ban guns in more than 500 Parks and Recreations Department facilities across Seattle where children and youth go - places like sports fields, playgrounds and swimming pools.

"These are the places where our children and families gather and it is common sense that community centers, playgrounds and swimming pools are safer without guns," Nickels said in a statement.Signs would be posted that say firearms are prohibited as a condition of entry into the facilities.

Nickels' announcement is his latest attempt to ban firearms from city property. The mayor began efforts after a man shot and injured three people at the 2008 Folklife Festival at Seattle Center. But an opinion issued late last year by Attorney General Rob McKenna's office said cities lack the authority to ban guns because local laws would conflict with state regulations.



Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/410303_guns18.html

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Mayor Nickels our resident scofflaw mayor proposes YET AGAIN to flout state law (which is pursuant to our state constitution) to try to impose a ban on firearms in various PUBLIC areas in seattle like playgrounds, pools, community centers, etc.

He previously proposed a ban in parks based on (unconstitutional ) EXECUTIVE ORDER making him george bush'ian in his use of same orders to flout the law. he did not succeed.

As a LEO in WA state, i am VERY familiar with firearms rights, and any cop who tries to "trespass" or prevent entry into any such facility because the person is wearing a firearm (and remember WA state is an open carry state as well as a CCW state) will face and should face a choice lawsuit aimed squarely at the city, which Seattle can ill afford.

Nickels needs to respect law and the state constitution and stop making clownish, impossible to implement, illegal proposals that , fwiw, would do NOTHING to curb violence, but would mean that no law abiding citizens could be armed.

[msongs]

1. well the calibre of people who get off blowing stuff up with guns are not gonna like this nt

[paulsby]

2. the caliber of people who respect rule of law and the constitution certainly won't nt

[The Straight Story]

25. And the people at acorn are all for child prositution

see how easy it is to blame all for the actions on some?

[PavePusher]

43. Ah yes, the ad hominem attack. Swing and miss, strike one. n/t

[tridim]

3. K&R for Mayor Greg Nickels

Sensible gun laws save lives.

[Treo]

10. Because criminals obey them so well? NT

[proteus_lives]

19. If this was sensible I'd agree with you.

But it's just bullshit-smoke blowing from the soon to be former mayor.

[rd_kent]

32. I would agree with you, yet this is not "sensible" nor will it save lives.

[AtheistCrusader]

80. Nickels is willfully VIOLATING STATE LAW

In other words, he's lining himself up to become a criminal. The State Attorney General has already told him this is illegal. This is going to end in a prosecution, and Seattle has bigger problems than this. In fact, our murder rate is pretty low, and trending down, so not only is his action illegal, it's irresponsible, and irrational.

[Treo]

4. Do you think this whack job will EVER learn? NT

[paulsby]

6. he's on his way out

and this is perfect example of posturing. he even knows it can never happen because it's illegal, but he doesn't care. it makes him look (to the ignorant) like he is doing something to prevent violent crime.

i know lots of SPD cops and none would be stupid enough to enforce such a ban

[Euromutt]

41. He is a lame duck, which is what makes me wonder...

Now that Nickels lost the primaries, he has nothing to lose politically. I wonder if he's taking the heat for passing this measure so that his successor doesn't have to. Or maybe it's just spite, who knows?

[RamboLiberal]

5. yep - bad guys really respect gun bans

That will sure stop any shootings.

:sarcasm:

[Xenotime]

85. Good grief. Give me a break..please.

[PavePusher]

86. Umm... You have evidence to the contrary? n/t

[Euromutt]

87. Give you a break how? And why?

Is it really so outlandish to observe that someone who doesn't intend to obey the law prohibiting armed robbery or aggravated assault is unlikely to be deterred by a lousy trespassing charge if he doesn't leave a city park after being asked?

What else is this measure supposed to achieve? To address the alarming rash of impulsive shootings in Seattle parks and community centers by people who were model citizens until they bought a gun and it used its mind-control power on them? There isn't one.

[noiretextatique]

7. god help us

the guy wants to ban guns where children and youth go...facist :sarcasm:
i wonder what kind of person needs a gun strapped on a chuck e. cheese to feel safe? i've walked many a city street at night without feeling the need to have a gun. but those town hall meetings may make me change my mind.

[Treo]

11. He's not trying to ban

Illegal guns (already banned by definition) he's trying to ban lawful owners W/ concealed carry permits from carrying legally in places where they are allowed to do so. The number of permit holders committing violent crimes is infinitesimally small. You do know that right?

[noiretextatique]

14. yep...you really need a gun a chuck e. cheese...right?

fucking utter insanity the idiocy about guns in this country.

[Treo]

20. probably not

Just like I’ll probably never need the fire extinguisher I have in my kitchen or the winter kit I keep in my car (Colorado) But if I ever do need them I’ll REALLY need them. Therefore I have them now. I’ve used a gun exactly one time in self-defense (no shots fired) that one time it was five of them and one of me. They had baseball bats and tire irons and made it crystal clear they were going to beat me just because they could. As soon as they saw my gun they took off (one was actually dumb enough to dare me to shoot as he was running away) and no one was hurt. Yup I’m a Nuckin’ Futs alright

[rd_kent]

35. OK, as long as it is ONLY at chuck e cheese.

But Im SURE you have more places to add to the list. Where does it end?

[rrneck]

39. You might consider another example.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122878081364889613.html

Chuck E. Cheese's bills itself as a place "where a kid can be a kid." But to law-enforcement officials across the country, it has a more particular distinction: the scene of a surprising amount of disorderly conduct and battery among grown-ups.

"The biggest problem is you have a bunch of adults acting like juveniles," says Town of Brookfield Police Capt. Timothy Imler. "There's a biker bar down the street, and we rarely get calls there."Text

Kind of an old article, maybe they're better now.

[PavePusher]

45. So, you are saying..

that kids will be safer at places where law-abiding Citizens can not carry guns? How does that work, I don't understand?

And you seem to be claiming that crime never happens/never will happen at Chuck-up Cheesy? Really? Care to prove that?

P.S., if your argument has merit, there is no need for profanity. Just trying to help your debate tactics...

[paulsby]

55. need canard

take 2

[slackmaster]

70. Existing state law bans guns at Chuck E. Cheese

Because alcohol is served there.

[Euromutt]

73. Not in Washington state

No guns in bars or any other place declared off-limits by the Washington State Liquor Control Board to persons under 21 years of age, but there's nothing to stop you carrying in establishments which incidentally serve alcohol. There's nothing to stop you drinking either, though if you're caught in public in possession of a firearm while Under the Influence you'd better have a good lawyer.

[AtheistCrusader]

81. Wrong.

Only in the areas with a posted sign of '21 and older', where alcohol is served. I assure you, Chuck E Cheese is not 21 and older. If there is a small bar somewhere inside, with this posted, that area of the establishment is off-limits to Concealed Carry, only.

[hack89]

71. So how does a law keep guns out of chuck e. cheese?

if someone wants to ignore the law? The illusion of safety is not real safety.

[SteveM]

78. If YOU need one, carry it after your are licensed. I don't need one there (nt)

[Retired AF Dem]

89. I bet people at Rubys

or Mickey D's in Stockton wished they had a gun.

[Treo]

90. Do you mean Luby's?

If so there were five people there W/ guns but they weren't allowed to bring them into the restaurant and four of them were killed

[Big_Mike]

17. Yep. Just like the folks at Luby's Family Restaurant in Killeen, TX

did not need to have weapons inside a family restaurant. So people who were armed did not carry them inside the restaurant, leaving the weapons in their autos. Then when the insane whack job drove his pickup into the restaurant and started killing 26 people and wounding 20 others, no one had a weapon with which to defend their families. So one lady got to watch her dad shot and killed because she was unarmed.

Never could happen in a Chuck E. Cheese's. Not a chance in hell. You are certainly right about that.

Forgive me as I am NOT willing to bet the lives of my children on that.

And BTW, the above is a 100% factual account. Google it. October 16, 1991, Killeen TX off W.S. Young Blvd. and US 190.

[Treo]

21. You left part of it out

There were four people aside from Susanna Gratia Hupp who had guns in their cars that day. The reason she's the one you hear about all the time is because the other four died.

[rd_kent]

33. You should remove the sarcasm tag

it it would be a very fascist thing to do.

[paulsby]

54. the need canard

take 1.

[Euromutt]

61. The problem isn't what citizens need or do not need, it's about the limits on mayoral authority

Very simply, what Nickels wants to do is in violation of state law (specifically RCW 9.41.290 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.290 and 9.41.300 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300) and the state constitution (http://www.leg.wa.gov/LawsAndAgencyRules/constitution.htm Article I, Section 24), and frankly, it's undemocratic how he's trying to ram it through by executive fiat instead of guiding it through the city council.

And in the larger scheme of things, various levels of government in this country have repeatedly argued, when sued, that they are not responsible for protecting individual citizens, and the Supreme Court has consistently ruled in their favor. If government refuses to be responsible for its citizens' safety, it cannot legitimately claim authority to deprive citizens of the means to defend themselves.

You think if someone gets mugged or assaulted on Seattle Parks & Rec property, the city will say "yes, we failed to adequately protect while on city property, we will pay for all damages"? Fat chance.

[SteveM]

77. Political puffery, a la San Fancisco...

Similar measures have been attempted in that city, and they are routinely swatted down by the court; just feel good stuff.

Like you, I can walk most of the streets of my city and "feel" safe without a gun. But if you are uneasy about town hall meetings, I would suggest you take other action than packing a firearm. Such a "strategy" is reactionary. I keep my guns close at-hand in my home where I would be at a disadvantage if someone were to break in. On the street? That takes a calm and reasonable weighing of risks, not a reaction to some right-wing blow hole.

[movonne]

8. I don't think people should be allowed anywhere except their homes, firing ranges,

hunting area's...but not walking our streets, parks, president's speechs...since when are guns part of our dress code...flame away...

[Treo]

12. But that's not going to happen

so how about a viable option?

[noiretextatique]

15. it's insane...the proliferation of guns and the ever-expanding list

of places where one can carry. utter fucking insanity.

[Treo]

22. Why is it insane?

You do realize that in the two lowest body count mass shooting events that have happened in this country (New life church and Logan Utah) it was a private armed citizen that stopped the shooter don't you?

[spin]

31. What is truly insane is the number of illegal guns being carried..

on our streets.

But the solution of the anti-gun people is to oppose licensed and trained individuals with a background check from carrying concealed.

Quite often when a repeat felon is caught illegally carrying a weapon the charge is plea bargained away. The bad guy gets a slap on the wrist, so he continues to carry until he loses control and finally blows some innocent person away.

Seriously you need to read some stats about people that carry concealed firearms.

I suggest you check the official Florida site for concealed weapons and look at their monthly report.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

First notice that the report covers a period from 10/1/87 - 8/31/09. That a LONG time.

Second notice how many concealed carry permits have been issued in Florida during that time. 1,593,602.

Now look toward the bottom of the report and read have many licenses were revoked for a crime after Licensure where a firearm was utilized. That figure is 167 licenses revoked over a 23 year period out of 1,593,602 issued.

No, those who carry don't sit on clouds playing harps and picking lice off each others' wings, but they come damn close.

[PavePusher]

47. And yet the national crime/gun death rates...

keep dropping.

How do you explain that?

[paulsby]

56. and yet guns proliferate and violent crime goes DOWN

gun laws are much looser (more states have adopted right to carry) over the last couple of decades. guns are also far more prevalent

and crime has gone DOWN!

i'm not saying it's a causal connection. but it certainly casts doubt on the reverse claim that "proliferating" guns and those pesky freedom respecting gun laws cause crime

[rrneck]

40. I appreciate your sentiment but

the reason most people carry firearms is that muggers and rapists don't confine themselves to the backwoods and shooting ranges.

Although they do invade homes with fair regularity.

[PavePusher]

46. It reads:

"Keep AND Bear..."

Please try again.

[Euromutt]

84. Actually, it reads:

The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, <...>

"It" in this case being Article I, Section 24 of the Washington State Constitution. Even less equivocal.

[Statistical]

50. Simple solution stay in your home.

Private property you own is not subject to restrictions on infringement that public land is.

[paulsby]

57. restrictions on public lands

are subject ot that pesky constitution. the 1st, 2nd ... amendments etc.

this land is OUR land, and we have a constitution.

also, WA state's constitution (all 2nd amendment wanking aside) is CRYSTAL clear on gun rights

[slackmaster]

67. I don't think people should be allowed anywhere at all

That would solve everything.

[auditguy]

9. certainly work well at Columbine...eom

[katandmoon]

13. What kind of fucking moron disagrees with protecting kids from guns?!

[proteus_lives]

16. This doesn't protect kids from shit.

What kind of fucking moron tries to take away the rights of others?

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rd_kent]

37. Can you define a "gunworshipper"?

Im an atheist, s I dont worship shit. I am, however, a law abiding citizen that chooses to exercise his Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

What are you?

[proteus_lives]

51. Nuts I got back too late. What did she say?

She's usually sex-obsessed so I'm guessing, penis canard?

[SteveM]

79. Oh, you had to bring it up! (nt)

[Treo]

23. it doesn't protect kids it disarms citizens NT

[katandmoon]

24. Bullshit.

[Treo]

27. Ok tell us how it protects kids.

Tell us how some one that wants to kill a kid is going to be stopped by a gun ban.

Or will you just drive by as usual

[katandmoon]

29. Tell us how a kids is going to be protected?

[Treo]

30. You're the one who contended

That this (illegal) legislation would protect kids It's up to you to prove that statement.

[rd_kent]

38. No one said it would protect kids.

But you seem to think it will not protect kids. If all you have to add is "bullshit" then you are an ignorant ass with nothing to say.

[spin]

34. Bullshit? Let me show you some examples...

Virginia Tech thus went out of its way to prevent what happened at a Pearl, Miss., high school in 1997, where assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieved a handgun from his car and apprehended a school shooter. Or what happened at Appalachian Law School, in Grundy, Va., in 2002, when a mass-murder was stopped by two students with law-enforcement experience, one of whom retrieved his own gun from his vehicle. Or in Edinboro, Pa., a few days after the Pearl event, when a school attack ended after a nearby merchant used a shotgun to force the attacker to desist.

I'll pull just one example from Wikipedia to back up the above paragraph in case you dislike the source.

The incident began on the morning of October 1, 1997 when Luke Woodham fatally stabbed his sleeping mother, Mary Woodham. At his trial, Woodham claimed that he could not remember killing his mother.

Woodham drove his mother's car to Pearl High School. Wearing an orange jumpsuit and a trenchcoat,<1> he made no attempt to hide his rifle. When he entered the school, he fatally shot Lydia Kaye Dew and Christina Menefee, his former girlfriend. Pearl High School Band director, Jeff Cannon, was standing five feet away from Dew when she was fatally shot. He went on to wound seven others before leaving through school and intending to drive off the campus. However, assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham inside his mother's car. Then Myrick demanded "Why did you shoot my kids?". Woodham replied "Life has wronged me, sir".<2>

Minutes before he started the shooting, he gave the following message to a friend<3>:

"I am not insane, I am angry. I killed because people like me are mistreated every day. I did this to show society, push us and we will push back. ... All throughout my life, I was ridiculed, always beaten, always hated. Can you, society, truly blame me for what I do? Yes, you will. ... It was not a cry for attention, it was not a cry for help. It was a scream in sheer agony saying that if you can't pry your eyes open, if I can't do it through pacifism, if I can't show you through the displaying of intelligence, then I will do it with a bullet."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

Did you notice:

The principal had to walk to his car to get his .45 auto. Perhaps if he would have been allowed to carry his firearm concealed or have it in a safe in his office, fewer kids would have been shot.

[paulsby]

58. whereas WA state has LEGAL firearms on campus

and i haven't seen any mass shootings there.

causality? not necessarily, but it casts doubts on the claims that we NEED to ban guns from campuses.

carry on WA state campuses works just fine, thx

[slackmaster]

66. Eloquent response, katandmoon!

What other pearls of wisdom and civility would you like to share with us today?

[spin]

72. Looks like she's just a drive by poster. (n/t)

[Treo]

74. Is she ever NOTjust a drive by poster? NT

[Euromutt]

62. Thereby depriving said citizens of the option of using their guns to protect their kids

The reason I started carrying was to be able to protect my (now 3 year-old) son when we're out and about, both in the neighborhood, at the park, etc. There are some aggressive dogs a few streets away and their idiot owners let them run loose; and the Federal Way PD has deployed dual-sport bikes to patrol the parks and trails over the summer in response to increased crime, which happens to be where I take my kid.

[rd_kent]

36. What kind of fucking moron thinks that this protects kids from guns?

[S_B_Jackson]

63. What kind of fucking moron believes that this will protect kids?!?

This is simply political mummery. It's not going to stand review as it violates the state constitution, and Seattle's coffers will be drained of millions of dollars that could be used to better effect elsewhere.

[slackmaster]

65. Banning guns doesn't protect kids from people who are inclined to misuse guns

Bans only affect people who live by the rules.

That is the sad truth about the whole thing.

[JonQ]

75. What kind of fucking moron

believes this will actually protect kids?

If all it took to protect kids from gun violence was to outlaw guns in their vicinity why not outlaw adults being proximal to children and put an end to child abuse forever? You don't want kids to be abused do you?

Also ban swimming pools (diabolical devices that kill far more children than guns) from coming with 100ft of anyone under 18.

What, you want kids to drown? That's sick man, just sick.

[krispos42]

76. Me strapping iron onto my hip is not threatening kids

Therefore preventing me from strapping iron onto my hip is not protecting kids.

[rl6214]

88. What kind of fucking moron disagrees with protecting kids WITH guns?

[proteus_lives]

18. Good luck with that Mayor Pennies.

Meaningless "look at me!" tactic from politician.

[crim son]

28. What about gun shows?

There are kids at those.

[billh58]

42. This is not

directed at the OP, but to many of the respondents: it's so nice to see the civility which so eloquently advances each side of this controversy.:sarcasm:

To those of you who attempt to educate and patiently explain your reasoning -- thank you.

[PavePusher]

48. Overwhelmingly, the pro-2A folks here do keep it civil.

You might notice that the first people to use profanity and personal attacks are invariably the anti-2A people. When the pro's answer in kind, it is almost always after much provocation. That doesn't give the anti's much of a leg to stand on.

[billh58]

49. True dat... n/t

[rrneck]

52. I wonder why.

Are they trying to run off the gun owners as if this were their own private sandbox? Or maybe that's the way they think they have to respond so aggressively because they think that's how gun owners talk to each other. Do people really think all gun owners are toothless rednecks?

Back when I delivered office furniture we had to park the truck in a handicapped spot to unload since there was simply no place else. We made sure there were plenty of other spaces open and one of us always stayed next to the truck just in case. Before we could leave a fellow came by and bawled us out for using a space. He was clearly afraid of a confrontation with two furniture movers. Little did he know he was dressing down a four eyed artist and a Nazarene preacher.

[paulsby]

59. this is nothing new in seattle

seattle wants to become it's own feifdom immune from rule of law and that pesky state constitution.

seattle city council has certainly expressed dissatisfaction with the fact that any ole person can get a gun permit in WA state.

and mayor nickels has REPEATEDLY (This is not the first time) claimed he was going to invoke some kind of executive order (yes, he used those words) or other such claptrap to break state law and the state constitution and ban guns at various city locales.

[slackmaster]

68. I think it's a form of projection

They fear guns because of what they are afraid they would do if they had one. They assume that anyone who has a gun intends to use it in a harmful or irresponsible way, because that's what they think they would do.

I see it as a manifestation of emotional immaturity and instability. Their personal decisions not to own guns are sound ones, but they assume incorrectly that everyone else has the same defects that they do.

[rrneck]

69. Yeah. A lot of posts

that appear here are attempts to bait someone just to get an opportunity to "unload" on them. You fight like you train and anybody with that attitude certainly doesn't need to own anything more dangerous than a butter knife.

Of course none of us really knows each other and I sense that at least a few posters have suffered because of firearms and there is some transference (if that's the correct term) onto the object as well. I am frequently moved more to pity than to anger at what I see here.

[paulsby]

82. what do you mean by "suffered because of firearms"

one of my best friends was murdered by some convicted felon assmunch murdering gangbanging asshole.

i suffered greatly, but it wasn't the firearm that caused him to die. it was the guy behind the trigger.

[Scout]

83. gee, i thought only "grabbers" got all freudian and tried to use psychology

:rofl:

i own a gun and i'm not at all afraid of what i would do.

[X_Digger]

44. I would respect his actions if he tried to change the state constitution..

I wouldn't agree with him, but I'd at least respect him for working inside the legal system set out to change the rules.

*sigh*

[Euromutt]

53. Yeah, pretty much

The problem with Nickels' course of action is less that it's obviously wrong-headed (even though it is) and more that he tried to ram it through by executive fiat, in obvious violation of the state pre-emption statute and the state constitution.

[paulsby]

60. he's like george bush in that way

if you can't do it constitutionally, claim executive privilege

here's a hint, nickels. your (soon to be over) executive position doesn't give you the right to eliminate the rights of WA state citizens

in or out of seattle

hth

[slackmaster]

64. Of course the ban wouldn't apply to certain city employees

:argh: