So, I just got a late night call

[quakerboy]

It turns out that my dad, the man who wouldn't let me have the little guns that came with my GI Joe's as a kid because he didn't want me to ever think of a gun as a toy, just blew his hand apart with one of his own guns. He has good insurance and lives across the street from a hospital, so things could be a lot worse. But maybe there comes a time in life where personally having guns is no longer appropriate, even if one continues to believe in the necessity of the second amendment as a counterweight to the power of government.

What the hell? This is my dad, the point man on gun safety. What the hell?

[Ken Burch]

1. People can be experts on safety and still hurt themselves. Happens all the time

If I might ask, how old is your father?

And what, if you were able to find this out, was he doing with the gun at the time?

I'm sorry for his injury and for the stress this must have caused you, but that information, if you choose to share it,
would make it easier to assess what happened here.

[quakerboy]

9. Just got back from the hospital

He was trying to drop a clip, in preparation to try several new ones he had just purchased. The shock has removed some details of the incident, and he is not sure exactly what happened, but he knows that it was his own fault in being inattentive and having apparently cocked the gun with one in the chamber. He is only in his 60's. But still. This shakes my confidence that everything is "ok" a lot

[lillypaddle]

2. That's awful

Thank goodness it was "just" his hand, although his life will probably never be the same again.

[slackmaster]

3. That's a bummer - What happened?

Was it some kind of a mechanical failure, or a failure to observe safe gun handling procedures?

But maybe there comes a time in life where personally having guns is no longer appropriate...

Is he having age-related physical or mental problems? I certainly agree that it becomes inappropriate to handle firearms, perhaps about the time one can no longer drive a car safely.

[Tim01]

4. Was he disassembling a Glock? Happens a lot with them. nt

[quakerboy]

10. Beretta

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

24. Seeing as how you have to pull the trigger to dissassamble...

I'd say you're right! LOL.

[safeinOhio]

5. Treat every gun as if it is loaded

never point muzzle at what you do not intend to shoot.
Always keep your booger hook off of the bang lever.

Gun safety should be mandatory, because most accidental deaths come from unloaded guns.

More people die from car accidents. We don't ban cars, we test and license drivers.

[spin]

6. There are two types of shooters...

those who have had an accidental discharge and those who will.

Never point the firearm at anything you don't want to destroy.

[gorfle]

12. I disagree with your assertion.

There are two types of shooters...those who have had an accidental discharge and those who will.

In my opinion, this is a cop-out for people who have been lax about gun safety so they can feel better about themselves for it.

My father has owned guns his entire life, is now 62, and has never had a negligent discharge. I have had firearms my entire life, and I'm now 40 and I have never had a negligent discharge.

I am extremely safety conscious with firearms. I always assume they are loaded and treat them as such. I always check the chamber of every firearm I pick up, every time. There has never been a firearm in my hands that I did not know for a fact what it's loaded state was, and of course I still treated them as if they were loaded.

There is no such thing as an "accidental" discharge. There is only negligence.

[Euromutt]

15. Accidental discharges do exist, but they're vanishingly rare

I think you can legitimately class an unintentional discharge as accidental if it's caused by a mechanical malfunction on the part of the firearm. But the only example I can think of involves WWII-vintage Sten guns; what would sometimes happen is that when a soldier jumped out of a truck with the weapon cocked (bolt locked back, as is standard with a SMG firing from an open bolt), the butt of the gun would strike the ground on landing, causing the bolt to jar loose, which in turn caused the gun to fire. On automatic. Not fun for the guys behind who were still disembarking.

But Sten guns were, bluntly, cheap crap, made to be cranked out as quickly and cheaply as possible (not for nothing were they referred to as "Stench gun" the "Woolworth gun"). The overwhelming majority of guns in civilian hands in the US are of better quality.

I have to tentatively agree with you regarding the "two types of shooters" line. I did my basic training in the Dutch army shortly after a career NCO had been killed by an ND (from a 25mm gun on a YPR-765 IFV http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIFV, no less) and our instructors really drummed firearm safety into us. My squad's senior instructor had this way of sucking air in through his teeth which was a dead giveaway that you were heavily at risk of screwing up, and to this day, whenever I find I'm starting to do something dangerous with a firearm, in my mind I hear Sergeant Damhuis doing his tooth-sucking thing and stop what I'm doing.

And I haven't fucked up so far, touch wood.

[spin]

21. I knew a WWII shooter at the range I used to shoot at...

who loved Colt .45 autos. He had shot firearms all his life and was a competitive shotgun shooter with trophies from numerous events.

We were talking about accidental discharges one day, and he mentioned that while in the process of clearing his .45 he had an AD. He said the bullet passed through a wall and hit his washing machine. He ended up with a hole in the tub, but he said he was lucky that it was in the top of the tub. Since he lived alone, he only ran small loads of laundry.

Many of the stories I've heard about ADs are humorous and none were tragic, The most important thing while handling a firearm is to never point the muzzle at something you don't want to destroy.

[Treo]

22. I've been the victim of an ND

But I've never had one and I'm absolutely anal about gun safety

[rd_kent]

7. Sorry to hear about your dad.

Can you give more details on what happened?

[proteus_lives]

8. Well, if your dad is old and losing his marbles....

He shouldn't have a gun, car or access to his bank accounts.

[quakerboy]

11. Thats the thing

Just got back home. Even under painkillers, he still seems very competent otherwise.

I don't know what it is, but guns are the only thing bringing out this strange "crazy" in him. Over the past 5 years or so, I have become concerned, because his already numerous collection more than doubled, rapidly. And he is not one of the stockpiling kooks, the new ones are all older collectibles. My main concern came in at the "he just retired and has limited income now" part, and the "too many guns to fit in safes so now there are unsecured guns lying around his residence" part. Both of which go against everything he ever taught me about gun safety and about taking care of your family.

But this sure looks like the edge and over to me. Shooting himself, with my mom in the room, and only by sheer luck not the victim is not OK. I don't know what to say to him, but something has to be said.

[gorfle]

13. Define "strange crazy"

In what way is he acting "strange crazy"? Buying and collecting firearms is not "strange crazy". Accidentally shooting yourself is definitely a case of negligence, and definitely warrants better attention to firearm safety, but is not necessarily indicative of mental incompetence.

Even keeping unsecured firearms around your house is not crazy. If you have no children around it's not that big of a deal. I think the more responsible thing to do is to put them in a cheap gun safe (I just bought a 14-gun safe for $150), but frankly they are not much more protected against theft in such a safe than they are just locked up in your home.

[quakerboy]

18. I think that

When you are on a very limited income, spending beyond your means to reach triple digit numbers is somewhat irresponsible. That is a strange crazy from a man who taught me to live within my means, to make choices, to always make sure that I did everything I could to make sure my family was taken care of. On this, I would feel the same if he had taken up collecting vintage autos, beanie babies, or slide rules.

I also think that, from a man who has spent his life slightly paranoid, trying to keep it secret from virtually everyone the fact that he owns guns because "when people know, they may come to steal them, and it would be irresponsible to let them fall into the hands of someone who might use them for ill", suddenly having a plethora of unsecured guns, in multiple residences (they "own" a home in one state that they only see a few times a year, and have a rent free residence provided where they currently live in another. Both are getting increasingly close to being "littered" with unsecured weapons) also qualifies as a strange crazy. And they do aim to host family events and community events. My mother maintains a stock of young kids toys for such events.

Those are both things that would NOT have been deemed acceptable by the man who raised me just a few years ago. Something has changed, and I was starting to feel that it was on the edge of being a real problem before this incident, but struggling with what place I had in this situation. Now, having shot himself, I feel that it is over that edge. But I am still struggling with what my roll in this is.

[Treo]

23. Your role in this

is "Bystander". Your father is an adult, unless you can prove that he's not of sound mind, he's of sound mind and even then you're not his guardian.


When you are on a very limited income, spending beyond your means to reach triple digit numbers is somewhat irresponsible

You are aware, are you not, that guns are doing better than 401(K)s right now right?

What your father spends his money on isn't your business

EDIT incredibly stupid spelling error

[proteus_lives]

16. I hope he's ok but you probably need to talk to him.

If they are older collectibles, a sudden increase in collecting (especially with limited income) could a sign of unhappiness or depression. I don't the shooting was on purpose, he's old and accidents happen but you should still talk to him.

[Euromutt]

14. I don't know what to tell you, except that I hope he makes a speedy recovery

FWIW, I suspect removing the magazine but forgetting to clear the chamber is the most common cause of NDs.

[krispos42]

17. Jesus, that's terrible!

I hope he heels quickly and completely.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. Early stage alzheimers?

Or some other form of dementia? Sounds like you've discovered a serious change in his life-long behavior. Never a good sign. My Father the industrial electrician couldn't properly wire up a bathroom outlet, not long before the diagnosis. Something that wouldn't have even made sense as a joke 10 years prior.

I'd encourage him to get it checked. I understand there is a test for it. My father refused, so we ended up finding out for sure, post mortem.


Removing all ammunition from the equation might be a start, if all the firearms won't fit in their safes. And/or get him another safe for whatever occasion.

[Hoopla Phil]

20. Very sorry to hear about this. Best wishes on a recovery.

[Statistical]

25. Sorry to here about this.

Just reinforces that firearms have tremendous power and when misued can have devastating consequences.

The 4 laws must be followed always, all the time.

http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

I say this not as a slap on your dad when he is down but rather a PSA to all other gun owners.