I don't place any blame on Mike Huckabee. None whatsoever.

[sharesunited]

I don't blame Mike Huckabee for commuting the sentence of the Seattle gunman.

I blame Associate Justice Antonin Scalia for the availability of the gun.

It was Scalia who wrote the majority opinion in the Heller decision.

It is Scalia who has attempted to give the patina of constitutional legitimacy to an individual right to own guns and ammunition, making it impossible to shut down the gun trade.

The proliferation of guns and ammo is the only societal problem on display in this case, and no amount of spin by gun lovers can obscure that fact. The same ease by which guns and ammo are made available for lawful purchase makes them available for unlawful purchase. Banned in Chicago? Just drive to Indiana. How far is Indiana? Not far. Banned in the District? Just drive to Virginia. How far is Virginia? Not far.

Scalia might as well have personally shot those four officers in that diner himself, as guilty as he is for contributing to the problem which caused their deaths. He is bathed in their blood.

[bbinacan]

1. Scalia might as well have personally shot those four officers in that diner himself, as guilty as he

:eyes:

[xchrom]

2. recommend

[AtheistCrusader]

36. I wish we could see how big a rec crater this thread made.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

3. You really need some help.

[sharesunited]

4. We need judicial help, and we need it now.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

6. Heller is the law of the land for the next 30 years or so. I love it!!!!

[sharesunited]

8. You are an eternal mystery, Dave.

If your screen name identifies your profession (and I think you said it does), then you see the worst of it out there.

Yet you insist that the harm guns and ammo are causing is all worth it, by literal virtue of the righteous empowering of the meek it somehow enables.

I still say that COMMERCE in this scourge can be strongly restricted consistent with Heller, and if I were sponsoring cases that is the direction in which I would go.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

10. Legal ownership is worth all of it.

[sharesunited]

13. That's it? Why? Because it satisfies some hunger or other deficiency in your soul?

Peace of mind that your little friend can assure you go down fighting?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

14. Freedom.

[sharesunited]

16. Hey, man. Koresh thought firearms guaranteed freedom too.

That line of thinking can put you under siege and get you killed.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. I'm sure it was that and not that he thought he was a god.

[proteus_lives]

31. He's an authoritarian. He doesn't like that word.

He prefers control.

[Katya Mullethov]

51. Authoritarian ?

It's parody account .

[Paladin]

63. What "Freedom" Would That Be?

In case you haven't noticed, this country's freedoms are disappearing at an alarming rate, and the ownership of guns is doing exactly fuck-all to slow that process down. If you're satisfied with equating "freedom" with "wish fulfillment," i.e., the chance to shoot a Bad Guy and be able to brag about it in the DU Guns forum later, that's one thing. But in terms of real, crucial freedoms, no administration in this country's history ever did more deep and lasting damage than Bush/Cheney---and the gun militancy movement embraced Bush/Cheney in spite of it all, in return for some assurances about the only part of the Bill of Rights that ever seems to count with them, the almighty Second Amendment. If that's enough to constitute "freedom" for you, I think you're too easily satisfied......

[eqfan592]

64. Oh, that makes sense.

By your logic, then none of the Amendments did "fuck-all" to slow that process down. So are they all just useless then? No, of course not.

And I think if you took a straw poll of the gun owners around here, you'd find that most, if not all of us did NOT support Bush/Cheney. Though then again, I don't think any of us are part of any so-called "gun militancy" movement. But we do all strongly support the 2nd Amendment, and something tells me you like to lump all those folks together under one name.

It's time for you to get a clue man, in a serious way.

[PavePusher]

65. Simple explaination.

"...and the ownership of guns is doing exactly fuck-all to slow that process down."

Because 'we' haven't actually used them to stop the process yet. Do you want that to happen sooner, or later? You choose.

[Remmah2]

49. Freedom of choise/

Better to go down fighting then to go down like a lamb at the slaughter.

[rd_kent]

66. spell check, brother, spell check.

[Paladin]

61. Gee, What A Nice Sentiment.

How about sending sympathy cards to the families of those four dead police officers, informing them that "Legal ownership is worth all of it." See if that lifts their spirits any......

[eqfan592]

62. Given that it would seem neither of the shooters were "legal" gun owners....

...I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here?

[paulsby]

17. i'm with him

i used to be a firefighter/medic, am now a cop. used to be (prior to these jobs) pro gun control. after all, in college and my community, practically all i was exposed to was the antirkba arguments.

my experience, combined with my study of the constitutional law aspects, has led me to be pro-RKBA.

fwiw, most patrol officers i know, iow people who deal with crime firsthand are pro-RKBA.

[sharesunited]

19. That's a principled attitude after four in uniform get massacred.

It reminds me of what I always say in these circumstances:

Such A Tragedy, Now Carry On Dying Ya'All.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. Paulsby is a police officer.

[paulsby]

24. and i have yet to have any of my coworkers

say that this event changed our mind about RKBA. RKBA allows (almost always) law abiding citizens to possess firearms for their protection.

this guy was a multiple convicted felon. right to carry didn't help him, and WA is a right to carry state. heller didn't affect this either.

one of my best friends, a cop , was murdered by some felon assmunch with an illegal gun. that guy wasn't facilitated by RKBA either.

[Euromutt]

42. Endlessly repeating your mantra doesn't give it validity

It just make you look like an annoying twerp with a one-track mind that's firmly closed to evidence. You've come up with your little soundbite that you think is so fucking clever, so you keep on mindlessly repeating it. Why don't you fuck off and talk to a mirror? At least there you'll find the one person who gives a shit about your disgusting, ghoulish, self-righteous opinion.

Are you willing to walk up to a Lakewood cop or Pierce County sheriff's deputy and tell them to their face what you said in the OP? Go on, I fucking dare you.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. For the record I have treated many GSWs none were from a legally possessed firearm.

[proteus_lives]

29. Me too!

:thumbsup:

[Tejas]

44. That sounds too much like

wanting to actually do something with criminals instead of blaming guns, knives, 2x4's, poison,.......


Somebody check the temperature in Hell, no way a grabber would start blaming the perp instead of an inanimate object!

[ThatPoetGuy]

5. Wut?

R u tryin 2 take mY gun zaway?

Outta my coaled, dead hanz!

But seriously, arguing a gun-rights point on DU is moot. The gun-lovers won't understand anything you say, and DU's gun-lovers provide the best possible argument for gun control; many of them, to judge by their convoluted, self-serving logic, wouldn't be capable of handling a jelly donut safely.

[benEzra]

26. Well, your choice not to own guns may be the correct one for you.

My wife and I both choose differently. We'll retain that choice, thanks.

And FWIW, I shoot competitively, have well over 20 years' experience as an avid shooter, and could pass the firearm quals of most state police agencies with relative ease, but keep believing we're all a bunch of incompetents if it makes you feel better.

[eqfan592]

33. Speaking of "convoluted, self-service logic," I submit ThatPoetGuy's post for examination. (nt)

[PavePusher]

54. Logic? What? Where? n/t

[rl6214]

37. What a fning moron.

[rd_kent]

67. We dont understand it because it makes no sense.

Much like your post, the gun-grabber meme has no actual logic, facts or reason behind it. THATS why we wont understand what you say. Please point out where anyone in this forum that is PRO-2A that does not have a rational argument backed up with facts?

[Pavulon]

7. I blame god or darwinian evolution (you choose)

for creating a person whose ability to construct a rational thought is so thoroughly missing.

[Travis_0004]

9. How about we blame the shooter instead?

If guns were not available and somebody stabs some people, do we blame the knife manufactures?

If he used a pipe bomb, do we blame home depot?

England has banned most guns, and they are on an island, yet they still have problems with guns. If they can't solve their gun control problems under ideal situations, how do you think the Heller ruling, even if it went the other way would have changed anything?

We need to go after the people who commit those crimes not just target everybody. He was given too many chances. He probably shouldn't have be let out by Huckabee in 2000, and even less so in 2004.

If guns are responsible for murders, then spoons are responsible for making Rosie ODonnell fat.

[sharesunited]

11. You are obscuring the efficiency and convenience of guns and ammo.

The shooter has a history of impulsive recklessness. He is not a bomb maker.

I would put four cops up against a knife wielding madman asshole any day.

Spoons? You are really belittling the brutality of this crime with THAT one!

[paulsby]

22. there are over 200 million guns in the US

heller or not, if the guy wanted a gun, he'd get it.

he;'s a multiple time convicted felon, currently wanted by both arkansas and WA. (assuming the POI actually did the crime).

heller didn't make it easier for him to get a gun. he can't legally get a gun, and WA is a "shall issue" state anyway. heller has not changed the availability of guns in WA state one iota.

heller didn't go as far as mandate "shall issue", but we ARE a shall issue state.

the second that this assmunch acquired his gun, he was committing a felony (VUFA) as soon as he acquired it, not to mention violation of federal law

[notesdev]

12. This might surprise you

but making guns illegal doesn't make them unavailable.

All you do is disarm innocent people.

VA Tech had a no-guns-on-campus policy. So did Ft. Hood. So did D.C. when that guy went in there and started shooting people, as it also did when the sniper was terrorizing the area.

It just doesn't work. What does work is keeping people with a bakers' dozen of violent felonies in jail. The justice system completely failed, with a major assist from Gov. Huckabee.

[sharesunited]

15. You don't make the connection between VA Tech and Virginia?

Virginia. One of the most gun worshipping states in the Union.

Did that shooter bring them in from D.C.?

[notesdev]

18. Interestingly enough it didn't happen in the rest of Virginia

It only happened in a place where the victims were guaranteed to be unarmed.

Funny how that works.


Can you do us a favor and not assist in getting more innocent people by advocating a misguided, emotionally driven and short-sighted policy? I give you props for having your heart in the right place but your brain is MIA here.

[sharesunited]

23. You advocate for the innocent in your way, and I will do so in mine.

We are both working from the same pile of dead.

[derby378]

47. When you start advocating for the innocent, please let us know

All I see is an authoritarian screed that does nothing to honor the rights or the dignity of the innocent, let alone those slain police officers.

[rl6214]

38. Now states are worshipping guns?

You really don't have a fucking clue do you?

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Couple miles short of a clue. If Heller didn't exist. If the 2nd Amendment didn't exist.

This still could have happened. It's built into Washington State's Constitution, as it is for MOST states:

Section 24: The Right To Bear Arms

"The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men."

As ratified, 1889, LOOOONG after the advent of repeating firearms, and weapons that would be classed as destructive devices or assault weapons today.

[benEzra]

25. That's right, because prior to D.C. v. Heller, there were no handguns in the United States.

And if they were magically made as illegal as pot, they would be unavailable to criminals, just like pot. :eyes:

Face it, the support for gun prohibition is at roughly the same level as the support for alcohol prohibition. I'm not sure where your intense hatred for anyone who chooses differently than you on this issue comes from, but rest assured that it is not shared by most of the U.S. population, nor most Dems and indies.

And as a counterweight to those who like to dance in the blood of police officers to advance their own pet agendas, police-officer shooting deaths are still near historic lows (last year was the lowest since 1956).

[aikoaiko]

27. Your real beef is with the constitution.

I know that is a drag for you, but no amount of deflection away from the meaning of the 2nd Amendment will help you "shut down the gun trade".

Your agenda is unreasonable and, thankfully, a minority position even among anti-gun folks.

[proteus_lives]

28. And you just can't bear to bring yourself to blame the person who pulled the trigger.

It's safer and easier to blame inanimate tools and judges.

Your fear-driven anti-Rights authoritarianism is laughable.

[rrneck]

30. Always good to

hear from the anti gun fundamentalists.

Lots of heat and no light, but it's still a helluva show.

[beevul]

32. Wow, scares, bitter much?

"I blame Associate Justice Antonin Scalia for the availability of the gun."

Yeah because there were no guns available before heller, right?

"It was Scalia who wrote the majority opinion in the Heller decision."

Loosely translated: "It was Scalia who destroyed my (pipe)dream of disarming everyone except the military and the police". Boo fucking hoo. I can hardly wait to see how you act up when incorporation comes. If it gets too rough, heres who you can call:


"The proliferation of guns and ammo is the only societal problem on display in this case, and no amount of spin by gun lovers can obscure that fact."

Yeah, because a homicidal maniac loose amongst society at large isn't a societal problem, right? That in fact says quite a lot about you, scares. Guns are more of a problem in your warped little worldview, than a clearly homicidal maniac at large. No wait, thats not quite accurate. You said the ONLY societal problem on display was "The proliferation of guns and ammo". The ONLY societal problem on display. That clearly means that YOU do not see a homicidal maniac at large as being a societal problem. But you see the availability of guns and ammo as one.


As I said, such admissions on your part say quite a lot about you. And none of it good, decent, or sane. Typical of the fanatical anti-gun mindset, yes indeed.


"Banned in Chicago? Just drive to Indiana. How far is Indiana? Not far. Banned in the District? Just drive to Virginia. How far is Virginia? Not far."

Now this, the buck passing, is more of what I've come to expect from your ilk. Its always someone elses fault, isn't it? But NEVER the person that pulls the trigger. Typical.

"Scalia might as well have personally shot those four officers in that diner himself, as guilty as he is for contributing to the problem which caused their deaths. He is bathed in their blood."

The irony...of claiming someone else is bathed in the blood of innocence...while you dance the "disarmament two-step" in it.


Shame on you Scares.

[dairydog91]

34. Indeed. I also blame Henry Ford for every automotive death in history.

Also, kudos on the whole "The proliferation of guns and ammo is the only societal problem on display in this case" quote. It's nice and honest to be up front with that sort of complete insanity. I must ask, in your dream America where most/all guns are banned from civilian ownership, do murderous psychopaths with decade-long criminal histories simply shrug, give up, and become cheerful good citizens?

P.S. Some people might think that a guy who earned a century-long prison sentence as a teenager shouldn't have ever been released. I suppose if he didn't have a gun he would have simply been forced to kill some unarmed people with a knife, which would have been so much better.

[Remmah2]

50. Do cars cause drive by shootings?

Curse you Henry Ford!

[SteveM]

58. I had a '63 Chevy Nova wagon which did...

While the car was running, and I was adjusting the carburetor, an air-cleaner mount rivet shook loose and was swallowed by the Rochester. The car miss-fired a moment, then spat the rivet out the exhaust pipe and bounced it off the concrete wall of our house. All was well, and our house never dissed that car again. (I still wonder what the disagreement was about, however.)

[AtheistCrusader]

35. SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.

The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

Yet, the Washington State Constitution agrees with Scalia's interpretation.

Too bad for you.

[cowcommander]

40. Obvious troll thread is obvious

[Euromutt]

41. No, I blame Huckabee

Clemmons received a 95-year sentence, and Huckabee commuted it because the guy was 17 and told some nice sob story about how he was going to improve his life with the aid of Jesus. I'm inclined to say that if you've managed to rack up a 95-year prison sentence by age 17, you're almost certainly a nasty piece of work. Clemmons already had an extensive criminal record long before the Heller decision was handed down, so blaming Scalia is utterly moronic.

Actually, Huckabee had something of a valid point that the Washington state criminal justice system had failed as well by letting the guy out on bail (and where the fuck did Clemmons get $15K in this economy?), but when you're the one who personally released a guy who should still have been rotting in an Arkansas state prison, it's a little ungracious to try to spread the blame. So fuck Huckabee.

[Tejas]

43. Sit tight,

you can blame Scalia for the spanking Chicago has coming too.


FOID to buy a box of .22 at WalMart, Brady is so proud of you.

[virginia mountainman]

45. At least when now know ...

what Republican Mike Bloomberg's DU handle is..

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

46. You blame one guy for something that happened over a thousand miles away.

You're totally (and likely purposefully) ignoring the fact that the Heller case had nothing to do with this.
a) Heller dealt with a gun ban in DC. The shootings happened on the west coast.
b) Heller deals with RKBA... RKBA does not apply to this multiple convicted felon.
c) Decided either way, the Washington State gun laws (or gun supply) would not EVER have been affected (much less a year later) without incorporation.

And the icing on this asinine-stupid piece of shit logic you managed to pinch off... you blame ONE guy that sat on a panel of SEVERAL justices - a majority of which also voted the same. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure his vote counts the same as every other justices' vote. Writing the majority opinion on the ruling does not make one any more culpable than the rest of the majority voters.

Regrettably, some people are stupid and they do their to best to move on with life. And then there are some people who are so stupid they can't comprehend such fact that they are stupid. That really is the best thing you got going for, shares... your so fucking stupid it's actually benefiting your disposition. Stupidity is bliss... or some such jazz. Congratulations. :eyes:

[slackmaster]

48. Illogical. The Heller decision contributed in no way to the "availability" of any weapon to anyone.

What a bunch of nonsense.

[gorfle]

52. Asinine.

I don't place any blame on Mike Huckabee. None whatsoever.

This is asinine.

Mike Huckabee took a convicted criminal serving a 95-year prison sentence for aggravated robbery and had no less than 13 felony convictions and turned him loose into a society with free access to firearms.

To assign no blame to him, but instead blame the people who protect the rights of all the rest of us without felonies and other extensive criminal backgrounds is, simply, asinine.

The simple fact is a dangerous person was released into society who should not have been. He could have just as easily plowed his car into the side of the coffee shop at 90 MPH.

[friendly_iconoclast]

55. You forgot to blame the inventor of gunpowder and Samuel Colt

Other than that, your post is at the leading edge of gun control theory. As usual, you do not blame the person who committed the murders.

I'm curious- if the killer had lived to trial, would you have advocated the Ring of Sauron defense?

"Copses, we hates them!"

You *have* claimed that "Guns cloud thought", have you not?

[AtheistCrusader]

56. PAGING SHARESUNITED: SHARESUNITED THERE ARE UNADDRESSED COUNTER-POINTS IN YOUR THREAD

Based on fact, and not emotional hyperbole. Please address them.

[rd_kent]

69. Don't hold your breath......

[bluedigger]

57. So who you blaming for the child raping?

:eyes:

[Katya Mullethov]

59. If it involved a decapitation and subsequent

If it involved a decapitation and subsequent esophageal stump fuck , then that would be the reefer .

We learned all about this in school .

[PavePusher]

60. WOW. n/t

[bluedigger]

70. School?

:wtf:

[GreenStormCloud]

71. She is showing her age, and you are showing your youth.

In the 1950s, there were movies that were shown in schools that were supposed to drug education movies. They showed people who had committed horrible crimes and blamed the crimes on marijuana. Reefer Madness was a classic of the genre. Notice that the photo blames the crime on the reefer.

[bluedigger]

73. I appreciate the explaination.

Because that just looked like some sick shit to this almost 50 y.o. "youth". I guess reefer is to blame for all non-gun related crime then. Simple answers for a simpler world.

[rd_kent]

68. .

[Ter]

72. He had no choice

By law he has to side with the Constitution, not your opinion. Blame the Founding Fathers if anybody.