SCOTUS sets oral arguments on Chicago gun ban challenge

[oneshooter]

The long-awaited challenge to Chicago’s handgun ban will be heard by the U.S. Supreme Court on March 2, 2010 and already it is looking like everyone, on both sides of the issue, anticipates that the justices will rule that the Second Amendment is incorporated through the 14th Amendment as a barrier to local gun bans,



What gun prohibitionists have never understood is that the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is not simply meant for the elitist, privileged gentry.
For more than a generation, the anti-gun political machine in Chicago has denied a basic civil right to its citizens. That must end. That is why the Second Amendment Foundation and Illinois State Rifle Association, in cooperation with four Chicago residents, took the city to court last year.

http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m12d4-SCOTUS-sets-oral-arguments-on-Chicago-gun-ban-challenge

So a decision should be out by june or july.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[TheCowsCameHome]

1. All set.

:popcorn:

[doc03]

2. The Socialist Republic of Illinois n/t

[divideandconquer]

3. What gun huggers don't understand is that our ancestor were barbarous!

[GreenStormCloud]

4. What gun-grabbers don't understand is that some of our current populace...

...refering to violent felons, are still barbarous. Violent felons won't be stopped by the sweet voice of reason, unless that voice can speak with the bark of a gun aimed at them. Singing Kumbaya just doesn't work with street goblins.

My wife is alive because she had a gun when she needed it to prevent herself from being murdered. Goblin discovered that he would be the dead one instead of her, so he ran away, and real fast too.

[divideandconquer]

5. "Street Goblins?"

:rofl:

[GreenStormCloud]

6. As usual, you decline to discuss.

Yes, I sometimes refer to street criminals as goblins. It expresses my disgust with violent street predators. That it offends gun-grabbers is an added plus. Now would you like to actually discuss the points I made. I doubt it, as you usually avoid them.

I have posted, many times, that my wife is alive because she had a gun when she needed it to prevent herself from being murdered. What do you have to say to that?

[doc03]

7. She was lucky she didn't live in the Socialist Republic

of Illinois.

[divideandconquer]

9. "Socialist Republic of Illinois" "Spoken like a true liberal"

:rofl: worlds collide and the cloaking devices fails.

[SteveM]

12. Don't know any "Socialist Republic of (fill in here)" which was liberal...

Do you?

[divideandconquer]

8. I don't believe it, that's what I say to that.

I know that use of guns as some self defense miracle solution is a bunch of propaganda and gun presence often backfires. I've seen it more than few times.

[GreenStormCloud]

10. So you call my wife a liar?

And what self-defense solution do you propose? Or do you prefer that people throw themselves on the mercies of violent felons?

And you are still refusing to discuss.

[metalbot]

13. Often?

Got any stats to back that up? Didn't think so. You can pull up anecdotal evidence, but as soon as you look at the number of defensive gun uses in the US each year relative to the number of people who have their own guns used against them you have nothing to stand on.

Nobody suggests that guns are a "miracle solution" anymore than a seatbelt is a "miracle solution" to car accidents.

[divideandconquer]

17. What about all he times guns are used for evil and no police reports are generated?

One example, domestic violence is usually built around the threat of gun use.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. What does he times mean?

[taurus145]

37. And you have proof of this?

Let's see it.

[taurus145]

15. You've seen it?

I doubt that.

Miracle solution? No.

Practical solution? You bet your sweet ass!

Maybe if we all had Jedi powers guns would become unnecessary, but we don't.

[divideandconquer]

18. Violence begets violence, gun nuts are to blame for all this domestic terror

[GreenStormCloud]

23. Empty sloganeering is not a substitute for reason argument.

Violence can also stop violence. Pacifism encourages violence because pacifism allows the violent predators to win. Violence in the cause of self-defense causes the predators to back off.

[beevul]

25. So then, if confronted by violence...

We can all be sure you won't call someone with a uniform and a gun to meet that violence with violence for your protection, right?


Transparent, you are.

[TPaine7]

26. +1,000,000 n/t

[taurus145]

27. After careful consideration, all I can say is

BULLSHIT!

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Please cite a better source than the bible.

Otherwise, I'm going to start citing Iron Man comics.

[TPaine7]

36. I'm pretty sure that phrase--violence begets violence--is not in the Bible.

It may be Shakespeare, or maybe it just sounds old. It is a favorite little saying, like "violence never solved anything" or "a gun's only purpose is murder."

[GreenStormCloud]

42. You're right. It isn't.

It is just another of those trite sayings that once you think about it, you realize the saying isn't true.

[eqfan592]

16. If that's what you "know"....

...then you don't "know" a damned thing about the subject.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff.html

[Euromutt]

43. And why should anyone believe you?

It's not like there's any evidence that these incidents of "gun presence backfiring" are anything other than misinterpretation, or possibly even utter fabrication, on your part, let alone that they're representative of the entire picture. In fact, there's no evidence that the oft-made claim that an assailant "will take the gun from you and use it against you" occurs more than 1% of the time, and that's a generous estimate.

Another thing you might want to consider is that propaganda is not by definition untrue. Propaganda is information disseminated for the purpose of influencing opinion; that information can be partly or wholly false, but it could also be entirely true. Most propaganda tells no actual falsehoods, though it generally does omit certain facts that contradict the conclusion the disseminating party would like you to reach.

For example, gun "control" organizations frequently cite the number of people who die of gunshot wounds, while assiduously avoiding any mention of the fact that over half of these are suicides, and that (given that the American suicide rate is unremarkable compared to those of other rich developed countries, and considerably lower than those of many) there is no good reason to assume that these people wouldn't have committed suicide by other means if a firearm had not been available to them. That's a good example of propaganda, even though the basic claim is perfectly true.

[SteveM]

11. Still are.

[taurus145]

14. Are we our ancestors?

No. Q.E.D.

[divideandconquer]

19. Take it up with Jefferson!

Liberal friendly quotes:

"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the ark of the Covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment… laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind… as that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, institutions must advance also, to keep pace with the times… We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain forever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
-- Thomas Jefferson, on reform of the Virginia Constitution

<http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Quotes-USconstitution.htm>

[GreenStormCloud]

22. Yes, Jefferson is a very good source.

Thomas Jefferson, Gun quotes:

No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms.

A strong body makes the mind strong.
As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun.
While this gives moderate exercise to the body,
it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind.
Games played with the ball, and others of that nature,
are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind.
Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks.


"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. … Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

I love quoting the Founding Fathers and early Americans on RKBA issues as they were 100% strongly in favor of the individual having guns.

[taurus145]

28. Cherry picker by trade, are you?

n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

30. The Constitution is amendable.

Go for it, if you think you can gin up 2/3rds.

[GreenStormCloud]

31. Actually, it takes 3/4 of the states to ratify an amendment.

Any 13 states can block an amendment from ratification.

[divideandconquer]

32. or massive amounts of blood from the tree of liberty

[GreenStormCloud]

33. But the pro-2nd Amendment people are also the ones with the guns. N/T

[divideandconquer]

39. The second amendment also gives Blackwater mercenaries guns

and makes America's criminals among the best armed on the planet.

Haven't heard anything about Australia becoming a gulag.

[GreenStormCloud]

41. Criminals have guns in violation of the laws.

The 2nd does not arm criminals. But you knew that, didn't you? Regarding Blackwater, inside the U.S. boundaries, they are pretty careful to obey U.S. laws. Overseas, the legal environment is different so the situation is not comparable.

[Euromutt]

44. America's criminals "the best armed on the planet"?

You need to get out more, or at least try reading some non-American news sources.

In April 2007, the night before the trial of Willem Holleeder was due to start at the maximum-security courthouse in Amsterdam known as "the Bunker," parties unknown fired several shots from a rocket launcher at the building. Because it was nighttime, nobody was present to be injured, but the purpose of the attack was most likely to intimidate Holleeder to prevent him from turning state's evidence.

In September 2008, on the A73 on the outskirts of Nijmegen, Hans van Geenen, illegal grower of and dealer in marijuana, was assassinated. The Ford Escort in which he was traveling, was fired upon from a pursuing BMW with at least one automatic weapon; the Ford was hit by more than 70 bullets, and police recovered at least that many cartridge cases scattered along a 6-mile stretch of the highway.

In 2007, illicit weapons dealer Sjaak B. was convicted for providing the weapons used in the assassination of gang leader Kees Houtman. During a search of his villa in 2003, a handwritten list was recovered of over six hundred firearms, and while it's unclear whether this list represented inventory or orders, twelve of the weapons listed were found on the premises (http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article463468.ece/Boodschappenlijstje_vol_met_bijzondere_wapens). Included on the list were:

- 8 x Heckler & Koch MP5K sub-machine gun (http://www.hk-usa.com/military_products/mp5k_general.asp) with sound suppressor; €6,350 each
- 2 x SIG SG 552 "Commando" compact assault rifle (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as25-e.htm); €8,000 each
- 60 x AK-47 assault rifle (the real thing, not some semi-auto-only "assault weapon"); €1,600 each
- 30 x Beretta 9000 handgun (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg43-e.htm) with suppressor; €2,000 each
- 20 x Glock 18 machine pistol (http://www.teamglock.com/Glock-Buyers-Guide/Glock-18.htm); €2,750 each

Many of the weapons on B.'s list are--for all practical purposes--not available to private citizens in the United States, and the configurations of various items that are (semi-auto pistols with suppressors) would require registration and a $200 NFA tax stamp, where even permitted by state law.

Really, European criminals can get hold of some serious firepower if they want it, European gun control laws notwithstanding; the former Yugoslavs in particular have no difficulty getting hold of automatic weapons. The Mexican cartels aren't getting their automatic weapons and explosives from U.S. sources either. If there's widespread use of automatic weapons, grenades and rocket launchers by American criminals, I have yet to hear about it. Care to provide some links to news stories?

[eqfan592]

34. Are you threatening civil war if you don't get your way?

I find that interesting and ironic, especially sense you invoke the "tree of liberty" when you wish to reduce the liberties of the people of this nation, and you wish to do this with almost no evidence to support your position that doing so will make for a better nation.

[divideandconquer]

38. If guns made men free, Afghanistan would be the freest nation on the planet

or maybe Somalia.

[metalbot]

40. If banning guns worked, then Mexico would be the safest nation, right?

[eqfan592]

45. Firearms are not the end all and be all of freedom,

but they are a part of it, and they can be a key to freedom for those who are oppressed.

By the way, nice straw man argument that did nothing to counter the point I made.

[Hoopla Phil]

20. I'm hoping for a nice big dish of incorporation to be served up. With a side of strict scrutiny.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. Incorporation by July. Isn't life grand.

[aikoaiko]

35. a LOT is riding on this case.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.