Gun laws are getting looser across much of US

[friendly_iconoclast]

Source: Associated Press

Gun laws are getting looser across much of US
By ERIK SCHELZIG (AP) – 2 hours ago

NASHVILLE, Tenn. — It's been the year of the gun in Tennessee. In a flurry of legislative action, handgun owners won the right to take their weapons onto sports fields and playgrounds and, at least briefly, into bars.

A change in leadership at the state Capitol helped open the doors to the gun-related bills and put Tennessee at the forefront of a largely unnoticed trend: In much of the country, it is getting easier to carry guns.

A nationwide review by The Associated Press found that over the last two years, 24 states, mostly in the South and West, have passed 47 new laws loosening gun restrictions.

Among other things, legislatures have allowed firearms to be carried in cars, made it illegal to ask job candidates whether they own a gun, and expanded agreements that make permits to carry handguns in one state valid in another....

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hPr7XMxucKdLX90GDUlz3ELLBXMQD9CHB0S81

---

Not very surprising, since the "blood in the streets" meme turned out to be so much propaganda.

Score 1 for the Constitution

[LARED]

1. Good a positive trend nt

[chandler2]

2. 2nd Amendment rights

Many people believe that everyone who isn't in prison, on parole or on probation should be allowed to protect themselves,
their family, and their property with a firearm. I agree. You DON'T? Why not?

[geckosfeet]

4. Recidivisim. Look it up.

Reentry Trends in the U.S. - Recidivism

[JDPriestly]

50. It's kind of a pendulum that swings back and forth on this.

As long as there is not a severe rise in gun crimes and violence, people will support more liberal gun laws. If, however, the use of guns for violence increases, then the public will react by demanding restrictions on guns.

I have seen stories about someone, for example, who carried a gun into a bar, drank, got angry and shot someone. Stories of that nature are very upsetting.

On the other hand, if people have the right to carry guns, but gun violence does not increase, then there will be no backlash. So if laws ease, it is up to gun owners to act responsibly.

Cars can also be very dangerous. Therefore we have strict rules about how and where they may be driven. Generally, if you drive your car on the sidewalk, you will be stopped and ticketed. Maybe in certain situations, you will be arrested. If you drive recklessly you get a ticket and eventually lose your license. So, if there were a rule against having guns in any location in which alcohol or drugs are used or likely to be used or against having a gun while imbibing, that would be a reasonable restriction. You can't drive drunk. Why should you be allowed to use a gun when drunk?

So, there can be a middle ground. Of course, sometimes the gun you carry can be taken from you by someone stronger than you are -- and used against you. My dad used to say that if anyone wanted to shoot him, they would have to bring their own gun. He was a wise man.

[GreenStormCloud]

52. 100 million guns old in the last twenty years, and violent crime has been cut.

How can my gun get taken from me if I am filling my attacker full of lead? A gun is NOT a grappling weapon, like a knife or club is, but is able to be used at distance. I don't need to be strong to use it, just pull the trigger. Your father's quote, regretfully, does not cover the situation of being attacked by knife, club, or stronger fists. The gun gives a weaker person the ability to defend themselves against those who are younger and stronger.

None of us support carrying a gun and drinking. But one can carry in a bar and NOT drink. Perhaps one is the designated driver. Or one simply wants to eat at a particular place that has good food, even though they may also serve alcohol.

Those who have CCWs have already shown themselves, as a group, to be eight times more law-abiding than the general public. We have to pass an FBI background check (In most states) to get that CCW, as well as take classes and test. CCW are NOT just passed out like throws at Mardi Gras.

[slackmaster]

3. People are getting more choices without any harm to public safety?

There must be some mistake.

[proteus_lives]

5. Good!

As with freedom of speech, religion, choice and marriage; liberals and progressives should support gun rights!

[depakid]

6. Yep- Americans do love their guns- repeated mass shootings, family killings

cop killings, lethal gun crimes and the world's largest and most expensive prison system are a small price to pay for such a compelling fear driven obsession.

No amount of blood in American streets could possibly outweigh an ill advised 5-4 far right Supreme Court decision... at least, not yet.

[Tejas]

7. ....and their knives and baseball bats and drunk drivers and

[depakid]

8. All of these Oregonians in November alone would likely be alive

absent easy access to guns:

Read their stories of the 17 dead in the families here:

http://topics.oregonlive.com/tag/murder-suicide/index.html

(this in addition to 3 more the first week of December).

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. Tragic stories, but the plural of 'anecdote' isn't 'data'

The US murder and violent crime rates have been going down, while gun laws have been getting laxer. The article merely reflects the trend. The default should always be towards freedom, especially when the empirical evidence shows a lessening of harm.

Anyway, the US rejected the moralizing, statist wowserism of Cheney, Gonzales, and Ashcroft in 2008. What special case can
you make to get us to accept your variety of the same?

[depakid]

13. Spoken like a true denialist

All of the data and studies are bogus and bias (for whatever reason)- and all of the evidence right in front of everyone's faces is "just a series of anecdotes" -no different than sick or dying polar bears and walrus.

Bottom line- take the guns out of the equation- and/or make them MUCH less accessible- and these people are likely still alive.

But nope- can't have that- MUST HAVE MORE GUNS IN MORE PLACES.

[TheWraith]

19. You have that backwards. All the data and studies show violent crime going down.

By a third in the US since 1992, as a matter of fact. Meanwhile things like concealed carry laws have become common as opposed to rare.

You on the other hand are like the guy who insists that because it snowed somewhere in October, that global warming is a hoax. You can't point to a single scientific study showing that violent crime has gone up in the past 16 years, nor to the gunfights on every streetcorner predicted for CCW, nor to an increase in crime correspondent to the increase in ownership of guns. And of course you studiously avoid the examples of places like Switzerland, where the government literally hands out fully automatic rifles by the hundreds of thousands, along with ammunition, yet has a ridiculously low crime rate.

All the evidence that can be put together shows that your link between guns and crime doesn't exist. The meaningful links to crime involve poverty, black marketeering, and our continuation of the drug war.

[depakid]

40. You can rationalize and obfuscate away the obvious all that you like

but the fact is, accounting for all other factors- these crimes would decrease- and the trends would improve in America- families would be safer, as they are in Australia without easy access to guns (and in particular semi-automatic handguns and rifles).

Yet in the same process global warming denialists use (sometimes- even so far as to go the "but we're preventing another ice age" route) -you and other insist that MORE GUNS in MORE place with EASIER ACCESS is somehow going to improve matters.

That's more than just pathetic- it's pathological.

And I would also add that you and others who advocate gun proliferation are each and every one are responsible for the consequences of the policies you advocate:

continuing and recurring mass shootings- family killings- guns a blazin' workplace tragedies and kids shooting one another after getting hold of guns

Not to mention crimes with higher degrees of lethality and trauma than would otherwise be the case.

That's your legacy- which you'll never accept or admit- no matter how compelling the evidence, much less support even the meagerest most steps to deal with. At least, not until the time when the majority of decent, less fearful folks people will have finally had enough of the mass shootings, cop killings and family tragedies- or (not even going there).

Then they'll have one of those collective aha moments and realize that the models that best describe the harms done is found in epidemiology- where groups exposed to guns and those not exposed in given environments show markedly different morbidities and mortality.

Which is precisely where the studies are going- and also where public awareness is headed. Kinda like other public health campaigns:

[TheWraith]

47. So your argument is, if you had your way the facts would be different?

Your concrete proof is that there would BE concrete proof if the US bowed to your wishes and threw out chunks of the Constitution to make us safer? Coincidentally, that's pretty much the same argument that they used to justify warrantless wiretapping, warrantless searches, indefinite detention without trial, et al.

And you keep conveniently ignoring that there are examples of where guns have been banned. The UK and Australia, for instance. In both cases, the violent crime rate has either remained unchanged or ticked up marginally. Surprise surprise, criminals can still get guns even when law abiding people can't, and even when criminals can't get guns they use knives, fists, etcetera. And they do so with impunity, because they know their victims won't be armed.

[X_Digger]

48. That one's worthy of a bookmark..

How many classic depakid-ism's in one post can I count?

1) ignore the fact that crime is down while gun ownership is up (shredding the simplistic 'more guns = more crime' meme.)

2) strawman point 1) into thinking that someone, somewhere said that 'more guns = less crime' (if you can't see that saying 'more guns hasn't led to more crime as proven by the increase in gun ownership and concurrent drop in crime' isn't the same as saying 'more guns leads to less crime' (causality anyone?) then I'll take the rest of your box of crayons- you obviously only need the black and white ones.)

3) can't actually refute anything, so you fall back to ad hominems

4) when that doesn't work, drop back to catholic-mother-guilt-trip attempt

5) guns = germs! Because the only research backing up your position comes from epidemiologists, rather than criminologists, you are forced to think that gun crimes are like typhoid rather than a social problem.

6) and for good measure, you throw in a penis reference!

c'mon, you have time to edit the post, want to throw in some more canards?

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. Still can't explain away a declining murder rate, can you?

Yet in the same process global warming denialists use (sometimes- even so far as to go the "but we're preventing another ice age" route) -you and other insist that MORE GUNS in MORE place with EASIER ACCESS is somehow going to improve matters.

That's more than just pathetic- it's pathological.

Not pathological, just borne out by emprical evidence.

Maybe it wasn't the result of "MORE GUNS in MORE places with EASIER ACCESS", but the murder rate in the US is at the lowest point in decades, even with millions more guns in the hands of the hoi polloi.

Unless you've got some hard evidence the Department of Justice is cooking the stats, I would have to say you are ignoring
this inconvenient truth, probably because it does not fit with your prejudices.

And I would also add that you and others who advocate gun proliferation are each and every one are responsible for the consequences of the policies you advocate

Yep, just like my support for the First Amendment makes me responsible for child pornography and racist websites.

Just as my support of the Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights of all Americans makes me an enabler of terrorism.


Sure you wouldn't be happier with people like Cheney, Ashcroft and Gonzales running things again? Seems you lot
share the same mindset...

[PavePusher]

58. Please demonstrate the falsity...

of the published crime data.

Go ahead, I'll go cook lunch while you assemble your information...

[Tejas]

9. and don't forget box cutters.

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. Americans are not as violent as Australians, but are more murderous

We tend to be less violent in general, but when we *do* get violent it tends to escalate to murder more often.

Said murders tend to be committed by those with previous criminal convictions, not the majority.

The legislative trends just illustrate the awareness that the fear of Americans with legally held guns is largely
irrational, and this is thouroughly discussed here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x273926

[depakid]

45. While one could quibble with that- the concept raised- lethality -is more important

[beevul]

14. Nothing to do with the war on drugs...

"and the world's largest and most expensive prison system"

Nothing to do with the war on drugs, I'm sure. :sarcasm:

"No amount of blood in American streets could possibly outweigh an ill advised 5-4 far right Supreme Court decision"


Ill advised is your opinion, and your entitled to it, even if it is at odds with reality, and with the actual text of the bill of rights itself.

[AusDem]

34. depa, as an aussie who lived in the states for 10 years

i think i can safely say that American's treasure their right to bear arms almost as much as the right to free speech. I know you're speaking out for what you think is a good reason (which i applaud as it takes courage), but sometimes its better to just let it go. Personally I don't like the idea of easy availability of guns, but America hasn't descended into an outright bloodbath, and they seem fairly happy to live with a slightly higher fatality rate than the rest of the developed world. plus i would NOT want to be an invading army into the US, can you imagine the trouble you'd have trying to subjugate an armed populace!

America has a lot to offer the world in other areas, including an ironclad focus on individual liberty........while gun culture isn't one of those things, its a particularly American system, and I don't think the country is that much worse off for it (most of the people focusing on the second amendment would probably says its better off). if as you say a large proportion of gun violence is between families at home, its a personal choice that a family is making in keeping that gun, and they have to live with the consequences if something goes wrong. as to controlling gun related deaths outside of the home, that's what the police are there for, same as in Australia.

plus they've got bigger problems, ie healthcare, entrenched global warming deniers and the threat of a theocratic takeover of government. oh, and the small matter of the non-prosecution of war criminals.

[proteus_lives]

61. A voice of sanity from a real Australian.

You're right, we a lot more important things to focus and work on. But I will say it's important to keep an eye on gun rights because it's often were the slippery slop starts.

You're also right, we do have more gun-related fatalities due to crime, suicide and accidents. But the truth is that gun crime and violent crime are down and they've been going that way for a long time. The minority of misuse does not overshadow the millions of Americans (including this DUer) who use and carry firearms safely every day.

"plus i would NOT want to be an invading army into the US, can you imagine the trouble you'd have trying to subjugate an armed populace!"

That's astute! It makes me recall a quote from a Japanese General just before WWII. "We could never invade the United States, there would be rifle behind every blade of grass."

[Lorien]

46. +1. nt

[proteus_lives]

57. Yep-Americans love their rights.

And liberals and progressives aren't supposed to care for social authoritarians.

[Imajika]

12. The Democratic Party officially gave up on Gun Control....

Therefore we have the 2 major parties both supporting very little restriction on individual gun rights. I would expect this trend to continue.

The Gun Control movement is dead.

[Paladin]

15. The Gun Control Movement Isn't Dead.

It's dormant, until the next major political assassination. God help us, it's just a question of "when"; "whether" doesn't even enter into it, because it's bound to happen. Really looking forward to all the self-righteous justifications from our resident coterie of DU Gun Nuts, who aren't even pretending to be Democrats, anymore....

[safeinOhio]

17. The Second Amendment supporters have done a great job.

My hat is off to all those here at DU that have worked so hard. Now I challenge you to work as hard for GLBT, abortion and universal health care. Any takers?

[Tejas]

26. Eagerly awaiting a

link to your "work hard for various other causes" thread(s).

[depakid]

44. Not sure how it'll work when one's allies are Scalia, Thomas, Roberts. Alito & Kennedy

They're not exactly interested in consistent or coherent jurisprudence, much less integruty

The results in particular cases or issues is all that they're interested in- and they'll do twisters backwards to get them (no matter how it impacts the common law over time).

[X_Digger]

37. Here's a two-fer

I work with the Dallas chapter of the pink pistols* :)

*http://pinkpistols.org/ - whose motto is 'Armed Gays Don't Get Bashed.'

[safeinOhio]

39. Now, I like that.

Can armed Palin protesters be far behind. Tea bags for targets get my support too.

[GreenStormCloud]

53. Still LOTS of work to do for 2nd Amendment rights.

The 2nd needs to be incorporated.

Concealed carry needs to be extended.

Get rid of "Gun free" (Really "Defenseless Victim") Zones.

Lots of silly gun restrictions in some states that need to be removed.

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. Your cause is headed for the dustheap of history

Bitter, are we?

BTW, who are the "DU Gun Nuts" you speak of?
And since when was it a requirement that Democrats support gun control?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

43. Stick a fork in it pal.

[Pavulon]

55. Gone. That bamboozle is over. You anti guys should just move on to fixing root cause

like drug law and mental health issues that cause violence.

[cowcommander]

16. Why do some people insist that you must hate guns to be liberal?

Yes, it's perfectly possible to like Obama and guns at the same time.

[Doctor_J]

23. I don't hate guns. I hate living in a gun culture

We live in the most gun-happy culture in history, yet the gun nuts bitch and bitch incessantly about how their pet amendment is under attack.

[Tejas]

27. How are your "pet amendments" doing?

I'm sure you have a favorite too eh?

[Doctor_J]

35. Not so well. Someone was arrested recently for carrying a sign at

a Palin rally. So it's legal to carry assault rifles at Obama appearances, but not to carry signs at Palin rallies. My other favorites, te 4th, 5th, and 8th, and also shrinking at an alarming rate. But yours is very healthy so don't worry about the others.

[PavePusher]

59. I think you will find that in most web forums...

including (or perhaps, escpecially) here, those who are fans of the Second Amendment are also vociferous supporters of the entire Bill of Rights. Ask around, see what you might learn. I think you will come to have a different perspective if you trouble yourself to talk with people. Your current assumption does not seem to be supported by facts.

[cowcommander]

28. Then move to another country

Because like it or not, America has always had a gun culture since it rebelled against Britain. And yes, it is under attack all the time from dishonest politicians on BOTH sides who use them as an excuse to ignore the root causes of gun violence in America - drugs and poverty.

[Doctor_J]

32. AH, yes. Just like listening to hate radio

The single-amendment folks always spout right-wing epithets. "If you don't like it, leave". Sounds just like Weiner.

The gun culture is one of the small factions that wields clout in DC far exceding its numbers due to enormous lobbying dollars and remarkable media sympathy.

I am happy for you that Frank Luntz and the thousands of radio hosts that flood the airwaves are on your side of this issue. A pity that they and you are not as passionate about the 1st, 4th, 5th, 8th amendments, which actually have been curtailed, unlike the 2nd.

[cowcommander]

36. The gun lobby wouldn't exist in the first place

if there wasn't such a strong movement to push for gun control. The NRA never had the kind of political clout they have today until the 1994 AWB flushed dollars into their coffers. And where do you get the idea that the other amendments are just as threatened?

[depakid]

42. "where do you get the idea that the other amendments are just as threatened?"

Not certain where to begin with this other than to say Obama's controversial quote was, while impolitic- absolutely accurate.

Next thing we'll be hearing is that there's been a war declared on Christians and Christmas....

Oh, wait...

ps: you might want to look at a few other areas of the American Bill of Rights over the years.

[Doctor_J]

18. Yet the OozeBeckistanis swear there's a crackdown. Even the DU Limbeciles believe it

Orwell was an optimist.

[alarimer]

20. Just what we need in these economic times

More laid-off, pissed-off people with easier access to guns. What could possibly go wrong? :sarcasm:
As if there have not been enough mass shootings lately, largely because guns are too fucking easy to get.

We need MORE restrictions, not less.

[TheWraith]

21. Yes, we need more restrictions on law abiding people getting guns.

Just in case of the one in ten million or so chance that they're going to go nuts and shoot somebody. On that note, we should also start putting TV cameras in every public space--after all, it's not like it's private, and government needs to watch people because you never know when they're going to turn to crime. Also, monitoring the internet and phone lines. Lots of crime happens that way. And they shouldn't need warrants to do it, because the constitution is "quaint" and was never intended for these sorts of times.

See how dangerous you sound now?

[PavePusher]

60. And yet, the homicide rate trends steadily downwards.

Missed that part, didn't ya?

[onehandle]

22. Not impressed. When my kindergartner can pack heat in class, then I will be satisfied.

Damn libruls.

[Doctor_J]

24. She probably can. If the principal confiscates it you can probably sue.

go for it! Show them goddamned gun grabbers.

[friendly_iconoclast]

31. You two aren't much on gun laws, are ya?

n/t

[Tejas]

54. LOL +1

oh my goodness, my first chuckle of the day!

anti: "to heck with laws, we have feelings!"

[PavePusher]

62. Your strawman... it is rather crude and un-life-like. FAIL. n/t

[invisible]

25. I don't favor any weapon any time anywhere for anyone, but...

I am not currently a gun owner and do not particularly sympathize with people who are overly obsessed with gun deregulation (any weapon any time anywhere for anyone); but I can understand some legitimate reasons for owning a gun.

Guns are for defending yourself from people like George W. Bush and his supporters. Guns are for defending yourself from private right wing anti-American armies like Blackwater (Xe)—conveniently funded by taxpayer dollars, thanks primarily to conservatives and Republicans. Guns are for defending yourself from a right wing military coup—as espoused by anti-American conservative media whores like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck. Make no mistake about it: conservatives are violent, stupid, and armed—regardless of whatever gun control laws happen to be on the books for “civilians”.

By the way, the expulsion of capable and qualified military personnel from the armed forces based on sexual orientation (specifically for being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender) is an extreme form of gun control.

[friendly_iconoclast]

30. Nobody here is, and even the NRA isn't. That's a recurrent meme.

I would venture to say only extreme libertarians think that way.

I agree with you one one point:

The wingers certainly aren't going to disarm. Take a lesson from Robert F. Williams and the Deacons For Defense And Justice, everyone.

[friendly_iconoclast]

33. All you naysayers are just gonna *hate* this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x274215

Maine Becomes 38th State To Ask SCOTUS To Incorporate 2nd Amendment.

"Dustheap of history", anyone?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. The sweet smell of burning gunpowder and freedom.

[seeinfweggos]

41. having grown up gay in the south

granted, not a gay man which is the dangerous thing to be, but still aware of what can happen to you if you "just ain't right" i am a big supporter of the 2nd amendment.

http://www.pinkpistols.org/

[Tejas]

56. Belated welcome to the Gungeon where

it's a sport separating the antis from the grabbers, and spotting the grabbers disguising themselves as antis.

;)

[David__77]

51. I certainly don't want a state monopoly on arms.

There's nothing wrong with the people being armed.