Police: Criminals are packing more heat

[RamboLiberal]

Criminals increasingly are choosing high-powered firearms such as assault weapons, a new survey of 166 U.S. police agencies shows.

Nearly 40% of the departments reported an uptick in the use of assault weapons, according to the Police Executive Research Forum, a law enforcement think tank. In addition, half reported increases in the use of 9mm, .40-caliber and 10mm handguns in crimes — among the same types of weapons that police use. The survey offers one of the broadest indications of officers' concerns about the armed threat from criminals involved in murder, assault and other weapons-related offenses.

Among problems cited by police officials in interviews about the survey:

•Chicago: Seizures of assault weapons are up, from 264 in 2008 to 313 in 2009. Overall, 7,785 weapons were recovered this year, up from 6,963 in 2008. Chicago Police Superintendent Jody Weis says there is evidence that more weapons are being used per shooting and more shots are being fired.

•Milwaukee: Semiautomatic 9mm and .40-caliber handguns were used in the non-fatal shootings of six city police officers over a 21-month period, ending Sept. 30. "The quality of weapons (used by criminals) has changed dramatically in the past decade," Police Chief Edward Flynn says.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-12-16-guns-criminals-high-caliber_N.htm

[slackmaster]

1. I wonder what they mean by "assault weapons"

Since the term has neither a legal meaning or a generally accepted technical one.

[paulsby]

2. lol on the brady center

"president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, says the high-powered weapons endanger officers. If police say there's a problem, "public officials should be listening." "

there has always been a problem with bad guys having ANY weapons. of course, the vast majority of bad guys, are convicted felons, and thus prohibited from having any type of firearm.

but more to the point, this wasn't some kind of survey of actual police officers. this was done by the

"Police Executive Research Forum"

Police Executives... iow cop-o-crats. what a bunch of cop-o-crats say about police work is about as relevant as what a bunch of auto company execs say about the assembly line issues. why not ask the ASSEMBLY LINE workers. generally speaking, the viewpoints of cop-o-crats don't represent me, or most line officers. they represent MANAGEMENT, and also most cop-o-crats are political appointees, so they are going to be proxies for the mayors, etc that appoint them. not surprising that a police superintendant (cop-o-crat_ in chicago, is going to spout the chicago political structure party line - guns are bad, mmmkay. we are talking frigging chicago here, with some of the most restrictive firearms laws in the country

for example, in the recent lakewood shooting of 4 police officers, iirc a REVOLVER was used. there may in fact be an uptick in the use of assault weapons, but it's still true that the vast majority of officer shootings involve garden variety semi-autos like glocks, etc. not "assault weapons".

criminals tend to use the technology most readily available. for example, a great %age of crime now involves the use of the internet. because it's popular, widely available and convenient. wasn't true 10 yrs ago.

[iverglas]

4. does it hurt?

I mean, reaching like that must leave your muscles pretty sore.

What are you suggesting here?

These "cop-o-crats" made up the numbers they reported in the survey?

Spit it out, now.


http://www.policeforum.org/perf/overview.asp

Taking a Leadership Role

PERF assumes leadership on the difficult issues facing police. We encourage debate among members and the wider criminal justice community on controversial issues that affect public safety; fear of crime; and fair, humane treatment of all members of society. PERF is a leading voice in the media, legislative arena and among policy-makers for progressive policing. Two examples of PERF initiatives include:

Balancing Crime Strategies and Democratic Principles

Nationwide concern about perceived police misconduct in a number of urban, particularly minority, communities prompted PERF to convene police chiefs and community leaders to discuss anti-crime measures and police tactics. One significant result was PERF’s commitment to develop best-practice guidelines for traffic stops, which have been frequent flashpoints of discord between police and minority citizens.

Reducing Violent Crime Through Clergy-Police Collaboration

PERF assembled a group of major city police chiefs, clergy and government officials from around the country to explore clergy-police anti-violence initiatives. Community leaders and police officials shared their experiences with policy-clergy collaboration—a promising strategy to counteract the crime endemic to so many urban American neighborhoods.

They sound like exceptionally stupid and evil people to me.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

11. "Iverglass, go back to fucking canada", old mark??

I don't recall that I ever was fucking Canada, so how could I go back to doing it??

:shrug:

Fucking for Canada, now, there was a time ...

[gorfle]

37. I find myself...

...curiously aroused.

[iverglas]

40. you have just always wanted

to fuck Canada.

Don't think we don't know it!

A prenup would be required, of course.

No, you do not walk away with half our fresh water ...


in case it's needed

;)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

14. Yes the Brady Bunch are exceptionally stupid and evil people.

[old mark]

3. I did a paper on this in college. Police groups put out information

like this every few years. The used to refer to blacks and orientals crazed on drugs who were armed with .38 caliber revolvers when most police used .32's. This led to most US police departments adopting .38 Special revolvers, and Colt and S&W made a lot of money. Then the .357 was touted because it could "shoot through a car". It was adopted by many motorcycle patrol police for use on highway duty, a then new idea. In the early '60's, the 9mm auto pistol was tried by the Illinois State Police, a S&W 8 shot pistol. It was very different and required a lot of training to use well, and was not a success. A few years later, the auto pistol came into wide use when the "radical leftist militants" started robbing banks and the Black Panthers started carrying shotguns in public.
Now almost no police departments use revolvers.
Police typically use .40 cal 15 shot auto pistols now, and are probably going to ask for rifles and automatic rifles to augment their handguns and shotguns. Really a bad idea in any urban setting, but I have little doubt it will happen.

mark

[iverglas]

5. what the hell

is this supposed to have to do with the subject matter of this thread??

:wtf:

[C_Lawyer09]

6. Several cars in most departments have M-16's or AR-15's

Why? Remember the L.A. bank robbery where the cops were outgunned? I disagree that it's a bad idea. If you are going to make the urban setting argument, an AR-15 is much more accurate than any pistol.

[old mark]

9. AR15 is semi auto, M-16 are full auto or 3 round burst capable.

I don't think full auto rifles with over 300 yard range is a good idea in an urban setting.

mark

[C_Lawyer09]

22. I'm aware of the difference between the two

The most important factor isn't the type of weapon, it's the type of load in the round. If you do some research you'll find that accidents per capita are extremely minimal, the AR-15 isn't employed much. The cops I know that carry an AR (6) haven't fired one outside of training. I don't want to sound egotistical, but the AR is one of few rifles I highly doubt missing a stationary target at less than 350-400 yards. Obviously one would not employ the weapon under those conditions unless he were a sniper. There were several instances, that were a pre-cursor to departments issuing this weapon. If I were you I'd be quite a bit more worried about what illegal possessors of firearms are likely to do, and not the abilities of my local, county, state, law enforcement agency to execute proper gun handling procedures.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. The cops were outgunned BECAUSE they had AR-15's and other .223's.

Actually, most of them had not much more than shotguns, for for goblins wearing armor and flak jackets, only .308 NATO will do.

[SlipperySlope]

39. Not true.

.223 (5.56mm) ammunition is surprising hard to stop.

Look at http://www.armoredmobility.com/products_tacst.php">this chart for one example. Notice that the three red X's are all for variants of 5.56mm ammo.

Level III armor is generally not certified to stop 5.56mm rounds. I know it is surprising, but apparently the small cross-section and high velocity makes this a little tough.

[paulsby]

12. the police were right in many cases

although i certainly agree there is going to be a desire amongst line cops to have better (ie more powerful and higher capacity ) equipment GENERALLY speaking, even if it's not necessarily optimal.

old skool cops , at least in my agency, were perfectly happy to stick with the revolver (.357), which is frankly a very effective weapon (see: lakewood shooting) in capable hands, and much simpler in operation than a semi-auto. we let the old guys keep the revolvers as grandfathered.

look at the LA bank robbery shooting. these guys knew that LA line cops were not issued rifles, and that they could use body armor to easily defeat same. LA cops had to run to gun stores and "appropriate" real rifles in order to have a chance.

the times we actually USE rifles (iow fire them at a suspect) are very very rare. but WHEN they are needed, they are vastly superior to a handgun at stopping the threat. of course in an urban area, there are overpenetration concerns, etc. but given a sufficient amount of training, every patrol officer should have a rifle available to him. imnsho.

automatic rifles are used very rarely, even by SWAT and i've never heard of a patrol officer being issued one.

NYC fwiw, has a much much lower crime rate than in the bad old days, and in fact is a very safe city, comparatively speaking fwiw.

[spin]

16. Plenty of police departments in Florida already have full auto weapons...

Check out this report about military surplus weapons issued to the police in Florida. The list includes M-14 and M-16 rifles and grenade launchers.
http://www2.sptimes.com/pdfs/gunscharts.pdf

[Euromutt]

18. ARs are becoming more common as "patrol rifles," but with justification

There was some ballistics research done a few years ago that indicated that 55-gr hollow-point 5.56x45mm rounds have less risk of overpenetration than standard police-issue handgun rounds (Speer Gold Dots, Winchester Rangers, et al.) and even low-recoil 00-buckshot. An issue with the low-recoil buckshot rounds is that the pellets are hardened so as to maintain penetration, but that same hardening makes the pellets more likely to go through walls and other barriers.

So with the right ammunition, ARs are actually less of a liability, and have the option of slapping in a mag of armor-piercing rounds if a confronted perp turns out to be wearing body armor.

Hell, mainland European patrol cops typically have a submachine gun in the trunk. The Germans and Dutch have MP5s; various Belgian forces used to have FN-made Uzis, but have replaced them with P90s. They don't seem to cause too much mayhem.

[tburnsten]

27. Often European cops don't leave the SMG in the trunk

Can't say I blame them, considering that they often carried .32 ACP and .380 ACP pistols, pistols that US shooters view as more range toys and historical curiousities than anything else.

[Pavulon]

7. Quality, Like going from high point to glock. Are they using wilson custom 1911s

at 4500 a pop. That picture from the article shows a pile of trash. I would not fire any of that for fear of my limbs.

They probably switched to the "foty" because all the 9mm is no where to be found.

[benEzra]

8. And yet rifle homicide continues to decline...

to 2.6% of homicides last year, with rifle involvement in something on the order of 0.6% of nonfatal violent crimes.

Looks like someone is scaremongering again...

[paulsby]

13. scaremongering

by cop-o-crats in the great and safe city of chicago? why, that's SHOCKING!

:sarcasm:

[virginia mountainman]

15. This is an effect of the 68 Gun Control Act...

Up until that time, crooks and thieves, where most likely to be armed with cheap, foreign made revolvers, of very small caliber, like a .32 or .38. These guns, where very poorly constructed, and cheap. They also where very unreliable...

Enter the 68 Gun control law, that banned these "cheap imported" handguns...You know, they called them "Saturday Night Specials".....

In a few years, the pipeline of cheap handguns dried up, forcing the crooks, and thieves, to up gun, to good high quality Colt, or Smith and Wesson revolvers....

Now, 40 years past that legislation, practically all gun wielding felons, are carrying "high quality" name brand guns....

Remember, the anti-gunners had to sue Jennings, and other small American "cheap" gun makers out of the market several years ago....It is getting rarer to find a street hood armed with a cheap .25 anymore. Now they carry Glocks, Sigs, Berettas and Colts.... Guns whose reliability, is very high, not like a Jennings or a Raven .25, that MIGHT, or might NOT fire the first time, and if it does, it will jam on the 2nd round.

Glocks, Colts, and Smith and Wessons, and other name brand firearms tend to WORK, and WORK WELL....

Stupid anti-gunners, lack the complete ability to see the end result of ANY, of their legislation...

Then, when the dumb bastards fail, they want to pass MORE laws.....that are wrote with a total lack of understanding.

[one-eyed fat man]

32. crooks have historically used the same guns as cops

Back a couple of generations ago, they aspired to Colt and Smith 38's. Then it was the wondernines, heck if lyrics celebrating the gangsta life are any cultural indication "Glock" is almost as many articles of speech as "Fuck"

[jeepnstein]

33. True...

In some twisted way cops are role models for aspiring criminals. They always check out what you're packing and often want to know why. As the police adopt the AR15, so will a portion of the population who feels the need to be considered on equal footing with the police. They feel it gives them some kind of legitimacy in their own twisted world view.

[tburnsten]

17. Definitely a Ruger Blackhawk in there

Kind of surprising, makes me think that maybe at least some of those guns didn't come from criminal types, gang members, but from otherwise ordinary people in violation of some statute against possessing firearms. I can't see a single-action revolver being particularly sought-after by criminals.

[Euromutt]

20. It's just a stock photo, not actually made in connection with the article

You know, the web editor says "dress it up a little, find me a photo of a basket of guns or something," and that's what they dig up. Heaven only knows how old the photo is, or where it's from.

[tburnsten]

24. Good call

Does it say stock photo? Even if it doesn't you're probably still right. I get a kick out of all the times journalists completely misidentify firearms, even iconic firearms, it's inexcusable considering their job is to be accurate, well it used to be anyway.

[C_Lawyer09]

23. My favorite pistol

Definitely amongst the single action, GP-100 would be the other, closely followed by a S&W 686

[tburnsten]

25. I've had a 6" 586 and a 4" 686

And they were superb. 686 was pre-lock, fixed firing pin, and it had the nicest trigger I've ever felt on a revolver. I miss it.

[C_Lawyer09]

42. Believe it or not

I caught a SW '4 bass fishing ten years ago. Cleaned it up, and it shot as well as anything. I love revolvers because they are so damn sturdy and dependable. I bought a Taurus Judge, a little while back, kind of a novelty. Some don't like them because they say rather than accomplishing one task well, they do neither fair. Now, the groups with .410 shells are nothing to brag about, but the fun factor, being able to fire .45 long colt and the shells, well, I'll take the novelty.

[tburnsten]

43. Definite fun gun

I never really understood how anyone could get swept up in the marketing of that as a serious defense gun. Give the sucker an eight-inch barrel and market it as a recreational shooter and possibly a very short range small game/pest control gun, or ultimate anti-snake gun.

They do look fun though and I actually kind of want one. Don't tell anyone though.

[krispos42]

19. Breaking news: common guns in common calibers commonly used by common criminals!

Quick, somebody call Rick Romero!

[old mark]

21. Exactly. If there is any reality to this story, it is due to the fact that

these rifles have become much more common, and therefor more are stolen. They are also less expensive, and more are legally bought.

It's propaganda to agitate for "better armed" police.

mark

[tburnsten]

29. Police usually try to make it look like some kind of arms race

when they switch duty weapons, but in reality, criminals have always used whatever is common and ordinary, and what police carry is often what becomes the norm for recreational shooters, people looking for a defense weapon, sport shooters, and also criminals. It really isn't the big deal police organizations make it out to be, or even news at all.

[GreenStormCloud]

26. 9mm is "high powered'? LOL.

Left to right, .45ACP, .40, 9mm


The .45ACP, designed in 1904, was the mainstay of the U.S. Military from 1911 to 1985 when it was replaced by the 9mm Berreta 92F. The main reason for the change was for commonality with NATO and logistical reasons. The .45 is so effective as a man-stopper that it is still used by the FBI Hostage Rescue Team.

The advantage of 9mm handguns is that they can hold a large number of rounds in the magazine, up to 18, without using an extended magazine. A typical .45 holds seven in the magazine.

[tburnsten]

28. A typical .45 designed in 1910-1911 holds seven

Modern .45 pistols hold anywhere from 5 (very small concealed carry-oriented guns) to 15 rounds, depending on just how large a pistol and what it's construction is. And I don't really consider the .45 ACP to be high-powered either, they're both just service pistol calibers. Lethal, yes, but hardly anything special in the power department. Neither of them can push a very heavy bullet fast at all, or even a light one fast.

[Pavulon]

35. I just cant see the local thug crowd carrying a 1911 cocked and locked.

or appreciating a nice SIG226. These jerks use what they can steal and conceal. That is generally NOT rifles of any make. Pretty funny article.

[tburnsten]

36. Steal and conceal is exactly what they are about

You nailed it, the gang types I have met included a brother pair with some friends, they had an AR-15 but as far as actual carrying I know one had a Ruger 9mm and some sort of snub .357, and was interested in picking up other short barreled revolvers where possible. They were a pretty terrifying group, I'm glad I didn't spend more than an hour around any of them.

[benEzra]

31. Here's 9mm compared to a hunting-revolver cartridge...

namely .460 Smith & Wesson:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-margie/2257266154/

Of course, in media-speak, every cartridge above .22 Long Rifle is "high powered" (even 5.7x28mm out of a pistol length barrel).

[chandler2]

30. End the War on Drug Users & watch "crime" drop dramatically

Of course, the law enforcement business, the "justice" system (lawyers, bail bondsmen etc.), prison industry, suppliers of weapons & other
equipment for police departments...will holler like stuck piggies.

And, just to make sure that the public doesn't get any funny ideas about how destructive this particular war is, the controlled
media runs PR press releases like the one in the OP which was no doubt put out by the weapons industry's PR firm(s) in conjunction
with PR flacks for police departments from all across the fruited plains.

[GreenStormCloud]

34. Yes. The "war on drugs" is a driver from most of the crime in the U.S. N/T

[logjon]

41. I guess I have to be the one to point this out?

While we know gun crimes have been dropping statistically, somehow the use of both common pistol calibres and semi automatic rifles in crime are increasing?