We urgently need ice pick control!

[TPaine7]

SPRINGFIELD, Mo. -- A Missouri teenager is accused of stabbing a man with an ice pick in a dispute over a parking spot.

Eighteen-year-old Caitlen Watkins of Springfield was charged Monday in Greene County with first-degree assault and armed criminal action.

According to court documents, Watkins and a passenger in her car confronted another driver Sunday in the parking lot of a shopping center after he took a parking place Watkins wanted.

Witnesses told police a fight broke out and the other driver was stabbed half a dozen times with a wooden-handled, 5-inch ice pick. Police say the other driver suffered a punctured kidney.

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/21/caitlen-watkins-charged-i_n_400134.html

This woman was able to get this ice pick without fingerprinting, psychological evaluation, registration or finishing police academy. The results were predictable--in fact the Brazy Campaign to Prevent Ice Pick Violence predicted just such outcomes.

Obviously, any tool that can be used to assault people over parking spaces should be strictly controlled. He's lucky it was his kidney that was pierced and not his heart or brain. Who will join me in pressing for strict ice-pick control? Think of the children!!!

[rucky]

1. This is why I use my gun to pick ice, instead.

[rfranklin]

2. Well, you've made a point!

You have conclusively proven that you are obtuse.

[TPaine7]

6. You're no doubt part of the ice pick lobby

[rfranklin]

38. Phenomenal reply!

Once again proving my point. Thanks being so accommodating!

[sandnsea]

3. 1 ice pick murder a year, 29 gun murders a day

Really not a good comparison. Except that if there were 29 ice pick murders a day, we'd control ice pick sales without a second thought.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Murders or deaths? Its an important distinction

[sandnsea]

25. Gun Murders.

I really don't know the statistic for ice pick murders. But there aren't over 10,000 a year, I do know that.

[TPaine7]

27. Thanks for being honest.

I really don't know the statistic for ice pick murders.

I suspected that was NIPA propaganda. If you didn't get it directly from NIPA's site, you probably read it on some ice pick lobby blog.

But at least you're honest.

[TPaine7]

8. Please cite evidence for your "1 ice pick murder a year" stat,

unless, of course, it's just more NIPA (National Ice Pick Association) propaganda.

[rd_kent]

40. sandandsea hits and runs AGAIN!

[TPaine7]

42. To be fair, post 25 did acknowledge the truth. N/T

[SteveM]

50. 1 ice pick murder a year? More than deaths by machine gun (nt)

[jgraz]

4. This argument just never gets old.

It's just as dumb now as the first time someone thought of it.

[TPaine7]

7. I agree.

Forbidding the use of a tool because it can be misused is stupid. The stupidity is only apparent to you, however, when the tool in question IS NOT A GUN.

[jgraz]

10. Totally correct. I should be able to buy a nuke.

It's just for self defense, in case I'm the victim of a home invasion by Pakistan. I promise not to misuse it.

[TPaine7]

12. You cannot use a nuke for personal defense

if your assailant is invading your home.

I can't be bothered to explain it in detail, though I bet most people can figure out why.

[jgraz]

15. Again, the barest familiarity with sarcasm would help you a lot.

Really, look into it.

[TPaine7]

16. Ironic

It's sarcasm to take your opponent's sarcasm seriously and mock it.

[jgraz]

17. If that was sarcasm, you're really bad at it.

And no, I don't mean that sarcastically.

[TPaine7]

24. Your criticism wounds me. Sniff. N/T

[rd_kent]

41. You just got schooled with your own strawman and you have the audacity to try and change the subject

Yeah, you got schooled.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. Clearly you've never heard of the Corbomite Maneuver.

'Get out or I push the button'


Sociopathy. It's not just for breakfast anymore

[SteveM]

51. "...able to buy a nuke." Talk about an argument which never gets old...

Please be advised that "arms," as used in the Constitution and in the view of most every constitutional scholar, means a firearm able to be operated with one or both arms; all others need not apply (crew-manned guns, bazookas, tanks, MiGs, oh! and your nukes). Such will report to authorities for regulation.

[Demobrat]

9. When ice picks can be used as murder weapons

from a distance of over 10 feet away I will be happy to join your cause. In fact I will be happy to lobby for the banishment of any tool that can be used as a murder weapon from a distance, and without getting the killers hands dirty.

[TPaine7]

11. You are obviously unaware of knives (which can be thrown),

stones, long pointed sticks (which can be used as spears by throwing or thrusting), cowboy lassos (catch and drag), baseballs (a major league pitcher can easily kill from a distance),...

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. never mind that none of the objects you listed are terribly dangerous

except in the hands of someone who really knows how to use them - I, for one, couldn't throw a 90mph fast ball if my life depended on it. But any IDIOT can pull a trigger. It takes no skill to kill with a gun. It takes a LOT of practice to hit a target with a thrown knife, and that's with the target standing still.

I would easily take you on if you were armed with ANY of your dangerous list. You are clearly delusional if you equate those things with guns.

[TPaine7]

26. Follow the thread and visit a range.

I was responding to a post about tools that "can be used as murder weapons from a distance of over 10 feet away." I do not equate a gun and a sharp stick; that would be delusional.

But any IDIOT can pull a trigger. It takes no skill to kill with a gun. It takes a LOT of practice to hit a target with a thrown knife, and that's with the target standing still.

Any idiot can pull a trigger. And any idiot can easily HIT someone with a bullet if he's standing in the middle of a sea of people. But KILLING a person at a distance with a handgun, or even a moving person with a rifle, is a lot harder than you think.

Go to a range and with no instruction (outside safety, of course) try a head shot at a distance (you're going for a certain "kill", remember) using a pistol. Empty the magazine. It should be educational.

Trained officers often miss their targets with the majority of their shots, and sometimes with all of them. It's not like television.

[RaleighNCDUer]

32. The specified range was 10' - and yes, I'd sooner face anyone who is

armed with a knife, spear, baseball bat or icepick at 10' than someone with a handgun.

And only idiots try for a headshot. I could place 6 rounds in a handspan center mass in 4 seconds - I wouldn't need a headshot for 'certain kill'. With a moving target, I'm sure I'd get a couple hits at the very least.

You seem to equate killing with a handgun with 'skill'. When a 5 year old kills his baby brother with Daddy's gun, was that because of his hours spent at the range?

I know I'm never going to talk anyone in the gungeon out of their weird gun fetish - but some of you people should know that just because others don't like guns, it's not because we know nothing about them.

I'm outa here.

[friendly_iconoclast]

34. You're an an obvious shill for the atlatl lobby

The NAA (National Atlatl Association) sent the bat signal out, and the atlatl nuts came running.

Won't somebody think of the Neanderthals?

[TPaine7]

43. Classic!!!

:rofl:

[taurus145]

47. Keyboard fund donation. NOW!

:rofl:

[eqfan592]

36. Your 5 year old analogy is a major fail.

This has nothing to do with any sort of "weird gun fetish" you are projecting onto others around here. You're simply off base, pure and simple. Just because a 5 year old is capable of discharging a firearm accidentally and killing somebody does not mean there is inherently no skill involved employing a firearm for self defense.

So in spite of your claims to the contrary, your knowledge of firearms and their usage is suspect, at best.

And your little temper tantrum at getting called out for this does little to help your cause.

[TPaine7]

39. Don't get mad

The specified range was 10' - and yes, I'd sooner face anyone who is

armed with a knife, spear, baseball bat or icepick at 10' than someone with a handgun.

Good point. So would I, at least with a decent gun. (A cheap, inaccurate mousegun vs a decent knife might be a different matter.)

I could place 6 rounds in a handspan center mass in 4 seconds...

Clearly then, you were not "any idiot."

I could place 6 rounds in a handspan center mass in 4 seconds - I wouldn't need a headshot for 'certain kill'. With a moving target, I'm sure I'd get a couple hits at the very least.

Six rounds in a handspan center mass do not necessarily equate to a fatality. A couple hits on a moving target definitely don't.

You seem to equate killing with a handgun with 'skill'. When a 5 year old kills his baby brother with Daddy's gun, was that because of his hours spent at the range?

No. But we were talking about a person killing someone from 10'. How many 5 year olds do you think kill their siblings from that distance? That would be a tiny fraction (if any) of the tiny and declining number of tots who kill their siblings with a gun.

but some of you people should know that just because others don't like guns, it's not because we know nothing about them.

Apparently you know something about guns. But that helps me by proving that you are not "any idiot."

[SteveM]

53. Oh, fetish, shmetish. You really want someone to live like you...

"I know I'm never going to talk anyone in the gungeon out of their weird gun fetish..."

First you accuse folks in the "gungeon" (presumably those who are pro-2A) as having fetishes, then you assume moral authority to talk them out of said fetishes, which seem to be centered on one's 'like' (or in your case) "dislike" of guns. What a sloppy-assed way to address an argument. The rest of your "5 year old" argument is nothing but: My morals are more moral than your morals.

You don't like 2A defenders here, and you throw the kitchen sink when attacking them.

You have no morally-superior high ground, so don't assume it.

[eqfan592]

28. Given the average distance that is between attacker and victim....

...(which is somewhere around 20ft at most) at the start of any homicide, a person can be equally lethal with a knife, baseball bat, etc, as they can with a gun, and there would be no need to throw any of those objects due to the ability to close the distance very rapidly.

But all of this is beside the point if you remember that any sort of firearms ban will not remove firearms from the hands of criminals, and instead will simply disarm those with no criminal intent. I'd rather face any attacker if I myself am armed with a firearm than if I'm armed with a knife or a baseball bat. Also, to say it takes "no skill" to kill with a gun is simply not true. But it is true to say that it's easier to learn the operations of a firearm than it is to go through the process of becoming a "skilled" baseball bat or knife wielder.

But when it comes down to it, in just about any situation where a person is being attacked, the advantage is to the attacker if the attacker is armed in anyway if they are facing a victim who is at most armed with a bat or knife. This changes dramatically if the victim is armed with a firearm, even if the attacker is also armed with a firearm. The firearm is a great equalizer.

Want to stop violent criminals? Go after the causes of violence, not the implements that some criminals happen to use, ignoring the far greater number of defensive uses of that same implement.

[beevul]

44. Just WOW.

"It takes no skill to kill with a gun."

My advice: watch less tv/movies. Accuracy which is actually required to hit what you aim at, is required under most circumstances. Pretending it doesn't exist does not help your argument.


And never assume you wont run into someone who can throw an 80-85 mile per hour fastball.

[taurus145]

48. No skill? Get a grip.

Let's head out to a combat range and see how you fare. There's almost zero risk of firearm (or any other) related injury there.

Ever been in a real life or death situation with an attacker? I have. No skill = dead.

[SteveM]

52. I'm going deer-hunting tomorrow. Please, can I used my hunting knives? (nt)

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. Gee, I wonder what kind of shape the other guy would be in

if he'd been shot a half dozen times.

[jgraz]

18. Shhh.... we don't allow facts and logic in the Gungeon!

Quiet, you'll frighten the natives!

[TPaine7]

21. Speak for yourself (as you obviously did)

...we don't allow facts and logic in the Gungeon!

[one-eyed fat man]

33. yeah, cloistered academes

never been no place, never done nuthin' think Rambo is a documentary, and whose only marksmanship training has come from watching reruns of the A-Team.

Never have seen what murderous mobs can do with farm implements. You don't know the stench of death until you have been to see what tribal animosities and farm implements can do.



Tutsis hacked to pieces by Hutus.



No tool will replace a truly murderous heart with a mind convinced it is doing "God's work" as key ingredients to unremitting violence.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

- -Blaise Pascal

[jgraz]

37. Y'know, I'm sure there are several fine facilities in your area that treat PTSD.

I'd consider looking them up if I were you.

[one-eyed fat man]

46. The veteran population of the US

is just under 25 million with a median age of 56. So roughly 94% ONLY military service has been avoidance. What's your excuse, convenience or cowardice?

[Callisto32]

49. A person with a view contrary to yours must be sick, right?

Making light of PTSD is just...mean. Grow some compassion.

[GreenStormCloud]

62. We have observed that you are quite strict in your obediance to your rule. N/T

[TPaine7]

19. Depending on the weapon and the marksmanship, he could be better off.

Or he could have a punctured kidney and be in precisely the same condition.

Who knows?

[one-eyed fat man]

29. an icepick

will easily defeat a Class II vest where a .44 magnum won't!

Ballistic vests use layers of very strong fiber to "catch" and deform a bullet, mushrooming it into a dish shape, and spreading its force over a larger portion of the vest fiber. The vest absorbs the energy from the deforming bullet, bringing it to a stop before it can completely penetrate the textile matrix. Some layers may be penetrated but as the bullet deforms, the energy is absorbed by a larger and larger fiber area.

While a vest can prevent bullet penetration, the vest and wearer still absorb the bullet's energy. Even without penetration, modern pistol bullets contain enough energy to cause blunt force trauma under the impact point. Vest specifications will typically include both penetration resistance requirements and limits on the amount of impact energy that is delivered to the body.

Vests designed for bullets offer little protection against blows from sharp implements, such as knives, arrows or ice picks. This is because the impact force of these objects stays concentrated to a relatively small area, allowing them to puncture the fiber layers of most bullet-resistant fabrics.

The damage bullets would have done, even a half dozen, all depend on what body parts get damaged. A knitting needle through the subclavian artery is a lot more worrisome than a shotgun slug hitting the little toe. Someone with a good knowledge of anatomy is capable of more damage than someone flailing away trusting to luck.

[TPaine7]

30. Perhaps they should be called "cop killer assault picks,"

since they can defeat body armor and function on some of the same basic principles as military knives--weapons of war--used by Seals and Marine recon teams.

These National Ice Pick Association shills are disgusting!

[friendly_iconoclast]

35. I blame the scary black ergonomic handle for this

Nobody needs anything more than the traditional party-style ice pick...

[rd_kent]

14. Without more icepick control, blood will run in the streets! Do it for the children!

[SteveM]

54. More likely, blood will run in your ice chest. (nt)

[east texas lib]

57. Good one! (nt)

:D

[JDPriestly]

20. We need anger management training.

It can actually help, especially if you give a person information about how to deal with anger BEFORE they reach criminal or child dependency court.

[GreenStormCloud]

63. I notice that you use the first person, plural, "We" in your stated need for such training.

You will be pleased to know that in most states that have shall-issue CCW systems, the required classses include exactly that, and conflict de-escalation. Further, we are all screened by the FBI. Serious anger issues will have almost always gotten a person into trouble with the court system so that they will have a police record. If a person has a history of violent behavior, they are not allowed to have a CCW.

[StarfarerBill]

23. I like to use my icepick to shoot with...

because it doesn't have bullets, you see.

[guardian]

31. Moreover...you need to remove the demand for ice picks

Therefore we must have new legislation on ice control. If the ability to possess ice were constrained and controlled then we could remove the demand for ice picks.

Maybe that's why you can't get ice in the UK. :-)

[burrfoot]

45. I would like to suggest

serial numbers, laser etched onto the "blade" of each and every of these evil, tactical assault picks in existence.

Never again accept "oh, I lost that ice pick years ago at a key party in the '70's" or "hey, I didn't even know that ice pick had been stolen at my last tiki/cabana bash!" as an excuse!!!!

[StarfarerBill]

55. Will the anti-icepick movement use Leon Trotsky as their poster boy?

[east texas lib]

58. Ice pick control means cubes will soon gain the upper hand and run wild in the streets!

Cooling and cooling again and again without remorse! Oh,the humanity! Oh, the latent heat of
evaporation! :scared:

[Katya Mullethov]

59. There is the eco angle

There would be a lot less freon vented into the atmosphere from improperly defrosted freezers .

[east texas lib]

60. I ruined a old GE fridge once with an ice pick when I was a kid.

My grandfather had to work many, many hours to replace it. I helped him in his small tractor repair
for a long time attempting to atone for my error.

[TPaine7]

61. Just another example of the evil influence ice picks exert on young people.

Some mock us ice pick control advocates, but we KNOW that ice picks embolden crime and exert a malevolent, supernatural influence over their possessors--much like Sauron's ring.

It's good to see that you tore yourself from the icepick's dread influence and became an upstanding member of DU. Not all of our youth are so fortunate.

[east texas lib]

64. So true, so true!

It was much, much easier to escape the influence of the pot, alchohol, pills, coke, black tar heroin,
"assault weapons", handguns, 100 millimeter cigarettes and Telemundo soap operas than it was to
escape the evil point singularity-like influence of the ICE PICK.

[Katya Mullethov]

65. You might oughtta give soldering irons a try

[east texas lib]

66. Good one!

Rosin core...yeah, that's the ticket.:D