Another TSA Security Goof? Details of Air Marshal Guns

[RamboLiberal]

With the approval of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), the Sig Sauer gun company has released specific information about the model of pistol that Federal Air Marshals will soon be carrying – data that both current and former Air Marshals say puts the Marshals and air passengers at risk.

"This is the last thing you want to give to anyone who wants to carry out an act of terror," said Frank Terreri, president of the Federal Air Marshal Agency, a trade group representing the Marshals. "Anyone who wants to take over a plane can be proactive and research that type of weapon, basically know everything about that weapon before going on the plane," said Terreri. "You really don't want to give that playbook out to your enemy."

John Adler, president of the National Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, which represents officers from more than 65 federal agencies, including the Federal Air Marshal Service, said the gun information was part of "an alarming pattern of disclosures" by the TSA that only serves to jeopardize the safety of the (Air Marshals)."

The Sig Sauer company announced via press release late last week that it had signed a multimillion dollar contract to equip the Air Marshals with its .357 SIG caliber P250 Compact pistol. In the release, the company said the "innovative design concept of the P250 pistol is developed around a serialized modular frame and fire control assembly."

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/tsa-security-cops-blast-release-handgun-information/story?id=9403793

Big whoop IMHO - I don't see how this jeopardizes Air Marshals.

[RC]

1. The basic idea of how guns work has been out in the wild for years.

You pull the trigger, there is a loud noise and whatever is lined up with the round hole on the front end, gets damaged.
What else do you need to know about an air Marshals gun if you're were a bad guy?

[taurus145]

2. What?

Almost anyone with any firearms experience or training should have no problem with those pistols if they get their hands on one from an air marshal - or any other handgun for that matter.

It's not as though they're giving out the formula for and properties of a super secret hush-a-bomb.

[Lurks Often]

3. Huh?

Can't see why they are getting all bent out of shape about this. There is nothing significantly different about the Sig P250 compared to the dozens of other handgun models out there.

[Pavulon]

4. Public knowledge now

they use p229 and or a p239 backup. Same rig as the secret service because they are managed by former secret service administrators.

The real question is why the 250 over the 229. The 229 is a double / single action that can be cocked into single action. The 250 is double action only and (imho) not as good as a 229 for a myriad of reasons.

DAO is an inferior configuration.

[tburnsten]

11. I wouldn't call it inferior in most scenarios, but for Air Marshals,

It absolutely is. Honestly something like a USP that can be carried cocked-and-locked would be even better, to allow the most precise shot possible right away so that they have all the odds they can get in their favor to help prevent a miss. I'm sure everyone here understands how horribe a missed shot inside a packed airliner would be, nothing but innocent bystanders EVERYWHERE around them. It's a concealed carry nightmare shot.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. Excuse me sir

but what could be better than a DAO pistol in condition 0 for this purpose.

Draw > Pull Trigger > Bang

No stupid manual safety. Hell, they should have Springfield XD's. DAO isn't inferior, unless you're carring in condition 3.

[RamboLiberal]

14. A DAO in an airplane where a precision shot is needed

is not the best because of the heavier trigger pull IMHO. One advantage though to the Sig 250 is the second strike capability which many other pistols do not have. But I suppose with a lot of training the Air Marshals can shoot the Sig 250 better than most.

[tburnsten]

16. Massad Ayoob is a huge proponent of DAO

And likes to show that DAO guns can be shot just as well as their DA/SA counterparts, but still, if it were me, I would be happier with a different trigger than the Sig DAO.

[RamboLiberal]

18. Ayoob is a fan of DAO for cops because he's had too many cases

where a cop has killed or wounded a suspect or had an AD injuring an innocent or themselves with a single action, lightened trigger or cocked pistol or revolver. Heck cops shot themselves so many times holstering Glocks when they first came on the scene they ended up in many PD's mandating the heavier NY trigger.

Cops are usually in a different situation than an Air Marshal where shots would have to be in a crowded plane where a miss may well hit an innocent passenger or crew. Just my humble opinion they might do better with an accurized pistol like a Glock, XD, M&P, etc than a heavier pull.

I read Ayoob's take on cases whenever I see his writing. He brings an interesting view on some cases I've read about in other venues.

[tburnsten]

19. It seems to me that he legitimately likes DA trigger pulls

and not just for the potential for accident reduction they offer. I've got one of his books, and I think the 7th edition Combat Handgun that he wrote, and they are a good read, he isn't over the top about things and always bring as positive a light as possible to the topics he writes about. In the handgunning book there is one picture that I remember of him standing with a target and a Beretta 96D, captioned something to the effect of "don't let anyone tell you a DAO pistol can't be accurate", I think he probably learned to shoot on revolvers and has the smooth rolling DA pull down like a champ.



That's my guess, I know he is a member of Glocktalk, but doesn't post very often. I wonder if he'd respond if I sent him a PM and asked briefly if he prefers DAO triggers for their shooting characteristics or if the liability/safety benefit came first and he just learned to love them?

[RamboLiberal]

24. Ayoob has been a gun writer & a cop for quite a bit of time

and is comfortable with most handguns. I don't think he's a particular fan of any trigger pull except for perhaps having a belief that most police agencies may be better off with DAO pistols since cops are the most likely to have their guns pointed at suspects with finger on the trigger and the threat of an AD is higher because of stress, movement, etc.

Again when quick and extremely accurate shots are needed in a situation like an Air Marshal an SA or a trigger like a Glock, XD, M&P, etc. would be the better option.

For instance in the competitive world like USPSA or IDPA where incidentally Ayoob also competes you find almost no DAO guns and very few DA/SA guns like Sigs among competitors because of the issue of fast & accurate. Only exception are revolvers but even then the best competitors will surely have a trigger job.

[tburnsten]

25. He didn't like the 340 PD he had one bit

Little bastard was shooting about 15" low at eight-ten yards. It was awful.


I think he could make any trigger setup work, and I think he has trained hard enough to make any trigger system work, and appreciate any trigger system. I think he is of the midset that it takes a truly atrocious trigger to really prevent a shooter who puts a reasonable amount of practice into it from becoming a decent marksman.


Recently I have become more enamored of the DA trigger, now that I understand it and know how to use it. Buying a 686 with a silky trigger was what facilitated that for me. I am not sure I'll ever have trouble with another trigger setup again.


I also agree that the Glock trigger would probably be about perfect for the type of situation the Air Marshalls would need to fire at a person in. Nice and short, not too heavy but not so light it requires a manual safety to avoid a mechanical failure, great reset. Never tried the XD or M&P triggers, but I have two Glocks, a 23 and a 27, swapped out both triggers for smooth face triggers, put in LWD 3.5# connectors, probably going to put the stock 5.5# back in pretty soon. And I used a half round file to make the safety bar fit the trigger contour, it makes them ten or thirty times more comfortable.

[tburnsten]

15. I'm just thinking that the trigger most conducive to accuracy

is probably the one you want to go with in an airplane, when the Air Marshal may have to fire at someone nearly the length of the plane away from them, while surrounded by dozens or hundreds of innocent bystanders all packed into a tiny space. Not much margin for error there. I like DAO in some pistols, like Glock triggers, even though they are more DAO-ish than actual DA.o.

[Callisto32]

5. Isn't the duty weapon of a government agency public information?

Can't anybody just go get an armorers manual?

Seems like much ado about nothing.

[rd_kent]

6. Not sure how this is a problem.

Unless the gun the marshal's are using has some kind of tracking device, I do not see how this type of info puts anyone in danger.

[X_Digger]

7. Exactly how does this hurt security?

The whole idea of 'security through obscurity' always leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

I imagine the thinking goes something like this- "If a terra-ist wrestles a gun from an air marshal, he'd know how to use it now!"

Thing is, there are only a couple of different layouts of controls on pistols (after all, they're all designed to be fired by human hands) so any aspiring terra-ist would only have to study a few different guns ahead of time to know how to operate any pistol a marshal was carrying.

If handguns were so different that it takes a lot of study to use one, there'd be no way to have something like a 'basic pistol' course at your local gun range.

If the concern is someone getting their hands on an air marshal's gun, then why don't they consider adapting something like the magloc technology that only allows the wearer of a magnetic ring to fire the gun?

[RamboLiberal]

12. With you on that - this from the stupid agency

That made Air Marshals wear suits & ties. Nice way to blend in guys on that flight to a vacation spot. :sarcasm: Wonder if that policy is still in effect.

[Hangingon]

21. If you want to try impersonating n Air Marshal, you can get

the correct model pistol. Course, there are most likely govt and agency markings. You would have to fake badges and id. Long shot

[X_Digger]

23. Point, but..

.. how many TSA people are likely to be able to tell one model of pistol from another? I doubt the marshals go through the same entrances as regular folks, so there's still a level of scrutiny that's unknown.

[Hangingon]

26. To impersonate an air marshal

would take a lot more than the right model pistol, After I wrote this response I googled TSA and found badges for sale - and I didn't have to look for that. I suspect there is more than enough out there to help a would be impersonator, The bad guys test our systems and probably infiltrate out organizations. Probably would not be too hard to become a baggage screener.

Rather than worry about the pistol, I think details of the ammo would be more helpful to a terrorist.

[benEzra]

29. An Air Marshal would *never* be ID'd by the model of pistol she/he was carrying...

and there are not always agency/department markings on issue pistols.

If someone can fake Air Marshal ID and the corresponding information they are matched with, the model of pistol they had would be irrelevant, as they would not be searched and could be bringing anything on board (not just a pistol).

[Hangingon]

30. I don't think they would use a pistol as id either.

The whole scenario of marshal impersonation seems a long shot. It would assume a penetration of our security agencies. But as I said above, badges are available on the web. This surprised me. If manuals have been published id credentials are probably available. The pistol would only complete the impersonation. I agree that if you can fake being an air marshal, you could get anythhing on the plane.

[benEzra]

32. I would hope they use something a little more secure than just a printed ID...

not just for Air Marshals, but for flight deck personnel, TSA checked baggage screeners, and so on.

[Hangingon]

34. Me too but I wouldn,t count on it.

The military does a great job with their ids but not all civilian agencies. Besides, even these can be duped. I think we under rate these guys to our peril. These guys - at least the leadership - are often well educated people. They have financing and probably help from some governments. I don't think they are not evil geniuses, but they are smart enough to keep adjusting to our systems. Again, I think faking an air marshal is a stretch. That doesn't mean we should we should rule it out.

[Ihaterush]

8. How does this hurt security?

I really don't think this a problem. Handguns are handguns. Any "proactive research" would not benift the possible terrorist at all. There is no atvange to know what model gun the marshals are using.

[Taitertots]

9. I could see if there was a secret level to disable it

Disclosing that would jeopardize them.

Or a RFID tag inside of them.
Or if the guns would make it through security detectors.

But there is nothing a potential hijacker couldn't learn with a couple hours and google.

[tburnsten]

10. Frank Terreri sounds like a self-important doucher

And so does John Adler. Seriously, how does the make, model, and caliber of Air Marshal pistols have any impact whatsoever on a hijacker's attack?

"they could research every aspect of that weapon" and what, make special headgear that deflects .357 Sig and ONLY .357 Sig bullets fired from a Sig pistol? So they could know an awful lot about the pistol that is going to be used by an Air Marshal to end their attempted hijacking?


These guys represent the worst in American law enforcement, I have no doubt that the two of them refer to everyone else as "civilians".

[benEzra]

17. I don't think the disclosure "helps terrah-ists", and heck, it might actually aid deterrence.

That is the primary purpose of putting Air Marshals and armed flight crews on airline flights, after all.

Releasing details of which routes are covered by Air Marshals/armed crews and which ones are not could be helpful to potential attackers and would reduce deterrence (by allowing someone so inclined to choose unprotected flights). Details of what gun the Air Marshals use doesn't do that, particularly when it's a very high quality and capable firearm (basically .357/125gr ballistics out of a magazine-fed pistol).

And BTW, merry Christmas to all!

[Xela]

20. Next thing you know...

They'll want to stop Marshall/Sanow from "disclosing" information.

This is the kind of bullcrap (official's statements) I expect from goverments like Mexico.

Pluh-ease...

Xela

[Retired AF Dem]

22. Since the Sig 250 was on the open market

before the TSA adopted it, where is the problem of secrets and stuff? The Sig 250 is not really popular with the gun buying public, not one of Sigs best designed pistols.

[Xenotime]

27. It's foolish to take guns on any plane in the first place.

[benEzra]

28. Why?

A pistol bullet will neither decompress nor take down a plane.

A lot of TSA policies are just counterproductive BS, but the Federal Air Marshals program is IMO a good one, if at times ham-handedly administered (the dress codes are counterproductive to the mission, for example).

A lot of people are not aware that this program preceded 9/11 by many years.

[Xenotime]

31. And what good has it done?

[benEzra]

33. El Al has a *VERY* good success rate with theirs.

The only successful hijack of an El Al flight was over 40 years ago. El Al has discreetly armed marshals on every flight, AFAIK.

As to ours, the primary purpose to the expanded Air Marshal and armed-cockpit-personnel programs are deterrence. Releasing details of the agents' guns does not hinder that mission, although releasing details of which routes are protected and which routes are defenseless would.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. Why would that be?

[Tim01]

36. Just like gay marriage,huh? It's just a bad idea.

Would you care to give any reason at all why it is a bad idea to have guns on a plane? Any at all?


Here is why it is a good idea to have them on the plane. An air marshal with a .357 Sig stands a pretty good chance against a couple of bad guys with box cutters. An unarmed air marshal doesn't.