CCW holder shoots unarmed man and is charged

[safeinOhio]

http://freep.com/article/20091229/NEWS01/91229061/1319/After-3-break-ins-Detroit-man-calmly-shoots-kills-intruder-cops-say

So when he found two men in his backyard on the 8600 block of Manistique at 12:30 a.m. Monday, the east-side resident — who is licensed to carry a gun — gave chase, Detroit police said.
One man got away through the streets south of Jefferson and Alter. The other stopped running, turned around, put his hands up and, according to a police source, taunted the 31-year-old homeowner.
“What are you going to do?” Herbert Silas of Detroit reportedly asked, his hands still in the air. “Shoot me?”
“Absolutely,” Croff told investigators he replied before pulling the trigger, the source said. Silas was hit once in the chest, killing him
Silas, 53, was unarmed when he was fatally shot, Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office spokeswoman Maria Miller said today.
Croff now faces charges of second-degree murder and felony firearm, Miller said. He is set to be arraigned at noon Wednesday in Detroit’s 36th District


I don't think he was paying attention in CCW class.

[burrfoot]

1. Seems to have missed the gist. Going to get what he deserves now. n/t

[baldguy]

2. I wonder how many gun worshipers will crawl out of the woodwork & defend this creep.

[safeinOhio]

3. Guns did get two off of the streets making Detroit safer.

A crook and a dummy.

[PavePusher]

5. Seriously?

You think anyone is going to defend this guy?

Are you that deluded about firearm owners?

[eqfan592]

32. In short, yes. Yes he is. (nt)

[krispos42]

10. Not I n/t

[taurus145]

14. Collectively, we are gun owners and users.

Go drive by a dump. The odor will match your spouting.

[baldguy]

15. I guess nobody actually *read the story* or *read the comments to it*.

"I empathize with this man-he snapped but at the same time, he had it together enough to pull out a gun, chase these guys, and shoot one of them and then give a calm report to the police. Once the guys were off his property it was over-much less, the fact that the man held up his arms to show he had no weapon."

"I know one thing, for sure. If more things like this happened, less things like this would happen."

"This case isn't worth pursuing. No sane jury would send this man to prison."

"He shoulda drug this scumbag back to his house by his dreadlocks and dumped him in his living room. Case closed....justified shooting."

"This guy deserves a medal. Took one more piece of trash off the streets...permanently. Please print a "defense fund" for this guy...I will contribute handsomely."

"bravo!!! this guy should be set free and clear just to send a message to all the scumbags. how many times are decent people convicted on serious charges just to "set an example". it's about time we start making examples to the scum of this city.

"Good for the homeowner! One more piece of sh&#@% off the streets, if only he had killed the other intuder as well. Oh well, he'll get his..."

"Why did he tell the police the truth? He should have dragged him back to the house and shot him again"



and there's plenty more at the OP's link.

[spin]

38. If you could ask a group of people who had concealed carry permits ...

for their comment, the majority would tell you that the shooter was wrong.

Under the law, this was a bad shooting.

It's always wise not to taunt a person who has a firearm pointed at you by saying,"What are you going to do? Shoot me?"

That, in now way, excuses the shooter. It's just good advice.

Now you don't tug on Superman's cape.
You don't spit in the wind.
You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger.
And you don't mess around with Jim.

"You Don't Mess Around With Jim" - Jim Croce

[rd_kent]

16. Probably none since there are no gun worshippers here.

But there are mouth breathing idiots that post hyperbolic flamebait though.

[Callisto32]

22. I don't defend people who initiate violence on others, thanks.

[gorfle]

31. I will.

According to the article, the man had his home broken into three times in the past week.

He finally had enough of lawlessness and snapped.

The burglar got what he deserved. I feel bad for the homeowner.

[eqfan592]

35. While I don't exactly pity the crook....

...at the same time, people shouldn't go out of their way to shoot somebody unless they honestly feel like their life is in immediate danger. From the story, it doesn't appear that was the case. It'll be up to a jury to decide now, in any case.

I do understand being PO'ed about break-in's, but gunning a guy down in the streets after he no longer poses an immediate threat isn't the answer, IMHO.

[gorfle]

41. Yup.

Yup, and the law is on your side.

However, after having his house broken into three times in a week, and then catching the latest guy to do it, and then being taunted by said criminal, I can totally sympathize with him granting the criminal's taunt.

That's exactly why scum like that burglar do what they do - they don't think anyone will do anything to them for their thuggery.

He guessed wrong.

[Skim Diesel]

43. wow...

you truly are something...

Obviously this guy went overboard. I don't think any rational thinking firearm owning citizen would condone this action.

But that's not my point. My point is how you immediately went to demonize gun owners as being less intelligent. How we would come to this guy's aid without thought just because he owned a firearm... Very clear what you think of those that exercise their 2nd amendment right.

ugh. really. ugh.

[Ikonoklast]

4. Say hello to your new friends in prison, dumbass.

Along with that CCW permit goes great responsibility.

[OhioBlue]

8. I wish some of them realized that responsibility.

there is a guy at work that thinks he is the new John Wayne or something because of his CC permit. He brags about it, talks about guns all the time, even theorizes about the possibility of shooting someone. My step-dad is a retired cop. He isn't exactly against CC - but he stresses that there should be much, much more training than there currently is. Police officers are trained on how to deal with a suspect - joe schmo w/ concealed carry, thinks he is too - but he isn't. Professionalism is being diminished in every aspect of our lives. a return to the wild west seems to be something many in Ohio are okay with.

[safeinOhio]

9. I've taken CCW classes in two states

The first one it was an open book test. No one failed

The second. The instructor went over every question on the test just before taking it. No one failed.

I think the bar could be raised.

[doc03]

13. I took the CCW class myself and we also had an

open book test. The test we took was the Basic NRA Handgun Safety Course and there were absolutely zero questions pertaining to the CCW law. I was disappointed with the class, the training on the CCW law consisted of giving us a copy of the law. The way I understand it the requirements for the CCW permit are to pass the Basic NRA Handgun Safety Course and you must receive a copy of the CCW Law.

[eqfan592]

34. The Wild West, eh?

http://www.guncite.com/wild_west_myth.html

It's a good read :)

[Katya Mullethov]

42. A DGU with an avenging angel , neat .

you dont hear too much about those sawed off colts . I sometimes wonder about the tactical advantages a black powder pistol might present . You can totally freak out your target , set him on fire ,blind him, poke a hole in him , and then dissapear like a ninja before the billowing cloud of smoke dissapates .

[east texas lib]

6. Very bad move on the part of the shooter.

I would imagine he'll do a stretch in the joint. Evidently a bad move on the part of the shootee, too. He had to ask, didn't he?

[doc03]

7. You failed to mention the guy's house had been broken into 3

times in the last week. Had he shot the guy trying to break down his door I would say he was justified in shooting him. Just catching someone in your backyard doesn't give you a reason to chase him down and shoot them.

[safeinOhio]

12. I also failed to mention that

he found the 2 in his backyard, not in his house.

[aikoaiko]

11. Unless there is a whole lot more to the story, 2nd degree murder was a gift.

Chasing a criminal is fine. Capturing a criminal is fine. Shooting a criminal when they no longer pose a threat -- that's criminal.

Again perhaps there is more to the story, but the shooter's actions sound indefensible.

[RealityInSeattle]

17. This is not uncommon

http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

9 law enforcement officers have been killed by CCW types.

So much for all that responsibility and training...

[GreenStormCloud]

18. So you would strip almost 5,000,000 people of the permits over the actions of 9?

It took over two years to compile those 9. Your are trying to paint all of us CCWers as evil over the action of about 1 in 1,000,000 per year. No group of adults on earth is perfectly safe, but CCWers have a far superior record to other groups, especially the general population.

[pipoman]

19. Actually it is the actions of 7,

based solely on initial news reports, not court documents or other official sources. Also of these 7 only 1 (one) has been convicted of anything. More VPC scarecrow propaganda, as you pointed out the numbers are tighter than most any other demographic.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. Been carrying for 8 years.

Not a single miss-step yet. So yeah, I am responsible and well-trained.

The shitbag in the OP actually engaged in vigilante justice. A charge often leveled at CPL holders by people such as yourself, but rarely applies.


By the way, the VPC's numbers smell like... some sort of fish.

[Euromutt]

23. Though in your case (and mine), any training is voluntary

Since Washington doesn't have a training requirement to get a CPL. Which was useful for me, since the courses are typically "bring your own gun," and I didn't buy my first handgun until a few months after I got my CPL.

[AtheistCrusader]

30. Exactly.

And training may not be 'hit what you aim at' but rather 'know the law, inside and out'.

[pipoman]

21. "Not uncommon" huh?

By those standards neither is human lightning strikes. The odds of a human being struck by lightning is 1 : 280,000, if, IF, the 7 people in the VPC piece you posted are in fact guilty of anything (which isn't the case yet as only 1 of the 7 have been convicted of anything), the odds of a ccw holder killing a police officer based on the only estimate I have heard of 5 million ccw holders, it would make the odds <3 : 5,000,000 or 1 : 1,666,666.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/probability.html

So...Human lightning strike odds 1 : 280,000, CCW shooting police officer maybe, MAYBE 1 : 1,666,666. So it is 6 times more likely a cop will be struck by lightning than shot by a ccw holder.

Not uncommon my ass...not really interested in 'reality' after all, huh?

[GreenStormCloud]

25. Actually, CCW holders are 15 times safer than lightning.

Those lightning strike stats are for one year. VPC took about a two and a half years to reach they total they have now. When that is taken into account, an LEO is 15 times more likely to be struck by lightning than shot by a CCWer. Thanks for the links. I will make a separate thread of it.

[Pavulon]

24. You should pick a new issue.

this one is dead. It is like arguing that blacks cant sit at the lunch counter. The ship has sailed on jim crow and it has sailed on gun control. Any party trying to bring either back will find itself destroyed at the polls.

How many people did POLICE officers murder (wives, illegal shootings) in the same time span?

The 90's are over, the great bamboozle has past. Now people want real solutions, not gun control ignored by criminals.

[slackmaster]

27. Actually, the statistics you cite say just the opposite

It is very uncommon.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. A grand total of 12 convictions in the 107 killings. It all sounds pretty damn rare to me.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. 4 of the 9 were killed by people legally barred from having a CCW.

[SteveM]

33. That crime rate in Seattle caught up with Bloomberg's NYC rate, yet?

[eqfan592]

36. Oh my fucking god.

Look at the numbers, do the math, then tell us all exactly "how dangerous" CCW permit holders are. I use that VPC cite to show people exactly how unlikely you are to be shot by a CCW permit holder unjustly. You're posting information that HURTS YOUR CASE, as is the VPC. Only the willfully ignorant look at that site and are incapable of reasoning things out rapidly.

[rd_kent]

37. You may be in Seattle, but are NOT in reality. How about a response here? Or are you embarassed?

Its ok to admit when you are wrong. we will actually RESPECT you for it, not ridicule you.

[slackmaster]

26. Definitely not a lawful self-defense shooting

I don't think he was paying attention in CCW class.

That's about the size of it.

[GreenStormCloud]

39. He is a security guard. His license may be a different one from a CCW.

http://www.freep.com/article/20091230/NEWS01/91230026/1318/Detroit-man-arraigned-in-fatal-shooting-of-intruder

SNIP

Croff was arraigned by video wearing a security guard’s uniform, a blue shirt with black epaulets and black tie with patches on each arm from the apparent security company.


The magistrate, Steve Lockhart, gave Croff a $40,000 cash bond. Though the homicide charge would normally carry no bond, Lockhart said he would “take note of both an arguable defense claim … or an imperfect self-defense claim.”


Lockhart added the defense also could make a heat of passion argument.

SNIP

I don't know MI law for security guard permits. Also, the articles are not clear if he has a carry permit, or merely a permit to have a gun. Is such a permit needed in MI to have a gun?

[safeinOhio]

40. As I recall there is a different license for

licensed private investigators and retired law enforcement. If guard is licensed thru his employer, that'd make them responsible for neglect or crime.