So, what does the Guns forum have to do with Harry J. Anslinger?

[friendly_iconoclast]

Both have/had "Gore Files", for one. Just change "marijuana" to "guns", and recent posts look all too familiar. After all,
did not one DUer claim that "guns cloud thought"?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger

Harry Jacob Anslinger (May 20, 1892 – November 14, 1975) held office as the Assistant Prohibition Commissioner in the Bureau of Prohibition, before being appointed as the first Commissioner of the Treasury Department's Federal Bureau of Narcotics (FBN) on August 12, 1930....

....By using the mass media as his forum (receiving much support from William Randolph Hearst), Anslinger propelled the anti-marijuana sentiment from the state level to a national movement. Writing for The American Magazine, the best examples were contained in his "Gore File", a collection of quotes from police reports, by later opponents described as police-blotter-type narratives of heinous cases, most with no substantiation, linking graphically depicted offenses with the drug:

"An entire family was murdered by a youthful addict in Florida. When officers arrived at the home, they found the youth staggering about in a human slaughterhouse. With an axe he had killed his father, mother, two brothers, and a sister. He seemed to be in a daze… He had no recollection of having committed the multiple crime. The officers knew him ordinarily as a sane, rather quiet young man; now he was pitifully crazed. They sought the reason. The boy said that he had been in the habit of smoking something which youthful friends called “muggles,” a childish name for marijuana."...

http://www.reefermadnesslondon.com/history.html

http://reefermadnessmuseum.org/chap10/Why-the-Gore-File.htm

10.2.1 - WHAT WAS ANSLINGER'S GORE FILE
It has now been well documented that starting in 1932 the Federal Government took part in (as well as helped orchestrate) a mass hysteria campaign against the Medical Marihuana plant. Calling it "The Assassin of Youth," and claiming that its use was turning normally sane young men into hideous criminal beasts, sex fiends; the worst kind of cold blooded murderers etc.

As part of that campaign, Harry J. Anslinger (our nations' first Drug Czar) ordered his DEA (than known as The Bureau of Narcotics) field agents to start the computation of what has now become known as "The Gore File." Case after case, example after example, of the most hideous and depraved criminal and sex acts imaginable. ALL allegedly committed, while under the evil influence of Medical Marihuana:
A man under the influence of the drug attempted to shoot his wife but killed her grandmother instead and then committed suicide." ...

[sharesunited]

1. The counter file would be the depiction of guns as wholesome articles of salvation from evil.

In other words, the promotion of gun love and ammo amore.

[friendly_iconoclast]

4. Guns are merely tools, to be used for good or evil. They do not "cloud thought".

They are machines, not the Rings of Sauron.

[sharesunited]

5. If they don't cloud thought, then why are they causing such poor choices?

[Katya Mullethov]

6. There is only one plausible explanation

It's magic .

[sharesunited]

9. Nonsense. It is the mistaken belief that guns can avenge, rectify, and help escape problems.

That is very intoxicating to troubled minds.

And all minds are troubled at one time or another.

[Katya Mullethov]

38. Damn you got there

THat's how it usually works out around here . They're good for doing the dishes and changing the channel on the TV too

[Katya Mullethov]

40. You got -me-

In the literal , clutching my chest and spinning on an axis formed by my right shoulder and left ankle , sort of way .

[GreenStormCloud]

41. Guns do solve some problems.

If a mugger attacks me, my guns definately gives me a solution to that particular problem.

Many other problems, they don't do anything for. Different tools for different jobs.

[slackmaster]

44. Another year, another string of ridiculous insight-free projection posts by sharesunited

:nuke:

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. They "cause" poor choices the way forks and spoons "cause" obesity

To suggest otherwise is animism.

[sharesunited]

11. With the important difference, you must concede...

that those who suffer the dire consequences extend beyond the shooter.

Force feeding assailants pale in comparison as a menace to society.

[friendly_iconoclast]

12. Obesity and its sequelae kill far more people than guns do in the US

The health consequences cost tens of billions of dollars a year. I don't see many people trying to limit purchases of cutlery, or denouncing assault flatware.

It's behavior that is the problem in both cases.

[sharesunited]

14. Behavior enabled by the means to harm others.

Look, if misuse of guns were limited to suicide, that spoon thing might be an apt analogy.

[Katya Mullethov]

16. If you want to kill yorself

You just gotta have a gun

[AtheistCrusader]

17. What is that?

Some sort of rudimentary firearm for suicide or something?

[Katya Mullethov]

22. They said he couldnt buy a gun

He showed them didnt he ?

[X_Digger]

8. Your question assumes the premise..

'they are causing such poor choices'..

Your premises assumes the very causality that the previous poster was questioning.

Seriously? Please provide something besides a one line response, filled with your logic (I won't even ask for evidence, I know that's too much) for how guns 'cloud thought'..

[sharesunited]

13. Skewed logic due to the availability of guns and ammo takes many forms.

Avenging a wrong is a typical example:

Those people where I used to work were so unfair to me.

Yes? And? And WHAT, despairing ex-employee?

[X_Digger]

15. I asked for logic and got a dog's breakfast..

C'mon, surely you can do better than that.

[sharesunited]

18. It's not that complicated.

Here's another one:

Desperate individual needs cash to buy something he thinks he really really needs.

What if I could just make that man filling that ATM give me some of that money.

How can I persuade him to help me?

[X_Digger]

19. Mutiple ways..

Disparity of force: get two of my buddies to go with me and corner him
Disparity of size/age/sex: Big guy corners smaller person
Use a tool-knife
Use a tool-truncheon/club
Use a tool-gun

According to the DOJ's BJS, 75% of the crimes of rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and murder are _not_ committed by a person with a firearm.

http://ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf

Seriously, though, you've yet to explain how you think that guns 'cloud thought'.

[sharesunited]

20. Another one.

His wife is divorcing him and moving away.

He will never see his kids again.

If he steals the kids, they will just find him and take his kids away and put him in jail.

How can he steal his kids permanently?

Quickly, conveniently, and permanently.

Don't ask me to justify how the desperate mind works. All I can do is point to empirical examples in which the availability of the gun makes a manifestly wrong choice appear sensible to the offender.

The clouding of thought by a perfectly effective and realistic alternative which, if not available, would have forced other alternatives to be considered. Probably better ones.

[rrneck]

21. Please

"...empirical examples in which the availability of the gun makes a manifestly wrong choice appear sensible to the offender..."

Explain the connection. Define the relationship of the object to the mental activity of the individual holding it. So far all you have written is fiction. And not very good fiction at that.

You keep dodging the question because you know where it leads.

[sharesunited]

23. The relationship of mind to object is one of convenience and efficacy.

I can immediately get something resembling my desired result by using this powerful device which is easy to obtain and use. (Thanks Second Amendment!)

Or I can try to figure out some other way. Much more difficult. Success far less guaranteed.

Or I can just give up any hope of imposing my will on the world. Wholly unacceptable.

[rrneck]

24. You are describing a tool.

How does the tool cause particular thoughts to enter people's minds?

[sharesunited]

26. Availability of the tool causes the mind to choose it if it seems to suit the purpose.

Conversely, lack of availability forces the mind to rule it out.

The clouding results from the compelling factors of convenience and efficacy.

Since guns are convenient and effective, their availability is a hazard.

[rrneck]

27. What is the relationship of the purpose to the tool?

How does the tool define the purpose?

[sharesunited]

28. The purpose simplified is relief.

Relief from despair, anxiety, rage, privation.

The tool simplified is ending power.

Relief is spelled B A N G.

[rrneck]

29. You just described

the response of an individual under assault from a criminal and defending themselves with a firearm.

[sharesunited]

30. Is that worth all the instances of the gun initiating the assault?

You say yes.

It's not factual, just your personal opinion.

[rrneck]

31. First,

prove the gun initiated any assault

then

show me some numbers to support your assertion.

[sharesunited]

32. I long ago dispensed with the distinction between the assailant and the gun.

The only distinction which should matter is, was it a gun which enabled, empowered, and emboldened the initiating aggression?

Virginia Tech massacre killed 32 and wounded more. Now, there is a number associated with a single incident.

So, was it worth it to have guns made available to the killer? A greater good which outweighs the dead and wounded?

Make your own case. The only thing I can see is that gun love is blind.

[rrneck]

33. You can run but you can't hide.

I long ago dispensed with the distinction between the assailant and the gun.

That's painfully obvious.

The only distinction which should matter is, was it a gun which enabled, empowered, and emboldened the initiating aggression?

Yes, where's your proof that it was?

A greater good which outweighs the dead and wounded?

You're the utilitarian. Prove your solution will help more people.

Oh, and here's a number right back atcha - 42.

[sharesunited]

34. What is the significance of that number?

[rrneck]

35. See...

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Lunkwill: Do you...
Deep Thought: Have an answer for you? Yes. But you're not going to like it.
Fook: Please tell us. We must know!
Deep Thought: Okay. The answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything is...

Deep Thought: 42.

[sharesunited]

36. OK it sounds like the dead and wounded are irrelevant and don't matter.

That's certainly a philosophical point of view.

It does seem to flow from the exaltation of convenient and effective administration of death capriciously or at random, however. I.e., gun love.

As public policy, that has little to recommend it.

[rrneck]

45. They will

when you offer a meaningful solution to violence and a better way for people to defend themselves than they have now.

Here's a hint: Self aggrandizing sanctimony ain't it.

[GreenStormCloud]

43. Relief from fear of sudden death by violent attack by a felon.

Often relief consists of merely showing the gun to the felon. We call that the "presentation". By presenting the gun, we mean drawing it and aiming it at the felon. Usually, in fact almost always, the felon decideds that continuing the attack is not in his best interests, suddenly remembers he has an urgent appointment anywhere else, and leaves with amazing haste. No shots fired, nobody hurt, felon has opportunty and incentive to reevalute his career choice, happy ending. Felon may need change of underwear, but many of them are so filthy that he probably already needed that.

[X_Digger]

39. You still haven't provided something approaching logic..

That's okay, though, went right where I expected. No logic involved, just positing hyperbole.

Question for you though- there are roughly 300m guns in 80m hands in the US. How is it that there are only 400k violent crimes, and only 25-35% of them utilizing a gun?

If your "logic" (I'm being generous here) held true, then there would be more violent crime, no?

[taurus145]

37. My guns cloud thought

I grind of bit with my Dremel and snort them.

(Just thought I'd beat shares to the punch.)

[GreenStormCloud]

42. That is why I am always armed when at an ATM.

But I am always armed when I leave the house, so that isn't any different.

[rrneck]

2. Nice post.

If people don't know how something works, they won't know what it can do. Then they can only go on the symbol of the thing put forward some sheister.

Emotional responses are fine, but they have to be attached to reality or they are worthless to anyone but crooks and liars.

[Katya Mullethov]

3. What is toxic murderous insanity ?

Thank you ,

I'll take famous axe murderers overtaken by mysterious forces for 500 please .

[OffWithTheirHeads]

10. ood God! Does no one have a rational thought left in their brain?

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Marijuana does not kill people, people kill people. Although any excuse might seem reasonable, the fact remains that the only people who kill people are people.

[SteveM]

25. Someone advocating the prohibition of one thing will usually be found...

...advocating the prohibition of other things.

[benEzra]

46. The common denominator is fear.

[Katya Mullethov]

47. And hyperbolic horseshit

It's kind of funny how this one is making the pop-up generator show a bunch of drug rehab links though .