Buzz and bullets: Gun fans cheer Starbucks' policy

[friendly_iconoclast]

Source: Associated Press

Buzz and bullets: Gun fans cheer Starbucks' policy

By GREG BLUESTEIN (AP) – 7 hours ago


Dale Welch recently walked into a Starbucks in Virginia, handgun strapped to his waist, and ordered a banana Frappuccino with a cinnamon bun. He says the firearm drew a double-take from at least one customer, but not a peep from the baristas.

Welch's foray into the coffeehouse was part of an effort by some gun owners to exercise and advertise their rights in states that allow people to openly carry firearms.

Even in some "open carry" states, businesses are allowed to ban guns in their stores. And some have, creating political confrontations with gun owners. But Starbucks, the largest chain targeted, has refused to take the bait, saying in a statement this month that it follows state and local laws and has its own safety measures in its stores.

"Starbucks is a special target because it's from the hippie West Coast, and a lot of dedicated consumers who pay $4 for coffee have expectations that Starbucks would ban guns. And here they aren't," said John Bruce, a political science professor at the University of Mississippi who is an expert in gun policy....


Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gqiPHeGLQgZF586jcuVwYpdOuwJQD9E5BPRG0

[Tim01 2.0]

1. Starbucks is just following the law for now. nt

[DissedByBush]

80. So Starbucks is making a choice

By posting a notice, businesses can state that concealed or open carry is not allowed on the premises, and carriers must comply.

[kestrel91316]

2. Does anyone know if CA is an "open carry" state? I have never had reason

to find out or pay attention, but if it is, it would be good to know.

[Redneck Socialist]

4. I believe you can carry openly if the gun is unloaded.

Someone more knowledgeable than I about CA gun laws will be sure to chime in shortly.

[kestrel91316]

12. It's probably not legal in city limits. I have never seen anybody other than cops carrying.

[Pavulon]

13. Its confusing enough, I would just hand cash to a lawyer and buy the CCW

write off the contribution as a gift or whatever the best way is to handle a legal bribe.

[PavePusher]

94. The laws in California are a little odd.

One may carry openly, without a permit, as long as the firearm is unloaded. You can carry loaded magazines (for semi-autos) or speed loaders/moon clips (for revolvers) as long as they are not attached to the firearm. i.e., they may be worn on the opposite hip. Legal in both incorperated and unincorperated areas.

One may openly carry a loaded firearm without a permit in unicorperated areas.

Concealment (edit: and/or loaded carry) of any kind requires a permit issued by the Sherrifs office, and is "may issue". This means that in many areas of Cali, you don't get a permit unless you give appropriate legal bribes, or are of high enough standing politically or socially.

You can get more info here: http://www.calguns.net/ or here: http://www.handgunlaw.us/


Permission to exercise Civil Rights should never be left to the authority of a political figurehead.

[paulsby]

100. that;s not really a good metric

very very few people carry in WA state openly, but it's entirely legal. many people could go years if not their whole life w.o seeing somebody open carrying (although Open Carry WA is working to change public perception).

CA open carry IS legal, but the gun must be unloaded. which is REALLY weird.

[Pavulon]

6. Yep, unless you contribute enough to your local sheriffs reelection

campaign. since it is may issue that "may" is generally influenced by your race , political connections, and disposable income. Similar rules apply in other cities like NYC and Chicago when acquiring these permits.

So you can only OC rather than carry concealed, bribe money (ehhm contributions) not withstanding.

[Pavulon]

3. I believe virginia has CCW. I like the ccw standard

as the card basically states you have a clean criminal record and most police officers recognize this when handed one. The class while not necessary for everyone is a nice standard. Everyone has heard the rules and has fired a weapon to get to carry. At least here in nc. CCW is the preferred method of carry, if I have a choice. At least for me. It's not a political statement, i do that by voting for people who support rkba.

As a person who carries frequently I am a bit baffled by OC unless you live somewhere where CCW is not an option. To each his own I guess.

[PavePusher]

93. One should not have to beg permission from the State...

to exercise a Civil Right.

Period.

[Statistical]

214. I have a CCW but still open carry sometimes.

If I need to ask the King for permission to speak am I a freeman with rights?
If I need the state permission to carry a weapon is it really a right?

Anyways when I OC 99% of the time nobody notices. People tend not to stare at other people's waists.

For some reason cashiers often see it and the #1 question is "are you a cop?". Of course my answer is the smart ass kind "No I am a citizen". If they don't ask further questions I do say anything further. Sometimes they will open up. Most people are surpised to know that in VA they have the right to actually exercise their right. Crazy I know.

[X_Digger]

5. Banana Frappuccino?!?

Man, I don't understand all these weird coffee fetishists. Do they really NEED such strong drinks?

Black should be enough for regular citizens. Maybe milk with a permit.



:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

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[cowman]

8. Here we go

I am not all those things you just said, what I am is a law abiding citizen who happens to exercise my 2nd amend right to keep and bear arms. If you have a problem with that, well, that's just too bad.

[Skittles]

10. I believe in free speech

doesn't mean I go on chronic rants in public

[Pavulon]

11. But you can. Nothing stopping you. No harm in a rant

no harm in an old man carrying a sidearm. I support you right to rant.

[cowman]

15. I believe

in the 2nd amend,. doesn't mean I go on shooting sprees in public

[Skittles]

18. I must be out of the loop

I wasn't aware the 2nd Amendment allowed shooting sprees in public

[cowman]

21. never said

it was legal to go on a shooting spree in public, I was doing a parody of your statement. Like I said I believe in the 2nd amend and just because I carry a gun doesn't mean I am going to pull it and start blasting away

[Name removed]

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[beevul]

55. Correction.

"Though the 1st doesn't allow screaming 'fire' in a crowded theatre."

Yes it does.

It allows it with a penalty when theres no fire, and it allows it without a pentlay when there IS a fire.

[paulsby]

101. the schenck canard

i get so tired of it.

schenck was superseded by brandenberg and the "false fire crowded theatre" thing was used as justification to prosecute a WAR PROTESTER

[beevul]

52. Doesn't mean you wear a gag in public either.

Or that you'd suggest others do.

[Callisto32]

115. But you COULD.

That is the point.

[Pavulon]

9. Zombies. Who tha fuck cares if a 71 year old man OC's

he is not going to steal your car or rape your sister. By that measure anyone wearing a watch costing more than $35 is flaunting something. CCW is easier because the attention of mouth breathing troglodytes is not drawn by a sidearm.

[Name removed]

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[Tejas]

32. WTH is a "penae"?

huh?

[Name removed]

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[Tejas]

39. Feel free to explain, many would love to

hear your educated response.

[Skittles]

42. the educated do not need an explanation

it's my own word

[Katya Mullethov]

128. Like Vergatario

Hugo made that one up . Something to do with peckers .

[SteveM]

138. Man, I wish I would have told that to my English profs: "it's my own word."

[salguine]

51. If I may, Skittles, I believe it's "penii".

[Euromutt]

83. Assuming you're talking about the plural of "penis," it's "penes"

Three years of secondary school Latin, and what's it good for?

[Skittles]

106. as I said, it's my own word

"beautimous" is another :)

[SteveM]

139. Is that related to No. 9 coal?

[PavePusher]

95. ooooo, did I miss the dick joke? n/t

[Name removed]

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[beevul]

57. Of course, that conveniently ignores those who do so to make a political statement.

That you don't agree with the statement, or with them making it, is no reflection on the size of their genitalia, any more than it is a reflection on the size of yours.

[proteus_lives]

63. It's hard to interrupt the smugness isn't?

[friendly_iconoclast]

61. I never knew there were so many Freudians on DU

Learn something new everyday, I does...

[MichaelHarris]

75. The one thing no one ever mentions

How many public shootings have been stopped by a person with a concealed weapon? Truth is, those who carry are afraid by nature, why else carry a pistol when you take a leak? Those of us who choose to walk the streets unarmed are expected to think that men and women who are so fearful they feel the need to arm themselves will protect us? You would be hard-pressed to find CCW holder who has stopped any public crime. The fear that makes them arm themselves will probably keep them from defending themselves or the people around them.

[friendly_iconoclast]

79. No, you're supposed to think that they have a chance to protect themselves

They're not there as auxiliary police. *If* they happen to stop a crime involving someone else, it's only a side benefit.

[Hoopla Phil]

90. Here's one.

http://www.ohioccw.org/200805303991/nevada-ccw-holder-stops-mass-shooting.html

Not sure if those stats are kept though.

[paulsby]

103. it;'s generally difficult to statistically determine a PREVENTED

shooting.

it's like saying how many car accidents are prevented by defensive driving.

or how many lives have i saved by responding lights and siren (vs. taking my own sweet time) in emergent situations

[Hoopla Phil]

91. Here's another

http://tr966.newsvine.com/_news/2009/07/21/3043998-armed-citizen-stops-mass-shooting

[Euromutt]

109. What do you mean "no one ever mentions"?

That question is brought up constantly, and the answers have been trotted out just as often.
Examples include:

- Smith County courthouse, Tyler, TX, 02/24/2005: hearing shots outside the courthouse, CHL-holder Mark Wilson left his apartment across the street and engaged the shooter, David Hernandez Arroyo; unfortunately, Arroyo was wearing body armor which Wilson's .45 ACPs failed to penetrate. Wilson was then killed by Arroyo's return fire. (http://www.kltv.com/global/story.asp?s=2994393)
- Tacoma Mall shooting, Tacoma, WA, 11/20/2005: Brendan McKown attempted to locate and engage the shooter, Dominick Maldonado. Not seeing the shooter, McKown put his pistol away, just before Maldonado came into view and spotted him. Before McKown could draw again, Maldonado shot him five times. (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002975859_mallshooting06m.html)
- Players Bar & Grill, Winnemucca, NV, 05/25/2008: a 48 year-old permit holder from Reno shot and killed Ernesto Villagomez, after the latter opened fire in the bar, killing two people and wounding two more.(http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/19251374.html)

Now, I'll readily concede that Wilson and McKown failed to halt the shooting, but you can't deny they tried.
We might also add:
- Pearl High School, Pearl, MS, 10/01/1997: vice-principal Joel Myrick retrieves a 1911 from his truck and uses it to subdue Luke Woodham while the latter tries to drive away from the school, reportedly to continue his killing spree at a nearby middle school.
Admittedly, Myrick did not have a CCW permit, Mississippi not yet having passed a "shall issue" law.
- Appalachian School of Law, Grundy, VA, 01/16/2002; two students, Tracy Bridges and Mikael Gross, retrieved handguns from their vehicles and attempted to locate and engage a campus shooter.
Bridges and Gross weren't permit holders either; they were law enforcement officers. But they were well outside their jurisdictions (both in North Carolina) and the weapons they grabbed were privately owned.

And frankly, the constant accusations that CCW live in perpetual fear had worn pretty thin; adding the accusation that we're too cowardly to do anything if we did find ourselves in an "active shooter" situation is even more reprehensible. There's no evidence to support your assertion, and I can't see what purpose is serves except to be gratuitously insulting and inflammatory. I guess it's all you've got to bring to the argument.

[Callisto32]

117. Take your bait elsewhere.

[cowman]

129. Ah yes

there goes MH analyzing people whom he has never met. That is very arrogant of you

[Tejas]

46. Yes, sure, uh huh, of course, and you don't lock your doors at night either

[proteus_lives]

65. Yeah, political protest is dumb.

:eyes:

[Aristus]

14. Overheard in a Mississippi Starbuck's: "I told ya, I wanted decaf skinny dangit!" BLAM!

That'll teach THAT barista... :eyes:

I always figured if someone needed a gun in order to make a coffee pit stop, it was because they lived in Somalia. Which, in a way, I suppose we do. Bleak economic prospects and guns everywhere...

[cowman]

16. And yet

the national crime rate is dropping

[Name removed]

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[cowman]

22. Well just

to set the record straight I rarely open carry, I have a CCW and anytime I am away from my home I am armed except when I am at work as my employer, City of Las Vegas takes a dim view of that. I am not paranoid as most of the anti 2nd amend crowd would have us believe, I am just prepared to defend myself if some dumbass criminal left absolutly no other choice. You may not agree with that and that is your right as it is my right to keep and bear arms for defense. I you think that is paranoia, well, that's your problem not mine

[FailureToCommunicate]

26. See reply #23 below. (BTW what are you afraid of by hiding your profile?)

[cowman]

30. Not afraid of

anything much less you and that is none of your fucking business

[Aristus]

135. Meanwhile, while you wait and wait for that hoped-for criminal whose head you can't wait

to blow off, 5 year-olds across the country are blowing theirs off because of easy access to way too many guns. If a trail of completed suicides and dead, overly-curious toddlers are not too high a price to pay for freedom, perhaps we need to re-assess what that freedom is truly worth. You say you're not suspicious and paranoid, and that my perception of you is my problem, not yours. I disagree. I think you're living in fear, which is no way for an American to live. I celebrate my freedom by carrying books around everywhere. Now, books may not be your cup of tea, but you can't load them, shoot them and use them to take out a playground full of kindergartners.

There are gun enthusiasts who make the argument that it is their guns that protect my right to freedom of the press. I disagree with that, too. It is national military force and law enforcement that do that, not some jittery, itchy trigger-finger survivalist.

I'm not armed.

I refuse to live in fear.

I am an American.

[cowman]

136. You are assuming

something you know absolutly nothing about. I never ever want to have to take another human life again, but if I am ever placed in that position because some asshole of a criminal leaves me absolutly no choice I will because I love life. I do not live in fear and thats pretty arrogant and elitist of you to judge me when you dont even know me. I could give a rats ass about how you feel about guns, you have the right to choose not to own or carry, I choose the right to own and carry and the state of NV and the Fed. Govt. agrees with me. Thats what America is about, freedom of choice. I think your just pissed off because your side has been losing the RKBA debate and all you know how to do is lash out with insults. Pick up your marbles and go home

[cowman]

137. And I

dont give a rats ass if you think I live in fear. Like I said, thats your problem not mine

[SteveM]

143. Another budding Freud, here?...

"I think you're living in fear, which is no way for an American to live."

Actually, what you think does not carry the day; in fact, since you (and others within the gun-control/prohibitionist camp) use the "fear" argument first, it is most likely that YOU suffer from whatever maladies you associate with the term. I am sure you have only a tangential knowledge of what "fear" and "paranoia" mean, but that is not necessary from your standpoint: you use the terms like a bludgeon and pejorative, however ineffectively. Your aim is to smear and degrade those with whom you disagree, and feel good about it; that is all the gun-prohibitionist has left.

Tell me something, and try not to get expunged while explaining: Do you fear people with guns; concealed-carry, open-carry or whatever? If so, are you "living in fear" of them? If not, then what is your concern?

We agree on one thing. We are both Americans.

[GreenStormCloud]

148. All freedoms come at a price. The world isn't made of Nerf.

If you are truly concerned about the accidental death rate for children, there are things that are killing far more kids than guns. Among children: motor vehicles (41%), suffocation (21%), drowning (15%), fires (8%), pedal cycles (2%), poisoning (2%), falls (1.9%), environmental factors (1.5%), firearms (1.1%) and medical mistakes (1%). Statistics are from National Center for Health Statistics.
Children die from firearms accidents at a rate of about one per week. While regretable, that is less than the rate for playground accidents. The odds are more than a million to one, annually, of a child dying from a firearms accident. Note: I use child to mean a pre-puberty person. The VPC gets a different figure by calling anyone under 21 a child.

If a person is going to commit suicide they will do that anyway, even if guns could be uninvented. Cleopatra didn't need a gun to make her exit. There are several countries with near total gun bans that have suicide rates higher than the U.S.

What you call living in fear, I call a reasonable precaution, similar to locking the door to you house, or looking out the peephole first before answering the door. Violent crime is a reality, with will over a million incidents per year of violent felonies being committed annually in the U.S. Putting my guns on when I leave the house is similar to putting my wallet in my pocket. It isn't an all comsuming act.

I carry books around too. We order several every month from Amazon. Books and guns are not mutually exclusive. My advantage is that if I am criminally attacked, I can do more than throw a book at my assailant.

My wife, a few years ago, used her gun to save herself from being murdered.

I am armed. I refuse to live in denial. I am an American.

[cowman]

151. I

couldn't have said it any better. Amazing how the gun grabbers on this site think they can analyze us without even knowing us. Keep up the good posts

[PavePusher]

155. How many people...

have to help you swing that broad brush you're painting with?

[Katya Mullethov]

203. I give that post 8 outta 10 just for the hyperbolic projectile spoogery

Dont be tracking it all over your carpet now .

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Tejas]

50. "Go to an emergency room" - maybe you should

so you could see what's left of the 2 crackheads that attempted a home invasion a few blocks from here. But then again it's probably just fine with you that the public be disarmed so the criminals have easier prey. If so, I beleive you would be much happier in say...Somalia?



"with their constant whine and moan about their phallic symbols about to be taken away"

And in your infinite wisdom that translates how for female firearms owners?

[cowman]

56. I know

exactly what you mean. I have treated many an innocent victim because of criminals using guns. I even had one man tell me as I was treating him for a GSW that he would never carry a gun for self defense, I felt like telling him he is a fool but that probably would have gotten me a verbal warning.

[PavePusher]

96. There is, litterally a world of difference between the two cultures.

There's a lot more to it than just the guns.

But you knew that, didn't you?

Sorry for interrupting your baseless hysteria, please, carry on....

[Callisto32]

119. Violence is not a function of the weapons available so much as one of culture.

Some heavily armed populations have little violence, and some that have large amounts.

Since both are heavily armed, I am forced to conclude that there is some other factor leading to the discrepancy in violence levels.

I will concede that readily available, efficient weapons make it easier for violent people to ply their sick trade, but if you have a violent culture, you have bigger problems and trying to address it on the level of the availability of weapons is ridiculous.

[Euromutt]

132. Thus, at worst, armed private citizens don't worsen the situation

In the past twenty years, more and more states have adopted "shall issue" laws, removing from the executive branch of government the "discretion" to arbitrarily refuse to issue permits, e.g. to women, ethnic minorities, recent immigrants, anyone who hasn't given a handsome contribution to the sheriff's or mayor's campaign fund, etc. and as a result, there are more CCW permit holders out there in both absolute and relative terms. During the same period, violent crime (including that committed with firearms) has dropped to around half of what it was in 1991, and remained roughly at that level for almost a decade. The increasing popularity of open carry hasn't affected the violent crime rate either.

So while the open carrying of firearms may be neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for the maintenance or improvement of public order, neither does it seem to be a sufficient condition to reduce a functioning society into a failed state like Somalia. Which was rather what you appeared to be implying in your post #14.

And your carping about people carrying while getting a coffee, or "even to take a dump," seems to suffer from not being fully thought through. If we take it as a given for a moment that a person may have legitimate reason to carry a firearm as he goes about his daily routine, are you suggesting that it would be preferable if that person left the firearm unattended while he stopped to get a latte or went to the lavatory? From my perspective, once a firearm is taken out in public, the carrier assumes the responsibility to not let it fall into unauthorized hands, and the best way to achieve that is to keep it on your person.

Besides, it's not as if there haven't been a few instances of shootings occurring in Starbucks by armed robbers, and in one case (in Atlanta/Fulton County two years ago) in an apparent assassination attempt on a former public prosecutor.

[Name removed]

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[cowman]

24. Cave?

wow I didn't know I lived in a cave, thanks for enlighting me as to where I live. Like or not your anti-2nd amend crowd are losing big time. Now go cry a river somewhere for your loses

[FailureToCommunicate]

27. Gosh, snappy comeback. You should get a participation ribbon!

[Name removed]

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[FailureToCommunicate]

31. It's actually used a lot around here. You need to pay more attention. But I can tell

from the anger in your other posts that we will get nowhere with our little dance tonight, so I'm signing off.

You say you're a EMT/Firefighter so...

stay safe out there.

[cowman]

34. I appreciate it

I'm getting ready to retire in Sept. but I'll still volunteer with the local Fire Dept just to keep my Paramedic License active. I've actually been in the fire service for 35 years, 5 with the NV. Test Site and 30 with LVFR. 35 years or active service is enough. You stay safe also, and sorry for getting testy with you

[FailureToCommunicate]

130. Ditto. 10-34

[Name removed]

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[beevul]

60. In spite of record gun sales...

In spite of record gun sales, gun deaths have not risen in number?

Interesting.

[friendly_iconoclast]

62. Thank you for the obligatory "Blood in the booths" post.

To be filed along with:

"Blood in the streets" and the new one:

"Blood in the aspens"

[proteus_lives]

66. Igorant.....

[PavePusher]

102. Spell-Check, man...... 8>)

[paulsby]

104. ah, the need canard

nice

[Callisto32]

118. We live in Somalia?

Lies. All lies.

[SteveM]

140. Hell, you don't say that crap to the Barista in the shop where I go...

He has a t-shirt which reads: "I don't phone 9-l-l," accompanied by a full-frontal illustration of a big revolver.

Maybe that's why you really don't "overhear" your story.

[TheCowsCameHome]

20. Now that's a real wild-west kind of drink.

Jesse James would've loved to hear that being ordered.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[DallasNE]

37. A Couple of Months Ago

Two people in a local bar got into an argument. One person showed he had a gun in an intimidation attempt and the other one pulled out his gun and shot and killed the first person. I haven't followed the story so I don't know the outcome but this is oh so predictable. I'm sure the plea is self-defense.

[cowman]

43. If the

one guy showed his gun for itimidation then the other guy, and I don't know TX. law, should be able to claim self defense. Maybe OneShooter knows as he lives in TX.

[oneshooter]

122. If they were in a bar, or a 51% establishment

Then both of them were breaking Texas law. If both had CHL's then both were guilty. The first for Brandishing and the second for murder, both would be guilty of carrying a firearm in a restricted area, a bar or 51% area.

In Texas a 51% sign is required at the door of an establishment that makes 51% or more of its sales in alcohol.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[SteveM]

146. If the outcome is "oh so predictable," then you must have several links?

[tammywammy]

40. I love banana and banana flavored stuff, but the idea of a banana frappuccino

made me vomit a little in my mouth.

:puke:

Unless it's that cream frappuccino stuff, then actually that sounds tasty, but banana coffee just sounds disgusting. I haven't been in a Starbucks in years if you can't tell. :)

[cowman]

47. I myself

prefer a strong cup of firehouse coffee, That will kick start your heart

[one-eyed fat man]

127. nah............

Army coffee, that stuff in the 40 cup West Bend in the Orderly Room after CQ all night. That stuff will float the end connector from tank track!

[Euromutt]

111. I don't think there actually is a banana frappucino

It's not on the menu on the Starbucks website, anyway. Maybe it's a frappucino with a shot of banana-flavored syrup added, but if so, it would be the customer's own order. Or maybe the reporter just made it up.

[kurtzapril4]

44. Oh Yay.

Yet another public place where i can be confronted by asshats with firearms.

I feel so much safer now.

What safety measures does Starbucks have to protect those of us who don't carry firearms? Are the baristas trained to throw hot coffee into the face of the gun-toter?

Didn't some law abiding citizen with a handgun kill a couple of kids the other day?

The "law abiding" gun owners are all law-abiding...until they're not. Until they snap, which they seem to do a lot. Which leaves all the rest of us at a big disadvantage.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[cowman]

49. 100% agree

[scottsoperson]

54. saddam allowed the general public

to have ak47s.

[friendly_iconoclast]

76. It's called 'freedom'. Adjust.

You seem to have confused the legal with the illegal. You keep and use a computer w/ Internet connection, but you
might (not saying you would, mind) do something illegal with it.

Can you guarantee you won't snap and start trafficking in child pornography or stolen credit card numbers?

No, you can't.

Well then, why should we trust you?

Nothing was stopping criminals from carrying guns illegally into a Starbucks before this issue arose

What do you think would have worked?

I'm curious. A strongly worded (yet nicely typefaced) sign?

Offers of free venti decafs to the agitated looking?

[PavePusher]

97. You paint with a very broad brush.

And how do you define "a lot" in terms of "snapping"?

[Euromutt]

112. Nobody ever "just snaps"

Suggested reading: The Gift of fear by Gavin de Becker. The whole idea that people "just snap" and become homicidal (or suicidal) without any warning is a myth. There are always warning signs, but we don't know how to recognize them for what they are, or we're conditioned to ignore them, or we're too embarrassed afterward to admit we saw something coming but didn't do anything until it was too late.

The bulk of homicide is committed by people who already have a prior history of criminal (usually violent) behavior; very few people go from being model citizens directly to committing unlawful aggravated assault or homicide with a firearm.

There have been a few shooting incidents in Starbucks stores, but none of them was a case of a CCW permit holder "snapping."
There was the triple murder at a Starbucks in D.C. in July 1997, which was a botched robbery; at the time, it was practically impossible to legally own a handgun in D.C., let alone carry it.
In April 2008, a candidate for the House of Representatives was shot in a robbery of a Starbucks in Indianapolis.
In July 2008, two men were shot in a Starbucks in western Atlanta, GA, in what appears to have been a targeted hit on one, a former Atlanta city attorney.
In May 2009, there was shooting at a Starbucks in Salinas, CA. Motive unknown, but the Monterey County Sheriff's Dept. is notoriously reticent to issue CCW permits, so it's hardly likely it was some permit holder "snapping" (especially since Salinas also has quite a bit of gang activity).

[mvccd1000]

116. Why would they "confront" you?

Will you be threatening them?
Robbing the establishment?
Endangering someone in some other way?

If not, I'd have to say that you probably will not be "confronted" by an asshat with a firearm. (Or even by a normal American with one.)

[Callisto32]

120. Funny.

I have to deal with asshats that want to limit my civil rights, my not having ever harmed anyone notwithstanding.

Pour a big glass of "cry me a river" get a straw, and suck it up.

Learn to deal.

[oneshooter]

124. Well don't worry about that happening in Illinois

Only the rich, powerful and politically connected are permitted to protect themselves there.
So you are safe.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[SteveM]

150. Have you ever been "confronted" with someone who is armed?

In a coffee house? If you "feel so much safer now," that would seem to suggest you were "living in fear" earlier. (Note: I don't really know where sarcasm begins and ends with so many gun-control posts.)

"What safety measures does Starbucks have to protect those of us who don't carry firearms?" This is an interesting and amusing question. If you are not carrying firearms now, what kind of "measures" are afforded you in stores where there is a different policy? Clearly, any thug/crim type could be carrying in those stores; but they don't follow rules, do they? You fear the law-abiding gun owner when "he snaps," but imply unconcern about the prospect of a HyperPunk or thug waltzing into a "gun-free zone" and shooting you and other folks at will; in short, you are already at a "big disadvantage." Then again, perhaps you don't really fear HyperPunks and thugs.

Please provide links to support "until they snap, which they seem to do a lot," explaining and comparing the crime rates of both CCW holders and the population-at-large.

Further, why should a barista "throw hot coffee into the face of the gun-toter?" Is the "gun-toter" threatening the barista (or you)?

[PavePusher]

156. "What safety measures does Starbucks have to protect those of us who don't carry firearms?"

The same measure they currently have in place to protect you from criminals... None. At. All.

The difference being that you do not need protection from the legal, non-criminally minded Citizens.

I'm sure you would have figured that out after your attack of the vapors...

[xchrom]

58. Just another reason not to darken the doorway of a StarBucks. Nt

[scottsoperson]

59. starbucks now has sort of free

wifi. why not just let it be free? freedom and democracy.

[spin]

81. I never visited a StarBucks but I will now ...

they may gain far more customers than they lose.

Note: I like strong black coffee without sugar or milk. Fancy coffee never really appealed to me. But hell, I'll give it a try just because StarBucks as the guts to stand up to the Brady Campaign.

Got to keep the good guys in business.

[paulsby]

105. i open carry almost every day

but don't go to starbucks or ANY coffee place because i can make a perfectly good cup at home.

but i have a lot of respect for starbux decision here.

[Euromutt]

110. Starbucks doesn't just do espresso-based drinks

They do do ordinary drip coffee as well.

[Callisto32]

121. I agree on the coffee part, but here is a suggestion.

Try it with cardamom, Arabian style....mmmm..mmmmm.

[spin]

134. Will do (n/t)

[onehandle]

64. Was it this guy?

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[depakid]

70. Why wouldn't people be?

It's symbolic of a failing nation.

Jut as the story in the OP is.

[proteus_lives]

73. The high, whiny voice of the ex-pat.....

With no ideas of his own.

[depakid]

85. Just telling it like it is

and there are myriad reasons why, as one can see in the papers across the nation every day.

As far as symbolism goes- this one really is a cogent. Among other things it speaks about dying with one's rights on... even if that means no (mental?) healthcare without risking bankruptcy, no effective financial or consumer regulation- and declining funding and support for public education.

[Skittles]

107. doesn't take much to please simple-minded folk

[friendly_iconoclast]

133. He symbolizes the US the way Pauline Hanson used to for Australia

Every place has nutters, and it's lazy to claim the obvious ones symbolize the entire society.

[proteus_lives]

207. Funny huh?

The bigots and stereotypers always commit the sins they claim to despise.

[scottsoperson]

71. about half of crime guns

are bought retail. and many states mentally ill people can buy firearms.

[proteus_lives]

74. Link Please.

[Hoopla Phil]

86. Care to back that statement of fact with a link proving it?

[DonP]

131. Wow!!! You may want to call the FBI right away!

You obviously have much better sources and insight than they do.

According to their report, not nearly as insightful as yours of course, very few crime guns are purchased from gun stores and only about .7% from those evil gun shows. Those simple minded fools at the FBI think that the majority are bought on the black market.

That part about the mentally ill being able to buy guns will come as news to them too. Must be some secret way around the NICS check, right?

I love it when someone so knowledgeable in the details comes down here to edumicate all of us rubes with the "real facts".

[X_Digger]

142. Umm.. try again..

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

8.3%

[scottsoperson]

69. violence is not the answer

does this guy own a plane?

[Hoopla Phil]

87. Lawful violence IS the answer to unlawful violence. I agree half way with you.

[GreenStormCloud]

180. Depending upon the question, violence may very well be the only answer. N/T

[proteus_lives]

68. Good.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoopla Phil]

82. If you support the rules of D.U. why then do so many of your posts get deleted?

Oh, you support OTHERS to follow the rules. You SUPPORT them and their intent but do not necessarily FOLLOW them. I get it.

[2Design]

84. guess it is time people stop going to starbucks if they don't want to be shot n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

88. Or if they just wish to take out their 2A rights and exercise them for a while.

[2Design]

89. if there are no guns in the area you are visiting or living or walking - then you will not get shot

sorry I don't believe in all this legalizing guns everywhere - we are in other countries fighting terrorists or whatever they want to call them and we have the least safe country and streets - clean up our own mess first - there are too many guns in the world now

[Hoopla Phil]

92. OK, I'll play your fantasy game and we wave the magic wand and POOF. There

are no more guns. So now we end up with people being murdered with other tools. Would that make you FEEL better. The truth is that a hand gun is the most affective means of defense. Why else do you think cops carry them.

The reality is that guns exist. Nothing can stop that. It has also been PROVEN time and time again that when guns are banned then only the law abiding folks are without guns. The thoughts of "what could be" do not come to pass in the world of reality. Guns are here and will always be here. I for one understand that it is important for the law abiding to defend themselves.

[PavePusher]

99. "sorry I don't believe in all this legalizing guns everywhere"

Those Constitutional Rights... they must be quite vexing for you.

Not sure how that links to our current war, can you clear up that logic chain for me? What do our Armed Forces have to do with fighting domestic crime? (Hint: Google Posse Comitatus Act."

[Pavulon]

113. Did you know weed is illegal so is coke. Seems with minor "criminal" effort

it arrives if phone calls are made. Same with guns, the only people who do not carry into places it is illegal are those who respect the law.

[Callisto32]

123. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Zimbabwe?

Somalia?

Afghanistan?

You really think the streets in the U.S. are less safe than in these places?

[SteveM]

153. Pure theory based on a prohibitionist's dream, as in...

"If there is no marijuana in the area you are visiting or living or walking, then you will not get high."

You needn't apologize for your views, only realize that your shining city on the hill is Oz.

I agree that we should "clean up our own mess first." That starts by ending the prohibition of "illegal" drugs, in favor of alcohol-type regulation. Do you agree with this strategy?

[GreenStormCloud]

181. So getting beaten, clubed, stapped, etc., is better?

I am a senior citizen an no longer able to fight off a young man in his twenties. Getting rid of guns does NOT get rid of violence, it just makes the young and strong that much more sure of winning and makes the old and the weak that much more certain of being easy victims. I, and my wife, carry guns because we refuse to be an easy victims to violent felons.

[PavePusher]

98. Have there been a lot of shootings at Starbuck's across the nation?

Where? When??

Got facts?

[armueller2001]

186. Who needs facts when you've got

FEEEEEEELINGS!!!

All those people who are peeing their pants and are saying they are not going to go to Starbucks anymore had better not step outside their homes because there are people carrying guns EVERYWHERE! They're just concealed!

Isn't that amazing? And there aren't any shootouts over parking spaces!

[oneshooter]

125. There is no CCL or open carry in Canada, so why worry? n/t

[oneshooter]

126. Why worry, there is no CCL or open carry in Canada. n/t

[SteveM]

152. Hey, you're free to boycott. Try it. As for me, I don't use Starbucks...

I prefer a local coffee house where I live. They have excellent vegetarian food for a low price, have a good eclectic atmosphere, and don't post meaningless "gun-free zone" signs. Meaningless, except for thugs and HyperPunks looking for some cheap "juice."

[Confusious]

108. Makes me feel like I'm living in a police state

Without the police.

[SteveM]

154. I don't know. If you live in fear of a police state, only you can explain. nt

[Callisto32]

114. Oy,

What an article.

So, gun owners "parade" by going about their business armed? I suppose police are also "parading" in and out of $tarbuck$.

The HCI folks "soon had 26k signatures." I interpret this language as an attempt to raise the perceived efficacy of the action, judges use this trick all the time in their written opinions.

Hows about he said "Dressing up and marching around shouting 'We're here, we're queer, get used to it!' is a little bit juvenile."

The pro-RKBA side of the story is presented pretty much matter-of-fact-ly, by comparison.

My personal conclusion is that by giving the emotional "win" in the article the writer slants it in favor of the anti-RKBA side.

[K8-EEE]

141. And the gun sickness just gets worse and worse

God forbid you go get a cup of coffee without a loaded gun, you wouldn't be "safe!" The gun crowd paranoia is just so freaky.

[Euromutt]

147. I'm going to ask you what I asked Aristus earlier

See, I don't know about you, but I generally grab a coffee on my way somewhere from somewhere else. I don't drive out to a coffee place, get a coffee, and then come straight back home. (Admittedly, I do have the luxury of having my own espresso machine.)

If we take it as a given for a moment that a person may have legitimate reason to carry a firearm as he goes about his daily routine, are you suggesting that it would be preferable if that person left the firearm unattended somewhere while he stopped to get a latte? Or are you suggesting that he should go home (regardless of how far that may be), deposit the weapon in the safe, go get a coffee, go home again, retrieve the weapon and carry on? That's a fair amount of time and fuel to waste just to please your sensibilities, isn't it?

[cowman]

149. Ah yes

anothor anti gun rant from someone who has no clue of what they are talking about. didn't get enough last time?

[PavePusher]

157. Gosh, your precognition must work much better than mine...

Perhaps you can gain employment telling everyone when and where they are going to be most at risk of being a victim of crime.

Good luck with that.

[GreenStormCloud]

182. And the crime rate keeps dropping and dropping.

Last year there were well over one million violent assaults reported in the U.S. There were certainly many more that were not reported. Violent crime does happen, and I choose not to be an easy victim. It isn't paranoia, is is not being in denial.

I suspect that those who call us paranoid or themselves living in denial. They oppose us being armed - which does them no harm - because the idea that some are legally armed tends to burst the bubble of denial that they live in.

[Javaman]

144. Well, at least now, the old excuse of "not having his coffee" yet, will be eliminated...nt

[Javaman]

145. Won't someone think of the coffee???? nt

[ManiacJoe]

208. Frequently.

But I go to Starbucks any way.
:evilgrin:

[mainer]

158. Who's most likely to be killed by your gun ... statistics from NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/04/21/weekinreview/20070422_MARSH_GRAPHIC.html

If you're a white male over 40, you're most likely to kill yourself.

[PavePusher]

159. O.K., what's your point?

Do you believe that if all guns were to vanish, that suicides would stop or decrease?

If so, how do you explain the many places where guns are less common, but suicide rates are higher than the U.S.?

[mainer]

162. gun ownership does seem correlated to higher suicide rates

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/211982/suicide_rates_significantly_higher.html?cat=7

New research has found that suicide rates are significantly higher in states with high rates of household gun ownership. The study's results appear in the April issue of the Journal of Trauma.

Researchers from the Harvard School of Public Health examined nationwide statistics on suicide rates and gun ownership. They found that in the 15 states with the highest numbers of household gun owners, the suicide rate
was double that of the 6 states with the lowest numbers of household gun owners. Population sizes among the states were similar.

[PavePusher]

166. I was urging you to look up suicide rates in other countries.

My wording wasn't too clear, sorry about that.

Many places with severe restrictions on firearms have much higher suicide rates than the U.S. Guns are not the underlying problem.

[mainer]

168. I don't have reliable statistics outside our country

I wanted to go with a source where there's actually good data to back it up, and that would be U.S. data.

It's hard to compare across cultures. In Japan, for instance, committing suicide is almost traditional in cases of shame. If Japan were to have prevalent gun ownership, you might see an even higher spike of suicides by bullets.

[PavePusher]

169. Maybe so, but would their overall suicide rate go up?

Edit: Or would it merely change the method?

These stats are easy to find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

We're #40, well behind places with much more restrictive gun laws.

The problem is not the tool, it's the motivation. Note that tool =/= motivation, and I don't think you'll find a correlation between the two. There may be a link between tool availability and method used, but that's a whole different discussion.

[mainer]

171. It probably wouldn't change the number of suicide ATTEMPTS

but it might change the rate of completed suicides.

[PavePusher]

175. To be coldly pragmatic about this...

So what?

I firmly believe that suicide is a personal right. I also think you should be required to tidy up your personal affairs beforehand, and pick a method that does not leave a big mess or inconvenience others unneccesarily, but those would be hard to enforce.

There is much speculation that many non-completed suicide attempts are 'cries for help' or 'attention', etc. I will note that those who are determined to end themselves, and pick a method other than guns, are regularly quite successful.

Method, motivation and causation are not all strictly related.

[mainer]

190. If I don't know the people, well, okay. I understand cold pragmatism.

That's someone else's suffering.

I grew up with a mom who continually tried to kill herself. I was the one who had to get her to the E.R. (and I was only in my teens.)

Had she owned a gun, she might have been successful. I'm just glad she didn't, and is now alive and kicking all these years later.

[GreenStormCloud]

196. If she had owned a gun, she would not have used it in her suicide attempt.

She wasn't really trying to kill herself because she planned it so that you could take her to the E.R. Her attempt was really an extreme cry for help. Such attempts are not to be taken lightly. The person really needs help. But she didn't intend to die because if she had really wanted to, she could have, gun or no gun.

[mainer]

198. She did a pretty damn good job of it with the car.

Parked in the garage, turned on the engine, and went to sleep from carbon monoxide. NO one was expected to come home. Luckily I did.

I agree that there's a difference between suicidal gestures and true suicidal attempts. I've seen them all. I treated a woman who shot a flare gun into her mouth (ouch.) That was a gesture, even though it was a pretty dramatic one. I've also treated people who took massive doses of Tylenol, phenobarb, and any combination of pharmaceuticals. I'd say that the majority were just gestures.

But then there was the guy who jumped out of the psych ward, slit his own carotids with glass, bled out all over the parking lot, and managed to survive only because there were doctors on site. I don't think that was a gesture. I think that was a real attempt.

[GreenStormCloud]

210. I will agree that the car was a real attempt.

Because you said that she had made multiple attempts, I immediately concluded that they were suicide gestures.

I do not believe that hardly anyone would make a suicide gesture with a gun as they would know that it would almost certainly be sucessful.

I further maintain that if a person has truly decided on suicide, the lack of a gun will not be a setback.

If your son is not suicidal then the guns won't make him want to kill himself.

If your son is not already a violent person, having guns won't turn him into a homicidal maniac.

[Euromutt]

209. You accept that international cultural differences affect suicide rates

Why would it be inconceivable that cultural differences exist between regions of the United States? An eye-opener in this regard is Albion's Seed by David Hackett-Fischer, which charts how four successive waves of English immigration (Calvinist Puritans to New England; south-western Royalists to the Tidewater states; Quakers and Mennonites to the Delaware Valley; and people from the Scottish border regions to the hinterlands like Appalachia and the Piedmont) created four cultural streams, or "folkways" as he calls them, that persist to this day.

It strikes me as far from inconceivable that regions where the ethos/mythos of rugged, individualist self-sufficiency holds sway (notably the non-coastal western states), people are both more likely to own firearms, and to perceive setbacks as personal failure, and respond by committing suicide. That would be one explanation of a correlation being found without there being a causal relationship.

Frankly, I find it highly implausible that the Japanese would kill themselves in higher numbers if they had firearms available. What is plausible that a higher percentage of Japanese suicides would occur using firearms, but whether someone dies by firearm instead of by jumping in front of a train or gassing himself with hydrogen sulfide gas makes little difference (except that firearm suicide is less likely to cause physical or psychological harm to innocent bystanders).

To compare, consider Brazil. Brazil has no shortage of guns, and drug gangs prepared to use them, and as a result has a homicide rate that is a multiple of the American one. But despite the number of guns in circulation, the suicide rate is markedly lower than that of the U.S., which may be readily explained by the fact that Brazil is predominantly Catholic.

[X_Digger]

170. Correlation != causation..

Perhaps there are other factors that affect both factors equally, like poverty- which is also found in many high crime areas (leading to more people acquiring arms for protection) and hopelessness- which leads to a higher suicide rate.

When you imply that if one increases one factor the other will likely go up- that implies causation.

[mainer]

172. I'm not saying guns CAUSE suicides

I'm merely saying that guns increase the death rates from suicide attempts, because those attempts are more likely to be successful.

Let's say we're all hunting for rabbits. But some of us are using guns and some of us are using bows and arrows. We're all attempting the same thing, but some of us have better tools for the job.

[X_Digger]

173. Ahh, but that's not what the JT Article asserts..

.. it might be true, but it's not what they're claiming.

[mainer]

174. The journal only looks at successful suicides

it doesn't take into account suicide attempts -- which is a far larger denominator than completed suicides.

[X_Digger]

176. True, but..

The answer to your original assertion: "Who's most likely to be killed by your gun"

would be: "Nobody."

There are roughly 15,000 suicides by gun each year, and roughly 300M guns in 90M owners' hands.

Assuming a one to one use to gun ratio, the odds of any gun being used in a suicide is five thousandths of one percent.

The odds of any gun owner committing suicide are two hundredths of one percent.

The odds of any gun being used in a homicide are one hundredth of one percent.

The odds of a gun owner killing anyone are four hundredths of one percent.

[mainer]

177. "Who's most likely to be killed by your gun" is still the correct phrase

I didn't ask "what's the likelihood that your gun will kill anyone at all?"

I asked "who is MOST LIKELY to be killed?" That question inherently implies that SOMEONE is killed.

Excuse me for being a schoolmarm about this! I just like being grammatically clear about things.

[X_Digger]

178. Sure, but that is taking the assertion as a given.

Which it really isn't.

[GreenStormCloud]

183. But you want to control MY gun, so that makes it personal for me.

My gun will not kill me. If the time ever comes that I decide to self-destruct, I will breath pure nitrogen, outside the house. Gone in minutes with no pain, no excess mess. (Bowels and bladder often relax upon any death. By being outside it keeps that mess outside.)

I am currently in moderately good health, but should incurable painful disease become my fate, I will choose death with dignity over extended suffering.

Until then, our guns serve to help us protect ourselves from those who would violently victimize us.

[mainer]

185. I don't care about you and your gun.

Because, as far as I know, I don't know you. And I have to assume you're a law-abiding citizen. If you want to kill yourself, it's your business.

I'm just saying that, as a mom, I worry about my son and his guns. About the days when he's depressed or feels like he's a failure. When that happens, I want him to have a day or two to think about it. I want him to take the time time to realize that life isn't so terrible after all. To understand that that argument he had with his wife is all forgiven, and that things will turn out all right.

I don't want him to impulsively unlock his gun cabinet, take out a weapon, and put a bullet in his brain.

I'm not saying that he will, or even that there's any indication he ever will. I just worry that it's too easy for him to do.

But that's just me, a mom, talking. It's also me, a medical person, who's seen the heartache left behind when someone commits suicide.

With gun ownership comes responsibility. Also with gun ownership comes the terrible potential of heartbreak and damaged survivors. I'm okay with you having your guns; I just wish I could keep them away from the people I love.

[GreenStormCloud]

192. But the laws you support regarding guns do effect me.

And guns do also save lives. My wife would have been murdered if she had not had her gun on her. She is alive now because she did have the gun, and the would be robber/killer fled when he saw that she was armed.

[mainer]

194. I don't support any new gun laws. When did I say that?

I'm talking on a personal level, about my own family.

[GreenStormCloud]

211. In general, a person who is against guns in their own family...

...will tend to vote for gun-control politicians.

[mainer]

213. I'm against motorcycles in my own family, too.

But wouldn't vote for a politician who tried to ban them.

[GreenStormCloud]

215. OK, I will withdraw the accusation that you support great gun control.

Since this is a political board, usually people support laws that go with what they are saying. Since you made anti-gun posts on a political discussion forum regarding guns, I concluded that you took a matching political stance.

[cowman]

160. Gee

I'm a white male over 40 and I have never been killed by my own gun. I dont give a shit what the NYT says.

[mainer]

161. The real tragedy of gun ownership is how often guns kill their owners

I'm not rabidly against gun ownership. My own son collects guns and knows how to safely store them.

My biggest fear is how easily a gun can be used to "solve" a fleeting emotional problem. Everyone gets depressed from time to time. Or has a fight with his wife. Or gets fired from his job. And there's that gun, so handy, so simple to use. It takes only an instant's impulse to end one's life.

For that reason, I'd much rather my son get rid of his guns. Sure, maybe there's a one in a million chance that he'll need it to defend himself or his family. But odds are far more likely that, if that gun kills anyone, it will be my son or someone close to him who gets the bullet.

[PavePusher]

163. Or rope, or cars (speed or exhaust)...

or household chemicals, or the medicine cabinet, or heights, or knives/razors, or electricity, or bodies of water, or alcohol, or busy highways/streets, or heavy machinery, or....

Seriously, are guns the only way to commit suicide?

[mainer]

164. No. But guns are the easiest and most effective.

Trying to kill yourself with a knife or an overdose is much harder.

Trust me. I've worked in E.R.'s and have seen every sort of suicide attempt come in the door. Most of the time, people have no idea how to kill themselves.

Guns just work really, really well.

And of all the suicides in our county over the past year, all were gunshot deaths.

[cowman]

167. And I

have been a Paramedic for appox 30 years now and I have seen many different ways people commit suicide. Yes a gun does make it easier but if someone is going to off themselves they will find a way

[Pavulon]

188. No massive overdose of tylenol and some wine

is much less messy and painless.

[mainer]

189. Massive dose of tylenol is treatable

as long as doctors can treat you within 8 hours with mucomyst.

A gunshot wound to the head? Um -- not so treatable.

[cowman]

195. This is true

but it will cause irreparable damage to your liver so in a way you are committing suicide, it just takes longer

[mainer]

197. the point of mucomyst is that it prevents liver damage

I've treated several patients who lived and were fine. (Although whether they went on to kill themselves later is anyone's guess.)

[cowman]

199. Ok I will

concede to the, I' assuming you are an RN which is way above my EMT-P., more medically educated than me. Thanks for that info

[Name removed]

200. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mainer]

201. You should've seen the guy who died from fireworks

now that was a holy mess.

Most deaths of young man, in my experience, result from a combination of stupidity and alcohol.

I'm not limiting my comments to guns, by the way. I also kicked and screamed when my son wanted to buy a motorcycle. I put motorcycles and guns in the same category -- um, other people can own them, but I'd rather not have my son riding on a donor-cycle, thank you.

[Pavulon]

202. I will only ride a motorcycle on a race track

all the traffic goes in the same direction and there are EMT's on standby. Firearms should be a personal choice for those of us who are legally eligible, however I have no problem with systems that more efficiently enforce existing laws preventing felons or others ineligible to own weapons from getting them.

I am all about making criminals pay for their choices.

[cowman]

204. I used to

ride a Suzuki RM125, we would go up behind Nellis Air Force Bas, lots of good trails there, we could even ride to Lake Mead without having to go on paved roads, but after a couple of accidents and 2 broken ribs, the wife said no more so I had to sell it. I sure do miss it though. Nowadays I just ride around on a 9hp go cart that we bought for our granddaughter

[cowman]

165. You can't

stop people from committing suicide. If they don't have a gun they will find another way. Your views on gun ownership is your right, my views are my right. I choose to own and carry a gun legally and I take that awesome responsibility very very seriously. We will disagree on the pros and cons of guns but thats what makes this country great is the ability to choose and have different opinions without fear of reprisals

[GreenStormCloud]

184. You are badly misinformed on your statistics.

First, it is a myth that normal people reach for violence in normal domestic disputes. Your son could just as easily grab a kitchen knife as a gun. Aren't you afraid he may do that? Does he have a history of beating his wife? Does he have a history of becoming violent? I am not insulting your son, but pointing out that peaceful people don't suddenly become agresssively violent. The idea of Mr. Happily Adjusted suddenly blowing up and killing people is a myth. In real life, it almost never happens. In real life, people who kill almost always have violent histories. Read Gavin DeBeck's excellent book, The Gift of Fear. It is a study of how to recoginize and avoid violent people, and how to know when they are dangerous. In EVERY case in which some one supposedly snaps there are always previous indicators that were ignored by those around the person.

Chances of him defending his family are a million to one? So you are saying that he can live for 1,000,000 years and need to defend himself or his family, maybe once? Really? Take a look at the FBI statistics. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/offenses/violent_crime/index.html "There were an estimated 454.5 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2008." That is a direct quote from the FBI page. So the chances are .4545% for each family member. With just him, his wife, and one child the chances become better than 1/100.

Or do you believe that guns are magical items that, like the Ring of Sauron, case evil spells upon those around them?

[mainer]

187. I don't worry about him being violent toward others. He's not.

As I pointed out above, it's suicide that's the most likely scenario for a gun death in males over the age of 40.

[GreenStormCloud]

191. Did you ignore the FBI statistics that I gave you?

I have to go now. I will be back tomorrow to discuss stastics further.

Cleopatra killed herself, and guns had not been invented back then. So did Judas. Suicide isn't that hard to accomplish. What is tricky is a near-suicide, in which a person doesn't really want to die, but wants to be rescued. I submit that such people will not use a gun, but will mostly use pills. I have seen both kinds. On gun suicide (successful) and several pill fake attempts that could have succeeded but didn't. If he ever gets GENUINELY suicidal, not having a gun won't stop him.

[mainer]

193. Right, it's so easy to get a basket of asps these days.

But I am going to concede that the risks of getting murdered are much higher than one in a million. I grant you that. (I was just throwing out a number when I said one in a million.)

As far as suicides go though, I refuse to concede that having a gun makes it far too easy, for men especially (who are the primary gun owners in the country.)

I just think that everyone who considers buying a gun -- especially if they live in a safe part of the country where crime rates are low -- should consider the downside of gun ownership. And the possibility that the gun you buy will take the life of someone you love, instead of a criminal's. It's not too much to ask, is it?

[LAGC]

205. That seems reasonable, but...

I question your assumption that guns will more likely be used to commit a crime than to prevent a crime. How many incidents of lawful brandishing of a gun alone have prevented a crime? How often is the attempted crime not even reported to police and don't end up in the statistics? Just food for thought here.

[GreenStormCloud]

206. I am not making that assumption. Sorry if it seemed that I were.

Most defensive gun uses are of the type you mentioned, and are not reported because there was no crime committed as the crime was prevented. I completely agree with you.

Often, in a debate I will appear to let a point slide so that I can focus on a different aspect.

[GreenStormCloud]

212. There a many extra factors to consider.

The FBI statistic that I posted is a raw statistic. It is the number one comes up with when one considers the entire nation, yet it is a number that fits few people as individuals.

It is true that a person is more likely to be murdered by someone that they know, but that is because the criminal world is kind of like a small town, everybody knows everybody else. Over 50% of murder victims are themselves criminals. Next are domestic dispute murders. But in those there is almost always a history of violence between the couple. A happy loving couple doesn't suddenly erupt in murder.

The many studies that claims that guns attract violence do not distinguish between legal and illegal gun owners. Illegally own guns, that is guns owned by criminals are very likely to result in harm.

Guns owned by law-abiding peaceful folks are very rarely a problem. There are about 80 million legal gun owners in the country. Almost all of the news crime/murder stories that you see will involve illegal guns.

[GeorgeGist]

179. The silence

of the cheering is deafening.