Question about Article II Section II of the Constitution

[safeinOhio]

"The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."

What does this mean in regards to the Second Amendment? I know the experts here always use other documents to show what the Framers really meant by the word "militia". Does this mean the President may call into duty all males of a certain age and command them as a private in the army as to the use of their weapons? Does this actual writing in the Constitution give any meaning at all to the concept of militia? Is the term used any where else in the Constitution? I really don't know and after reading it, I have to question this section.

Could this affect the current independent State Militias as now formed?



:popcorn:

[Bold Lib]

1. If I understand your question, yes. The un-organized militia

IS subject to be called up and report for duty when needed. AND, when or if they are called up they need to report with weapons and gear (inclusively called "arms") like those the regular army uses - that is what "regulated" means.

You also see "militia" in Article 1 Section 8:

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

[MineralMan]

2. Hey, why not.

President Obama could call up all the "independent" militias and send them to Thule, Greenland to guard something or another. I like the idea. A new use for that Article and Section. Yes, indeed. I can see the letter now:


Greetings, Militia Member:

As President of The United States, I want to thank you for volunteering to part of your state militia. By the power granted to me by Article II, Section II of the Constitution of The United States, I hereby call you to duty. You will report within 10 days to any military installation for transport to your duty station in Thule, Greenland, where you will assume guard duty over valuable United States property.

I understand that you have your own arms. Please bring them with you when you report. They will be inspected and, if found in operable condition, will accompany you to your duty post.

Again, let me thank you for your patriotism and willingness to serve your country in this way.

Sincerely yours,

President Barack Obama

[Statistical]

5. Read again. The President has no authority to call up state militias.

[MineralMan]

24. Ah, it appears that you do not see the humor in my post.

Who'd have thunk it?

[USA_1]

29. TITLE 10 > Subtitle E > PART II > CHAPTER 1211 > § 12406

§ 12406. National Guard in Federal service: call

Whenever—

(1) the United States, or any of the Commonwealths or possessions, is invaded or is in danger of invasion by a foreign nation;

(2) there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States; or

(3) the President is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States;
the President may call into Federal service members and units of the National Guard of any State in such numbers as he considers necessary to repel the invasion, suppress the rebellion, or execute those laws. Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors of the States or, in the case of the District of Columbia, through the commanding general of the National Guard of the District of Columbia.



Therefore, the president can call up the national guard.

[Statistical]

30. The questions wasn't about the national guard it was about the "unorganized militia". n/t

[TheWraith]

34. Don't confuse the constitutional militia with people who call themselves "militias."

A group of guys in the woods who call themselves a "militia" have no legal or constitutional standing. The militias of the United States are the National Guard, and in a greater than usual emergency all able bodied males age 18 to 45 and such others as included by law. (Some states include women, for instance.)

[AtheistCrusader]

37. The clue is who they will and will not report for duty for.

If the 'militia' folks in Washington State received a letter from Democratic Governor Christine Gregiore, with orders to come sandbag the tolt or snoqualmie rivers, do you think they would respond?

If not, they aren't a 'militia' by any stretch of the term. Just guys playing army in the woods with playskool canteens and whatever.

[one-eyed fat man]

36. a little history lesson

Back during the draft, and before the military changed from using service numbers to using the SSAN, the difference between the Regular Army, mobilized members of the unorganized Federal militia and members of the National Guard and Reserve was clearly identified on dogtags and ID cards.

It is that Federal militia bit that is the underpinning of the Selective Service, aka, the draft, and the fact that it applies to able bodied males is why your son STILL has to register when you daughter does not. So yes, the machinery is in place for the President to reinstate the draft. always has been.
10 USC Sec. 311

But members of the Regular Army had the prefix RA on their service numbers and their ID cards identified them as Regular Army. Draftees had the service numbers prefix US and their ID cards listed them as members of the Army of the United States or AUS on the DD Form 2A. National Guard were identified by NG while Reservists were ER.

With the ending of the draft in 1973, and the military becoming an all-volunteer force, all are either Regulars or reservists.

State militias purely under state control can still exist, but the National Guard is a Federal militia. Was intentionally established that way by the Dick Act in 1903 based on the shortcomings of troops the states sent to the Spanish-American War.

Several governors had tried in the past to prevent National Guard units from being activated or deployed. Earliest one I recall was Wisconsin tried to prevent the call up of the 32nd Infantry during the Berlin Crisis. The Federal courts have consistently ruled against every governor from then till now.

Title 32 which covers the National Guard notes that states may still organize a force that is not subject to Federal service, as note in Article II Section 2, but that members of the Army and the National Guard are not permitted to be part of that force.

(a) In time of peace, a State or Territory, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the District of Columbia may maintain no troops other than those of its National Guard and defense forces authorized by subsection (c).

(b) Nothing in this title limits the right of a State or Territory, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the District of Columbia to use its National Guard or its defense forces authorized by subsection (c) within its borders in time of peace, or prevents it from organizing and maintaining police or constabulary.

(c) In addition to its National Guard, if any, a State or Territory, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the District of Columbia may, as provided by its laws, organize and maintain defense forces. A defense force established under this section may be used within the jurisdiction concerned, as its chief executive (or commanding general in the case of the District of Columbia) considers necessary, but it may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces.

(d) A member of a defense force established under subsection (c) is not, because of that membership, exempt from service in the armed forces, nor is he entitled to pay, allowances, subsistence, transportation, or medical care or treatment, from funds of the United States. (e) A person may not become a member of a defense force established under subsection (c) if he is a member of a reserve component of the armed forces.

Read more: http://vlex.com/vid/sec-maintenance-other-troops-19222012#ixzz0hbeOZiuE

Short answer, yes you could really get that letter ordering you to "walk your post from flank to flank and take no shit from any rank."

[booley]

3. I guess it also depends on how Art 1, sec 8 is interpreted

One of the powers of Congress is too..

"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

That all sounds more like the National Guard then what people think of as militias today.

Of course I am not a lawyer. This is just my educated opinion.

However I do know that one of the important methods for interpreting the Constitution is "Al Inclusio" (sp?), in other words every part is considered important and relevant.

[Bold Lib]

9. I know a lot of people like to claim that the National Guard is the militia but in

reality they are only part of the militia. The N.G. is the "organized" militia but there is also the "un-organized" militia that the constitution fully recognizes. These are the people that keep their arms at home and show up for duty when called. They need to have military style weapons and gear also. If fact, Heller mentions as much.

The way I interpret that section is that every male that hits 18 should receive a tax payer funded M-4, complete with full load out. Every member of the un-organized militia should also receive 1000 rounds of ammo each year to practice with. But that's my opinion.

[paulsby]

20. we'd be like switzerland

that crime ridden cesspool!

[PavePusher]

26. I like the way you think. n/t

[TheWraith]

35. Just like Switzerland.

Given that they spend 1% of their GDP on their military, I don't think that's such a bad idea. Fund that, fund the Air Force, and use the rest of the money saved from the Pentagon to clean up our inner cities and build our economy.

[Statistical]

4. The President is in command of all armed forced but the President can not call up the state militias

There is nothing in there that indicates the President has the authority to call up the State militias he can only command them once called up.

The President could call for assistance and the Governor of VA for example could say "pack sand".
The President is not in command of state militias until "called into the actual service of the United States".

Of course you can put the popcorn away.
Heller v DC established as law that the 2nd amendment is an individual right unconnected with service in the militia.

[booley]

8. of course that begs the question

"....Heller v DC established as law that the 2nd amendment is an individual right unconnected with service in the militia."

But then one is left to wonder why the 2nd amendment starts off with "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,...." if it has nothing to do with militias.

However, yes, the current SCOTUS has so ruled that the 2nd amendment's right to bear arms is unconnected to the militias mentioned in the 2nd amendment or elsewhere in the constitution. On that I will agree. They seemed to have broken with precedent to do so but they did so. And a future court may break with that precedent and undo that interpretation.

[X_Digger]

10. Do we really need to go over this again??

"Because X, Y restriction on government is imposed."

Y is independent of X, protecting X is why there is a Y, but it doesn't mean the only use of Y is for purpose X.

"I'm completely out of soda, I'm going to the grocery store." -- do stores only sell soda?

"Pizza being necessary for late night study sessions, the right of the people to cultivate tomatoes will not be infringed." -- are tomatoes only for pizza?

[AtheistCrusader]

38. A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people

to keep and read books shall not be infringed.

[Statistical]

11. You could read the decision.

Lots of historical context that indicates the right to keep and bear arms is not limited ONLY to military service.

[safeinOhio]

14. Not so fast, the butter is still warm

This court at this time.
Using Article one, Congress may call up the state militia and the Pres is to command them. I don't think there are any SCOUS rulings on that clear language yet. If the congress were to call up the local militias and send them to Greenland, the court might have to rule again.
The court is free to disregard the constitution at certain times, as in the 2000 elections when they took away what was constitutionally a state matter. It looks to me as the court only uses the constitution for supporting the whims of its' friends at the time. Therefore, if paranoid militia groups, at some time in the future, attack anyone, the court will most likely change Heller. My point being the abuse of the Second by some may spoil the rights of the sane at a future date, making private unregulated armies the real enemy of the Second Amendment.

[Statistical]

17. Actions of a "militia group" has nothing to do with Heller v. DC or the 2A.

1) Just because a bunch of wackjobs in Montana call themselves a "militia" doesn't mean they are part of the irregular militia under the law. I could call myself the President of the United states however that declaration has no meaning.

2) Heller clearly defind that the 2A protects an individual right. Not the right of a militia to bear arms but the right of individuals to bear arms.

[sharesunited]

23. A nation of, by and for gun worshippers. THAT's what your Heller says we are.

[TPaine7]

31. You need to make a sincere attemp to understand the history

behind Heller.

It was not the departure from history you and many others think it is. I sketch out a tiny portion of the history and evidence here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x300206#300331

You might not like Heller, but your criticisms and arguments can only be stronger if you know the facts.

[sharesunited]

32. No, the relevancy of Heller is the relevancy of cave drawings. So sorry.

And Scalia and Thomas gave you that shit. You need to question it for that reason alone!

[TPaine7]

33. That is sorry, but not in the way you think. n/t

[Bold Lib]

42. And if Scalia and Thomas said that 2 + 2 = 4 would you "question it for that reason alone!"

Reminds me of the old adage that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[GreenStormCloud]

27. Actually, they don't call themselves militias.

They call themselves "Associations of Militia Members". Each person is a member of the unorganized militia, as already noted. They are Associations of Militia Members who are dedicated to keeping alive the skills a militia needs.

They are still whackjobs. If I wanted to do that (And were young enough) I would join the National Guard and get paid for my weekends, and be able to train with real military weapons.

[onehandle]

6. Send them all to the Middle East.

Hit them there before they hit us here.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

25. Well, something's showing, anyhow...

True colors, perhaps.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

7. Yes the president may call up the militia..

but you need to check the Dick Act of 1903 for the up to date calling forth of the organized and unorganized militias. Different conditions apply.

What this means in regard to the second amendment? Nothing. Nice try, though.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Testing my memory

The Governor of the state supplying the militia must consent, yes?

[jody]

12. "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress

Insurrections and repel Invasions;" Article I. Section 8, Clause 15.

10 USC § 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Presidential authority to activate the "unorganized militia" is limited to that granted by congress.

[jody]

13. Which specific "current independent State Militias as now formed" do you mean? n/t

[safeinOhio]

15. The semi-organized current groups calling

themselves "militias". Is there any wording to separate the 2 groups in times of a call-up?

[Statistical]

18. A group calling themselves a "militia" doesn't make them an State militia under the law.

It has no more legal authority them me calling myself King Statistical and all you my subjects.

Similarly a deranged man who buys a badge online and calls himself a Police Office doesn't gain legal Police Authority simply by that declaration.

[jody]

19. Each state has an "unorganized militia" defined by state law and under the command of the governor.

State laws authorize a governor to call up the unorganized militia under specific conditions.

Note the "unorganized militia" might be males ages 17-45 in most states but could be all people ages 17-64 as in Louisiana.

Just because a group calls itself a militia or someone opposing a particular group calls it a militia does not make it an "unorganized militia" IAW a state's laws.

[safeinOhio]

21. So, only those in the semi-organized

militias that are between 17-45 may be called up, leaving the old farts behind? Is there any wording on selection of that group that may be called up? Is it up to the President, Congress or the States to choose which members are to be put into service?
Hey, crazy stuff is going on. The government has many tools to put down an insurrection and this could serve as one.

[jody]

22. Not "semi-organized" but "unorganized". As I said each state has it's own laws and congress has not

fulfilled its duties required by our Constitution "To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the {unorganized} Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the {unorganized} Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

You might wish to browse State Guard Association of the United States (SGAUS) that has links to most state sites of "unorganized militia" called different names.

For example,
BG(OH). Charles S. Rowell
Commanding General
Ohio Military Reserve
1000 Lawrence Road
Camp Perry Training Site
Port Clinton, Ohio 43452-9578

Rear Admiral (OH). David E. Ozvat
Commandant
Ohio Naval Militia
1000 LAWRENCE ROAD
BLDG 1, ATTN: ONM
PORT CLINTON, OH 43452-9578

[AtheistCrusader]

40. It is sexist and ageist. We can fix that.

I know a couple 50 year olds I wouldn't screw with. They can probably outrun me too.

[one-eyed fat man]

41. see #36 up-thread

All the relevant portions of Title 10 and Title 32 of the US Code are quoted.

Yes, the short answer is that 1792 militia statutes are the underpinnings of Selective Service and the reason your SON has to register and your daughter doesn't.

Additionally, if you are prior service military, your militia obligation extends to age 60. You can be recalled, unlike your draft-dodging hippie ex brother-in-law who never served. And if you are a military retiree, you are on the hook for life. Many retirees were issued "hip pocket" orders assigning them to units upon mobilization when they retired. Like many retired tankers, I still have copies of the orders I received recalling me to active duty for Desert Shield/Storm.